View Full Version : No tailsuit at Blackpool?
vcolfari
07-05-2007, 01:20 AM
I was watching a video of this year's Blackpool Amateur Rising Star and noticed (in Round 3, I believe) a competitor with a tailored suit (no tails) and straight black tie. I was surprised to see this and wondered if the costume rules had changed. Did anyone else notice this? Is this a new trend in Standard and will we see more of this in the future?
I was watching a video of this year's Blackpool Amateur Rising Star and noticed (in Round 3, I believe) a competitor with a tailored suit (no tails) and straight black tie. I was surprised to see this and wondered if the costume rules had changed. Did anyone else notice this? Is this a new trend in Standard and will we see more of this in the future?
The 'no tails' thing ran through here for a couple of years. Lots of competitors stopped wearing tails and had basic suits with normal ties. I didn't like the look as it took 'something' special away, never mind not being able to see the subtleties of movement, etc. It died its natural death and the tails returned although to the dismay of those poor males who have to endure wearing them. But they should rest assured that they do look very handsome in them.
As for the competitor at Blackpool, I don't know if the rules have changed but I wouldn't be surprised to find that they hadn't and he took a punt :shock:, that the adjudicators didn't like it (and he was told this :oops:) and that he gets back into tails asap.
tangotime
07-05-2007, 03:54 AM
Most of you are are of an age, when many 1,2, and 3, dance Novice and non championship comps , where lounge suits were mandatory , in the u.k.
( still is in most cases )
I personally like the logic of the rule- Not having to be invest heavily in tails and ball gowns ( though many did make their own ) .
In todays world, ballgowns and tails, are donned at the drop of a hat ( i even judged an Amer. style comp. many yrs ago, when one of the male competitors took the floor in a tail suit for a bronze Amer. style waltz )
And of course, the same can be stated for Latin .
I suspect a tailsuit costs very little more than a properly-tailored "lounge suit" so the cost argument is specious.
cantskiforlife
07-05-2007, 06:32 AM
For many competitors, the costs of the outfits is over the top. However, if you do decide to compete seriously, the outfits are a must.
I am now deciding if I should get a smooth outfit and use it for both smooth and standard, or if I should get both a smooth outfit and tails. Obviously the cost of the second choice is a much higher cost (more than I can actually afford on my own). So I am naturally torn. What are peoples thoughts?
What's wrong with getting tails and wearing a vest on top of the trousers for Smooth?
cantskiforlife
07-05-2007, 06:45 AM
Nothing wrong with it. I have worn a vest for 2 years now, I don't like the look or how the shirts look in conjunction with the vest. The Jackets give a much cleaner look.
cantskiforlife
07-05-2007, 06:46 AM
I suspect a tailsuit costs very little more than a properly-tailored "lounge suit" so the cost argument is specious.
My guess on cost is anywhere between $1500 and $2500 depending on who you go to.
tangotime
07-05-2007, 07:01 AM
Joe , I dont know where you are shopping ?-- tails and lounge-- same price ?
More importantly, I can wear my suit to the mall, a club etc .
Chris Stratton
07-05-2007, 08:32 AM
Joe , I dont know where you are shopping ?-- tails and lounge-- same price ?
More importantly, I can wear my suit to the mall, a club etc .
Not a suit that's remotely suitable for dancing. The shoulders have to be cut differently to permit anything approaching a modern dance hold. And the price of a jacket made that way is going to be something like 2/3 the price of a tailsuit of comparable quality. It's really not worth the investment unless you go to black tie dance socials.
The other problem: the lounge suit jacket (or whatever you want to call it) is actually subsantially longer than a tailcoat in front, and as a result confines the body more. Doesn't matter how small the guys hips are relative to his shoulders, a jacket of that length is not going to permit full dance movement without wrinkling. Even on the best dancers, you see a nice big wrinkle across the small of the back in the more presented positions. The tailsuit is really a much more forgiving cut.
I suspect a tailsuit costs very little more than a properly-tailored "lounge suit" so the cost argument is specious.
