social etiquette question

[noobster]

Let's say you go out to a salsa club by yourself, and there are very few reasonably experienced dancers there, and you find one leader you have a pretty good connection with.

If you dance with that same guy most of the night, and you make a little conversation in the breaks, is that necessarily an indication of interest in something more?

I guess what I'm saying is, if I am not interested in the guy other than as a dance buddy, am I being misleading by hanging around with him all night just because he is an awesome flirty dancer with good floorcraft and a nice smooth lead (and because I miss chatting in Spanish)?

[FatBaldGuy60]

As a guy, yes, he may be getting the wrong message. He does not know that you were dancing with him all night because he is a good dancer. As far as he knows you have a choice, and it has been him.

That is, unless you said something specifically about why you were dancing with him, and to be honest, a guy still might interpret that as a way to subtly say you like him. Us men are not too bright at times.

FBG

[quixotedlm]

Ditto FatBaldGuy.

The truth is that however much it might be fun to dance with someone, it gets old after 5 dances on the same night. After that, the dance chemistry is still there, but the tiresomeness of it is only alleviated by personal chemistry.

The 5 number might change for each individual - the threshold might be 2 for some and 10 for others... the point is that if you willingly go to dance with the same guy on a given social, then you are sending unambiguous signals to him that you like him. It's not different from just asking someone to be your lunch buddy at school or a conversation with someone elsewhere - if you show incessant attention to someone because you have a great lunch/conversation connection with that person, you are telling them that you like them enough to go back again and again, and there might be something more to it. It's an open invitation.

I don't think this is true for just guys interpreting someones interest in them as romantic. It goes both ways. If your genders were reversed, you'd still be sending a message that you 'like' _her_.

[delamusica]

Yeah . . . I wouldn't ever dance with the same guy all night unless I was interested in him, no matter how good he is . . .

Especially since I go to the clubs by myself, it's just not worth it to risk sending the wrong message.

[noobster]

Aw, darnit. I figured. Sigh. I guess I will have to try and tone it down. Too bad. :(

The truth is that however much it might be fun to dance with someone, it gets old after 5 dances on the same night. After that, the dance chemistry is still there, but the tiresomeness of it is only alleviated by personal chemistry.
Normally I would agree with this, but if the options are to dance with the one really nice smooth musical lead in the place or to take your chances being dragged around by various aggressive beat-less leaders all night...

I don't think this is true for just guys interpreting someones interest in them as romantic. It goes both ways. If your genders were reversed, you'd still be sending a message that you 'like' _her_.
I know, I wasn't trying to frame it as a guy-girl thing. It's just that dance etiquette is a little different than regular social etiquette (most non-social-dancers would consider it somewhere between uncomfortable and shocking to dance closely with strangers), so I was hoping I might have got away with it.

[witchphd]

You might be able to get away with multiple dances in one evening. However, you added this:

and you make a little conversation in the breaks,


That's certainly not helping.

[kayak]

Are you the one good follower in the scene as well?

[salsera_alemana]

Noobster,

I would say it depends. I am not a guy but I can tell you about my experience. I have done it and I loved it. It depends on the guy.

I feel for you because it is great to be able to dance with a great lead all night!

When I was single I did it every now and then when I had an opportunity and it was absolutely no problem. I had some of the best evenings that way with some of the best dancers (who were mostly Latino guys). They were gentlemen and also had only dancing on their agenda. I am talking about guys I did not know and who were not in my regular scene. But I guess I did not send them the wrong signals and so we all just had a great dance night!

Many years ago Ione of the above mentioned guys asked me to dance at a Larry Harlow concert and then danced with me all night. It was absolutely delightful for me. He was well dressed, smelled good, was a great dancer and a gentleman, just the way I loved it! So we both had a great evening and we only danced, did not even talk much.

A couple of months after that I went to an Oscar d'Leon concert and he was there, too. I only greeted him and then went with my girlfriend to find a table. I was so happy when he came over and asked me to dance when the concert started and danced with me all night! And it was a long concert! Oscar went on and on! We danced until we dropped! For both of us it was great fun!

So it all depends...

Just do not send the wrong signals if you do not know your lead in question pretty well. And I would say stay away from the chatting, at least in the beginning, so he does not get a wrong impression.

[gte692h]

Yes, it could be, but it is not your problem. Leave it to him to figure that part out. Its ironic, but someone did exactly this to me, while I was visiting a new salsa town this weekend. She was new to the scene as I was, and just stoked me all night so that she got her dances.

In my case, I saw it coming, and I didn't mind dancing with her either way. its no big deal. a guy should know when a girl is genuinely into him, versus when she's pulling something.. you just do what you gotta do noob. he'll learn

[sweavo]

Us guys are sooooo used to discovering that she wasn't interested in THAT way... I wouldn't feel guilty about it.

[Shooshoo]

I guess what I'm saying is, if I am not interested in the guy other than as a dance buddy, am I being misleading by hanging around with him all night just because he is an awesome flirty dancer with good floorcraft and a nice smooth lead (and because I miss chatting in Spanish)?

By hanging around with him all night shouldn't mean that you're leading him and I'm sure you could sense his type of interest. Just be clear if he tries to make a move and explain your position.

[Bailando]

I agree. I wouldn't worry about leading him on. You have found a new dance buddy in your new scene and I don't think there's anything wrong with having a few friendly chats and dancing many times with him in one night.

If you're sensing that he is interested in being more than friends, you could deal with this later.

I became quite friendly with a number of my dance buddies through repeated dances and friendly chats in between songs. Once you're friendly with him, he may introduce you to other good dancers. It's a good way to meet people.

[tj]

(Whoops, case of mistaken identity, nvm...)

[fascination]

Let's say you go out to a salsa club by yourself, and there are very few reasonably experienced dancers there, and you find one leader you have a pretty good connection with.

If you dance with that same guy most of the night, and you make a little conversation in the breaks, is that necessarily an indication of interest in something more?

I guess what I'm saying is, if I am not interested in the guy other than as a dance buddy, am I being misleading by hanging around with him all night just because he is an awesome flirty dancer with good floorcraft and a nice smooth lead (and because I miss chatting in Spanish)?my gut feeling on this (admittedly know nothing about the salsa scene) is that if you are wondering it is b/c you are concerned that the person might be misconstruing your motives and you don't want to be misleading....therefore, I would find a way to make myself clear so as to avoid what you fear....but, that is only one way of handling it...not neccessarily the best way for you

[Sabor]

guys usually wont know whats up in your head and how u think of things untill u spell it out for them like a 5-year old..

all u need to do is tell him nicely how it is and then dance away.. that is ofcourse, unless u really want it to be more subconciously.. hmm

[GTO Bruin]

guys usually wont know whats up in your head and how u think of things untill u spell it out for them like a 5-year old..


True. A favorite motto among my fraternity brothers was, "All women want me....until proven otherwise." Unfortunately, getting proven wrong repeatedly makes this motto more about bravado than conquest.

On the dance floor, discerning romantic interest can be complicated. As dancers, we communicate with our own language, one that is flirty and sexy. Furthermore, it's an intimate, one-on-one discussion (ok...rueda's more of a group exchange). And when the connection is strong, it's like being totally in tune with the other. Given all that, it would be easy to mistake an enthusiastic partner for something more. Particularly if he/she gave you multiple....dances.:nope:

On the other hand, as others have said, as long as you're not giving mixed signals, just be yourself, and let the guy figure it out. Even if there is no chance for a future, part of the enjoyment is living the illusion for just a song. If it looks like it's going beyond the dance floor, then deal with it quickly.

[samina]

i echo fasc & sabor... just be casually clear & then no worries...

[GTO Bruin]

i echo fasc & sabor... just be casually clear & then no worries...

Unless the guy has given an indication that he's interested, I think it would be presumptious to say anything too directly. It would be disturbing to me if someone that I've just been casual with felt the need to set the record straight without cause. It would make me question my actions and leave me wondering if I'd done anything that could have been taken the wrong way. Or it may make me think that she thinks awfully well of herself.

[samina]

yah, but it doesn't take much to convey one's interest or lack thereof... just a one-liner comment & the behaviour to back it up... no need to make a big deal out of it. there's no presumption or arrogance... just being clear. JME...

if it were me at this point, after having spent one evening hanging out with the guy, i'd make a point of being happy & gracious after my next dance with him, tell him i really look forward to dancing with him some more later, & announce i'm going to go check out who all else is around... and then disappear to scout out the night's crowd... get a drink... find myself somewhere comfy to watch... or just immediately get myself out there on the floor with someone else.

