NY Times Salsa article

[salsamarty]

The New York Times has an article today, Sunday, July 29th, titled "Salsa Spins Beyond Its Roots". Check it out on the NYT web site. It has an interesting story about the origins of salsa in the NY dance scene. It also seems to imply that there isn't much of a dance scene in NY now or at least one that people, remembering the 70's, think much of. For those of you in the NYC area . . . what's your take on this article?

I'm from the San Francisco Bay area curious about the NYC scene.

[quixotedlm]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/arts/dance/29bloo.html?ex=1343448000&en=d0752013d3cc796b&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

[KiwiMambo]

The dance scene is still strong in NYC. Still my favorite place to go dancing. What the article is getting at is the dance has changed. I see it everywhere, it is not just limited to New York. In the four years I have been in the scene, I have seen a prolifileration of dance companies pop up. There are not enough good dancers to go around so dance companies start accepting beginners. It's all about monthly dues $$$. Beginning leaders learn choreography which includes how to dance fast and spin the crap out of the follow. Their tends to be a lot of back leading because the routine is too difficult for their given skill level. Many on teams rarely go out social dancing anymore. So what you see is people with no social dance skills doing performance moves on the social dance floor. They have never developed and therefore have little feeling and interpretation for the music and connection with ones partner. That is not to say all dancers today are like this. But the ones that truly dance to the music are rare.

I think it's great that turn patterns have evolved but the problem is they have evolved at the expense of the music. We need to get back to the music and connecting with our partner even if that means simplifying our turn patterns. I'm not suggesting we go back to the simplicity of the 60's but simplify it so we bring back in the feeling and flavor of the music.

I am always in awe after a visit to New York. There is such a high standard of social dancing. However, when I talk to dancers that have been in the scene for a long time, they just laugh and say this is nothing compared to the what it used to be. Back then performing was not a big thing so people just came out to dance to the music and have fun.

[noobster]

"All the emphasis on technique has had a negative effect on the clubs. That change is evident at the Taj Lounge. For the past year this Indian restaurant in the Flatiron district has converted itself every Monday night into one of the city’s few remaining salsa clubs with live music.

Under billowing saffron canopies one recent Monday, one couple moved seductively around the dance floor, the man guiding his partner with his fingertips. The band, members of the Spanish Harlem Orchestra and well-known salsa musicians like Bobby Allende and William Torres, played for no more that 15 people, all at some point expertly spinning and snapping around the dance floor."

Huh? They chose Taj as an example to say how club salsa in NYC is dying? Nobody goes to Taj. 15 people is like the max I've ever seen there. It's definitely not representative.

Anyway, I wasn't around in the salsa heyday so can't compare. I do think the article is right in one sense, but wrong in another.

I think the salsa scene in NY has had a schism. There is this one branch that is just like the article describes: studio-trained, on2, spin-happy, ethnically diverse, cultish salsa crowd. They have all their own venues and most of them are dance studios (Link and Cache are the only two popular on2 events I know of that happen at clubs, and Cache isn't really a club.)

Then there is this whole other group of people doing salsa that nobody hears about. They have their own clubs, lots of which are out in the boroughs but there are plenty of little niches in Manhattan for them as well. A lot of the dancing is on1, and nobody goes to a studio to learn how.

I lived in a heavily Hispanic neighborhood in Manhattan for years and my Spanish is pretty good so I got to know a little bit about this scene also. (Actually I knew about it long before I knew about the on2 scene.) It is definitely not dead. It's true that lots of the dancers are older (40s and 50s) but there are plenty of younger ones as well. You can walk around Inwood or Washington Heights and hear people playing salsa on their car stereos and boomboxes and see them dancing in the street in the summer.

I had a dance buddy in the on2 scene who crossed scenes also; I went to a couple of nights when he was DJing for 'the other side' and they were really fun - it was a tiny little hole-in-the-wall bar, the dancers were mostly 40s and 50s, they were all Latino except me and the on2 friend I brought, nobody was doing triple spins but they had sabor for sure.

There are a few places where the scenes can meet. Copacabana was one, which attracted a mix of people from the Latino/on1 scene, out-of-towners who don't know where to go, and a sprinkling of on2-ers who usually bring their own partners. Outdoor summer salsa events like Midsummer Night Swing and Irving Plaza also tend to get a mix. But even at those places the dancers themselves don't mix - people stick to dancing with 'their own kind.'