Joe - Agree absolutely. Emphasis on "properly-tailored".
Chris - right on.
samina
07-05-2007, 03:28 PM
Not a suit that's remotely suitable for dancing. The shoulders have to be cut differently to permit anything approaching a modern dance hold. And the price of a jacket made that way is going to be something like 2/3 the price of a tailsuit of comparable quality. It's really not worth the investment unless you go to black tie dance socials.
The other problem: the lounge suit jacket (or whatever you want to call it) is actually subsantially longer than a tailcoat in front, and as a result confines the body more. Doesn't matter how small the guys hips are relative to his shoulders, a jacket of that length is not going to permit full dance movement without wrinkling. Even on the best dancers, you see a nice big wrinkle across the small of the back in the more presented positions. The tailsuit is really a much more forgiving cut.
very enlightening. thanks for that detail...
I am now deciding if I should get a smooth outfit and use it for both smooth and standard, or if I should get both a smooth outfit and tails. Obviously the cost of the second choice is a much higher cost (more than I can actually afford on my own). So I am naturally torn. What are peoples thoughts?
A third choice, not as trendy today, but - get a tailsuit and be properly dressed for standard and why not for smooth? I started this way, and even though the smooth 'trend' has gone as far as sloppy sleeveless vests made to look like jackets (mostly seen on pros doing pro/am), I still think tails in smooth have merit.
And yes, I still will wear my tails in smooth when standard and smooth rounds are intermixed.
What's wrong with getting tails and wearing a vest on top of the trousers for Smooth?
An excellent choice and I may now need to ask Aleksandr for a vest!
I don't like the look or how the shirts look in conjunction with the vest. The Jackets give a much cleaner look.
You are wise to be aware of the look - after you've sweaty (not standing in front of a mirror at home!). The size difference in relation to the arm hole, as well as the individual's arm.
Some shirts sleeves just don't work.
My guess on cost is anywhere between $1500 and $2500 depending on who you go to.
You can get the best material, hand-tailored, in-person-multiple-fittings from the best names for under $2k.
tailsuits and smooth tux suits
Kitty
07-05-2007, 04:16 PM
My guess on cost is anywhere between $1500 and $2500 depending on who you go to.
it can be cheaper. Some brands (not the top top brands, but decent for a ballroom costume) might be able to make both within this budget ($1200 - $1500)
For many competitors, the costs of the outfits is over the top. However, if you do decide to compete seriously, the outfits are a must.
Dance outfits cost a lot of money, true, but if you are competing at a high level, like the Rising Star in Blackpool, then the 'look' is a definite must.
The adjudicators look at the overall package so grooming and outfits can make or break you. If you are going to spend money, make sure you get it right. :)
Not a suit that's remotely suitable for dancing. The shoulders have to be cut differently to permit anything approaching a modern dance hold. And the price of a jacket made that way is going to be something like 2/3 the price of a tailsuit of comparable quality. It's really not worth the investment unless you go to black tie dance socials.
The other problem: the lounge suit jacket (or whatever you want to call it) is actually subsantially longer than a tailcoat in front, and as a result confines the body more. Doesn't matter how small the guys hips are relative to his shoulders, a jacket of that length is not going to permit full dance movement without wrinkling. Even on the best dancers, you see a nice big wrinkle across the small of the back in the more presented positions. The tailsuit is really a much more forgiving cut.
I totally agree and would add that, in high level competition, every nuance of movement is judged, which is difficult when a lounge suit jacket is worn. Your true body line is hidden. The tailsuit is such a better look, especially with the lady in a ballgown. And results 'can' come down to grooming in a very tough field.