[salsera_alemana]

I would not directly bring up the subject if he does not make any romantic advances at you. That could irritate him. Samina's suggestion is good: Just signal that all you want is dance by interacting and dancing also with others.

[SnowDancer]

Aw, darnit. I figured. Sigh. I guess I will have to try and tone it down. Too bad. :(

Normally I would agree with this, but if the options are to dance with the one really nice smooth musical lead in the place or to take your chances being dragged around by various aggressive beat-less leaders all night...


I think you could preempt problems by saying something that makes it clear that you really like his dancing, like, "Hope you don't mind me monopolizing you the whole evening, but you're the best dancer here."

Just have to wonder, though, what sort of place you're at where there's only one lead who's on-beat and not rough.

[samina]

"Hope you don't mind me monopolizing you the whole evening, but you're the best dancer here."



yep... poifect.

[salsera_alemana]

I second this!!! Right on the money!

So keep having fun!

[englezul]

This is the beginning of one of those happy family stories that starts with 'When I met your father I used to monopolize him for being the best dancer around'.

On a serious note, if he hangs out with you for the same reason (ie. You are the best dancer in the scene) and his reasons are substantially more driven by dancing than spending time in your company then it's cool. Otherwise you're leading him on to benefit your dancing.

Depending on how socially savvy you are you may already know the answer, but to make sure it's always nice just to bring it up and discuss it. The most natural occurrence between men and women that spend a lot of time together is at least for one of them to start seeing the other in romantic light. This is particularly true in the salsa world where the socializing comes hand in hand with the touching and other forms of interaction that put the romantic mechanism in motion. Especially since the people who are really into salsa want a partener who shares their passion.

So this being said I wouldn't be at all surprised if he developed some feelings for you, and I wouldn't put that on his shoulders as a proof of his arrogance, or 'social stupidity' that some of the posters here hinted at. But as something that could happen, and that can be prevented by adequate communication.

Like Sweavo noticed, the reality is that women are more inclined to consider leading a man on being just natural behavior and dodge responsibility by resorting to some innocent rationalization like 'I was only doing X for Y reason ...I don't know where he got Z idea'. Which is why probably men that have seen this a lot would rationalize it as being something they've misunderstood, and that they just don't get it rather than understand that in fact they were being led on.



I have experienced this 'innocent' hanging out to dance kind of thing with one of my friends too and it was never, not even jokingly framed as more than just friends hanging out to dance. And then of course the inevitable happened and she started to see me in a different light and went through a really hard time when me and my girlfriend got together. It's funny and sad at the same time that I actually thought that the way we were interacting was normal and there were no other adjacent developments. Especially since after I told my mother two or three times that I am going to X event with Y,Z girls she pulled me aside and said something along the lines of 'The reason why you don't have a girlfriend is because you don't choose. A girl doesn't spend this much time with a boy she doesn't like. You have to choose so the other can move on.' So I chose and the other one got hurt. My jaw literally dropped since I've spent quite a while in the company of these girls and I had no clue it was the case. Mostly because in more than several occasions they were dismissive at the possibility that our relationship was prefiguring something more. But my mom without even knowing them just from hearing about where we were going and what we were doing nailed right on the head.

After some thought I realized that indeed there is a special language between men and women, and when that language becomes sub-communicated through the interactions than feelings start heading towards that romantic direction. And I think I was leading her on, although that wasn't my intention and I really appreciated her friendship. I hit the wall but I learned from it.

So myself and the other girl had some rough patches in our relationship but eventually we were both comfortable enough to be open about it, we had a discussion and we're friends again.

So the lesson is, take full responsibility and cover all contingencies especially when it comes to your entourage.

[Steve Pastor]

I dance in Portland, too, SnowDancer, and whether it is Argentine Tango or country western, few of the men are in time to the music, let alone being musical. This is true everywhere I have watched people dance (various places around the country, TV and stage performances excluded). Maybe salsa dancers are better at being in time with the music, but my experience leads me to think otherwise.

[etp777]

That's definitely true in ballroom, swing AND salsa worlds here in chicago Steve. Of course, guilty of it myself occasionally, mostly in mambo

[noobster]

Unless the guy has given an indication that he's interested, I think it would be presumptious to say anything too directly.
Oh, I totally agree. It would be completely bizarre and out of line for me to say anything directly without a direct statement of interest from him. But I just got a little 'feeling' from him (among other things, he asked if I wanted to join him and his friends for food afterwards, walked me to my car when I declined, gave me his phone # and asked when he'd see me again), and I would like to head off the possibility that he might make such a direct statement of interest, because then everything would suddenly get awkward and probably stay that way for a while. And he is a really nice dancer and seems like a super-sweet guy as well, so I would like to avoid that.

Btw I went out again last night and had an awesome time - first time I've had a really, truly satisfying dance night since I left NY. (Allegro Ballroom - thanks for the tip Bailando!! It's kind of like the SF version of Jimmy's! Even some on2! :D I'll definitely be back - it's a little far but so worth it!)

I danced with him twice but there was someone waiting each time we were done (the scene was a little leader-heavy and guys were grabbing my hand all night, right up to when I was walking out the door) so it wasn't much of a problem to avoid giving the wrong kind of signal again.

Presumably I am going to run into the same sort of issue I had when I started in NY, which is that a new face pricks everybody's ears up. I am sure it will all calm down in a month or two.

[kayak]

Yea, I think the already established crowd at any dance venue is paying extra attention to the new faces because they already know the current ones. If something fun was going to happen with someone already there, it probably already would have right? So people have to keep an eye open for new dancers to meet. Then, there are the hawkish creepy guys who swoop in on the new ladies and the clingy girls that pounce the new guy. I think it is amazing that dance actually works for many couple getting together.

[GTO Bruin]

...But I just got a little 'feeling' from him (among other things, he asked if I wanted to join him and his friends for food afterwards, walked me to my car when I declined, gave me his phone # and asked when he'd see me again)....

Oh yeah. Definitely worthy of some preemptive steps. I like the Snow Dancer's suggestion -very supportive.

[etp777]

The most natural occurrence between men and women that spend a lot of time together is at least for one of them to start seeing the other in romantic light. This is particularly true in the salsa world where the socializing comes hand in hand with the touching and other forms of interaction that put the romantic mechanism in motion. Especially since the people who are really into salsa want a partener who shares their passion.


This is definitely not limited to salsa world, but rather all of dance world. Can see this with how many threads there are about someone falling for their teacher in the other sections of DF.

[poopy]

Speaking for salsa clubs in Los Angeles, guys are going to hit on you no matter what you do. Thats just how it is....you can't get rid of horny old men hitting on you!

And its not your fault...you dance as many dances as you want with him. There's really no avoiding it when the good guys always keep asking you to dance because its either a) dance with them or b) dance with lousy guys.

[samina]

The most natural occurrence between men and women that spend a lot of time together is at least for one of them to start seeing the other in romantic light.

... the basis for all of jane austen's book... and probly at least 3/4 of the rest that's out there... lol

[fascination]

I second this!!! Right on the money!

So keep having fun!
tritto

[fascination]

... the basis for all of jane austen's book... and probly at least 3/4 of the rest that's out there... lolyep...dangit

[noobster]

I think you could preempt problems by saying something that makes it clear that you really like his dancing, like, "Hope you don't mind me monopolizing you the whole evening, but you're the best dancer here."
Perfect - thanks! I will keep it in mind. :)

guys are going to hit on you no matter what you do. Thats just how it is....you can't get rid of horny old men hitting on you!Actually this guy is not a horny old man. I suspect he is younger than I am and he is very sweet and rather attractive. It's just that we have a significant difference in background and education (he's an illegal immigrant, as are several of the dancers in the NY salsa scene as well as a lot of the people I met in my old, heavily Latino neighborhood in NY) and I admit that am a snob that way - at least with intimate personal relationships. (So if I am honest, part of the reason I am worried about sending out the wrong signals is that I am kind of into him despite myself, so it's very easy to do that semiunintentionally.)

There's really no avoiding it when the good guys always keep asking you to dance because its either a) dance with them or b) dance with lousy guys.Or not dance. A Hobson's choice, my friend.

[Bailando]

Btw I went out again last night and had an awesome time - first time I've had a really, truly satisfying dance night since I left NY. (Allegro Ballroom - thanks for the tip Bailando!! It's kind of like the SF version of Jimmy's! Even some on2! :D I'll definitely be back - it's a little far but so worth it!)

I'm so happy to hear this! Glad you had a good time--it was probably about time, eh?

