Stealing Students

[pygmalion]

I don't know if this is a strictly ballroom phenomenon, but that's where I've seen this happen.

Among independent studios here, there appears to be a sort of gentleman's agreement that dance teachers will live and let live, so to speak, and not try to steal each other's students. And even the students seem to buy into that courtesy and not cross-advertise between studios. It's amazing. Many won't even tell you the name of their former instructors.

I'm in that group, too. Since I left my social dance studio a year ago, I've referred to them as "a social dance studio," and generally said good things about them as much as possible. And the same now. I've just switched studios again, and I truthfully do have lots of good things to say about my former coach.

However, I have seen some spectacular exceptions to all this courtesy -- a couple studios that are so predatory that they're pretty much blackballed by other teachers. And, of course, within the franchise studio system, I saw lots of attempted student-stealing, because of the way the incentive package was set up.


Just curious. Does anyone here have experiences with this student-stealing or attempted theft? Or is courtesy the rule of the day?

[Porfirio Landeros]

I believe that it is actually written into the rules of most NDCA competitions that teachers are not supposed to approach students [that aren't theirs]. I guess some "gentlemen" need some guidelines in writing, or they'll be naughty ;)

[KevinL]

I don't know if this is a strictly ballroom phenomenon, but that's where I've seen this happen.

Among independent studios here, there appears to be a sort of gentleman's agreement that dance teachers will live and let live, so to speak, and not try to steal each other's students. And even the students seem to buy into that courtesy and not cross-advertise between studios. It's amazing. Many won't even tell you the name of their former instructors.

Just curious. Does anyone here have experiences with this student-stealing or attempted theft? Or is courtesy the rule of the day?

Given that the NDCA Code of Ethics (http://www.ndca.org/information/brochures/NDCABallroomDepart12.pdf) states that teachers should "Refrain directly or indirectly from derogatory references or statements directed to, or about dance teachers and dance schools for the purpose of soliciting students." it's not completely a matter of courtesy. However, since the NDCA guidelines are only guidelines, and there doesn't really seem to be anything backing them up, there is nothing forcing teachers or schools to follow these guidelines.

However, as you mention, teachers and schools who behave in a predatory manner get blackballed by other teachers and schools, so it is technically in everyone's best interest to be open, honest and fair. Some people don't choose to act in that way, but it eventually comes back to haunt them.

KevinL

[pygmalion]

And don't forget that a lot of studios out there aren't affiliated with NDCA. My former social dance studio was not involved with NDCA at all.

This was actually quite an ethical dilemma for me. When I left the social dance studio, I knew right away that there was a handful of students there who were much better suited to competitive than social dance. We had talked about our dissatisfaction many times. But, out of loyalty to my former studio, I didn't tell the other students that I was leaving or why. In fact, I don't dance with several people I used to socially. My dancing has become so much better than theirs over the past year that just letting them see me dance would constitute advertising for the new studio. No kidding, and no conceit. That's how much progress I've made. But I can't tell my old acquaintances that, because many of the them would leave.

At least with this switch, I have no qualms about saying great things about my old studio, so my conscience can remain clean.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and here's another one I had forgotten about.

Back in my franchise studio days, a fellow student decided to apply for a job as an instructor at an affiliated studio. The management at my studio was livid. They felt that their fellow franchisee should not have offered him a job. That studio, they felt, was stealing their paying student and turning him into a teacher, and one of their competitors, at that.

I didn't think that case was clear-cut at all. Why shouldn't that dance student have the right to turn instructor, if he wanted?

[DancingMommy]

I believe that it is actually written into the rules of most NDCA competitions that teachers are not supposed to approach students [that aren't theirs]. I guess some "gentlemen" need some guidelines in writing, or they'll be naughty ;)

I don't remember seeing that.... Hmmmmmm I wonder where I put my NDCA rulebooks.....

[Larinda McRaven]

Steve and I have our little saying, "you can't steal a happy student". For us that means we try to always work hard to teach, be fair, friendly, and honest. We do our best and if the student is still unhappy, then yes they will start to stray or wander and look elsewhere.