Rugby
07-05-2007, 09:49 PM
Sorry men but no sympathy over having to buy tailsuits. Once you purchase a tailsuit your investment is done. A man can buy a good quality tailsuit and wear it forever, (my father was buried in his) but a women usually has to pay more for a ballgown and replace it fairly often. One thing I don't agree on is men wearing just a vest when women are wearing ballgowns, it seems to be less respectful to the women. Women have to go through such an effort with makeup, hair, nails, jewelry, ballgown and high heels, so for goodness sakes its the least the man can do on his end to wear tails. If men are going to dress down then maybe women should too. How about throwing on a pair of practice shoes rather than heels, or just a nice little skirt and top. Either both parties go all the way to make the effort or neither.
cantskiforlife
07-05-2007, 09:53 PM
Sigh - blackpool - a LONG way off...... not even on the radar.
Of course tailsuits, etc... are definitely on the radar. However, I don't think I would ever wear a standard outfit for smooth. From what I understand, the shoulder designs are quite different based on the differences of motion.
NielsenE
07-05-2007, 09:56 PM
agreed. Tail suit shoulder construction, even most tuxedo jacket shoulder construction is too constrictive for smooth. You basically have to give up all elevated arm lines. Well constructed jackets can work, but it tends to sacrifice the perfect look in closed as the length of the sleeves gets tweaked
contracheck
07-05-2007, 11:04 PM
An excellent choice and I may now need to ask Aleksandr for a vest!
Come with me to Manhattan tomorrow. I am going to see him for a tailsuit and a smooth suit. Decision on smoothsuit is difficult becuse, unlike tail suit, smooth suits seem to vary a lot. I am going to ask him the smooth suit just like the one Dovolani wore in DWTS (4th season). Do other people have preferences?
contracheck
07-05-2007, 11:08 PM
You can get the best material, hand-tailored, in-person-multiple-fittings from the best names for under $2k.
tailsuits and smooth tux suits
What's the best matrial to you? Superfine 150? Wool garbadine? Satin wool? Do you like plain balck or harring bone? Your opinion will be appreciated.
Hmmmm . . . there's more to it . . . not all tailors know smooth and I suspect that may be leading to some of these problems. A good tailor who really knows Standard and Smooth will do wonders for a made-for-smooth jacket. Constructed on many of the same principles as a tailsuit, with a few specifics as I see them:
a) Pull-downs in front, similar to tailsuit construction, pull the shoulders down
b) Tailored-for-you-and-you-alone arm socketing does not break the flat shoulder top when the arm (sleeve) moves up (see pics with raised arms)
c) Draped back - so when in closed hold, the back has the smoothed appearance of a standard-only-tailsuit - and when your arms relax (downward), the drape forgives and you don't have the bunching/uncomfortableness of a standard-only tailsuit.
And its not the tailors fault if a dancer allows his arm movement to do some funky things ;) . . . like breaking the plane of the back or going out of 'closed' arm position (whenever checking if I have a good arm position or not, Toni compares it to a standard closed arm hold even if the lady is not 'there').
Come with me to Manhattan tomorrow. I am going to see him for a tailsuit and a smooth suit. Decision on smoothsuit is difficult becuse, unlike tail suit, smooth suits seem to vary a lot. I am going to ask him the smooth suit just like the one Dovolani wore in DWTS (4th season). Do other people have preferences?
Hi contracheck,
Good to hear!! I kind of suspected this might be the case after we discussed him some time back.
I'll have to wait until he gets back home to see him - we're not doing Manhattan this year.:(
Chris Stratton
07-05-2007, 11:18 PM
And its not the tailors fault if a dancer allows his arm movement to do some funky things ;) . . . like breaking the plane of the back or going out of 'closed' arm position (whenever checking if I have a good arm position or not, Toni compares it to a standard closed arm hold even if the lady is not 'there').
Interesting... I can remember being rather dissapointed by a widespread lack of concern for that...
Incidentally, while tailsuits do cost less per wearing than ballgowns, they do wear out where they contact the gown, especially when it's covered with cut glass.
What's the best matrial to you? Superfine 150? Wool garbadine? Satin wool? Do you like plain balck or harring bone? Your opinion will be appreciated.
I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of the material. Give my name to Aleksandr and ask him for the name of the material.