I also had a good time this past weekend in my newish scene. But I feel your pain about going the extra distance to get a fix. I had to shell out about $70 to take a taxi back home because the subway had already stopped running and it's too far to take a bus home.

I danced with him twice but there was someone waiting each time we were done (the scene was a little leader-heavy and guys were grabbing my hand all night, right up to when I was walking out the door) so it wasn't much of a problem to avoid giving the wrong kind of signal again.


Lucky you! :)

[Shooshoo]

I would not directly bring up the subject if he does not make any romantic advances at you. That could irritate him. Samina's suggestion is good: Just signal that all you want is dance by interacting and dancing also with others.

Yeah, that's true and anyways many guys just flirt to have some fun.

[sweavo]

noobster and leader sitting in a tree...

k . i . s . s . i . n . g ....

My advice is to do what comes naturally. Denial is a natural part of it all... go with that west coast sea air... and be sure and invite me to the wedding...:evil::raisebro:

[Shooshoo]

sweavo, I can imagine how you where at school...

[englezul]

sweavo, I can imagine how you where at school...

He was climbing trees. :cool:

[sweavo]

He was climbing trees. :cool:

tooo-shay!
:D

[AlexSem]

I think the more sensible question is why didn't you go for the guy if you liked him so much :P If you didn't, then he wouldn't have gotten any ideas to begin with, right? :)

I like what englezul said, if a girl hangs around you, she likes you, or she's shamelessly, selfishly using you. I hope you're not the latter :)

[quixotedlm]

It doesn't matter how you argue it and justify it - it's what AlexSim wrote. You like him or you are using him. The only exception is if you have a pre-existing platonic dance relationship with him.

[samina]

come on, guys... i've got buddies i hang with (loosely) when i'm out at salsa clubs... it's cuz i like them as... buddies to hang with (loosely) at salsa clubs. and i'm not using them, & not liking them more than that... that's not so weird, is it?

[FatBaldGuy60]

Part 1:
It would be completely bizarre and out of line for me to say anything directly without a direct statement of interest from him.

Part 2:
But I just got a little 'feeling' from him (among other things, he asked if I wanted to join him and his friends for food afterwards, walked me to my car when I declined, gave me his phone # and asked when he'd see me again)

For the answer to Part 1 see Part 2. He made a direct statment of interest. As to whether you reciprocate...you seem to have some issues about that which you need to deal with. Edit: And I don't mean that in a negative way. It is just something that you have to make a decision about and then deal with the reuslts of that decision.

FBG

[SnowDancer]

Perfect - thanks! I will keep it in mind. :)

Actually this guy is not a horny old man. I suspect he is younger than I am and he is very sweet and rather attractive. It's just that we have a significant difference in background and education (he's an illegal immigrant, as are several of the dancers in the NY salsa scene as well as a lot of the people I met in my old, heavily Latino neighborhood in NY) and I admit that am a snob that way - at least with intimate personal relationships.

This could be a movie plot: He's actually a high-tech, PhD, Silicon Valley CEO worth $$$$. But he pretends to be an illegal immigrant so women won't flock to him solely for his money. And he loves to dance, but he hides this part of himself from his fellow executives. You, the highly-educated career woman, have just moved to the area and have just started your new job... at his company.
:eek:

[englezul]

This could be a movie plot: He's actually a high-tech, PhD, Silicon Valley CEO worth $$$$. But he pretends to be an illegal immigrant so women won't flock to him solely for his money. And he loves to dance, but he hides this part of himself from his fellow executives. You, the highly-educated career woman, have just moved to the area and have just started your new job... at his company.
:eek:

I think it's substantial enough to yield at least a thousand episodes for the successor to The Young And The Restless.

[noobster]

You guys are ridiculous. :p

Last time I post anything remotely related to my personal life on this forum. :evil:

It doesn't matter how you argue it and justify it - it's what AlexSim wrote. You like him or you are using him. The only exception is if you have a pre-existing platonic dance relationship with him.
So how do these 'pre-existing' platonic dance relationships ever come into being, if the only alternatives for interacting with a new person of the opposite sex are 'I like him' or 'I'm using him'?

[englezul]

You guys are ridiculous. :p

Last time I post anything remotely related to my personal life on this forum. :evil:


So how do these 'pre-existing' platonic dance relationships ever come into being, if the only alternatives for interacting with a new person of the opposite sex are 'I like him' or 'I'm using him'?

By managing expectations right away. This would give him a the choice of managing his time because if he wants to meet someone he could want to spend more time with someone else if you're not interested. And if he isn't really looking for someone and just wants to be friends, he will appreciate you being upfront and considerate towards his time.

But if you just ignore the signs and play along giving him the impression that his time commitment is getting somewhere then that is not as respectable.

Everything is fair game as long as you don't take the choice away.

Also for a relationship to be platonic the time spent in each other's company at the venue should be significantly less than what a woman and a man who date each other would be in the same circumstance.

[noobster]

By managing expectations right away. This would give him a the choice of managing his time because if he wants to meet someone he could want to spend more time with someone else if you're not interested...
Also for a relationship to be platonic the time spent in each other's company at the venue should be significantly less than what a woman and a man who date each other would be in the same circumstance.
Okay. Well, like I said: only two dances with him on Sunday night. I'm being a good girl. :p

[sweavo]

I don't think it should be a cut n dried choice between putting out or being a user. Since I started salsa, I've probably 'fancied' 30 girls, made passes at 10, and had reciprocation from 4 of those... the knockbacks are part of being a guy... but then, these moral/etiquette crises seem very much to be part of being a girl, too :-)


Also of course, these rules vary from culture to culture. I think Brit guys are much less ... focussed than US guys on these matters.

[quixotedlm]

You guys are ridiculous. :p

Last time I post anything remotely related to my personal life on this forum. :evil:

So how do these 'pre-existing' platonic dance relationships ever come into being, if the only alternatives for interacting with a new person of the opposite sex are 'I like him' or 'I'm using him'?

come on, guys... i've got buddies i hang with (loosely) when i'm out at salsa clubs... it's cuz i like them as... buddies to hang with (loosely) at salsa clubs. and i'm not using them, & not liking them more than that... that's not so weird, is it?


noobster - first, by 'you', i meant the general you, not the specific you=noobster. i was talking in general terms. really sorry if i sounded bitchy, which i did, because someone did exactly this to me 2 days ago :-|

re your question - if you've danced with someone about 1-2 dances a night for over several weeks/months, you'd have a some sort of a buddy-sort of relationship, at least on the dance floor. then if you go to a club with very few good dancers and you monopolize each others time, then it is ok (assuming he is wanting to do exactly that - and dance the night mostly with you and hopefully, a handful of others as well).

if on the other hand, you don't readily recognize each other and already enjoy dancing with one another, there is a huge possibility that a sudden spurt in interest could be highly suggestive and be interpreted, rightly by the man, as interest on the woman's part.

now if you notice that interest and continue riding off of that to satisfy your dancing needs, then you are using him. the onus is upon you to make the distinction clear that you are interested in a platonic way and not anything more. platonic is not the default - romantic is. that's the part that I really don't care how anybody argues/wiggles out of - that's how it is and you've go to just learn to work within the constraints of that reality.

there is a flip side to this protocol for guys too - every time a guy tries to go chat with a gal on the dance floor with simple friendship as his motive, he has to expect that his actions will be interpreted as him hitting upon her.

now it is possible to do what you want to do and still make it clear that its all platonic and friendly. how would you do it? it's all subjective and totally up to you. only the crux of this whole discussion is relevant and how you take care of it is up to each person - that if a guy interprets your friendliness and enthusiasm as more than just dancing interest, his response is natural and reasonable because your actions fit the normal description of flirting or leading-on.

[noobster]

noobster - first, by 'you', i meant the general you, not the specific you=noobster. i was talking in general terms. really sorry if i sounded bitchy, which i did, because someone did exactly this to me 2 days ago :-|
Don't worry, I'm quite difficult to offend. ;) Sorry to hear someone gave you the runaround.

platonic is not the default - romantic is.
Well. I think it's more that (in general, in the US) men consider the default to be romantic, whereas women consider it to be platonic.

When you consider that you can really only be in one constructive romantic relationship at a time, I'd say the latter makes more sense. But I recognize that I live in a world in which 50% of the people have their logic clouded by testosterone. I can make allowances. ;)

[quixotedlm]

Well. I think it's more that (in general, in the US) men consider the default to be romantic, whereas women consider it to be platonic.

