Carolina Shag

[pygmalion]

What is it? Does anybody here do it? All I've heard is that it's "weird." A direct quote, LOL. I've also observed that some people love it deeply. What's the deal with shag?

[suek]

Carolina Shag is weird. And it's danced to the best freaking music. They call it beach music. Don't understand the category name, but here are a few sample titles: Chain Gang, Otis Redding; HuckleBuck, Otis Redding; Shake Rattle And Roll, Joe Turner; Shake Your Money-Maker, Paul Butterfield Blues Band; Lonely teardrops, Jackie Wilson; grass shackin; Juke, Little Walter; Bright Lights Big City, Jimmy Walker; Trickle Trickle, Breeze; Ruby Ruby, Drifters It's a mix of R&B and Blues. I love it.

The dance is strange. More arm lead than body lead. Interesting footwork. I understand my class may be one of the only groups doing this dance on the west coast...great! Another dance I'm doing that no one else knows.

How did this happen? I'm studying Balboa and Carolina Shag and I live in a town with about 2.5 leads for each. Lucky me.

[Swing Kitten]

I've wanted to learn some shag (Carolina or Collegiate) but didn't get to it during my brief visit back home.

[pygmalion]

Suek: If that's the music, I've gotta learn this dance.

and Swing Kitten: What is collegiate shag?

[Sagitta]

C Another dance I'm doing that no one else knows.

How did this happen? I'm studying Balboa and Carolina Shag and I live in a town with about 2.5 leads for each. Lucky me.

Well I'm always willing to learn. :) I am getting the moonwalk as it was described in another thread today, and am available to learn something else as well. Any websites with free video clips that show the moves, or ones that describe the basic moves? By the way I learnt a little balboa last year. Must try and remember what I learnt, and practice it before I forget!!!

Suek. You are talked about following. Do you do leading as well? If so, how much following and how much leading do you do? (I don't know why but this topic has a certain fascination with me? [shrug])

[suek]

Suek. You are talked about following. Do you do leading as well? If so, how much following and how much leading do you do? (I don't know why but this topic has a certain fascination with me? [shrug])Sagitta, I lead a (very) little. It seems like now is the time for me to learn more leading, as it's part of the training for world-class follows. I lead a little balboa and beginning lindy. And every second I spend as a leader makes me understand following better. Not only that, it makes me want to apologize for being heavy and hard to lead and adds to my resolve to never ever do that again.

[jon]

What is it? Does anybody here do it? All I've heard is that it's "weird." A direct quote, LOL. I've also observed that some people love it deeply. What's the deal with shag?

It's an swing dance variant developed in the Carolinas and practiced mostly in the Southeast, to aforementioned music. A few years ago there was a good deal of crossover between WCS and Shag.

For a gentle introduction you could go to the Atlanta Grand Nationals in May - it's by far the biggest WCS/Shag crossover event. Of course they have their own events including SOS (http://www.shagdance.com/) at Myrtle Beach.

If you are not very tolerant of smoke, be careful in attending pure-Shag events, as heavy smoking is much more common in that population than among WCS and Lindy dancers.

[Sagitta]

If you are not very tolerant of smoke, be careful in attending pure-Shag events, as heavy smoking is much more common in that population than among WCS and Lindy dancers.

Thanks for the warning!! That's it! No pure shag events for me then!!

[HepcatBob]

They call it beach music.

Don't forget:

The Drifters
The Coasters
The Tams
General Johnson
etc., ad nauseum

I grew up and still live in NC. There are clubs around here that do nothing but Carolina Shag. It's sickening!

[HepcatBob]

What is it? ... What's the deal with shag?

Triple step forward,
Triple step back,
Kick-ball-change.
repeat

And remember, it's all done from the waist down. Your upper body doesn't move. That's so you don't spill your beer while your dancing.

[Sagitta]

Kick-ball-change?

Can you explain that, please, in further detail?

[redhead]

jive?

[Jmatthew]

kick ball change is:

jazz kick forward (left foot)
step (left foot)
step (right foot)

in the timing of a triple step.
I think you can do it on either foot. I generally do it left-left-right (as a lead). I've gotten into the bad habit of doing it more than I do actual triple steps, something I need to work on.

[HepcatBob]

There are clubs around here that do nothing but Carolina Shag.

Oh, yeah. The shag clubs can be good for a Lindy Bomb. My g/f and I do it occasionally.

[pygmalion]

Hi HepcatBob!

