Leading the mooch

[xxtupikxx]

I am hoping someone here can help. I come from the school of thought that in latin as well as in standard dancing all changes of direction and timing are lead. This is especially true for syllabus steps. Question: how does the leader, lead the mooch flicks, or any other flicks for that matter such that the follower can complete the step without prior knowledge of it.

Thanks!

[fascination]

having trouble de-ciphering this

[latingal]

having trouble de-ciphering this

the leading or the mooching? *grin*

I don't have a clue on how to "lead" the actual flicks in the mooch pattern.

As far as what a mooch is, yes it's a jive pattern that involves a rock step, two flicks, rock step, side chasse - and repeat to the other side.

[fascination]

well that explains it...thank you lg...must go put my smooth self down for a nap

[Josh]

I am hoping someone here can help. I come from the school of thought that in latin as well as in standard dancing all changes of direction and timing are lead. This is especially true for syllabus steps. Question: how does the leader, lead the mooch flicks, or any other flicks for that matter such that the follower can complete the step without prior knowledge of it.

Thanks!

Without prior knowledge of it? IMO, can't do it. She has to know how to do flicks. If she can pick up on it and "mirror" you, then it might work. But if a follower doesn't know flicks, don't do the mooch (or any flicks) :-)

[Chris Stratton]

Under more of a social swing interpretation, tempo, and setting, you can probably use a little joint body action fitting into a sort of "expectant" stance on the standing leg to set up a bit of a kick. I'm not good enough at jive to know if the same linkage can be used to get a flick action without excessive upper body movement. I suspect though that it's a similarly going to be a function of having an otherwise "empty" spot, with a subtle physical hint as to how to fill it.

[ACtenDance]

Enter the mooch by doing a fallaway rock, then the flicks are done with a rather distinctive "bouncing" action that is especially unique in bronze latin. Then use the "rudder arm" on the lady's back to close her, dance a side chasse while putting the other arm on the lady's back, use the new "rudder arm" and the man's own action to open her up to the other side... etc...

So many things in latin can be lead by simply dancing your own part with correct posture, tone, poise. Oftentimes, thinking about how to lead isn't so necessary in many figures. This is one of them. Turn yourself to a fallaway position, your partner will do it too. Kick, so will your partner. Rock, your partner will rock. Square off to partner, ... you get the point. Well, as long as you do your own part sufficiently.

[NielsenE]

Well I think I agree more with Josh -- unless the follower has been exposed to kicks/flicks/etc the follower won't have an idea how to fill the time. To me its one of the "basic vocabulary" that must be learned first before the body will expect/allow it to be communicated. Its a "learned natural" response.... Once you get it, its so obvious, but you have to be shown first...

In Bronze Waltz, I often find the same to be true with Whisk and chasse. Until a follower has been shown that crossing behind is a "legitimate" option they'll often fight any/all attempts by a competent (or exceptional) leader to place her there. Ditto for until they've been taught a syncopation in smooth, they won't "trust"/"allow" it. But once seen, its a step for which the lead becomes remarkably light/easy/clear...

[xxtupikxx]

The follower knows flicks, chasses, rocks etc, but they shouldnt know the amalgomation of those steps that make up the mooch figure. The question is how to indicated a flick vs. a chasse within the mooch.

[Chris Stratton]

lack of progression?

[NielsenE]

lack of progressive often coupled with the characteristic bounce as ACTenDance mentioned -- a certain rising/contraction and then release, often coupled with a sliight wind-up/unwind... but again the follower's body has to have been "reminded" that a kick/flick is a reasonable/correct response to this lead at least at some point in their dancing history or you won't get the result you want

[syncopationator]

Since you would be leading this in a social setting, try tapping instead of kicking/flicking. It will be much easier to follow, especially for someone who is not advanced enough to do kicks/flicks.

[Josh]

The follower knows flicks, chasses, rocks etc, but they shouldnt know the amalgomation of those steps that make up the mooch figure. The question is how to indicated a flick vs. a chasse within the mooch.

Well, since we're both on the inside feet after doing the rock to get in RSP, the only kind of chasse she could do we be a compact chasse, if she does one at all. If she does that, then at least we'll still be on the opposite feet, so all would not be lost.

As AC said, often it's tone in the body and arms that lead in latin, versus strictly body movement. Perhaps she will feel that if we were going to do a chasse, my hip might be settled a bit more to the right and she should feel the lean away from her, and this would help her determine a chasse is in order. However, I will be angled in a bit more for the flicks, and if she mirrors this then she should catch the drift. Again, while it's nice to be able to break down a lead to the letter, sometimes, especially in latin, it's indescribable and must be felt to be learned.

[xxtupikxx]

The rhythm of the flicks and that of the chasse feel the same to me. Any thoughts on that the differences are that might be picked up by the follower?

[latingal]

Hmmm....the rhythm for the flicks and that of the chasse do not feel the same to me. The flicks I use a straight, "ah one ah two" rhythm and the chasse I use a 3/4, 1/4, full rhythm.

[Josh]

Hmmm....the rhythm for the flicks and that of the chasse do not feel the same to me. The flicks I use a straight, "ah one ah two" rhythm and the chasse I use a 3/4, 1/4, full rhythm.

Pardon the silly question, but what's the difference to you between "3/4, 1/4, whole" and "ah one ah two" ? :-) (understanding of course that before the first 3/4 there is an "a" or 1/4 from the previous beat that is usually emphasized)

[latingal]

Hi Josh,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the question?

ah one, ah two (for the flick on one leg) - if you are gathering (flicking knee gathered up) and then flicking on "ah one", and then gathering and putting the flicking foot back down on "ah two", that would be 1/2 beat, 1/2 beat, 1/2 beat, 1/2 beat.

For the side or forward chasse, the first step of the chasse gets 3/4 of a beat, the second step gets 1/4 of a beat and the last step gets a full beat.

[NielsenE]

That would be "and 1 and 2" or 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2. " a 1 a 2" is the 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4 timing....

[latingal]

That would be "and 1 and 2" or 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2. " a 1 a 2" is the 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4 timing....

ah...my bad....I should be more careful of my writings (sometimes I forget you can say "ah one, ah two" out loud and have it taken correctly if you are obviously counting 1/2 counts with the music). My apologies, very sloppy of me!

[bjp22tango]

That would be "and 1 and 2" or 1/2, 1/2, 1/2, 1/2. " a 1 a 2" is the 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4 timing....

I would consider "a 1 a 2" to be 1/4, 3/4, 1/4, 3/4 time

as in "1 a 2 3 a 4" would be 3/4, 1/4, 1, 3/4, 1/4, 1

[Josh]

ah...my bad....I should be more careful of my writings (sometimes I forget you can say "ah one, ah two" out loud and have it taken correctly if you are obviously counting 1/2 counts with the music). My apologies, very sloppy of me!

It's all good :-)

For a song with swing character which use triplets (123--223--323--423 == 4 beats), I will dance it:

2/3--1/3--whole (still usually counted the non-musically-correct "1 a 2")

And it is appropriate to do so, as the steps coincide with the triplets.

However, not all songs have this triplet rhythm, and some rock-style swing songs (like Mustang Sally, for example), are better danced with the more traditional (*cough* boring) count here, as it fits the character of the music better:

1/2--1/2--whole (counted "1 and 2")

However, most jive-style songs and all other ECS songs are better danced with the

3/4--1/4--whole (counted the musically correct "1 a 2")

rhythm, IMO.

[latingal]

*grin* from now on I'm just going to use beat values....all these a's, ah's, and and's, I can't keep 'em straight!