When you consider that you can really only be in one constructive romantic relationship at a time, I'd say the latter makes more sense. But I recognize that I live in a world in which 50% of the people have their logic clouded by testosterone. I can make allowances. ;)

If women really thought that way (ie, platonic being the default), then they wouldn't be constantly reacting to every approach by men as a come-on. Looking at the state of the world, I'd guess that the default is indeed romantic. I didn't make it up - I learned it (and am learning it) the hard way, and my teachers have been women. I personally prefer platonic as the default and am constantly amazed at the reactions I get sometimes.

Although what I've also observed is that women who are not looking (or are not interested) manifest that lack of interest by flipping the default switch from romantic to platonic and acting surprised when they are told otherwise ;)

[sweavo]

Well. I think it's more that (in general, in the US) men consider the default to be romantic, whereas women consider it to be platonic.


This is the one thing that salsa has taught me. Somehow, the ladies all dress up and go out to be manhandled by as many men as possible and do lots of sexy styling, and it's not all about the sex... I actually tell my beginners this from time to time, saves the guys getting all excited for nothing.

[Shooshoo]

tooo-shay!
:D

What does this mean?

[Ron Obvious]

What does this mean?

I guess he means touché, what you call in fencing when you are hit. In discussions it means a good response, http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3469/mwordne2.pngphorically.

[sweavo]

I guess he means touché, what you call in fencing when you are hit. In discussions it means a good response, ****phorically.

Yes. It means "oo, ya got me!"

[tangotime]

Lets go all French-- Touche ', mon ami ! ( Thats nearly the limit of my vocabulary )

[sweavo]

Lets go all French-- Touche ', mon ami ! ( Thats nearly the limit of my vocabulary )

Bon idée! Crème brulée! Coq au vin et cassoulet!

My italian is at a similar level :)

[tj]

Omelette du fromage (remembered from an old Steve Martin routine)

[SnowDancer]

"Tu es la plume de ma tante." Said romantically on some comedy show that I can't remember. ("You are my aunt's pen.")

[quixotedlm]

this is what happens when noob posts about the spicy details of her personal dance-floor life. y'all start gossiping in french ;)

[salsamale]

Let's say you go out to a salsa club by yourself, and there are very few reasonably experienced dancers there, and you find one leader you have a pretty good connection with.

If you dance with that same guy most of the night, and you make a little conversation in the breaks, is that necessarily an indication of interest in something more?

I guess what I'm saying is, if I am not interested in the guy other than as a dance buddy, am I being misleading by hanging around with him all night just because he is an awesome flirty dancer with good floorcraft and a nice smooth lead (and because I miss chatting in Spanish)?
I like flirting with salseras on the dance floor. On different days/ nights, I like to try different things. Dance only with beginners. Dance only with strangers. Dance only with friends. Dance only with 1 person all night long. The level of flirting will vary with the salsera.

I find it amusing when, after a fun, flirty dance, one particular salsera always makes it a point to say "thank you", and then rush away, even when there is no one else to dance with. She may have even been the one to invite me in the first place. It's like there's some cardinal 1-dance rule she's afraid to break.

Lately, I have resolved to be more selfish. Yes, there are days/ nights when I want the variety and challenge of dancing with complete beginners, spin the wheel of chance, and hope to find a connection, diamond in the rough. There's also the positive karma one gets from giving back to the salsa community. Lately, however, I have resolved to take the following approach on some days/ nights: if the connection is great, be selfish, and dance like I might never see this salsera again.

With that said, if a salsera allowed this to continue over a number of days/ nights, I would suspect that there may be potential for more. If I was really interested in this salsera, I would be disappointed if the potential was an illusion, however, I wouldn't stop dancing with her. Instead, I would continue to enjoy all the positive benefits of dancing with her, and being in her company. The level of flirting might change.

[AlexSem]

By managing expectations right away. This would give him a the choice of managing his time because if he wants to meet someone he could want to spend more time with someone else if you're not interested. And if he isn't really looking for someone and just wants to be friends, he will appreciate you being upfront and considerate towards his time.

But if you just ignore the signs and play along giving him the impression that his time commitment is getting somewhere then that is not as respectable.

Everything is fair game as long as you don't take the choice away.

Also for a relationship to be platonic the time spent in each other's company at the venue should be significantly less than what a woman and a man who date each other would be in the same circumstance.

If women knew right from the start they are going to have a relationship with the guy, it'd be kinda boring don't you think? It's part of the game for guys to amp up the attraction and for the woman to follow the feelings :) Ride the way and all. What happened in this scenario is she liked the guy until a certain point. Then she lost the attraction and wasn't sure how to get rid of the guy :)

[jennyisdancing]

Originally Posted by englezul
By managing expectations right away. This would give him a the choice of managing his time because if he wants to meet someone he could want to spend more time with someone else if you're not interested. And if he isn't really looking for someone and just wants to be friends, he will appreciate you being upfront and considerate towards his time.

But if you just ignore the signs and play along giving him the impression that his time commitment is getting somewhere then that is not as respectable.

Everything is fair game as long as you don't take the choice away.

Also for a relationship to be platonic the time spent in each other's company at the venue should be significantly less than what a woman and a man who date each other would be in the same circumstance.
Interesting discussion here. In light of it, I had the strangest things happen this week. This guy who is a dance teacher in another style (and acted attracted to me when I was a student in his class) asked me to join him for a salsa lesson (both of us as students this time). He acted like a giddy schoolboy around me, all smiling and excited that I was there. (He also had eagerly told the salsa teacher that I was coming). The salsa teacher then arranged a class outing for a couple days later to practice at a local club, and the guy said he wanted to go with me. The guy suggested we meet and have dinner before joining the others at the club. At that point I figured it was a date.

So here's the crazy part: I had to pay for my own dinner. I had to pay my own cover into the club. He did not even offer to buy me a drink. Yet, he wanted to dance with me most of the night, and while dancing said "there's a connection."

Since we already had planned to mingle with others, I went ahead and danced with other men a few times, and also hung out talking with the girls in our group. When I left the guy to do those things, I saw him kind of standing around confused for a minute, and then he eventually asked other girls from our group to dance. He definitely wasn't trying to hit on other women in the place.

We made pleasant small talk on the ride back, I complimented him on his dancing, and when he dropped me off, the guy talked happily about how we would see each other again next week for another class and dancing. He did not try to do anything physically (i.e. no kiss goodnight).

Maybe this fellow just wants a platonic dance partner, and that's okay with me, but he gave off a lot of "being-attracted" signals too. When I walk into the room, his face lights up like it's Christmas morning. And he seems to enjoy getting close to me.

:confused::confused::confused:
Any clues here?

[quixotedlm]

Any clues here?

He is trying to establish a friendly connection as a first step towards something more. That was a 'maybe date' :)

We (men) have the burden of taking the initiative and courting rejection. So we sometimes like to take one step at a time - and watch for positive (or negative) signals before coming out in the open and making a direct/open courtship attempt.

At this point, if you are interested - then act interested. Casually mention non-dance interests to him ('hey do you like hiking? i've been wanting to but haven't found time' etc), establish an email rapport etc. Also, it's not enough to be enthusiastic about activities - act enthusiastic about spending time with him/dancing with him/proximity to him. Try throwing in something like 'you're cute' line. He will get the clue that you are not going to reject him and actually ask you out for a real date.

I'm pretty sure most girls don't need hints/clues on how to shut a guy out and send clear "not interested" signals, in case that's what you want to do ;)

[Ron Obvious]

Maybe this fellow just wants a platonic dance partner, and that's okay with me, but he gave off a lot of "being-attracted" signals too. When I walk into the room, his face lights up like it's Christmas morning. And he seems to enjoy getting close to me.

:confused::confused::confused:
Any clues here?

I think the "lights up like a christmas tree" is a telltale sign of that he likes you, he might be unsure of your feelings so he tries to be a friend first. My guess.

[Andresito]

Jenny

He is obviously interested. I guess he is acting as a gentleman and waiting for you to give him a signal so he can go further.

[englezul]

So here's the crazy part: I had to pay for my own dinner. I had to pay my own cover into the club. He did not even offer to buy me a drink. Yet, he wanted to dance with me most of the night, and while dancing said "there's a connection."
I think that's very normal and not at all crazy.

I won't consider buying dinner, paying cover, or any expense like that for a girl that i haven't been going out with for a couple of months already. And even then, if it will happen it will be as a matter of convenience and under no circumstances under the premise that 'im picking up the slack'.
Why would I even begin to think about that? We are all responsible adults we should act accordingly. The only time I give out the dough is when I teach them how to bake.

All in all I would say that would be the biggest mistake men do while dating. Romantic interests should not show up on the credit card bills.

