Improving a follower's frame and/or resistance?

[Big10]

I don't think I've mentioned it before, but since early May I've been teaching beginner-level Salsa classes one night a week. I feel pretty good about what I've been able to accomplish with various students, but there is one woman now who still has major trouble keeping her frame during a turn and simple open-position moves. I've gone through the typical resistance and arm-tension exercises that are common to introducing partnership concepts, but she still hasn't gotten much better after a number of classes. :(

This student has pretty poor muscle tone in her arms and shoulders, so I think that's a part of it -- but I've known other women who weren't exactly strong yet still seemed to maintain a good frame. Other than telling her to go home and do 15 push-ups every night, what are some creative ways that I can explain to this student what her upper body should be feeling and actually get her to accomplish it?

So, for the followers out there, were there any memorable tips you received that helped your ability to maintain proper arm resistance throughout the dance? For the instructors out there, what has been the most effective way to get a "weak" woman to improve her resistance/frame?

I realize that not every student will become a great dancer, but I'm the type of instructor who wants everybody to get the basic fundamentals right, especially something like the arm resistance that is critical to any partner dancing. Thanks for whatever insight you can provide!

[englezul]

The frame is created by a the correct alignment of the spine with the hips and shoulders which is controlled by the back muscles (and the abs a little).
So she should try some row-type of exercises to pull those shoulders back and strengthen the upper back and reverse dips for the lower back.

Motivationally, I think it's a good idea to construct a correlation between what improper frame feels like and what it looks like. Take your digital camera to the class one day and just tape the students practicing (so that she doesn't feel she's the target). Then show her what her frame look like. Then make her do the same thing with a correct frame then show her the difference.

[Big10]

Thanks for your suggestions, englezul. However, unless absolutely necessary, I didn't want to suggest any sort of machine-based or other weight-based exercise regimen since, for most beginners, just getting them into the Salsa class is a big step. Some of them don't like weights or the gym, and they think of Salsa dancing as "fun exercise."

I would feel more comfortable discussing weight training with somebody who is at intermediate level and, therefore, has presumably reached the point of making a firm mental commitment that he/she wants to get good at Salsa dancing and is willing to spend more time doing so. However, I don't want to scare off beginners, who might still be ambivalent about the whole Salsa "thing."

With all that in mind, I'm mainly looking for explanations that will help somebody who is physically weak and will stay that way for the foreseeable future. Is there a particular position of the arm or shoulder that will help? Or, is there no way around the strength issue? Will I eventually just have to say, "Hey, you're not going to get any better at these moves until you get physically stronger"?

If that's the case, then what exercises would be good for such people to do at home, without weights? (I'm guessing that if they already had a gym membership, then I wouldn't even be discussing basic levels of strength with them.)

[waltzgirl]

Have you tried getting her to focus on pulling her shoulder blades down? That strengthens the whole frame and increases the tone in the arms.

[AlexSem]

I hope I dont' spur too much here but have you ever just not been able to get something? Others excel far faster than you? I for example am not able to sing... It'd take me significant efforts to get to where an average person is right now :) Same goes for other activities.

So... my suggestion would be to honour the natural skill level everyone's at and as a teacher, accomodate the most number of people to the best of your ability. "No student left behind" policy is imho not a very useful one :) If someone's a big sloucher for example, they'll look bad dancing... Pointing out what has been in place for years is only going to make the person feel really inadequate and what-not... So :)

[waltzgirl]

But if you really wanted to sing, wouldn't you want a teacher who would really work to make you better and would rack their brains to figure out ways to help you? (It's possible with singing--I know because I'm nearly tone-deaf and have about a 1 1/2 note range, but I took lessons from someone who specialized in "non-singers" and I got a lot better.)

Besides, it's better to feel inadequate in a lesson than when she goes out dancing and finds she can't follow anyone and no one asks her to dance.

What you're really suggesting is that she quit dancing. I'm not a naturally talented dancer, so I'm sure glad my teacher didn't have your approach!

[Big10]

So... my suggestion would be to honour the natural skill level everyone's at and as a teacher, accomodate the most number of people to the best of your ability. "No student left behind" policy is imho not a very useful one :)
If we were talking about a leg split or a triple spin, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. However, just holding your arm up and making sure your body rotates when the leader starts to move it ranks pretty low on the list of physical skills for an able-bodied adult, as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, this particular student is one of six people in the class (in contrast to the dozen in my other class), so I have more time to give individualized feedback in this instance. Along the lines of what waltzgirl said, I'm grateful for the times when I lagged behind other students and my teachers gave me some extra feedback to at least try to catch up -- so I'd like to do the same now that I'm in that position.