After my first smooth suit from Aleksandr, we moved to a high grade material with a subdued, faint 'pin-stripe' effect to it for another smooth and standard from the same material (mix 'n match!).
contracheck
07-05-2007, 11:44 PM
I suspect a tailsuit costs very little more than a properly-tailored "lounge suit" so the cost argument is specious.
What is a "lounge suit?" Is this the kind of suit Abe Lincoln used to wear (the coat comes almost to the knees)? I see Jonathan Wilkins and Giempiero sometimes wear such jackets. Do you like such jackets? I also see some dancers wear Nehru suit. Do you have an opinion about it?
contracheck
07-05-2007, 11:47 PM
Hi contracheck,
Good to hear!! I kind of suspected this might be the case after we discussed him some time back.
I'll have to wait until he gets back home to see him - we're not doing Manhattan this year.:(
Yes, this encounter is the result of a commnication from you. I've also learned that he makes suits for one of my idol dancers. Things usually don't go wrong if I follow this idol beause he is an impeccable perfectionist. You are lucky to be near him. I do not know how to handle fittings. Perhaps I have to wait a yr till next Manhattan.
Chris Stratton
07-05-2007, 11:47 PM
A lounge suit is basically a business suit / blazer / tuxedo type of cut.
The to-the-knees all around cut is called a frock coat. Our full dress tailsuits inherit from the cutaway, which is a modification of the frock coat that cuts the skirts shorter in front, probably so that you can ride a horse more easily.
contracheck
07-06-2007, 12:01 AM
A lounge suit is basically a business suit / blazer / tuxedo type of cut.
The to-the-knees all around cut is called a frock coat. Our full dress tailsuits inherit from the cutaway, which is a modification of the frock coat that cuts the skirts shorter in front, probably so that you can ride a horse more easily.
Yes, yes. I have a replica of Major General George Custer's frock coat with two rows of gold buttons. I use it in reenactments to show a young dashing Yankee cavarly officer. My question is how do you like such a coat for dancing. Some prominent dancers use it. I am all ears.
contracheck
07-06-2007, 12:06 AM
I'm sorry, I don't remember the name of the material. Give my name to Aleksandr and ask him for the name of the material.
After my first smooth suit from Aleksandr, we moved to a high grade material with a subdued, faint 'pin-stripe' effect to it for another smooth and standard from the same material (mix 'n match!).
How does your smooth suit look like? Does it look like regular 2-button tuxdedo? My perfectionist friend's tailsuit is made of wool satin. Anyone has any opinion on wool satin? Does it drape well?
How does your smooth suit look like? Does it look like regular 2-button tuxdedo? My perfectionist friend's tailsuit is made of wool satin. Anyone has any opinion on wool satin? Does it drape well?
double-breasted 3 button
piping, no pocket flaps
straight, no cut in back
very conservative/traditional
tbrennen
07-06-2007, 02:35 AM
Also, when looking for the right material for your tails or smooth suit, for goodness sake, get a material that hangs out and "dewrinkles" quickly. Traveling across the country or ocean can result in the suit being in a suitcase for hours and hours or, worse, days. You can minimize this with good packing practices but a great wool or wool blend is essential. I also always carry a steamer but don't like to use it since it can degrade the interfacing (and maybe the fabric itself?).
I used to do smooth (many years ago) in a tailsuit and had no problems with over-the-head arm actions. David Hamilton had gussets put in under his arms but he was a special case given his sheer volume of action.
Lastly, I like a black shirt/black vest combo and think it looks pretty elegant. Certainly dashing if not formal (well, on me anyway :D).
A lightweight wool is where it's at for draping and dewrinkling as it hangs.
The black shirt+vest combo is good, but one definitely needs to invest in either a tailored shirt, or at least a fitted shirt. A regular cut shirt will have sleeves that are too poufy in the armscye area, which is not a good look. The slimmer the sleeve, the better. The vest also needs to be fitted, not adjustmentable, and have smaller armscyes than a dress vest.
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