[jennyisdancing]

He is trying to establish a friendly connection as a first step towards something more. That was a 'maybe date' :)

We (men) have the burden of taking the initiative and courting rejection. So we sometimes like to take one step at a time - and watch for positive (or negative) signals before coming out in the open and making a direct/open courtship attempt.

At this point, if you are interested - then act interested. Casually mention non-dance interests to him ('hey do you like hiking? i've been wanting to but haven't found time' etc), establish an email rapport etc. Also, it's not enough to be enthusiastic about activities - act enthusiastic about spending time with him/dancing with him/proximity to him. Try throwing in something like 'you're cute' line. He will get the clue that you are not going to reject him and actually ask you out for a real date.

I'm pretty sure most girls don't need hints/clues on how to shut a guy out and send clear "not interested" signals, in case that's what you want to do ;)

Well, quix, this is very interesting. I don't think I've ever been on a 'maybe' date before. I mean, under normal etiquette, if a man asks a woman to join him for dinner, he's expected to pay for it - unless he clearly says otherwise in advance (such as 'let's split dinner', 'go dutch treat' etc.). To invite a woman to a meal and suddenly stick her with her dinner bill is an insult. Our meal was very inexpensive, so I wasn't expecting the guy to drop big bucks on me either. It's not a question of money. Just saying, if this guy wanted a low-pressure situation, he could have arranged for us to meet after dinner and go straight to the club. When you get asked to dinner, it sets up certain expectations. I should mention this is a much older man who is well familiar with traditional dating etiquette. But actually, I've had dates of all ages pay for the meal and offer to buy drinks. I've never had it happen otherwise.

In any event, your ideas are good, and the things you suggested already happened - we talked about other things we like to do in our spare time, and I acted interested, a little flirtatious, smiled a lot at him, and touched his arm when talking to him (classic body language). If he doesn't get all those hints, well geez, maybe I need to invest in semaphore flags. :p

[quixotedlm]

Well, quix, this is very interesting. I don't think I've ever been on a 'maybe' date before. I mean, under normal etiquette, if a man asks a woman to join him for dinner, he's expected to pay for it - unless he clearly says otherwise in advance (such as 'let's split dinner', 'go dutch treat' etc.). To invite a woman to a meal and suddenly stick her with her dinner bill is an insult. Our meal was very inexpensive, so I wasn't expecting the guy to drop big bucks on me either. It's not a question of money. Just saying, if this guy wanted a low-pressure situation, he could have arranged for us to meet after dinner and go straight to the club. When you get asked to dinner, it sets up certain expectations. I should mention this is a much older man who is well familiar with traditional dating etiquette. But actually, I've had dates of all ages pay for the meal and offer to buy drinks. I've never had it happen otherwise.



in a non-dancing context, this is easy.

with other dancers, it's more confusing for guys also. we tend to think, "what if she views my invitation as 'let's meet for dancing and grab some grub first' and not as a date?", and go in with a little ambiguity. with a non-dancer, the dancing itself would be part of the date and the girl would be expected to dance with only her date and nobody else ;), and the dinner would clearly be part of the date-etiquette.

the asker pays is an ok rule, but not everyone goes by it. i think we are at a cultural era where the mores are starting to get ambiguous, and that's ok. i usually prefer to pay, but i always throw in a line (esp if she offers to split) like, "next time, we'll go a fancier place and you can pay" :) so in a way, i do agree with englezul that one person shouldn't have to pay for a date, but it can be done more gracefully than going dutch by taking turns.

[salsamale]

... we talked about other things we like to do in our spare time, and I acted interested, a little flirtatious, smiled a lot at him, and touched his arm when talking to him (classic body language). If he doesn't get all those hints, well geez, maybe I need to invest in semaphore flags. :p
Maybe it's time for the "Where do you think this relationship is going" talk? :)

[quixotedlm]

Maybe it's time for the "Where do you think this relationship is going" talk? :)

well, just kiss him. ;)

[salsamale]

well, just kiss him. ;)
I agree, you should kiss him, jennyisdancing :).



(United Brotherhood of Salseros, Member #442262)

[tj]

Lol, you two! :nope:

[jennyisdancing]

we tend to think, "what if she views my invitation as 'let's meet for dancing and grab some grub first' and not as a date?"

Exactly, that's why I posted my question on this board and appreciate your thoughts. I am fairly new to social partner dancing of this kind, and I didn't know if the dating etiquette is different when joining a group of people who plan to rotate partners through the evening. My only prior experience with men asking me to go dancing is in the context of a normal type of date where you only dance with that person. So yeah, I could see where (for the dinner) he could have thought along the lines you mentioned.

Still, he could have clarified his intentions by paying my cover or buying me a drink. Again, it's not a money issue, it's just that those are universal signals to tell a woman "I'm interested in you". I mean, I had to coax the guy just to get me a Diet Coke. That was odd to me.

[quixotedlm]

Exactly, that's why I posted my question on this board and appreciate your thoughts. I am fairly new to social partner dancing of this kind, and I didn't know if the dating etiquette is different when joining a group of people who plan to rotate partners through the evening.

dating etiquette among dancers is effed up. the dating lives of most dancers is also effed up. the connection and interest could be just dancing related, just romantic or a mixture of both. more often than not, men on thedance scene learn to their utter disappointment that a certain gal is especially interested in him,but only because the dancing is so great and wants little or nothing more than to explore than connection sans romance. sometimes, we men do that women. then there is the question of how to deal with an ex who won't just vanish away and continues to dance... it's all effed up. :rolleyes:

welcome to our world ;)

[jennyisdancing]

dating etiquette among dancers is effed up. the dating lives of most dancers is also effed up. the connection and interest could be just dancing related, just romantic or a mixture of both. more often than not, men on thedance scene learn to their utter disappointment that a certain gal is especially interested in him,but only because the dancing is so great and wants little or nothing more than to explore than connection sans romance. sometimes, we men do that women. then there is the question of how to deal with an ex who won't just vanish away and continues to dance... it's all effed up.

welcome to our world :wink: Dear Lord, help me.

And no, I'm not going to just kiss him. Hopefully that was a joke. :grin:

Sorry, but I like to be wooed! If that's not compatible with dancing then I will look elsewhere for dates. :)
Though I am sorry to hear that you men are often misled by ladies who only want dance partners. We women also need to be careful of the signals we are giving.

[tj]

Lol, can I just buy all 3 of you a drink. :rolleyes: ;)

[quixotedlm]

Dear Lord, help me.

And no, I'm not going to just kiss him. Hopefully that was a joke. :grin:

Sorry, but I like to be wooed! If that's not compatible with dancing then I will look elsewhere for dates. :)
Though I am sorry to hear that you men are often misled by ladies who only want dance partners. We women also need to be careful of the signals we are giving.

that was a joke, but only a semi-serious one. nothing wrong in being forward ;)

look elsewhere for dates? then what will you do when you are hopelessly hooked to dancing, and your beau is not so much into it?

[Andresito]

OK, Jenny I'll tell you what happens with me and this could maybe help

I am 40 but I am very fit and look younger, everybody says I look 27-33. This is cool I go out and dance the night away with attractive young girls 22-30, and when I do it I am very passionate ( I am a real Latin ;) )and this pleases to some and puts off some others. It's cool to me, I stay with the ones that like it and there are quite a good quantity.

I have been involved with many younger girls, my last girlfriend has 26 now.

So, If I am interested in one girl, what I do is similar to what this guy is doing. I approach her; I don't hide the fact I like her; I start involving her in dance and non dance activities, I am a perfect gentleman, BUT I don't try to get her. ( in my inner game and in my outer game ). If she shows interest I still don't jump into it. I want to be sure that she is interested, then things go naturally, It is quite clear to me when she is ready, is kind of confusing when she is not. If it doesn't work that's fine.

One thing I did before that I absolutely don't do now, is that I don't pay for dates or give gifts, before she is my girlfriend. This is because one ex told me clearly that I absolutely must avoid this because the girl feels that doing so I am trying to buy her attention and this is a turn-off. so I simply don't do it.

In other words, I come to her, make clear that I am interested, but don't pursue her and I let her give the signals... If she does, great... If not I just enjoy her company dancing. that's cool with me.

In some cases I didn't get her, even when she was clearly interested. the last time she was a 20 yo girl and I just at the last moment decided that she was way too young for me :p

[quixotedlm]

OK, Jenny I'll tell you what happens with me and this could maybe help

I am 40 but I am very fit and look younger, everybody says I look 27-33. This is cool I go out and dance the night away with attractive young girls 22-30, and when I do it I am very passionate ( I am a real Latin ;) )and this pleases to some and puts off some others. It's cool to me, I stay with the ones that like it and there are quite a good quantity.

I have been involved with many younger girls, my last girlfriend has 26 now.

So, If I am interested in one girl, what I do is similar to what this guy is doing. I approach her; I don't hide the fact I like her; I start involving her in dance and non dance activities, I am a perfect gentleman, BUT I don't try to get her. ( in my inner game and in my outer game ). If she shows interest I still don't jump into it. I want to be sure that she is interested, then things go naturally, It is quite clear to me when she is ready, is kind of confusing when she is not. If it doesn't work that's fine.

One thing I did before that I absolutely don't do now, is that I don't pay for dates or give gifts, before she is my girlfriend. This is because one ex told me clearly that I absolutely must avoid this because the girl feels that doing so I am trying to buy her attention and this is a turn-off. so I simply don't do it.

In other words, I come to her, make clear that I am interested, but don't pursue her and I let her give the signals... If she does, great... If not I just enjoy her company dancing. that's cool with me.

In some cases I didn't get her, even when she was clearly interested. the last time she was a 20 yo girl and I just at the last moment decided that she was way too young for me :p

an exception i make to gift giving is when it costs nothing or next to nothing. for eg, a cd from your music collection, a poster, a postcard from someplace you visit or a simple flower (like rose) etc is free (or very cheap) and thoughtful.

[Ron Obvious]

In any event, your ideas are good, and the things you suggested already happened - we talked about other things we like to do in our spare time, and I acted interested, a little flirtatious, smiled a lot at him, and touched his arm when talking to him (classic body language). If he doesn't get all those hints, well geez, maybe I need to invest in semaphore flags. :p


Well, I wouldn't necessarily get those hints, the thing is that we analyse all sort of things, and there could be other contradictory things that supercede those 'hints', like for example wiping your bottle before borrowing it to him.

I think it would be quite cute if some woman waved semaphore flags at me, you should try it...

About the pollu... no asker pays; it's a cultural thing I guess. I wouldn't necessarily pay a dinner on a first date, at least not if it's an ambiguous date. But I'm still a student and the etiquette then here is usually that each pay for themselves. If you treat the woman on the first date you signal you are a very macho man who deosn't like independent and modern women. I wouldn't do it, not as a rule at least.

Also it's datingwise counterproductive to e.g buy a lady a drink, it shows that you have to do something to be allowed to talk to her. It's a nicht-nicht I think.

[Ron Obvious]

an exception i make to gift giving is when it costs nothing or next to nothing. for eg, a cd from your music collection, a poster, a postcard from someplace you visit or a simple flower (like rose) etc is free (or very cheap) and thoughtful.

Yes, agree with this. It's the thought that counts.

[quixotedlm]

Yes, agree with this. It's the thought that counts.

but don't do it for the heck of it. let things flow naturally, and if you are in a context from which you perchance think of something appropriate, then its nice to just go with the idea..(eg, you are talking about salsa music and you have a cool track you'd like to share - then make a cd and throw in a cute note)

[jennyisdancing]

OK, Jenny I'll tell you what happens with me and this could maybe help

I am 40 but I am very fit and look younger, everybody says I look 27-33. This is cool I go out and dance the night away with attractive young girls 22-30, and when I do it I am very passionate ( I am a real Latin ;) )and this pleases to some and puts off some others. It's cool to me, I stay with the ones that like it and there are quite a good quantity.

I have been involved with many younger girls, my last girlfriend has 26 now.

So, If I am interested in one girl, what I do is similar to what this guy is doing. I approach her; I don't hide the fact I like her; I start involving her in dance and non dance activities, I am a perfect gentleman, BUT I don't try to get her. ( in my inner game and in my outer game ). If she shows interest I still don't jump into it. I want to be sure that she is interested, then things go naturally, It is quite clear to me when she is ready, is kind of confusing when she is not. If it doesn't work that's fine.

One thing I did before that I absolutely don't do now, is that I don't pay for dates or give gifts, before she is my girlfriend. This is because one ex told me clearly that I absolutely must avoid this because the girl feels that doing so I am trying to buy her attention and this is a turn-off. so I simply don't do it.

In other words, I come to her, make clear that I am interested, but don't pursue her and I let her give the signals... If she does, great... If not I just enjoy her company dancing. that's cool with me.

In some cases I didn't get her, even when she was clearly interested. the last time she was a 20 yo girl and I just at the last moment decided that she was way too young for me :p

But I'm still a student and the etiquette then here is usually that each pay for themselves. If you treat the woman on the first date you signal you are a very macho man who deosn't like independent and modern women. I wouldn't do it, not as a rule at least.

Also it's datingwise counterproductive to e.g buy a lady a drink, it shows that you have to do something to be allowed to talk to her. It's a nicht-nicht I think.I love all the thoughts on here. It sounds like many of you (or the people you date) are quite young. Certainly, if you're a college student, things are definitely much more casual. So maybe I should reiterate one point. I am in my 40's and the guy in question is probably close to 60.

In my experience, and I'm sure in his also, dating when you're older is usually handled very traditionally. I don't ever think that a man is trying to buy my affections when he buys me dinner or a drink. I also do not infer that he is opposed to independent women. There is none of that connotation at all. Actually, it's not even just with much older men; I've dated guys in their 30's and they always offer to pay on a date too. It is simply just a polite gesture to make the lady's evening more pleasant.

So, Andresito, I totally disagree with your ex-girlfriend's opinion; she's entitled to it, but she doesn't speak for all women. Many women, including some younger women, feel differently. I asked the female college interns in my office for their opinions on this. They were appalled to hear that I had to pay for my own dinner.

Originally Posted by quixotedlm http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=442353#post442353)
an exception i make to gift giving is when it costs nothing or next to nothing. for eg, a cd from your music collection, a poster, a postcard from someplace you visit or a simple flower (like rose) etc is free (or very cheap) and thoughtful.


Yes, absolutely. Those are lovely gestures.

[Ron Obvious]

But it could be a cultural difference also, we don't have a dating culture here (like in the states), so we also have less rules. And when I was in Spain I was told that the inviter always pays, no matter what the relationship is, so even between friends and work colleagues.

[Andresito]

Well could be also a cultural thing. European women even are uncomfortable when you pay for their drinks or dinner.

In the Latin countries this is the most normal thing, and women expect the man to pay when they are invited.
.

[quixotedlm]

jenny, the last gal i dated is in her 40's (i'm late 20's). she never had a problem with going dutch in the initial phase. it was not even discussed - it was just natural. sometimes if one person paid fully, the next time the other did (without regard for who did the asking). we are talkign about two economically well-to-do people who can easily afford to pay for several dates every week without much difficulties...

i really think that the 'who pays' question is something that has to be organically worked out, and you can't make a big deal out of it if your date gets it wrong... the rules surrounding this has become very muddy due to conflicting old vs. new ethos...

[Ron Obvious]

This wikipedia page mentions that the habit of splitting the bill is customary in Sweden, but I can vouch for you that it at least applies in all the Nordic countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland). But maybe it's we who are different, and that the rest of the world (except the Dutch) treat the lady on a romantic date. I lived one year in Zürich as well, but I didn't have a romantic date there :( .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_Dutch

Incidentally I heard it's known as "going american" in the Netherlands...

[jennyisdancing]

Thanks Ron. I totally understand there are a variety of dating customs in other countries, and that would help to explain the variety of opinions on this board as well.

I am born and raised American, though, and so is the guy who took me out, so cultural differences would not be an issue in my situation. The Wikipedia entry about going Dutch also says

It may be accepted in some situations, such as between non-intimate friends or less affluent people, but considered stingy in other circumstances, such as on a romantic date (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating) or at a business lunch. The traditional way to handle a bill on a romantic date in the West has been that the one who invited the other (traditionally, nearly always the man) takes the bill

[Musique]

After such in-depth analysis, could it be that he is actually cheap? :???:

[salsamale]

... can I just buy all 3 of you a drink ...
Thanks, tj, but I don't think jennyisdancing is interested in us, in that way :cowboy: :cowboy: http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/board/images/smiles/icon_redface.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon(':oops:')) :cowboy:.

[tj]

:oops: :oops:

:tongue:

[jennyisdancing]

Thanks folks, for all your opinions. After some thought I have concluded that most likely, the guy in question is definitely attracted to me but doesn't want to be in a dating relationship just yet, i.e. he's handling it as friends/dance partners for now. So I'm no longer upset that he didn't pay to take me out, since apparently I was wrong in assuming it was a date.

As mentioned before, this is just so unfamiliar to me since I have not been involved in partner dancing for very long. Maybe this kind of situation happens a lot in the dancing world, I don't know.