Also if all instructors would understand that just becasue a student takes a lesson with them first, but the instructors aren't really fulfilling all of the students needs and wishes, you really can't blame the new teacher for picking up a student.

And while it is true that you can't steal my happy students...you certainly can confuse them by filling their head with wacko talk. And direct soliciting and bad-mouthing is one of my hugest peeves.

Our tiny state is lacking in any kind of gentelmanly code. There are a few other teachers that might respect me and my business, but not many. Very sad.

We on the other hand let all of our students know that they are their own keeper, and can be adult enough to make reasonable choices. If they choose to supplement our lessons with another teachers, or simply decide to move on, we simply request that they tell us and not hide it or lie.

We feel that if we show the students that we are honest and open and trusting then they can perhaps tell the difference between us and the "predators".

[pygmalion]

True, Larinda.

Although others may be different, I would never even think about looking for another teacher unless my needs weren't being met with the current instructor. You really can't steal a happy student.

That said, people do try, and the NDCA guidelines, unfortunately, don't stop them. I've experienced attempted theft a lot because I love dancing, and I'm willing to pay for it. So I've had more than a few teachers try to convince me I'd be better off with them than my current instructor. Pretty transparent, usually, and off-putting, too. I figure a good product or service sells itself. So if a dance teacher is trying hard to "sell" me, I wonder why. Good quality shows, without the hard sell. *shrug* And, no matter what happens, I'm not going to leave a teacher unless I absolutely have to. Relationships matter too much to me. So the student stealing is pretty pointless, from my perspective, but it goes on all the time. :x

[Larinda McRaven]

Some more thoughts...

I remember when I first started teaching. My mother came to visit the studio one night. Now my mom is into politics and is a lobbyist and a union president. She is all about "the hustle", and I don't mean the dance.

It was a party night and there were several new people there. They were dancers from another studio. Our manager was being over-friendly with them. She payed a lot of attention to them. I was sitting with my mom and Mom said, "Hey arent you supposed to be over there recuiting new students??? That other lady (our manager) is hustling, get up and go to work!"

So I guess it can come down to simple personalities. Some people have no problem "working it and hustling up business." Hey Trump did not get where he is with gentlemanly conduct. He sees business and he goes after it. Steve and I stuggle with this concept. We see these people as "opportunists" and at first we viewed this with negativity. Then we had to come to terms with the fact that being opportunistic is not a bad thing, it is a survival thing. We simply are not built to operate in that mode. It just comes down to personalities some times.

[pygmalion]

I don't think there's anything wrong with "hustling" to gain or retain business. That's part of the game of making a living.

But it's a lot easier to retain that business if you're providing a quality product in the first place.

No matter who you are or how good you are, some students will leave -- for personal reasons, or financial reasons, or whatever. But if you're good at what you do (which you are!) a much higher percentage of your students will stay.

From my (lowly student LOL) perspective, it's better to spend time thinking about how what students need from you, than to spend time thinking about how you can sell students what you already have. Just my thoughts. Sounds like you're doing exactly the right stuff.

And, really, what's important here? Making a few more dollars today? Or having a clean conscience that you can look back on much later? A few more dollars don't buy that much. *shrug*

[Larinda McRaven]

amen!

[Porfirio Landeros]

... written into the rules of most NDCA competitions ...

I don't know whether or not this is in the NDCA rulebook, but I've seen this in the competition rules/guidelines - the same place where they tell you no camcorders, not responsible for lost/stolen, etc...

Larinda has an honorable philosophy, and I tend to agree. If you are keeping your students happy, I believe it's very hard to be seduced away from a coach.

[pygmalion]

I agree, Porfirio. Finding a good coach and developing a working relationship isn't easy. If things are going well with my coach, there's no way to lure me away.

And there are a few references to professional courtesy and not stealing students in the NDCA Code of Ethics. (Sorry I couldn't figure out how to copy it, or I would. Wrong Adobe product, I guess. I just have the Acrobat Reader. :cry: )

http://www.ndca.org/information/brochures/NDCABallroomDepart12.pdf

Basically, NDCA members are to ,"compete with fairness for patronage," and "refrain ... from derogatory references ... about dance teachers and dance schools for the purposes of soliciting students."