[Catarina]

This seems like an idea that you've probably tried pointing out, but: when I first learned, the cause & effect principle was pointed out to me, and I feel like that made it really clear. I.e.: your hand gets moved to your right. you eventually have to move your torso to the right, lest you dislocate your shoulder. then heighten your sensitivity to your hand being moved/shoulder nearly dislocated & you realize that when your hand is moved up and to the right, near your forehead level, you turn to the right. it's cause & effect, on a smaller scale. then you could point out how having her arms in a certain way will help her to be more sensitive to the "cause" part of the dancing.
do you think it's a possibility that she's erring on the side of spaghetti arms/frame to avoid seeming "heavy" to her dance partners, out of insecurity in her weight? if so, simply pointing out what you already said that other women without lots of upper arm strength are still great follows and easy to lead may help her follow with more confidence.

[sweavo]

I was going to post with a similar thought to AlexSem's - better for each person to be where they are at, with thoughts of one or two things to work on, than for teacher and student to make a massive issue out of something. If she wants to be a pro, sure, get her on the machines, but if salsa for her is a pastime away from the worries of daily life, you don't want to make it another worry.

In my opinion, work on her mind and her body will follow, also let go of the idea that everybody will be at the same level or progress at the same rate. In terms of working on the mind, I think it's a case of offering perspectives while at the same time avoiding making anything into a big issue. I have used the idea of "I am just dancing with your hand, but I want to be dancing at least with your shoulder" in order to let a follow realize how she can connect up.

[LovingIt28]

great responses, wow!

May I also suggest, get her to dance with you as a lead and you follow (just basic hold and open hold). Show her the difference when you give her a strong frame and firm resistance VS a marshmallow.

Eg. Give her a skipping rope with weight (normal) and then a skipping rope that is REALLY light. The really light one is useless. *some gyms have these

* or tie some string to something to drag around easily (short piece) so there is tension. Notice how small your movements have to be for the object to move (when there is tension). Now make the string longer. (no tension) Notice how much more effort (distance travelled) is needed to first get tension to then communicate to the object.

That will bring the awareness. Hopefully the execution follows.


*finally, do not take it personally. As long as she keeps coming to your classes SHE WILL improve. You sound like a great instructor. Maybe it is sinking in but will take a while to show. Just keep doing a great job!

[AlexSem]

Alright assuming the student really wants it. What I recall doing in my classes back in the day (as a student) was both people holding their palms in front of them, shoulder level. The leader walks forward, the follower walks back. Then you reverse directions, go left, right. This is all done slowly.

That's to introduce the idea of following without much force.

For spins - the technique is different than for leading following, your arm has to be a lot more stiff than it usually would be. 90 degree angles, imagine the hand as part of the body and move from the centre. Practice with them stiffing the arm a lot a few times and then tell em to loosen up as much as they feel is right.

What worked for me, to get me to understand something, is just showing the wrong way exagerrated and then the right way.

[betto]

Explain that the follower always adjust her tension to whatever the leader offers. I got this from Edie. Use a 0-5 scale measure, with 0 being no weight or no pressure nor tension, and 5 being all the body weight. SO if the leaders gives 5, the follower give 5; if the leader gives 2, the follower gives 2 back and so on. Try this with both (leader and follower) holding their hands and having their weight going away from each other and going towards each other with each time being a different number of the scale.
Also make her close her eyes while following some basic moves. This will help her rely on feeling and adjust accordingly.

[tj]

In case it hasn't already been said... Welcome to DF, Betto!

[salsamarty]

You say "I've gone through the typical resistance and arm-tension exercises that are common to introducing partnership concepts" . . .

Have you tried having them close their eyes? Pick some simple clear patterns like outside turn or cross body lead and have them follow with their eyes closed. They may be seeing other signals that they think helps them "follow". Closing their eyes ought to help focus their attention on the frame. I sometimes use this technique . . . sometimes it works . . . sometimes it doesn't. It might be worth a try.

[Big10]

This seems like an idea that you've probably tried pointing out, but: when I first learned, the cause & effect principle was pointed out to me, and I feel like that made it really clear. I.e.: your hand gets moved to your right. you eventually have to move your torso to the right, lest you dislocate your shoulder. then heighten your sensitivity to your hand being moved/shoulder nearly dislocated & you realize that when your hand is moved up and to the right, near your forehead level, you turn to the right. it's cause & effect, on a smaller scale. then you could point out how having her arms in a certain way will help her to be more sensitive to the "cause" part of the dancing.
I have used the idea of "I am just dancing with your hand, but I want to be dancing at least with your shoulder" in order to let a follow realize how she can connect up.
Closing their eyes ought to help focus their attention on the frame. I sometimes use this technique . . . sometimes it works . . . sometimes it doesn't. It might be worth a try.
I've been meaning to come back to this thread with an update. Again, thanks to everybody for taking the time to write your thought-provoking suggestions!

What eventually worked with the student who inspired this thread was a combination of some ideas from the responses here on Dance-Forums, as well as SalsaForums. Specifically, I explained that her hands were like handlebars on a bicycle (or the steering wheel of a car), meaning that a signal to the hands should create a simultaneous reaction in the body, even though the hands were at a distance from the primary moving parts. I also explained and physically demonstrated how keeping her arms/shoulders/frame firmer would help her body to respond to the "hand signals" more quickly. I made her give me highly exaggerated/stiff arm tension so that she could see how little effort it took me to make her body move when that firm connection was present. I also made her close her eyes for awhile during the exercise, so that she could focus on how her body should feel the signals.

I've continued to use the handlebar example as a regular part of my discussions of framing since that time. Also, as a way of reinforcement when I'm working myself into the dance rotation with my students, I always mention to any follower when I'm not getting enough resistance. I want them to realize how crucial it is for the resistance to always be there.

[yippee1999]

For me what helped was for someone (acting as Lead) to physically show me the difference. We'd hold arms and they'd pull or push me by way of our joined arms....then they'd say "OK, apply more resistance". Then I'd apply TOO much and then they'd say how it needed to be more like a ying and yang, not too much resistance nor too little. So after trial and error with us practicing as a couple, I began to understand what they were getting at. So you can't just tell someone what to do...you can't just give them exercises to do...you have to actually hold them in closed position and all those other positions, and keep having them "add" or "subtract" resistance, until they understand the notion of resistance better.

Someone also had me go up to the mirror, and with them standing next to me, they began doing pushups of sorts off of the mirror...leaning at an angle towards the mirror with your arms "locked" at either side, with your palms hovering over the mirror. Then when you "fall" and your palms hit the glass, you try to bounce right back in an upright position, and then repeat in succession. So you get the notion of "bounce" or "elasticity" ....

I also think that classes in ballet, yoga, Alexander Technique and pilates certainly can't hurt either, as they all focus on the frame (...well maybe not yoga so much but....)

[miukat]

Hi everyone! As a new salsa dancer with a tendency to have a spaghetti frame/arms , I can ramble on knowledgeably about this subject. The best thing I did for myself was practice, practice, practice. I went to socials, clubs, made new salsa friends and went out whenever I could. As for my shines, they are still just steps in the closet of my mind, however, my partnerwork has become much better.
I found that partnerwork in my beginner's class was difficult because just as much as I didn't know how to follow, the leaders didn't know how to lead. I feel as if not enough attention was spent getting us to understand how to play our prospective roles. When I started dancing with strangers who all had different styles and levels, i.e. some on 1, some on 2, some were doing I don't know what AND off time, I became a better follower.
Also, role-playing/visualizing also helped. Sometimes I pretend I am performing or in a competition so that I hold my frame better and remember all the little things I need to work on, like bending my knees a bit and holding my arm more firmly when I'm doing double turns, or adding some more styling.

[Schatz]

After explaining/demonstrating the principle of bio-feedback/balance in keeping a good frame, I've found the most effective way to help the students actually do it is have them close their eyes - works wonders for leads AND followers!

[Big10]

So you can't just tell someone what to do...you can't just give them exercises to do...you have to actually hold them in closed position and all those other positions, and keep having them "add" or "subtract" resistance, until they understand the notion of resistance better.
I think your suggestions are very good, but they would work best in the context of private lessons. As I stated earlier in this thread, I was dealing with a group class and, even though it wasn't very large, I still couldn't devote an excessive amount of classtime to just one student.

In other words, your tips work only if the leader can give the follower the correct feedback, yet, as miukat noted:
I found that partnerwork in my beginner's class was difficult because just as much as I didn't know how to follow, the leaders didn't know how to lead.
That's the biggest issue. I needed something that I could explain to the entire class and/or use when I worked myself into the leaders' rotation, briefly spending time with each follower. I couldn't just rely on the beginning leaders to give the necessary feedback.

Nevertheless I appreciate everybody's continuing tips, which I can now use in either a group class or when teaching private lessons. :)

[squirrel]

You know, Big10, sometimes all one needs is actually enough practice. Maybe that's what she needs too.

I know some followers have poor frame, but, other than explain what she is supposed to do and then practically show her what it feels like... there's not much you can do!

For followers who simply do not get it, I sometimes ask them to kinda "lead" me, i.e. I have them push and pull my hands and explain both with words as well as with practical feeling what the correct tension would be.

I am sure she will get it eventually anyway.