So anyway, I guess those are the people who were there for the pre-on2 heyday. It's true that there are no more huge clubs catering to them. (Copacabana did actually; and I don't think they closed right? weren't they just supposed to move to 18th street or something?) Probably a lot of the Latino crowd, especially the younger people, has been drawn off to venues with more hip-hop or reggaeton influence. Times move, music changes, there's definitely been a splintering of the scene. C'est la vie. Que sera, sera. Etc. But it's still not small by any means.

The very specialized on2 scene alone still has hundreds of hard-core regular dancers. I'd say there are at least 500 people who go to on2 events several times a week (enough that I'd recognize their faces). And there are many hundreds more who show up less often. (After going out in NYC for 3-6 nights a week x almost 2 years, I was still surprised at how often I'd see incredible dancers I'd never seen before. I think a lot of them either spend a lot of time on performance stuff and don't social dance very often, or burned out on dancing multiple times a week but still show up for a fun night every once in a while.) For the casual scene, there have to be thousands and thousands of dancers.

Anyway. I'd be curious to hear about this from boriken or someone else who's been in the scene for a long time.

[tangotime]

We,ve covered this same topic , over and over.

I personally pre- date pretty much all those mentoned in the article ( back to late fifties ) and way beyond that in Rhumba ( the mother dance ).

Reporters are so provincial, in a subject that encompasses a very diverse culture , and should not be parcelled up, and tied with a neat bow.

There are so many people who had influence on the " scene ", that were not even mentioned . ( on both coasts ) , and , I,m sure, in Chi town and other latino enclaves .

It always seems to be referenced to the seventies ,when mentioned , when in reality, it was the late forties and much of the fifties, when the national surge occured.
The resurgence in the seventies and again in the nineties, belies the fact, that the mambo was still being taught and danced in P/R ,
Cuba , and certain clubs in the states-- not to mention the barrios, for all of those yrs .

The dance schools have always had the dance on its itinery, as a beginners social dance, since the forties .( plus other latin dances ) .

Reporters come on the scene like they have discovered sliced bread-- but the reporting is very superficial , and in some cases misleading.

The " bread " has been baked, eaten , and rebaked many times over ,its just that the general public has recently found the bakery !!!

[MarkoBarko]

Okay...i've been a lurker but i had to chime in with my limited knowledge:

1) Monday night is ALWAYS the slow night because most studios i've gone to have most of their salsa classes and practices on Monday. Also, if you do want to go out, Taj is not the place to go to. Session 73 is supposed to be better (i don't know, i'm always in class or practice :-)

2) Eddie and Maria Torres are not related? huh?? Does she refer to him as her husband just to impress me?

3) Copacabana is not closing because it was unpopular. NYC took the property over through eminent domain to get an extension of the 7 train over to that neighborhood. They are reopening at another location in October.

4) A more representative scene would have been the Latin Quarter on Wednesdays. Huge place, always packed...

I don't know much, but i have that to contribute :)

[tangotime]

Very note worthy !!

[SDsalsaguy]

Okay...i've been a lurker but i had to chime in with my limited knowledge:
Welcome to the ranks of active DF posters MB, and thanks for the comments! :D

[sweavo]

Ok can someone clarify whether the article is in error saying Maria Torres is no relation to Eddie? Either:

1) there is another Maria Torres who isn't the Maria Torres who is married to Eddie (this is what I gathered from the article)
2) Maria and Eddie weren't related back then and Maria's maiden name was also Torres. (This just means it's sloppy writing for not mentioning that they later married)
3) The writer is mistaken.
4) The writer is trying to look like he/she did more research than he/she did.

I'd be interested to know whether the truth is (1) (2) or (other)

Re: the original post, here's my take:

I certainly have the impression that latin music used to be the exotic, dangerous, cutting-edge sound. I wasn't there and don't know what was around, but music must mostly have been played live, and the staple for dancing must have been big band jazz. The Latin rhythms add a whole level of excitement and possibilities to that world.