Pretty clear.

[Sagitta]

I don't know if this is a strictly ballroom phenomenon, but that's where I've seen this happen.

Among independent studios here, there appears to be a sort of gentleman's agreement that dance teachers will live and let live, so to speak, and not try to steal each other's students. And even the students seem to buy into that courtesy and not cross-advertise between studios. It's amazing. Many won't even tell you the name of their former instructors.


If anyone is interested I will tell people exactly as it is. Each dance teacher is different, each having their own strengths and emphasis, and so catering to different customers. So I don't see any problem with sharing the knowledge that I have with others.

[pygmalion]

True. I'm not suggesting I'd lie to cover for my previous teachers' shortcomings. I wouldn't. On the other hand, I'm of the "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything," school of thought. Silence carries it's own power, by the way. Just because something is true, doesn't mean I have to say it.

I have a lot of friends, and since (in my other life at least LOL) I don't say much, what I say tends to carry some weight. So I think it would be wrong for me to go tattling on my franchise teachers, for example. Their other students are quite intelligent enough to observe and draw their own conclusions. There's no reason why I have to bad mouth the teachers. People can think for themselves as well as I can. On top of which, I honestly think that, other than some sleazy sales techniques, those teachers do a great job of teaching social dance while providing their students the emotional support many of them need. There's some good in almost everyone.

On top of which, not everybody has the same dance goals I do or the same way of seeing things as I do. What's a good match for someone else may be totally inadequate for me.

And, btw, when I left the social dance studio, I did pull aside one close friend whom I thought would be better of with competitive dance, and I gave him the scoop. But he was very close, I "whispered" the info to him once only. No pressure. I just wanted him to know where I would be when I disappeared.

[cl5814]

Pygmalion,

It is true what you said about few words spoken carries more weight than many empty words spoken. I tend to believe the same thing and try to excercise it as well.

[pygmalion]

Thanks, cl5814.

I guess my problem these days comes in whom I would recommend to new students. (No stealing involved here -- just recommendations) I often have friends ask me about where to start ballroom lessons. And, truth be told, I'd have trouble deciding on a studio to recommend these days. I understand the pros and cons for each.

The social dance studio was fun and easy, but overpriced and with lots of hard sell.

My second studio was much more reasonably priced, with fair and ethical sales techniques and a higher level of training. But it lacked a lot of the infrastructure and support that a larger studio has.

My current studio provides the highest level of training I've ever seen and very nice people, but it's far away, more expensive and has a less flexible schedule (because of high demand.)

So who to recommened? I have no idea.

[Sagitta]

So who to recommened? I have no idea.

You find out what they want and then tailor your response accordingly or just say what you said about those studioes and let them decide. That's what i do.

[superbimmer]

A lot of sound thoughts here.

As in my industry, there are many different types of customers ... and different type of pros to attract them. For pros who "need" to hustle, to grow ... they will attract a hustleable client. Our coach wouldn't hustle a client, if his life depended on it! But, consequently, his students are of a different personality ... they are less vulnerable to being "stolen".

Perhaps it comes down to my father's old saying ... "if you have to blow you own horn, you probably have less to blow about!"

I know this my be overly generalized, but in truth, the very best in most professions, don't spend as much time hawking their business. And ... the more knowledgeable customers, will know that. So, simply, you attract customers who are like you ... and isn't that the best anyway. Consequently ... losing a customer is the natural progression of business, as customers find their comfort niche.

[pygmalion]

Good point, superbimmer. My current coach was almost impossible to find. No studio website, no flyers, no yellow pages ad. Strictly word of mouth. Not even business cards at the local dances. And, frankly speaking, word of mouth is plenty. Between his resume, his ability, and his teaching style, it's very hard to get a time slot on his schedule at all. He's so good that he doesn't need to blow his own horn. everybody else blows his horn for him, me included LOL.

[pygmalion]

Hmm. From what I've been hearing around here lately, the whole stealing students scenario isn't as rare as I'd thought. Anybody have experience with it, or advice to share. How do dance teachers or students deal with the "theft" or perceived theft of students? And do students owe their teachers/studios any loyalty?