Sorry I missed your shag posts. That sounds like a fun and fairly easy dance to try. Cool. I already have the kick-ball-change. I like to pop that into my ECS and WCS for fun. (Amazing how hard some people find it to do kick-ball-change *shrug*)
So it should be relatively simple to get started with shag. And any dance you can do without spilling your beer, is a good dance, in my book. LOL.

[LindyKeya]

As has been mentioned, Carolina Shag is quite similar to WCS. I haven't been dancing much of either lately, and I can't really separate them in my head at the moment. Although the basic step is different, the feeling is fundamentally the same (at least in one's legs... leads/frame for the two are more different, as I understand it).
Disclaimer: I don't know much Carolina Shag, so I could be wrong here!

[HepcatBob]

Hi HepcatBob!

Sorry I missed your shag posts.

Oh, you didn't miss 'em by much. Besides, they're not goin' anywhere. :wink: :wink:

JMatthew, thanks for the kick-ball-change explanation.

[Sockhopper]

Jackie & Charlie Womble, national Carolina Shag winners repeatedly, teach Shag's 6-count basic thus:
-triple (forward-together-back)
-triple (back-forward-back)
-rock-step

Their 'Basics Plus' tape has about 20 moves on it. It's great teaching and excellent value. You really need to see Shag danced: trying to learn from the step pattern I or anyone printd online won't give you a picture of what Shag looks or feels like. I know - I've been there! It was a waste of time that I could have spent learning it for real, for little money.

I came into Carolina Shag from Lindy, WCS and Hustle. Shag feels and looks completely different from those dances. It's good for rock-and-roll music, some soul, or any pop music that's too fast to WCS to and doesn't really swing (eg. music for Lindy). But people also dance Shag slow.

BTW, Carolina Shag is a different dance from St.Louis Shag. Most people who say they do Shag mean that from Carolina. If you dance Lindy or WCS, it's not hard to learn. With the caveat that it takes some getting used to the posture (the fact you don't use your upper body or your hips; it's all legs and feet with no zero hip action). The arm position (the post) is steady throughout and must be maintained for the basic step (above) to do what it's intended to do.

Good luck with learning!

[pygmalion]

Cool, Sockhopper! 8) And thanks. :D

[Diavo]

Hi, I'm curious as to what I'm about to explain actually is. By way of background, Tom Koerner (in DC) taught me this at a dance and said it was a Shag for very fast music. Now that I've seen www.jump.i.am it looks like their "Jump Feet".

hop left
hop left
hop right
hop right
hop left
hop right

Thanks,
Diavo

[pygmalion]

Hi Diavo. Welcome to the forums. :D

All those hops look unfamiliar to me, but maybe one of our swing dancers can help you. In the meanwhile, I hope you enjoy yourself in the forums -- nice people, and interesting conversation. :wink: 8)

[d nice]

Thats Colligiate Shag (also known as Double Shag).
It used to be real popular here in CA, but with the practical death of Hollywood Style, Colligate Shag is rarely seen. Most people out here opt for Balboa, Bal-Swing, Charleston, or just fast Lindy Hop.

There are some people who still do it, but not even close to the numbers a few years ago.

[Diavo]

Thanks P, I've been a lurker for a while and decided to register. I've been swing dancing since '98.
The aforementioned "hops" I learned about 3 (4?! time flies) years ago in DC.

--Diavo

[Sagitta]

Welcome Diavo!! Glad that you decided to stop lurking and join in the action!! :D

[Diavo]

Thanks dnice, steps people posted in this post had be wondering. I'm on the East Coast (Baltimore/DC area) and if my regular partner & I start shagging everyone looks scandalized, it's great! :lol:

--Diavo

[DWise1]

Suek: If that's the music, I've gotta learn this dance.

and Swing Kitten: What is collegiate shag?
Swing Kitten probably knows more, but I've done some beginners' collegiate shag classes and since she hasn't answered yet ... .

Mostly, it's fast foot movement and moderate to slow body movement. We were told that when done right, onlookers should be able to see that you're doing something neat, but not quite be able to figure out the footwork.

Six-count. Lead's steps, follow mirrors:
1. Step left.
2. Hop on left foot. Normally style by a small sweeping movement that "taps" the right toe behind the left heel.
3 and 4 repeat 1 and 2 on the other side:
3. Step right.
4. Hop on right foot, sweeping "tap" left toe behind right heel.
5 and 6 are "run - run":
5. Step left. At the same time slide the right foot back.
6. Step right. At the same time slide the left foot back.