Amplification brought smaller bands and portable reproduction equipment -- e.g. the boombox, the record deck -- removed barriers of technique and logistics and allowed a lot more creativity in music, leading to funk, disco, hip hop, breaking, garage bands, punk... Now we've had electro boogie, acid house, hard house, 2-step, grunge, gangster rap, speed ****l, turntablism and many other styles and innovations, the latin rhythms do not have a status of being 'new', 'exciting' or 'subversive' in a global context. Sure, people can feel this on a personal level, but it will not capture the collective imagination in that way again.

If you wanted to remanufacture salsa's heyday, it would have to start from the musical context we are in now. But the fact is, we don't listen to music like we did. The iPod and on-demand broadcasting mean that music is personal and self indulgent like it has never been before. Previously, since you needed to get instruments, musicians and a bandleader together to even play music, it was necessarily a social occasion.

These days, the cost-effectiveness of a DJs versus a band means that the soundtrack to our social gatherings is made up of the music that has been commercially recorded rather than a dialog between live artists and the audience.

If something were to reproduce what Latin music and dancing did back in the day, it would come out of something like Krumping, where kids with time on their hands have a channel for their creativity. Whatever it will be, those who "know how" to dance will certainly disapprove of it.

[waltzgirl]

I think there was a Maria Torres who choreographed on So You Think You Can Dance and is not related to Eddie Torres. That Maria choreographed a hustle routine, IIRC.

[tangotime]

Steve-- if you want to get a "feel " for that eras music- Machito-- Tito Rodriguez for big band--- and LaPlaya and La Plata , were sextets that played some kick a-- Mambo . ( didnt put Puente, more modern exposure )
Another interesting choice -- Rene Touzet . danced to these live, on several occasions.
But -- you are right to a certain degree, was sometimes ( particularly Machito ) heavily jazz influenced .

[sweavo]

Steve-- if you want to get a "feel " for that eras music- Machito-- Tito Rodriguez for big band--- and LaPlaya and La Plata , were sextets that played some kick a-- Mambo . ( didnt put Puente, more modern exposure )
Another interesting choice -- Rene Touzet . danced to these live, on several occasions.
But -- you are right to a certain degree, was sometimes ( particularly Machito ) heavily jazz influenced .

Right, but I'm not talking about the influence of jazz on latin music, I'm saying, if latin music was in the foreground, what was in the background?

Today's background is gaudy, multi-faceted, and forever moving, since we have near-instant access to all the world's technologically-enabled back street bands, underground dance music, and bedroom boys. Thus the complexity of Latin music is nothing particularly new, it doesn't leap out as being the definitive dance music.

[tangotime]

Kinda mis understood your post-- Hope i have it right this time-- background ( musically ? ) in the u.k. ted heath , ronnnie scott ,-- the u.s.-- so many to choose from .Of course. all we had was public dance venues and radio .

I think a more interesting q ( I dont have an answer ) would be who influenced the latin musicians ? ( from different genres )

As being definitive-- maybe not to the non latino community .

I have a dj. friend in the states, who is from Colombia. He had a discussion with me about his parents, and the huge collection of Latin music they had acquired over the yrs, from the thirties thru the sixties ( he even played a" vinyl "one nite ! ) was amazing over the sound system .

I guess the main differences for me-- latin wise-- are the clientele that attend clubs today ( music apart ) and, obviously, the advances technically in sound transmission ( funny thing, dont remember speakers, ever, in nite clubs ) and the availibilty of choices .

[tj]

I think a more interesting q ( I dont have an answer ) would be who influenced the latin musicians ? ( from different genres )

As being definitive-- maybe not to the non latino community .


Also, tt, if you read the article, the author suggests that the latino community (well, in NYC at least) has moved on from salsa and has embraced reggaeton and hip hop as the sounds of the day.

And I bet waltzgirl is correct in regards to which Maria Torres is being interviewed. She said that she was in NJ, right? And I don't think Eddie and Maria are from NJ, are they?

And yeah, the article does sound very NYC-centric.

[Pacion]

2) Eddie and Maria Torres are not related? huh?? Does she refer to him as her husband just to impress me?

Ok can someone clarify whether the article is in error saying Maria Torres is no relation to Eddie? Either:

1) there is another Maria Torres who isn't the Maria Torres who is married to Eddie (this is what I gathered from the article)
2) Maria and Eddie weren't related back then and Maria's maiden name was also Torres. (This just means it's sloppy writing for not mentioning that they later married)
3) The writer is mistaken.