Thoughts, anyone?

[Warren J. Dew]

This was actually quite an ethical dilemma for me. When I left the social dance studio, I knew right away that there was a handful of students there who were much better suited to competitive than social dance.... But I can't tell my old acquaintances that, because many of the them would leave.
Would they? I left a social studio for a competitively oriented independent at one point, and didn't try to get anyone to come with me; I was kind of a loner anyway. But I knew someone else who made the same transition a year or two later, from and to the same studios, who tried very hard to get all of her friends to switch as well. Most admitted it sounded like a good idea, but none actually switched: leaving the social group of the social studio was just too big a step.

While I agree the professional guidelines people are discussing here are a good idea, I think they primarily benefit the professionals by keeping them from wasting too much time fighting over students; their effect is neutral with respect to benefiting the students. I don't think there's anything wrong with students giving each other recommendations and discussing the reasons for them; how else is one going to find the best instructors?

That said, I only tend to give recommendations when asked, and while at a given studio, I won't tend to recommend people not at that studio, as that seems to me impolite. I usually try to accentuate the positives, but when asked about negatives, I won't necessarily try to duck the question.

[pygmalion]

True. Maybe my ego is overinflated and people wouldn't have left. Who knows?

The reason I said that is that there were quite a few people like me -- experienced technical professionals (engineers and scientists) who were obviously unhappy with the way that studio was being run, and who were pushing for higher standards. I suspect many of them would have left, if I'd pitched my new studio from that perspective. But, truth be told, I loved my old studio and its owners too much to siphon off their students, so I ddn't take the chance.

[Genesius Redux]

Stealing students?

Let's see. I'm a student. And I'm not anyone's property. That's an offensive idea.

Nobody has ever approached me independently and asked if I'd like to take lessons--if they did, I'd consider that very tacky and wouldn't do it. But I've seen situations where teachers have left a studio, and students have followed them. And then the studio presumes to call them "our students" and accuses the teachers of stealing. And tries to litigate it under a non-compete that is filled with unenforceable stipulations and is thrown out of court, but only after the departing teachers have been obliged to seek legal counsel.

So I'd say the whole idea of stealing students is pretty much nonsense perpetrated by proprietary studios who engage in monopolistic practices. Sure, some students leave their teachers to study with others--but like Larinda says, not if they're happy with their teachers.

Reality check guys--your students do what they want to. They don't get stolen by predatory teachers. If they're leaving you, you might want to ask yourself why....

[Chris Stratton]

I guess I'm very lucky have settled on a direction early, and to have been in a city with a very open dancesport community.

- No one has ever tried to sell me a package

- No one has ever pushed me to take lessons with them, even when offered unsolicited advice by a pro, it's always been given as a free hint for a detail I might want to look into with the teacher of my choice.

- No one has ever tried to push me into doing pro-am

- No one has ever objected to my studying with other teachers

Much of the thanks for this situation goes to the existence of pros with ethics like those mentioned by Larinda. Plus, once students come to expect this kind of treatment, it's very hard for anyone who wants to run a more restrictive environment to succede, outside of a closed base of clients who know nothing of the world beyond a single studio.

[pygmalion]

Yes, Chris, you are lucky. It's just not that way, here. The local economy is tight, when compared to the economy in other places, and the number of potential dance students is finite. It's every teacher for him/herself, in some teachers' minds, sad to say. Most are quite ethical, but by no means all.

[Chris Stratton]

I'd argue that it's exactly because the economy is tight and there is a finite pool of students that we enjoy this kind of treatment - no one can stay in the dancing business otherwise. There is some social/closed studio dancing going on in Boston, but good students break free.

Someone who was dancing pro-am might feel like they had substantially less flexibilty in their choices.

But one thing that is nice, is that as a student once you have come to expect decent treatment, you get it wherever you go, because you project an air of immunity to the hard sell - and you are immune if someone does try.

If someone were head and shoulders above eveyrone else in the reagion - then maybe they could get away with being monopolizing - but with prestigious visitors travelling through, that's a tall order.