Also it does seem to me (and I have heard from others) that sometimes men who are good dancers get a bit spoiled. They are in demand, and some women are pretty forward in pursuing them, so they might feel like they can just sit back. I am not saying this is true in all cases, but like I said, several people have told me this.

[quixotedlm]

Also it does seem to me (and I have heard from others) that sometimes men who are good dancers get a bit spoiled. They are in demand, and some women are pretty forward in pursuing them, so they might feel like they can just sit back. I am not saying this is true in all cases, but like I said, several people have told me this.

that's generally not very true...more often than not, the more advanced dancers (both men and women) are the ones stuck in the rut of being single becuase very few people match their frequencies well enough..

[sweavo]

If you're being pursued by lots of women, you HAVE to sit back or you turn into a playa and very soon you need to get a new social circle!

[jennyisdancing]

If you're being pursued by lots of women, you HAVE to sit back or you turn into a playa and very soon you need to get a new social circle!

:lol::lol::lol:

You sound like a smart guy!

Seriously, though, by 'sitting back' I don't mean deciding not to date. I used the phrase to describe a guy who lets women make all the moves, i.e. that perhaps some men who are good dancers can get many women without having to pursue them, court them, or pay for dates. I guess that situation would be very flattering to a guy's ego, but IMO makes for a very one-sided relationship.

[englezul]

:lol::lol::lol:

You sound like a smart guy!

Seriously, though, by 'sitting back' I don't mean deciding not to date. I used the phrase to describe a guy who lets women make all the moves, i.e. that perhaps some men who are good dancers can get many women without having to pursue them, court them, or pay for dates. I guess that situation would be very flattering to a guy's ego, but IMO makes for a very one-sided relationship.

Much like the opposite makes for a very on-sided relationship. :)

[jennyisdancing]

Much like the opposite makes for a very on-sided relationship. :)

Absolutely. I was going to say it takes two to tango, but hey, this is the salsa thread. :p

[quixotedlm]

Much like the opposite makes for a very on-sided relationship. :)

no no no... men much be macho... you must pay for everything, do all the wooing... and take full initiative.. otherwise the chica won't think you're a man enough for her ;)

[jennyisdancing]

no no no... men much be macho... you must pay for everything, do all the wooing... and take full initiative.. otherwise the chica won't think you're a man enough for her ;)

Most jokes have some truth to them. ;)

[rumblefish]

By hanging around with him all night shouldn't mean that you're leading him and I'm sure you could sense his type of interest. Just be clear if he tries to make a move and explain your position.

As a man, I think to the contrary.

I think the best solution for me, and perhaps for other gentlemen, especially if they are newbies, are two dances (which apparently is the rule). Then I'll stop asking, and wait for her to ASK ME to dance, and to converse WITH ME.

I think it terribly misleading to dance with a man all night long and expect the man to think that you are not interested, e.g., if both the man and woman are single, not involved in relationship.

That is why I believe they, in part, came up with the rule of two or three dances. The Rule was probably established so that one can have as many dances with as many different partners as possible to improve one's dancing style and performance. But go beyond that and a reasonable expectation might arise.

I guess social dancing in the dance world means something entirely different than in the lay world. I think most who do not dance seriously consider social dancing an activity to enjoy and is a conduit to meet members of the opposite sex and find romantic partners.

That is not the case at all - AFAIK, with 'social dance' parties at studios.

However, there's nothing worse than giving a man the wrong signals. Therefore, I would like to establish a new Rule-man or woman asks for two dances, that is it. Either asks for more, it should be assumed there's an interest on SOMEONE's part for something possibly more than just someone to dance with...assuming both are in the market.

It IS complex. I'm single and though I might like dancing with someone, no matter how good she might be, I'm not going to waste my time pursuing someone who has no interest in me. To dance with me all night implies there's an attraction going on, if at a function similar to that described by the poster.

At a social dance party, I really do not EXPECT anything. But there are ways to determine what's going on-they may be very subtle, though.

This is really complex for me! Sorry.

[rumblefish]

I think you could preempt problems by saying something that makes it clear that you really like his dancing, like, "Hope you don't mind me monopolizing you the whole evening, but you're the best dancer here."



Yeah, I don't find that offensive. And I can use it myself if I'm not particularly attracted to a woman but caught in a similar situation.

[nucat78]

Tried the 2 dance rule last night. Nuh uh. We had some... aggressive... visiting follows. Didn't work at a ballroom venue last weekend either. Got cornered by a sweet but tenacious older lady from Carolina. Luckily the place actually has dance cards and I was able to get a semi-regular to "remind" me that the 5th set was with her. Thanks, D!

[rumblefish]

He is trying to establish a friendly connection as a first step towards something more. That was a 'maybe date' :)

We (men) have the burden of taking the initiative and courting rejection. So we sometimes like to take one step at a time - and watch for positive (or negative) signals before coming out in the open and making a direct/open courtship attempt.

At this point, if you are interested - then act interested. Casually mention non-dance interests to him ('hey do you like hiking? i've been wanting to but haven't found time' etc), establish an email rapport etc. Also, it's not enough to be enthusiastic about activities - act enthusiastic about spending time with him/dancing with him/proximity to him. Try throwing in something like 'you're cute' line. He will get the clue that you are not going to reject him and actually ask you out for a real date.

I'm pretty sure most girls don't need hints/clues on how to shut a guy out and send clear "not interested" signals, in case that's what you want to do ;)


Without reading beyond your post, I think you misread her. I think she was defiinitely interested in this guy and the guy gave her ambiguous and inconsistent signals. A man who is interested in a woman and attracted to her and takes her to dinner, etc. is going to KISS her. Given all of her facts, I feel this guy is not really interested in anything other than a friendship or is ambivalent.

Things, however, can and do change.

[rumblefish]

Maybe it's time for the "Where do you think this relationship is going" talk? :)

What 'relationship' (I'm commenting as I'm reading each post)?

[rumblefish]

in a non-dancing context, this is easy.

with other dancers, it's more confusing for guys also. we tend to think, "what if she views my invitation as 'let's meet for dancing and grab some grub first' and not as a date?", and go in with a little ambiguity. with a non-dancer, the dancing itself would be part of the date and the girl would be expected to dance with only her date and nobody else ;), and the dinner would clearly be part of the date-etiquette.

the asker pays is an ok rule, but not everyone goes by it. i think we are at a cultural era where the mores are starting to get ambiguous, and that's ok. i usually prefer to pay, but i always throw in a line (esp if she offers to split) like, "next time, we'll go a fancier place and you can pay" :) so in a way, i do agree with englezul that one person shouldn't have to pay for a date, but it can be done more gracefully than going dutch by taking turns.

The guy's a jellyfish. He should've said, "I'd like to ask you out for dinner, and then meet up with your friends. He did not, so he's either cheap, broke, or not interested in you romantically when he asked you.

[rumblefish]

I think that's very normal and not at all crazy.

I won't consider buying dinner, paying cover, or any expense like that for a girl that i haven't been going out with for a couple of months already. And even then, if it will happen it will be as a matter of convenience and under no circumstances under the premise that 'im picking up the slack'.
Why would I even begin to think about that? We are all responsible adults we should act accordingly. The only time I give out the dough is when I teach them how to bake.

All in all I would say that would be the biggest mistake men do while dating. Romantic interests should not show up on the credit card bills.

Sorry, you're way out there..

[rumblefish]

Well, quix, this is very interesting. I don't think I've ever been on a 'maybe' date before. I mean, under normal etiquette, if a man asks a woman to join him for dinner, he's expected to pay for it - unless he clearly says otherwise in advance (such as 'let's split dinner', 'go dutch treat' etc.). To invite a woman to a meal and suddenly stick her with her dinner bill is an insult. Our meal was very inexpensive, so I wasn't expecting the guy to drop big bucks on me either. It's not a question of money. Just saying, if this guy wanted a low-pressure situation, he could have arranged for us to meet after dinner and go straight to the club. When you get asked to dinner, it sets up certain expectations. I should mention this is a much older man who is well familiar with traditional dating etiquette. But actually, I've had dates of all ages pay for the meal and offer to buy drinks. I've never had it happen otherwise.

In any event, your ideas are good, and the things you suggested already happened - we talked about other things we like to do in our spare time, and I acted interested, a little flirtatious, smiled a lot at him, and touched his arm when talking to him (classic body language). If he doesn't get all those hints, well geez, maybe I need to invest in semaphore flags. :p


Go, GF! A 'maybe' date? What the h is that? My father told me many years ago to look at what people do, not what they say! Actions do speak louder than words! He did not even pay for your cover? Or your dinner, or your drink? Unless he has some kind of perceived ethical conflict (is he your instructor, and, if so, would there be an ethical problem?) I see no interest in you at that time.

[rumblefish]

dating etiquette among dancers is effed up. the dating lives of most dancers is also effed up. the connection and interest could be just dancing related, just romantic or a mixture of both. more often than not, men on thedance scene learn to their utter disappointment that a certain gal is especially interested in him,but only because the dancing is so great and wants little or nothing more than to explore than connection sans romance. sometimes, we men do that women. then there is the question of how to deal with an ex who won't just vanish away and continues to dance... it's all effed up. :rolleyes:

welcome to our world ;)

With my limited experience in the social dancing world, the above post is scary...because there might be truth in it :eek:.

[rumblefish]

Dear Lord, help me.

And no, I'm not going to just kiss him. Hopefully that was a joke. :grin:



On the contrary, that would've been the perfect solution. If he were to say something negative, then at least you'd know and not be mentally f'ing your head up and wasting all your time on this.

Sorry, that would've been a perfect solution!

[samina]

It IS complex. I'm single and though I might like dancing with someone, no matter how good she might be, I'm not going to waste my time pursuing someone who has no interest in me. To dance with me all night implies there's an attraction going on, if at a function similar to that described by the poster.

At a social dance party, I really do not EXPECT anything. But there are ways to determine what's going on-they may be very subtle, though.

This is really complex for me! Sorry.

rumblefish, you will do yourself a world of good and quickly make things simple for yourself if you consider social dance events *only* for dancing...unless you get clobbered over head by a connection you simply can't ignore.

just a suggestion... :)

[rumblefish]

Samina--

I'm curious. What were the rules in the 30's and 40's when people went social dancing?

I thought that's how lots of people met up and dated and eventually married?

Has that changed? Apparently so!

If I follow your advice, I am going to limit my social dancing. I don't fancy going out every night without making a connection. So I'll continue full bore ahead with my classes but limit social dancing to one or two a week.

I'll make my connections elsewhere, then, and will return as a couple to dance lessons and social dance parties.

Does that sound like a reasonable approach-look at the social dance as a mere extension of the classroom and nothing more?

The sad fact may be that all the romance, sensuality and raw sexuality of dance may all but disappear if you become serious about the dance. Talk about irony! :eyebrow:

[jennyisdancing]

Samina--

I'm curious. What were the rules in the 30's and 40's when people went social dancing?

I thought that's how lots of people met up and dated and eventually married?

Has that changed? Apparently so!

If I follow your advice, I am going to limit my social dancing. I don't fancy going out every night without making a connection. So I'll continue full bore ahead with my classes but limit social dancing to one or two a week.

I'll make my connections elsewhere, then, and will return as a couple to dance lessons and social dance parties.

Does that sound like a reasonable approach-look at the social dance as a mere extension of the classroom and nothing more?

The sad fact may be that all the romance, sensuality and raw sexuality of dance may all but disappear if you become serious about the dance. Talk about irony! :eyebrow:

I agree with samina...
Yes, of course, some people do meet and make romantic connections in the course of dancing. It's a social activity like many things are. The distinction to be made is whether that is your primary, or only goal. I don't think it's fair to expect that to happen all the time.

Dances are not bars or singles parties. Many people attend them strictly to practice their dancing - and some folks are married or unavailable. I am referring to events that are specifically for people who are trained in certain dances (as opposed to freestyling in a club). For me personally, I am there to dance, and I have made many good friends. If I happen to meet someone romantically, fine, but it's not a primary goal.

As for the guy I talked about earlier, he continued to display signs of interest such as taking me out for some meals, drinks, shows, etc. (which he paid for) yet he never proceeded in a romantic sense. I just decided he was happy with friendship.

[Steve Pastor]

"The sad fact may be that all the romance, sensuality and raw sexuality of dance may all but disappear if you become serious about the dance. Talk about irony! :eyebrow:"

Lordie, No.
It just ain't so.

All of those things: romance, sensuality and raw sexuality are still there.
Thing is, you leave it on the dance floor, rather than getting a room.

And the good part is that there isn't someone confronting you or giving you the Evil Eye when you go back to the same place the next time, because you didn't call her. And you've still got a great dance partner.

[rumblefish]

Jenny--

Well, I was hoping to combine the two as you apparently were, also, Jenny, but I now see that it's probably not likely to happen in the context of serious 'social dancing'. It's more likely to happen, if at all, while taking a dance class, or meeting someone in a 'regular' dance place where noone knows what they're doing, or entirely outside the dance realm.

Thanks for updating us with your status.

[rumblefish]

All of those things: romance, sensuality and raw sexuality are still there.
Thing is, you leave it on the dance floor, rather than getting a room.



Yeah, sort of like going to junior high school dance parties. :o Well, that's the way it is, apparently, because it may be that is all that 'works'.
It seems sophomoric to me but who am I to criticize. Just go dancing and have a good time, I guess. :).

If one meets the 'love of their life', I guess it's not going to be at a social dance, then again, one never knows, or can say that with any certainty.

[rumblefish]

rumblefish, you will do yourself a world of good and quickly make things simple for yourself if you consider social dance events *only* for dancing...unless you get clobbered over head by a connection you simply can't ignore.

just a suggestion... :)

Have you followed your own advise? If not, do you have regrets? Who are you currently seeing now? Wanna see me? :ladiesma:

[samina]

Samina--

I'm curious. What were the rules in the 30's and 40's when people went social dancing?

don't know, wasn't around then.

I thought that's how lots of people met up and dated and eventually married?well, that happens now, too. it's just a matter of what your *intent* is when you go out. if you're out there "looking", then the dancing is going to be secondary, and ladies are going to feel it...and it can be a turn-off. and also, you're predisposing yourself to compexity and drama.

doesn't mean you can't or won't find someone that way. am sure there are people out there who use social dancing as a dating vehicle...have met some of them, that's for sure. but am just saying that you may enjoy the experience more fully if you have the intention of keeping trolling for chicas off the social dance floor.

If I follow your advice, I am going to limit my social dancing. I don't fancy going out every night without making a connection. So I'll continue full bore ahead with my classes but limit social dancing to one or two a week.well, do what works. but btw, this is a challenge many dancers face. they wanna be dancing, the dance community is a small one, their time is limited for non-dancing pursuits so...many face the same quandary. i know it well.

I'll make my connections elsewhere, then, and will return as a couple to dance lessons and social dance parties...maybe it will work out this way, maybe not. you'll find your way, tho. again...this is common terrain for many dancers. personally, i choose the dancing & don't seek out connections outside of it anymore. honestly, life has a way of bringing the right people to you at the right time. just choose to do what makes you happy and things will take care. :)

The sad fact may be that all the romance, sensuality and raw sexuality of dance may all but disappear if you become serious about the dance. Talk about irony! :eyebrow:nah...it's all there. because you can have sizzling connections with total strangers that you will never see again...it really does help to get on the dance floor and make it all about dance, so that you don't get confused by the "chemistry" you may experience for the length of a dance...or an evening.

[tangotime]

I'm curious. What were the rules in the 30's and 40's when people went social dancing?

I thought that's how lots of people met up and dated and eventually married?

:eyebrow:



Of course , there was no Salsa in those times , so the following analogy is based on that period...



" Rules", for the want of a better word ( manners ? ) were not a lot different from today . Dances started much earlier ( 7.30 many times ) and finished no later than 11 .

Depending on where one lived, many people relied on public transport, which meant that you would get to know people on the same route as you ( this is in the UK )as cars were not as abundant then .

Another major difference was the number of couples who danced on a weekly basis, and most public dance halls were pretty crowded with a good mix of both singles and couples.

Many of the larger facilities ran dancers nites , which catered to B/room dancers specifically ( name bands like Sylvester and Joe Loss ) this virtually guaranteed that one would possibly meet "new" partner possibilties . In fact, a very famous couple met for the first time in a Northern dance hall ( they were both Amats without partners at that time ) and went on to the " top " . I happened to be there at that moment in time.

The ballroom schools ran " practice " nites.. some split them into Latin and Standard, not enough room for both in some cases . Singles met in the same way then as they do now.. however.. many B/room schools did not take " singles ", as many here today still do not .But a " Paul Jones ", a mixer, often lead to new partnerships .Hammersmith Palais had those on their weekly afternoon sessions, which were attended by all the leading Pros and Amat, many who would get involved .

Did all of this lead to romance ?, occasionally, of course it did .