There are two Maria Torres. One who is married to THE Eddie Torres, and the other who isn't. I have heard that the two Marias have met each other.

I think the writer could have made it clearer/should have made sure that it was clearer that there are two Maria Torres in existence. :?

[dance234]

This is the Maria Torres to whom the article refers.

http://www.broadwaydancecenter.com/faculty/bios/torres_maria.shtml

[sweavo]

Thanks all for the clarification. I had a feeling there was a 'lesser spotted' Maria Torres!

[tangotime]

Thanks all for the clarification. I had a feeling there was a 'lesser spotted' Maria Torres!


Now THATS funny !!!!!!!!:)

[noobster]

Okay...i've been a lurker but i had to chime in with my limited knowledge:

1) Monday night is ALWAYS the slow night because most studios i've gone to have most of their salsa classes and practices on Monday. Also, if you do want to go out, Taj is not the place to go to. Session 73 is supposed to be better (i don't know, i'm always in class or practice :-)
I loved Session - I was a huge regular even though it was a long trip for a Monday night. Small, friendly, all levels of dance experience. Hands down better than Taj.

3) Copacabana is not closing because it was unpopular. NYC took the property over through eminent domain to get an extension of the 7 train over to that neighborhood. They are reopening at another location in October.
Well I think they were having some financial problems too though, weren't they? The place was enormous and even on Saturday nights it was never packed. I can't imagine how they ever paid their rent. I heard the new space is supposed to be much smaller.

4) A more representative scene would have been the Latin Quarter on Wednesdays. Huge place, always packed...
oh yes, of course! - I guess LQ is the best latter-day counterpart of Palladium, etc. Big club, live music, mostly casual/on1 Latino patrons (but a fair mix of others as well). Very popular.

[dancing_princess]

I live in NJ and tend to prefer to stay local rather than go to NYC (for anything). I went to two lounges in NYC recently and loved watching the on2 dancers (I'm on1), so much that I decided to learn on2.

I think the article might have some points - there are not a lot of places to dance outside of (dance) schools, as far as I can tell. Forgot Mid-Summer Night Swing or the Seaport or Central Park - those are summer time only. Year round, there are few places to go, as far as I know. And those places are somewhat small and crowded. But, wasn't it like that back in the day - 3 or so places to go? Is that so different?

It mentioned alcohol and salser@s (a quote of Henry Knowles). I'm not a drinker so I don't go to drink but to dance, so I didn't care for his comment. I do get the point he's making - club owners make more $ from drinks. I'd rather pay a $15/20 cover than be forced to drink. Who's going to drive me home when I'm too tipsy to drive or who will go to jail for me when I hit someone?

[dance234]

I think the difference is that people used to go out and engage in a collection of things: socializing, flirting, drinking, sometimes eating (the idea of the supper club is almost dead and certainly for dancers, we're like, ugh) and dancing.

Now, we dancers go out to dance, period, and we view things that distract us from that as impediments. The entire vibe in the scene has more in common with an athletic event than anything else. Any eating we do is for fuel, not pleasure. Drinking alcohol is minimal and viewed with suspicion - as it should be considering the level of technical expertise in the dancing now and the danger inherent in being on the floor with so many very rapidly moving couples, many of whom are dancing above their level. Clothing is about minimizing obstruction, and its desireability is tightly linked to functionality on the floor.

I have a friend who was a heavy-hitter in the scene some years ago and when she wants to relive the old days, she gets dressed up and goes to someplace with food and "sophisticated" decor and spends far more time chatting than dancing. Dancing is part of her evening, but not the goal. It's different for me - that kind of night bores me.

[DCR]

On a scale of 1 to 10 I give this artical a 6.5

[noobster]

I think the article might have some points - there are not a lot of places to dance outside of (dance) schools, as far as I can tell. Forgot Mid-Summer Night Swing or the Seaport or Central Park - those are summer time only. Year round, there are few places to go, as far as I know. And those places are somewhat small and crowded.
That is absolutely not true. There is at least one good salsa choice every night of the week, and often several conflicting ones. For the studio scene, yeah, the better ones are mostly studio socials - but there are still two large weekly club events and lots of smaller clubs that cater to the studio crowd.
Re small and crowded, well some of them are small, others are enormous, and the good ones are all crowded, just like everything else in NYC. ;)

(OT: you are in Teaneck and you don't go into the city to dance? You are missing out!)