You hold the partner pretty much like in Balboa, chest-to-chest. It's mainly a body lead as in Balboa. There's a bit of a bounce, but we were being advised to try to smooth it out. Though I understand from another source ( http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3colgit.htm ) that collegiate dances tended to get rather bouncy and wild. And like the Balboa, it can be used as a "resting step" to fast music.

Turns are done. Mainly we learned the woman's turn as a kind of apache done on the run-run. Also a side-by-side promenade. Other than that, many swing-type moves can be done.

StreetSwing also discusses Shag at http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3shagco.htm .

Our instructor says he'll teach us some St. Louis Shag soon.

[DWise1]

Jackie & Charlie Womble, national Carolina Shag winners repeatedly, teach Shag's 6-count basic thus:
-triple (forward-together-back)
-triple (back-forward-back)
-rock-step

Being strictly SoCal, my only exposure to Carolina Shag has been through "Shag: The Movie". But your description of the steps sounds very much like what somebody recently demonstrated as what he had learned as "East Coast Swing" -- and admittedly, as a beginner trying to remember steps he hadn't practiced in a while, he didn't do very well. My own ECS training is "rock-step, triple, triple" which seems just the most natural way of doing it, so I always pay attention when somebody presents a "weird" way like he did.

Could it be that some teachers are taking Carolina Shag and presenting it as ECS?

PS
By way of introduction, I was a completely untrainable non-dancer for decades, started learning a few years ago with Salsa (discontinued for now), finally learned to hear the beat about 1.5 years ago while learning WCS (returning to it), and have been learning ECS and Lindy for the past year. I've learned a bit about various other dances along the way, but Lindy is my passion.

[jon]

Could it be that some teachers are taking Carolina Shag and presenting it as ECS?

Unlikely. You just happened to learn a different way. Most of the ECS teachers I've seen start on the slow/triple.

[Genesius Redux]

Thanks for the basics, everyone!

Jackie & Charlie Womble, national Carolina Shag winners repeatedly, teach Shag's 6-count basic thus:
-triple (forward-together-back)
-triple (back-forward-back)
-rock-step


In general, kick-ball-change can be substituted for a rock step in most swing variants, right? I tend to do it more when I'm in an open position with my partner.

Questions: I'm having trouble figuring out the first triple. Did someone say that the girl mirrors the boy (sorry for old fashioned gender)? Does that mean that both people step forward? How do you avoid stepping on each other?

I'm guess that the lead would have to come mostly from the arms, right? Can someone describe the lead?

The second triple--just like an anchor step?

[jon]

Questions: I'm having trouble figuring out the first triple. Did someone say that the girl mirrors the boy (sorry for old fashioned gender)? Does that mean that both people step forward? How do you avoid stepping on each other?

By starting far enough apart. Shag is a slotted dance like WCS, but the connection is very different as you're moving in the opposite direction from your partner, rather than the same direction. So the connection doesn't have the tension/"away" nature of a WCS sugarpush.

[Genesius Redux]

Being strictly SoCal, my only exposure to Carolina Shag has been through "Shag: The Movie". But your description of the steps sounds very much like what somebody recently demonstrated as what he had learned as "East Coast Swing" -- and admittedly, as a beginner trying to remember steps he hadn't practiced in a while, he didn't do very well. My own ECS training is "rock-step, triple, triple" which seems just the most natural way of doing it, so I always pay attention when somebody presents a "weird" way like he did.


Hey DWise1-

Nice to meetcha!

I learned ECS as triple-triple-rock; timing-wise it doesn't matter whether you start on the rock or the triple, since it's a 6 count basic, and you're going to be going on and off the phrase anyway. But lead-wise, I was also taught to release my hip as a pick-up into the first triple, which I originally learned as a side step to have it refined into a forward step later.

It sounds like we're going the route of the mambo-salsa thread, in trying to figure out what makes a dance a coherent dance. If the motion back and forth is the same motion as ECS, then what makes the Shag a different dance? Or if it's more like WCS with the slotted movement, what again distinguishes Shag?

I'd also heard the same thing about not spilling your beer applied to WCS, only there the analogy was to a mixed drink and a cigarette. Is the only difference in the kind of drinks you're holding? :wink:

Definitely dazed and confused,

Genesius

[Genesius Redux]

By starting far enough apart. Shag is a slotted dance like WCS, but the connection is very different as you're moving in the opposite direction from your partner, rather than the same direction. So the connection doesn't have the tension/"away" nature of a WCS sugarpush.

Oh--okay, thank you, Jon--that answers some of my questions in what I posted while you were posting this.

Do you start with a two-hand hold? What happens to my upper body, especially as I move from the first triple to the anchor step? And what do I do with arms/elbows?