Now, we dancers go out to dance, period, and we view things that distract us from that as impediments
Again, I'd like to stress that this is true only for the studio dancers.

The casual dancers - a much larger population, and the true heirs of the '70s era clubs - like a little food, a little drink, and a little socializing with their dancing.

[Lofland]

Without all the studio dancers (like me), the salsa scene all over the world would be a LOT smaller. We keep a lot of clubs in business and we buy a lot of the music, including the old Fania classics. There are instructors out there who are teaching about musicality and trying to bring it back into the dance. Hopefully, this trend will grow. We won't ever have the cultural knowledge of the Puerto Ricans and Cubans, but that's a natural side-effect of salsa spreading beyond its original community.

[Catarina]

I think the difference is that people used to go out and engage in a collection of things: socializing, flirting, drinking, sometimes eating (the idea of the supper club is almost dead and certainly for dancers, we're like, ugh) and dancing.

Now, we dancers go out to dance, period, and we view things that distract us from that as impediments. The entire vibe in the scene has more in common with an athletic event than anything else. Any eating we do is for fuel, not pleasure. Drinking alcohol is minimal and viewed with suspicion - as it should be considering the level of technical expertise in the dancing now and the danger inherent in being on the floor with so many very rapidly moving couples, many of whom are dancing above their level. Clothing is about minimizing obstruction, and its desireability is tightly linked to functionality on the floor.

I have a friend who was a heavy-hitter in the scene some years ago and when she wants to relive the old days, she gets dressed up and goes to someplace with food and "sophisticated" decor and spends far more time chatting than dancing. Dancing is part of her evening, but not the goal. It's different for me - that kind of night bores me.


I have no sense of what the Chicago scene is like compared to NYC, but reading this post makes me think of one spot here in Chicago (not that it's the only one, but I'm aware of it, with my limited knowledge). It's a nice Puerto Rican restaurant located right in the mainly Puerto Rican neighborhood of the city; it has great food, live bands almost every weekend, and jam-packed for dinner/bar/dancing crowd. But it's not "the dancing" crowd. It's couples, dates, and the mature crowd, etc. I stopped in one night just to check it out & didn't recognize a single face (and I doubt any women had brought a change of shoes to go from dinner to dancing!) There were a handful of couples dancing, as it was very crowded and the dance floor was an ambiguous and narrow area between the bar, the band, the door, and the bar tables.
From what I've heard, though, it's like others on this thread have described: great dancing, moves that are not en vogue right now, but that are still great, completely social atmosphere, mixed with food, liquor, and lotsa smoke. In some ways, it is very much like the designated club spots for each night of the week, yet it's not where "the dancers" go. It's just different.

[DCR]

I have no sense of what the Chicago scene is like compared to NYC, but reading this post makes me think of one spot here in Chicago (not that it's the only one, but I'm aware of it, with my limited knowledge). It's a nice Puerto Rican restaurant located right in the mainly Puerto Rican neighborhood of the city; it has great food, live bands almost every weekend, and jam-packed for dinner/bar/dancing crowd. But it's not "the dancing" crowd. It's couples, dates, and the mature crowd, etc. I stopped in one night just to check it out & didn't recognize a single face (and I doubt any women had brought a change of shoes to go from dinner to dancing!) There were a handful of couples dancing, as it was very crowded and the dance floor was an ambiguous and narrow area between the bar, the band, the door, and the bar tables.
From what I've heard, though, it's like others on this thread have described: great dancing, moves that are not en vogue right now, but that are still great, completely social atmosphere, mixed with food, liquor, and lotsa smoke. In some ways, it is very much like the designated club spots for each night of the week, yet it's not where "the dancers" go. It's just different.

I been there just a few weeks ago during the Salsa Festival in Chi-town and I forgot the name of the place.

[tangotime]

I think the difference is that people used to go out and engage in a collection of things: socializing, flirting, drinking, sometimes eating (the idea of the supper club is almost dead and certainly for dancers, we're like, ugh) and dancing.

Now, we dancers go out to dance, period, and we view things that distract us from that as impediments. The entire vibe in the scene has more in common with an athletic event than anything else. Any eating we do is for fuel, not pleasure. Drinking alcohol is minimal and viewed with suspicion - as it should be considering the level of technical expertise in the dancing now and the danger inherent in being on the floor with so many very rapidly moving couples, many of whom are dancing above their level. Clothing is about minimizing obstruction, and its desireability is tightly linked to functionality on the floor.

I have a friend who was a heavy-hitter in the scene some years ago and when she wants to relive the old days, she gets dressed up and goes to someplace with food and "sophisticated" decor and spends far more time chatting than dancing. Dancing is part of her evening, but not the goal. It's different for me - that kind of night bores me.



SO so so so so TRUE !!!!!!!!!!

[sweavo]

I think the difference is that people used to go out and engage in a collection of things: socializing, flirting, drinking, sometimes eating (the idea of the supper club is almost dead and certainly for dancers, we're like, ugh) and dancing.

Now, we dancers go out to dance, period, and we view things that distract us from that as impediments. The entire vibe in the scene has more in common with an athletic event than anything else. Any eating we do is for fuel, not pleasure. Drinking alcohol is minimal and viewed with suspicion - as it should be considering the level of technical expertise in the dancing now and the danger inherent in being on the floor with so many very rapidly moving couples, many of whom are dancing above their level. Clothing is about minimizing obstruction, and its desireability is tightly linked to functionality on the floor.

I have a friend who was a heavy-hitter in the scene some years ago and when she wants to relive the old days, she gets dressed up and goes to someplace with food and "sophisticated" decor and spends far more time chatting than dancing. Dancing is part of her evening, but not the goal. It's different for me - that kind of night bores me.

Heh. I was with you right up until the last sentence! This sounds like heaven to me! Since I've been in demand as a leader ever since I started, I have scarcely sat down for a chat since I got into salsa. I've had 6 years of encountering dozens of women, yet I would only say I knew a handful in any meaningful way.

[dance234]

I have friends in the scene whom I see socially outside of the socials, but it's a light dinner before or the 'after-party' afterwards. There we actually relax and occasionally talk about other things besides dancing. I enjoy learning what other folks do for a living - it's often very surprising.

But at the socials, fuggetaboutit. At many of them there are barely enough chairs for 5% of the people in the room to sit at a time... it's just not about that.

[samina]

SO so so so so TRUE !!!!!!!!!!

ditto that, absolutely...

[dancing_princess]

I didn't say that there aren't places, just not oodles (or I didn't meant o imply that, since I did).

I don't do the NYC (but mostly likely will since I'm now learning on2) thing often. I lived/worked there and hated it. Country girl at heart, I guess. My old work friends haven't seen me in a year b/c I refused to go to NYC. :-)

That is absolutely not true. There is at least one good salsa choice every night of the week, and often several conflicting ones. For the studio scene, yeah, the better ones are mostly studio socials - but there are still two large weekly club events and lots of smaller clubs that cater to the studio crowd.
Re small and crowded, well some of them are small, others are enormous, and the good ones are all crowded, just like everything else in NYC. ;)

(OT: you are in Teaneck and you don't go into the city to dance? You are missing out!)

[dance234]

There used to be more, it's true.

[DCR]

You should try WestGate Lounge up in Nyack I think you'll like this place. take care and stay tuned.


I didn't say that there aren't places, just not oodles (or I didn't meant o imply that, since I did).

I don't do the NYC (but mostly likely will since I'm now learning on2) thing often. I lived/worked there and hated it. Country girl at heart, I guess. My old work friends haven't seen me in a year b/c I refused to go to NYC. :-)

[dancing_princess]

You should try WestGate Lounge up in Nyack I think you'll like this place. take care and stay tuned.

Are you kidding!!!! I LOVE West Gate. My old dance friends and I used to go a lot last year. :-) I was last there in this past March, I think.

[DCR]

Are you kidding!!!! I LOVE West Gate. My old dance friends and I used to go a lot last year. :-) I was last there in this past March, I think.

How nice....I have not been there in a while. I have to go back there some Saturday. Do you know Hilda and Geo? they teach or used to.

[dancing_princess]

How nice....I have not been there in a while. I have to go back there some Saturday. Do you know Hilda and Geo? they teach or used to.

No, I don't know them. I've never taken the class. Hey, if you go anytime soon, let me know and I'll try to make it.