[jon]

Do you start with a two-hand hold? What happens to my upper body, especially as I move from the first triple to the anchor step? And what do I do with arms/elbows?

Disclaimer: I don't really know much Shag despite having lived in Chapel Hill for a decade, the swing and shag communities didn't cross over much at the time.

That said, there is a fairly standard Shag starter step and throwout from closed, but the basic is done in one-hand L-R hold. Shag upper body styling is (at least historically) relaxed and upright, most of the action happens below the waist with lots of fancy footwork for the advanced dancers. Free arms stay close to the body, the better not to spill your beer :-)

[d nice]

Carolina Shag is not ECS. ECS has footwork that travels side to side or in place when in open position, and either side to side or forward and back in closed position. Carolina Shag's basic is always forward back regarldess of the position (as far as I know).

In your basic open position Shag has little to no arm tension at all, the dancers move in towards each other and away in an "accordian" fashion.

As to how you don't step on each other, it is more than just starting far enough apart, though that obviousely is a very important aspect. There is also frame. IF both partners have an engaged frame you'll find it very difficult to step on your partners feet.

[Genesius Redux]

Carolina Shag is not ECS. ECS has footwork that travels side to side or in place when in open position, and either side to side or forward and back in closed position. Carolina Shag's basic is always forward back regarldess of the position (as far as I know).

In your basic open position Shag has little to no arm tension at all, the dancers move in towards each other and away in an "accordian" fashion.

As to how you don't step on each other, it is more than just starting far enough apart, though that obviousely is a very important aspect. There is also frame. IF both partners have an engaged frame you'll find it very difficult to step on your partners feet.

Hey d nice! Loooooove your posts! Thank you!

Okay--so if I think I'm getting the idea--you step into a slight in connection on the first triple and then push off into an away connection for the anchor step, then shift from a back to an in connection in the rock step or kick-ball-change? Is that right?

It feels like there should be a lot less hip involved than in ECS? Again, a similarity to WCS?

[etchuck]

[quote=Genesius Redux]Disclaimer: I don't really know much Shag despite having lived in Chapel Hill for a decade, the swing and shag communities didn't cross over much at the time.

Quite frankly, I don't know if they still do around here. Maybe in one or two clubs in Raleigh (Loafers, specifically) that will specialize in it.

[jon]

Quite frankly, I don't know if they still do around here. Maybe in one or two clubs in Raleigh (Loafers, specifically) that will specialize in it.

It was never done in CH, way too many Damned Yankees there. Around 1997 when I left was when the swing dancers were starting to hang out a bit at Loafer's, and that's grown since there's a regular swing night there now. There was and AFAIK still is Shag periodically at the Longbranch and other venues too.

Of course Loafer's typically had so few patrons that we wondered how they stayed in business - Mary Lou thought they were really a numbers-running front :-)

[d nice]

Hey d nice! Loooooove your posts! Thank you!

Okay--so if I think I'm getting the idea--you step into a slight in connection on the first triple and then push off into an away connection for the anchor step, then shift from a back to an in connection in the rock step or kick-ball-change? Is that right?

It feels like there should be a lot less hip involved than in ECS? Again, a similarity to WCS?

Don't think of it as an anchor step... the further away you can get yourself from wcs terminology and methodology the easier it will be to do shag. Yes there are definitely some similarities, but wcs is generally taught using some serious absolutes that will mess you up if you bring them into another swing dance.

There is the ever so slightest in connection on the first triple, and you just let it disolve away in the second triple, turning into the slightest out connection on the step-step. The idea is that the hand is on a post and that you should be able to dance with your partner with your hands just touching each other, no actual "grip" being used... a little hard to describe correctly through words, but easy to demonstrate.

[Genesius Redux]

Thanks D Nice! I've got kind of an idea from your description--I guess I'll have to find someone who knows the dance to really show me! 8)

[HepcatBob]

I'd also heard the same thing about not spilling your beer applied to WCS, only there the analogy was to a mixed drink and a cigarette. Is the only difference in the kind of drinks you're holding? :wink:


Mixed drinks and cigarettes are allowed in Carolina shag as well.
:cheers:

[etchuck]

Link: www.loafersbeachclub.com .

Actually Loafers recently moved. Something having to do with their old place having been flooded from recent rain last year... hmm...

I think nowadays they get a lot of people, esp for WCS and shag nights. I've gone a couple of times for WCS and ECS, but I wasn't impressed enough to become a club member.

But you're right... I don't think there is a place in Chapel Hill that does shag. :cry: