Thinking about entering my first Pro/Am competition

[HoboChilli]

I have been taking private lessons at my DVIDA studio for the past 7 months. They recently released their pricing for the October DVIDA Pro/AM competition in Las Vegas. Its $2,000 including hotel plus $40 per event.

Is this typical? I have no idea whats a reasonable price. If I decide to do it, I'll definitely have to incur credit card debt.

[waltzgirl]

Welcome to DF!

Warning: you'll get hooked--on dancing, on competing, and on DF!

:D

The pice doesn't seem to be too out of line for a pro-am comp, assuming it's all-inclusive for entry fees, pro fees, etc. Does it include meals?

One way to keep comp costs low is to go a la carte, if your studio allows it. By paying for each element separately, you have better control over costs. There are some comps I can drive to, so I don't stay in the hotel. When I travel, I often compete in only one style, so I only need to stay in the hotel two nights and don't get the meal package. My pro is great about finding ways for me to compete inexpensively (relatively, anyway).

I would think twice about incurring credit card debt for a comp, unless you're *sure* you can pay it off within a few months. If you like competing, you'll want to do more, and what then? More debt? Not a good idea.

If competing will be a one-time or once in a blue moon thing, I'd consider waiting until you got a little more dance experience. Have you participated in any studio showcases? That is a good way to get your feet wet and do a "dress rehearsal" for competing. For me, anyway, I have more confidence and enjoy a comp more when I feel confident in my dancing and have had some live-audience experience.

BTW, what is a DVIDA studio? My studio uses the DVIDA syllabus, but AFAIK, isn't affiliated with DVIDA in any other way. Are they starting a chain?

[HoboChilli]

I've recently completed a studio showcase. I really enjoyed the experience. Having the showcase date coming closer each day motivated me to nail the technique and choreography. My instructor and I performed an East Coast Swing routine while most other students performed smooth routines. We got a lot of compliments from other instructors as well as people attending the showcase.

I definitely got the addiction to performing in front of a group of people after the showcase. I wish I could do a "do-over" cause I missed a triple step. I blanked out a split second at one point feeling disoriented with the spot light shining in my face and having everyone's attention on me. But my excellent instructor got me back on track.

The other option is to choreograph more dance routines with my instructor that we can perform during a studio dance party. I think I'll go this route for now.

Yes, my studio follow the DVIDA syllabus. I don't think they're a chain.

[waltzgirl]

That's what I would do. I did my first comp after 6 mos. of dancing, but it was mostly about trying to remember my routines and regretting the missteps. Now, of course, I regret the technique and performance mistakes I make, but that's a more satisfying agony, I think.

[latingal]

Welcome to DF HoboChilli! Hope to see you around the boards here at DF.

[fascination]

depends on what you are doing at the comp...but I wouldn't be surprised if 2K was reasonable

[JANATHOME]

What does $40 per event mean? Is that the cost of each session or is that $40.00 per dance? If per event and not cost for each dance then it is sounds reasonable to me.

[SPratt74]

What does $40 per event mean? Is that the cost of each session or is that $40.00 per dance? If per event and not cost for each dance then it is sounds reasonable to me.

I would assume that's per event as usually the events are pretty reasonable from what I have seen from my research.

But yeah, I agree with the others that it's a good idea to try to slim down the cost as much as possible for your first cost. Even though, I'd like to enter into everything during my first comp., I know that won't be ideal for me. So, I want to enter into the things that I know we'll have our routines done etc. Also, you could try cutting down other costs as well by sharing rooms or what have you. But $2000 from what I have read in past threads isn't that much (unless you are broke like me :D).

[DancinAnne]

What does $40 per event mean? Is that the cost of each session or is that $40.00 per dance? If per event and not cost for each dance then it is sounds reasonable to me.

It could very well be $40 per dance. It's unlikely to be $40 for the entire event. When I've pro-amed, I paid per dance, plus entry fees and all other associated costs. Overall price sounds okay to me.

[NielsenE]

My first pro-am comp was about 2000 (actually I think it was 1776 in a interesting quirk of costs :) ) But that was a local event that I could drive to all three days and didn't stay at the hotel. I did get most of the meals. Think that was about 20 single dance entries and two championships and a showcase entry

So your price sounds like $2000 for hotel, meals, registration fee, session tickets. sounds a little high if not already including say 10 entries .... or does that already include airfare, in which case its probably reasonable.
Still sounds a little on the high side to me, but the $40 per dance is better thanthe $50 I'm used to and that $10 can add up if you do a lot of entries...

[tanya_the_dancer]

It's a bit on the high side for me, since it does not include the entries. Does it include your teacher's fee and expenses as well? If yes, then it might be OK. How many days is the competition?

[HoboChilli]

The cost includes teacher's fee, entry fee, 1 meal per day, double occupancy checking in Thursday and checking out Sunday. Travel expense is extra.

I guess $40/dance, but I don't know what that means either way. If I compete and move on to the next round of eliminations, do I have to pay another $40 again?

[kimV6]

So your price sounds like $2000 for hotel, meals, registration fee, session tickets. sounds a little high if not already including say 10 entries .... or does that already include airfare, in which case its probably reasonable.
Still sounds a little on the high side to me, but the $40 per dance is better thanthe $50 I'm used to and that $10 can add up if you do a lot of entries...

wow. i always heard that pro-am was crazy expensive, but now that someone has put a number to it... that's almost more than i made all last summer. never have i (and consequently my wallet) been happier to be in an am-am partnership.

[tanya_the_dancer]

The cost includes teacher's fee, entry fee, 1 meal per day, double occupancy checking in Thursday and checking out Sunday. Travel expense is extra.

I guess $40/dance, but I don't know what that means either way. If I compete and move on to the next round of eliminations, do I have to pay another $40 again?

This seems a bit on the high side for me then.

Btw, you don't have to pay again if there were semi-finals and you made the finals.

[Casey]

Some teachers do charge if you make more rounds. I talked to one last year who charged $150/round for a scholarship and another one a few years ago who charged $90/dance and counted each dance in each round separately.

[tanya_the_dancer]

My first pro-am comp was about 2000 (actually I think it was 1776 in a interesting quirk of costs :) ) But that was a local event that I could drive to all three days and didn't stay at the hotel. I did get most of the meals. Think that was about 20 single dance entries and two championships and a showcase entry

So your price sounds like $2000 for hotel, meals, registration fee, session tickets. sounds a little high if not already including say 10 entries .... or does that already include airfare, in which case its probably reasonable.
Still sounds a little on the high side to me, but the $40 per dance is better thanthe $50 I'm used to and that $10 can add up if you do a lot of entries...

Just curious, which comps charge $50 per single dance? The only one I know is USDSC, everything else I've been to including OSB is less than that, with $35 being a sort of average.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Some teachers do charge if you make more rounds. I talked to one last year who charged $150/round for a scholarship and another one a few years ago who charged $90/dance and counted each dance in each round separately.

My teacher charges a flat fee per day.

[dance234]

Some teachers do charge if you make more rounds. I talked to one last year who charged $150/round for a scholarship and another one a few years ago who charged $90/dance and counted each dance in each round separately.


OH my god.

[fascination]

echo that..another reason I love my pro...

[waltzgirl]

A $40 or $50 per dance fee usually includes the studio or teacher's markup. A common practice is to add $15 or $20 to the per-dance fee the comp actually charges.

[syncopationator]

While $2K + entries is not unheard of, its definitely a lot of $$. If you are wealthy then what the heck, its only money. If you are like most of us and have a second mortgage on your home so you can afford pro-am competitions, then I suggest pricing this out a la carte.

I've been going to the Holiday Classic in Las Vegas the past two years and plan on going again this year. Not including my flight, total cost last year was roughly $2,100 which inlcuded pro fees and expenses (hotel and air fare split with another student), 10 single dance entries and two scholarships. Keep in mind that the entry fees alone were about $660, which means that I spent roughly $1,440 on pro and hotel.

If your studio allows it, go a la carte, it will save you a few hundred bucks.

[Casey]

It's an endlessly alarming subject, for sure. I just read Glamour Addiction by Juliet McMains. It seems to be her dissertation for her doctorate. She did her undergrad work at Harvard and got hooked on ballroom dancing and ended up teaching at a Fred Astaire studio and then competing professionally. Her point by point analysis is often something that all of us have noticed, but putting it together and getting a doctorate out of it is admirable.

One of her main themes is the way ballroom has developed in order to foster competition in order to keep the money rolling in. Ballroom dance teachers make a living from the industry perception that there's a right way to do something. Thousands of ballroom dance teachers support themselves only by teaching competitive dancing (not social dancing), but very few salsa and West Coast swing teachers can support themselves only by teaching because improvisation remains a large part of those dances and the goal of teaching is to get someone to the point where they can do improv and social dance. In ballroom, the money is in competing. And there are many ways to come up with charges.

[fascination]

mercifully, I pay no studio fee at all and pro is very reasonable...still, it is wise to price comps out in various ways...I price them out on and off package and I would be leary of any pro/studio who wouldn't be forthcoming with that...if you don't care about the dinners and all that jazz...don't pay for them...if you don't want to stay at that hotel, don't.......as with all things, an informed consumer can save alot of money

[Josh]

Thousands of ballroom dance teachers support themselves only by teaching competitive dancing (not social dancing), but very few salsa and West Coast swing teachers can support themselves only by teaching because improvisation remains a large part of those dances and the goal of teaching is to get someone to the point where they can do improv and social dance. In ballroom, the money is in competing. And there are many ways to come up with charges.

That's an interesting point... I'll provide another perspective, that hopefully will not be opening a can of worms. :-)

Since I began as a salsa-only teacher, I can say from experience that a more important reason (IMO) that salsa/WCS/etc dancers can't support themselves from teaching alone is that social dancers are, as a whole, unwilling to pay for consistent private lessons. Most social dancers dance as a hobby only, and are satisfied with a group class or two per week, and the occasional private lesson. They do not associate the same value of a private lesson as a competitive dancer. Some salsa dancers even think a $10 charge to get into a club for a whole night's dancing is unreasonable. That's the culture, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's not compatible with a consistent outflow of money to improve their skill.

Also, whereas ballroom dancing emphasizes dancing many dances, salsa/wcs/hustle dancers as a whole typically know only 1, 2, or 3 dances. So, a salsa only teacher has to have MANY students, consistently. Even in salsa meccas like NY and LA, there are only a handful of teachers who teach only 1 or 2 dances and live a comfortable life. As in, maybe 5. I'm not exaggerating.

While social improvisation is stressed more so in salsa/wcs/hustle/etc (duh, they're social dances, right?), I think good ballroom teachers strive to instill this in their students as well. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that at least in the salsa community, there is a robot syndrome that plagues socials and clubs everywhere, and I see no more improvisation in my scene than when I go to ballroom socials. I've seen some darn nasty collisions avoided on the competition floor because of quick improvisation, and I've seen prima donnas argue on a salsa floor after bumping into each other because they were doing their pattern and obviously couldn't stop.

Please remember, I am generalizing, and there are always exceptions, and if you're mad right now then you're probably the exception, and I wasn't talking about you, so relax! :-)

[tanya_the_dancer]

I wonder if franchise competitions, like the one OP mentions are more expensive.

I was thinking back to the comps I've done in the 2006 and 2007 and the cheapest one where I did 2 styles was around 1500 (for everything, including the entries) and the most expensive one somewhere between 3500 and 4000. I only do 2 styles though. If I did all 4, it would have been more. There was one comp, where I did just standard, it cost me under 1000.

[fascination]

again I would hate to generalize, but IME, the franchises have always been more...only in my little corner of the world

[SlowDancer]

It's an endlessly alarming subject, for sure. I just read Glamour Addiction by Juliet McMains. It seems to be her dissertation for her doctorate. She did her undergrad work at Harvard and got hooked on ballroom dancing and ended up teaching at a Fred Astaire studio and then competing professionally. Her point by point analysis is often something that all of us have noticed, but putting it together and getting a doctorate out of it is admirable.

One of her main themes is the way ballroom has developed in order to foster competition in order to keep the money rolling in. Ballroom dance teachers make a living from the industry perception that there's a right way to do something. Thousands of ballroom dance teachers support themselves only by teaching competitive dancing (not social dancing), but very few salsa and West Coast swing teachers can support themselves only by teaching because improvisation remains a large part of those dances and the goal of teaching is to get someone to the point where they can do improv and social dance. In ballroom, the money is in competing. And there are many ways to come up with charges.

I doubt that the book would tell me anything I don't already know, but I would still like to read it.

The cost issue is one (but not the only) reason that I recently chose to start competing again in country-western rather than ballroom dancing. I love both, but the cost of CW competitions is a fraction of the cost of a ballroom competition. My upcoming competition will cost me a grand total of about $600. This includes airfare, hotel, entries and Saturday night dinner. I'm only dancing two entries at this comp, but each dance is only $12. Most CW pros don't charge their students anything to dance with them at a comp. So when I dance a full program at a later comp, the cost will be very little more than that, and will actually be less because I will be driving instead of flying.

Of course, I realize this is not an option for most people because most ballroom dancers don't have any desire to do CW, at any price. And CW pros, by and large, have day jobs unrelated to dance and teach only nights and weekends. But both of the CW pros I've worked with recently are not only excellent dancers but also great teachers. I feel lucky that I enjoy both styles so much that I can get my competition "fix" inexpensively enough to still be able to afford a ballroom comp or two per year.

[Josh]

I wonder if franchise competitions, like the one OP mentions are more expensive.

I was thinking back to the comps I've done in the 2006 and 2007 and the cheapest one where I did 2 styles was around 1500 (for everything, including the entries) and the most expensive one somewhere between 3500 and 4000. I only do 2 styles though. If I did all 4, it would have been more. There was one comp, where I did just standard, it cost me under 1000.

I have never worked at a franchise, but I know that the independent I used to work at charged on average about what half of the franchise studios charged (we had one comp which was somewhere around $2200, and theirs was over $5K, for example).

As an independent now, I can charge even better prices for my students, since obviously there is no third party overhead. I do not like trying to make a lot of money on the comps themselves, as to me, this is one of the main things the student is dancing for. This is their reward, their fun, their glory. My profit as a teacher will come from teaching lessons that lead up to the comp.

It's sort of like in the gaming console industry. The Playstation 3, for example, is reported to have cost Sony about $700 PER UNIT to manufacture, but they were selling them at about $400 (I think). However, each game will cost at least $70 or $80 (I am guessing, have not gamed in a decade). So in 3 or so games, they have broken even, and can start making a profit. The game console itself is the vehicle, and the real money makers are the games.

[NielsenE]

So far I've only done franchise comps (where my $50/entry price point comes from).

I've tried comparing costs, but its been an apple to oranges comparison so far:
I only get to see the post-studio markup costs for the franchise competitions. (However I suspect all regional studios do the same markup, so its not like it would reveal much)

And I only get to see the "raw" costs for a non-franchise -- don't really have a clue for judging what the pro fee/travel/etc extras would amount to

My rough guess on which is cheaper is going to revolve around the number of students accompanying each pro. It seems like if the pro is bring a large number of competitors the non-franchise pricing is going to win out, but for small numbers it seems like the typically more "fixed fee" pricing used by the franchise saves some money for low number of students per pro (and ensures them even higher profits when more students)

[etp777]

At least in this region, all studios don't do same markup. :) Chicago North, who is actually studio who hosts/sets up local regional comps, in march charged $5 more per entry than my studio. We are not big on comps at my studio, more social dancing, so managers and teachers don't push it as much. CN is very much about comps, both in terms of making money, and in how it can help students improve faster, so they're charging more (Don't ask why that makes sense, didn't make sense as I typed it :) ). But the numbers are right. I didn't hear prices on the last regional or national, so can't compare those. Think our base entry fee (essentially this gets you in for day and covers you and pro for dinner) was same at both studios though.

[Josh]

...is very much about comps, both in terms of making money, and in how it can help students improve faster, so they're charging more (Don't ask why that makes sense, didn't make sense as I typed it :) ).

What doesn't make sense etp? The logic of comps helping improve students, or the logic of charging more for that reason?

[Casey]

SlowDancer said: I doubt that the book would tell me anything I don't already know, but I would still like to read it.

Right - you would probably say that you knew this and you knew that, or you hadn't thought of this angle on that, or you would have even more info on an aspect, such as the way Josh explained the salsa teaching culture. It might be part of the Glamour Addiction itself that we want to read about it even if we know it anyway! One of the most interesting little sections was where the author made up composite teachers and students and amateur competitors and set them at the Heritage Classic and explained each person's role. She pointed out that at a theater or dance performance, there's a clear demarcation between the performance and the non-performance. There's a backstage and people go home. But at a 5-day ballroom comp, everyone is on stage 24/7. You can get the book from some libraries and from Amazon.

[etp777]

The logic of charging more when you're trying to encourage people to enter comps.

I definitely agree that comps help students improve. Just seems strange that studio that really pushes comps, and wants students to enter, charges more, so in hteory, makes it harder for their students to do it.

Course, with a lot of their student base, a couple thousand on entries is nothing.

[danceronice]

I pay $65/dance for competitions with my studio, which covers entry fees and pro fees. I'm responsible for my own travel, food, and lodging expenses, and any "extras" I want (video, photos, etc.) I do not pay any of my pros' expenses (besides what's in that $65.) It adds up, but I've been told it's far from unreasonable. Given that in competitve riding there are tons of other fees when you ship to a show, and in skating, you often pay your coaches' lost wages when they come with you to a competition, it doesn't seem that bad.

[Laura]

The cost includes teacher's fee, entry fee, 1 meal per day, double occupancy checking in Thursday and checking out Sunday. Travel expense is extra.

I guess $40/dance, but I don't know what that means either way. If I compete and move on to the next round of eliminations, do I have to pay another $40 again?

I'm guessing the "entry fee" you mention in your first paragraph is really admission tickets to the ballroom.

The $40/dance would be the entry fee for each different dance contest you enter. Like, you would enter something like Newcomer Waltz, and then Bronze Waltz, and then Newcomer Tango. That would be 3 * $40 = $120 in entry fees right there. If one of these events has a lot of entries and you have to dance more than one round, then there is no additional fee.

Let's look at that $2000 fee. To me it seems a little high, but that's because I go a la carte most of the time. However, I will look at this based on what you told me you are getting in your competition package. Say I were going to the Nevada Star Ball (http://www.nevadastarball.com). Since my teacher has three Pro/Am students, I'd have to pay 1/3rd of his travel expenses as well as my own (that is the agreement we have -- other people and studios may have different agreements).

Plane tickets from San Francisco to Las Vegas: 148 + 148/3 = $198
Three nights SINGLE occupancy at competition hotel: 547 + 547/3 = $730
1 competition banquet per day: 215 + 215/3 = $287
Weekend ballroom admission pass to all sessions: 150 + 150/3 = $200
$40 per event "dance fee" for the teacher (assuming 10 single dances and a 3-dance Bronze Scholarship): $520

Competition Entry fees for 10 dances and a Scholarship: $445

GRAND TOTAL: $1935 + $520 = $2455

So, based on this, I'd say the $2000 + dance event entry fees is about right.

HOWEVER, there are ways to save money, provided your studio and teacher are willing.

[Casey]

I'm not sure of the rules about how specific we can be, but that sounds like Supershag charges. It does seem better psychologically when you don't have to worry about your teacher's expenses or how many other students are going. If Chris wants to fly first class, it doesn't bother you! --

[Laura]

I wonder if franchise competitions, like the one OP mentions are more expensive.
They have been in my experience, mainly because the package you are quoted has you be there the whole weekend, and because they expect you to go to all the banquets, and because they base the price on you doing something like 20 single dance entries.

When I switched to an independent teacher at an independent studio, my costs went down.

[danceronice]

I'm not sure of the rules about how specific we can be, but that sounds like Supershag charges. It does seem better psychologically when you don't have to worry about your teacher's expenses or how many other students are going. If Chris wants to fly first class, it doesn't bother you! --

Honestly, paying an instructor's travel expenses to me doesn't sound as bad as what I found out skating's standards are--you don't pay their travel, you pay for the money they could be making if they were at home teaching all their other students. For my lower-end coaches (ca. $60/hour for lessons) that would be one thing, but some coaches charge upwards of $80 an hour (the two best around here I know are $108/hour) and could be teaching eight or nine one-hour sessions a day! Especially since for adult competitions, there isn't much payoff, forget it.

[Laura]

Okay, now I will price things out the way I *really* would be going to Nevada Star Ball (but we're not going this year). Some costs stay the same, some go up, some go down:

Plane tickets from San Francisco to Las Vegas: 148 + 148/3 = $198
Two nights SINGLE occupancy at competition hotel: 358 + 358/3 = $478
Ballroom admission for Saturday night, Sunday day, Sunday night: 110 + 110/3 = $147
$40 per event "dance fee" for the teacher (assuming 5 single dances, the DanceSport Series event and a 5-dance Open Scholarship): $600

Competition Entry fees for 5 dances, the DanceSport Series event and a Scholarship: $380

Grand Total: $1423 + $380 = $1803

This amount does not include meals, though.

Now, here's the thing. SOMETIMES it actually works out better to be on the package. SO packages in and of themselves are not bad. As fascination said, you need to price out the competition on package and off to see what is best for you. If the price difference is less than about $50, I take the package because the competition organizers need people to be on package so that they can guarantee enough room nights and catering meals so as to get the ballroom rental for the event at a discounted (sometimes free) rate. If people did NOT go on package and the organizers had to pay a la carte for the ballroom, the competition entry fees and the ballroom admission tickets would become significantly more expensive!

Because I go to an independent teacher at an independent studio, we participate only in NDCA-sanctioned Pro/AM competitions. The vast majority of these competitions have web sites where you can find information about the various fees, so this is quite helpful in deciding which competitions to go do and how much it will cost.

[Casey]

That's certainly a fascinating tidbit of information. In theory, you could do a skating competition without your coach because presumably there's not much aside from psychological support that he/she can give you the day of the comp. However, it would be pretty hard to do a pro/am comp w/out your teacher, so you definitely have to pay something to get your teacher there. The lesson replacement cost is the theory behind the day fee for some teachers, I think.

[danceronice]

Honestly, while for an Adult it probably doens't matter, I don't know any high-level skaters who go without coaches. Though some of them have tried, it usually doesn't work out too well. I know one skater, VERY successful, where it matters which of the two goes with them--performs much better when one of the two is there than the other. Definitely a psychological factor, I think, as yeah, there's only so much they can do at that point. (Now, dance test sessions, I kind of have to have my coach, as he skates the test with me. That I have to pay him for.)

And of course after horseback riding, dance seems quite reasonably priced.

[Cal]

SOMETIMES it actually works out better to be on the package. SO packages in and of themselves are not bad. As fascination said, you need to price out the competition on package and off to see what is best for you. If the price difference is less than about $50, I take the package because the competition organizers need people to be on package so that they can guarantee enough room nights and catering meals so as to get the ballroom rental for the event at a discounted (sometimes free) rate. If people did NOT go on package and the organizers had to pay a la carte for the ballroom, the competition entry fees and the ballroom admission tickets would become significantly more expensive!

That's my approach as well, for NDCA comps.

I've done franchise comps too (though not recently) and my franchise owner HAD to enter us on the "full package" for those events - but he'd keep his own costs and his own pro fee low that we paid a LOT less overall than students from other franchises attending the same franchise event.

So, in the end, the $$ I paid to enter a franchise comp were about the same as those I paid to enter an NDCA comp.

[NielsenE]

Yeah I've always been able to price out the franchise ones both on package and off. But so far its always come down to a single issue of stay at the comp hotel or drive longer trips each day to/from home.

However since typically the packages are already slightly flexible, that I'm only gutting a few of the meals and maybe one session ticket in addition to the hotel costs... But often the package includes 1-3 free entries which
often just about equals the savings from gutting the "un-desireables"... The other large cost saver is of course the dinner banquet/show.

So for me the package v non-package deal comes out to more to the classic time v money debate... (extra daily travel time or hotel room) I haven't, to be honest, though looked into cheaper closer cheap hotels as often as I should... Which does help offer the compromise solution, but still pushes you off-package so you lose some possible savings there to get a savings here.... etc

[cornutt]

Yeah I've always been able to price out the franchise ones both on package and off. But so far its always come down to a single issue of stay at the comp hotel or drive longer trips each day to/from home.


I would think that some of the competitors regard staying at the hotel as a competitive advantage -- for example, if you have some sartorial emergency, you can run back to your room to fix it or put on a standby outfit. In any event, it sure is handy. Having said that, some of the hotels are really pricey. But if it's worth it to you to be in the hotel where the comp is, then in my experience it is nearly always cheaper to be on the package.

[samina]

great thread... thanks for everyone's sharing. have great appreciated points of reference.

[Laura]

Having stayed both in the competition hotel and not, I must say that while it is easier to stay in the hotel, a big money savings makes up for the inconvenience for me! After, all not staying in the competition hotel is like doing a local competition and sleeping at home, so it's not an unusual situation for me.

Back when the USDSC used to be in Miami Beach, one could stay at the Fountainbleau for some high price that was well over $200 per night. I stayed a five-minute walk away at a Day's Inn for $69/night. This made the trip so much more affordable that I went for the whole week and bought tickets to all the competitive sessions and still came out ahead.

But really, it all depends. It's one thing to walk 5 minutes in hair and makeup in the late summer in Miami, it's another thing to do it in late fall in Ohio where it might snow!

I think the *biggest* way to save money doing Pro/Am is to stick to one dance style. That reduces the number of days you have to be at the competition, and thus produces savings on hotel costs. Plus, this naturally limits the number of entries you do, thus saving more more. And then there's only having to have one set of costumes and shoes, and so on.

Of course if you can do more and want to do more, that's fantastic, my advice is just for those who want to find ways to keep costs down without giving up all out-of-town competitions.

I believe it is VERY important to stay out of debt when pursuing a hobby. I was once many $K in the hole, and one day woke up and realized how stupid I was being, and carefully budgeted until I was free and clear again. I am not going to get myself into that situation again! Because really, it's not worth it...competitive dancing is a fun and exciting hobby, but at the end of the day it doesn't put food on the table or pay the mortgage, it doesn't contribute to alleviating problems locally or world wide, it doesn't really bring about exposure to important cultural experience, and it certainly doesn't bring any personal glory outside of the small realm of other dancers, really it's just ballroom dancing. I don't say this to belittle the activity, because I love it and have been doing it for over ten years, but just to remind people to keep some perspective and not get sucked into overspending, or getting too wrapped up in dance politics, or measuring one's self worth by wins and losses.

[mamboqueen]

Speaking of $$ and Ohio, Jet Blue is having their $59 o/w tickets from Boston to Columbus - I think you have to book by August 8.

[fascination]

Okay, now I will price things out the way I *really* would be going to Nevada Star Ball (but we're not going this year). Some costs stay the same, some go up, some go down:

Plane tickets from San Francisco to Las Vegas: 148 + 148/3 = $198
Two nights SINGLE occupancy at competition hotel: 358 + 358/3 = $478
Ballroom admission for Saturday night, Sunday day, Sunday night: 110 + 110/3 = $147
$40 per event "dance fee" for the teacher (assuming 5 single dances, the DanceSport Series event and a 5-dance Open Scholarship): $600

Competition Entry fees for 5 dances, the DanceSport Series event and a Scholarship: $380

Grand Total: $1423 + $380 = $1803

This amount does not include meals, though.

Now, here's the thing. SOMETIMES it actually works out better to be on the package. SO packages in and of themselves are not bad. As fascination said, you need to price out the competition on package and off to see what is best for you. If the price difference is less than about $50, I take the package because the competition organizers need people to be on package so that they can guarantee enough room nights and catering meals so as to get the ballroom rental for the event at a discounted (sometimes free) rate. If people did NOT go on package and the organizers had to pay a la carte for the ballroom, the competition entry fees and the ballroom admission tickets would become significantly more expensive!

Because I go to an independent teacher at an independent studio, we participate only in NDCA-sanctioned Pro/AM competitions. The vast majority of these competitions have web sites where you can find information about the various fees, so this is quite helpful in deciding which competitions to go do and how much it will cost.re package or non-package: yep, particularly if you dance alot of heats and the cost per heat goes up for not being on package....

and as for hotels: yep...all depends on where you ar eand what the hassle of transport is...I am a 3 block walk from my hotel for ohio...and while a PITA...well worth the savings...also some comps are cheaper to book the comp hotel through organizer and some aren't...another thing to research

[fascination]

That's my approach as well, for NDCA comps.

I've done franchise comps too (though not recently) and my franchise owner HAD to enter us on the "full package" for those events - but he'd keep his own costs and his own pro fee low that we paid a LOT less overall than students from other franchises attending the same franchise event.

So, in the end, the $$ I paid to enter a franchise comp were about the same as those I paid to enter an NDCA comp.
another thing to bear in mind if one is of a mind to be sensitive to it is that at some comps students who are not on package don't count toward pros entired for any top teacher money or they have to have at least "X" number to qualify...this can sometimes be a delicate thing to navigate

[fascination]

I would think that some of the competitors regard staying at the hotel as a competitive advantage -- for example, if you have some sartorial emergency, you can run back to your room to fix it or put on a standby outfit. In any event, it sure is handy. Having said that, some of the hotels are really pricey. But if it's worth it to you to be in the hotel where the comp is, then in my experience it is nearly always cheaper to be on the package.
but if you are really buff you can carry three dresses and a shoe and makup bag across Columbus in the snow...plus get your quads all warmed up;)

[samina]

fyi... at the last comp hotel i stayed at, the block of rooms set aside at a special rate for the comp was all full, but it turned out that the regular rate was significantly cheaper because it was on the weekend. something to be aware of... staying at the comp hotel could end up being cheaper than imagined!

[quixotedlm]

I have been taking private lessons at my DVIDA studio for the past 7 months. They recently released their pricing for the October DVIDA Pro/AM competition in Las Vegas. Its $2,000 including hotel plus $40 per event.

Is this typical? I have no idea whats a reasonable price. If I decide to do it, I'll definitely have to incur credit card debt.


Since you mentioned credit card debt.... don't do it.

[cornutt]

Since you mentioned credit card debt.... don't do it.

Good point. It's not worth going into hock for.

[SPratt74]

Having stayed both in the competition hotel and not, I must say that while it is easier to stay in the hotel, a big money savings makes up for the inconvenience for me! After, all not staying in the competition hotel is like doing a local competition and sleeping at home, so it's not an unusual situation for me.

Back when the USDSC used to be in Miami Beach, one could stay at the Fountainbleau for some high price that was well over $200 per night. I stayed a five-minute walk away at a Day's Inn for $69/night. This made the trip so much more affordable that I went for the whole week and bought tickets to all the competitive sessions and still came out ahead.

But really, it all depends. It's one thing to walk 5 minutes in hair and makeup in the late summer in Miami, it's another thing to do it in late fall in Ohio where it might snow!

I think the *biggest* way to save money doing Pro/Am is to stick to one dance style. That reduces the number of days you have to be at the competition, and thus produces savings on hotel costs. Plus, this naturally limits the number of entries you do, thus saving more more. And then there's only having to have one set of costumes and shoes, and so on.

Of course if you can do more and want to do more, that's fantastic, my advice is just for those who want to find ways to keep costs down without giving up all out-of-town competitions.

I believe it is VERY important to stay out of debt when pursuing a hobby. I was once many $K in the hole, and one day woke up and realized how stupid I was being, and carefully budgeted until I was free and clear again. I am not going to get myself into that situation again! Because really, it's not worth it...competitive dancing is a fun and exciting hobby, but at the end of the day it doesn't put food on the table or pay the mortgage, it doesn't contribute to alleviating problems locally or world wide, it doesn't really bring about exposure to important cultural experience, and it certainly doesn't bring any personal glory outside of the small realm of other dancers, really it's just ballroom dancing. I don't say this to belittle the activity, because I love it and have been doing it for over ten years, but just to remind people to keep some perspective and not get sucked into overspending, or getting too wrapped up in dance politics, or measuring one's self worth by wins and losses.

Very informative post and well said!

Cornutt... if you read this post... welcome back! ;)

[Cal]

another thing to bear in mind if one is of a mind to be sensitive to it is that at some comps students who are not on package don't count toward pros entired for any top teacher money or they have to have at least "X" number to qualify...this can sometimes be a delicate thing to navigate

Ah, yes - a very good point. And I can add another ingredient into that mix: there have been times when I've attended a competition with two pros - and then had to determine which one "got" my package. I have to say, all my pros have been very, very classy when that's happened - we were always able to agree on how to "horsetrade" packages for the targeted comps.

[fascination]

Ah, yes - a very good point. And I can add another ingredient into that mix: there have been times when I've attended a competition with two pros - and then had to determine which one "got" my package. I have to say, all my pros have been very, very classy when that's happened - we were always able to agree on how to "horsetrade" packages for the targeted comps.I am not the sharpest crayon in the box but I DO know that one pro is enough...at least for me...but very cool that they were willing to be classy about sharing you;)

[etp777]

heh, fascination, at least in this area, we generally have two pros (or main teacher and buddy teacher, or couple other names they go by). Generally students will split entries between the two teachers. Not sure how this is done really, though, as I didn't get my buddy teacher until after my only comp I've done to date.

[fascination]

I have heard of it and my pro is certainly secure enough to share when I get a wild hair and decide to do something frivolous, but we are not much into that system though I can appreciate it's merits and I am glad it works for you...personally, I have my hands full with one, lol

[fascination]

let me add that as long as you get to make that choice I wouldn't be adverse to it...but I would take STRONG exception to someone assigning me another pro...I am the consumer, thank you very much...and I will decide what I am paying for...as long as it was your choice...there is always something new to be learned from nearly anyone if you are new and openminded...

[etp777]

I was assigned, but was up to me to accept it. Not sure if that's normal, I tend to be a special case in most regards. I know when our top male teacher left at least one of his students got to pick her new teachers.

Heck though, I got randomly assigned my main teacher, and probably is not who I would have picked if it had been up to me. Sure as heck glad I got assigned her though. :)

[fascination]

as long as you are happy...more power to you....everyone has a different preference for how things like that work....I know that when I was at a studio, there was only one pro with whom I was interested in taking lessons...if someone had tried to assign me otherwise...um...nope

[etp777]

I actually went in same way. Wanted Kelya, no one else. Didn't buy package when I went in though, jsut talked about prices. Decided on whim while in airport for business tirp that I was going to do it though, so called studio. She didn't have any lessons open any time soon, so manager asked if someone else would be alright. i figured would take someone else for first lesson, then change, which I knew was option. Once I had a lesson or two with Megan had no thoughts afterwards of changing. The option was certainly there, just didn't take it.

Looks like I may take a job in another country for next year, and told manager blatantly that she'd see me back in studio day I got back, IF my teacher was still there. :)

[fascination]

sounds good ...I can certainly appreciate having an attachment to your pro....I hope you are able to find good dancing while you are away

[liz]

Here is my two cents...We ams split the pros cost, usually are on a package, and $10 per entry to pro... No package if price comes out better and won't be staying longer., What is your pros policy on scholarship money? Just wondering how others deal with the issue...Also, who gets the trophies?

[fascination]

liz...if that is a general question...my pro never even considers what I do with the scholarship money...but I try to be generous...as for trophies...will let you know whne it is relevant...am assuming he wouldn't want one

[Laura]

I get the trophies and the scholarship money. The money ends up back in the Pro's hands eventually anyway, as I use it on dance lessons!

[mamboqueen]

Here is my two cents...We ams split the pros cost, usually are on a package, and $10 per entry to pro... No package if price comes out better and won't be staying longer., What is your pros policy on scholarship money? Just wondering how others deal with the issue...Also, who gets the trophies?

That sounds too good to be true, liz. So, if his expenses for the weekend are $1200, and he has 3 students, you each play $400 PLUS $10/dance on top of what the organizer charges?

Any scholarship money I have won, I walked out with the check. The only trophies I ever got were small and are somewhere in my house. Honestly, I'd rather they skipped trophies entirely.

[Laura]

Arrangements can vary from "no charge -- just pay travel expenses" to "pay $5,000 flat fee" to whatever that lady paid Donnie Burns that time to do Emerald Ball with her...what was it, $100,000 or something? Liz has a great arrangement, that's for sure!

[mamboqueen]

Arrangements can vary from "no charge -- just pay travel expenses" to "pay $5,000 flat fee" to whatever that lady paid Donnie Burns that time to do Emerald Ball with her...what was it, $100,000 or something? Liz has a great arrangement, that's for sure!

Yes, which can make it a bit tricky to decide (especially for a newcomer) where to go. You aren't really comparing apples to apples all the time, as goes with the instruction/teacher (I don't think I'd pick a teacher based on what they charge to compete at this point). I have paid different "ways" at the three studios I have been at. I think the $65/dance charge w/no other costs is attractive and certainly easy to figure out your budget ahead of time. Although if that doesn't include multiple rounds (ie quarterfinals), I guess it's a bit harder to anticipate.

[liz]

guess I am coming out good....mamboqueen, this is really how it works. We usually have alot of girls with us to spit the cost.... As for the trophies, I LOVE TROPHIES!!!! I need something to bring home to show the kids or they think I haven't won anything. My pro has a trophy room in his home, and I am wondering if we are going to have a show down in the future over who keeps what. Only down side to competing with lots of girls with your group is the possibility of your pro getting material mixed up.... Only happens now and again...

[mamboqueen]

guess I am coming out good....mamboqueen, this is really how it works. We usually have alot of girls with us to spit the cost.... As for the trophies, I LOVE TROPHIES!!!! I need something to bring home to show the kids or they think I haven't won anything. My pro has a trophy room in his home, and I am wondering if we are going to have a show down in the future over who keeps what. Only down side to competing with lots of girls with your group is the possibility of your pro getting material mixed up.... Only happens now and again...

My house just isn't big enough. I make my kids suffer by watching my videos ;). *LOL* My daughter will take whatever medals I come home with and sometimes bring them to school. My son is not really interested in any part of it (although he did want to take a female pro he met to school on career day :doh:).

And I can relate to the latter half of your post. I've had a few things thrown in on the competition floor that were not from my repertoire. But, it can't be easy to remember what everyone is dancing. I can barely remember what I'm dancing ;).

If you want, we can all lobby Eddie to make sure you get all the trophies! It'll be part of the condition to signing up for Hotlanta :idea:.

[liz]

for multi-dance events we only pay as if they were one dances. Also, if you are recalled that is not counted either... Sometimes he doesn't charge us for smaller comps that are in driving distance...Then the next comp. if we win scholarship money we give it to him...Not always, maybe everyother time... Again, I guess I am lucky...Also, I have one of the top instructors in the country..Who could charge alot more if he wanted too.

[mamboqueen]

Also, I have one of the top instructors in the country..Who could charge alot more if he wanted too.

He's a keeper, liz. Nice, nice guy.

[tanya_the_dancer]

heh, fascination, at least in this area, we generally have two pros (or main teacher and buddy teacher, or couple other names they go by). Generally students will split entries between the two teachers. Not sure how this is done really, though, as I didn't get my buddy teacher until after my only comp I've done to date.

One teacher once told me that in franchise system he worked for when he started (and that was some years ago, too), a teacher needed to accumulate a certain amount of pro-am competition experience in order to advance. So sometimes they would have this arrangement to have a student do some entries with a different teacher, in order to him to gain more competition experience. I am not sure how they would work it out with a student, tough.

I do know a lady, who has been taking lessons with 2 teachers, and she competed with one of them in smooth and another in rhythm (they're both from the same studio) in the same competition.

[etp777]

My son is not really interested in any part of it (although he did want to take a female pro he met to school on career day :doh:).

Your son is a man after my own heart, mamboqueen. :)

[mamboqueen]

Your son is a man after my own heart, mamboqueen. :)

Yeah, well, lucky for him I am not holding his slight against me...against him! :)

[liz]

think you might have something mamboqueen.
no trophy for Liz, no dancing for you. Eddie would
get a kick out of that one.I

[Joe]

but if you are really buff you can carry three dresses and a shoe and makup bag across Columbus in the snow...plus get your quads all warmed up;)
Now, who do we know like that? ;)

[samina]

I get the trophies and the scholarship money. The money ends up back in the Pro's hands eventually anyway, as I use it on dance lessons!

exactly. isn't that the point of the money to begin with? i mean, it's hardly a profit from the event... you're in the hole going in, and you start paying out again to him when you get home. the money's all going to the pro anyway... heh

[etp777]

as long as you are happy...more power to you....everyone has a different preference for how things like that work....I know that when I was at a studio, there was only one pro with whom I was interested in taking lessons...if someone had tried to assign me otherwise...um...nope

Fascination, think I figured out the difference in our opinions here (and not really difference, as I completely agree that NOW I'd refuse to take a pro jsut because she was assigned to me). At time I was assigned Megan, I had no dance experience whatsoever. I was getting into this just because family and friends did it, and I was sick of sitting on sidelines at comps (was going even then to watch and cheer) during general dancing. So I had no knowledge to base any choice on, so took pro assigned to me.

But yes, if I was moving to new pro/studio now (which I probably am), I completely agree that I wouldn't just blindly accept a pro assigned to me. I hope and expect to take some privates with each pro and figure out who fits me best before I settle on one.

[danceronice]

When I started lessons, I was assigned to someone--I think they must base it on what you say you're interested in and probably height's a consideration, too. If I moved to a new studio (I can't imagine ever doing that, but if I did) I would probably let them do much the same thing, though I'd be able to be much more clear about what I wanted to do. If it didn't work out, I could always switch (as happened eventually at my current studio).

[Casey]

Fred Astaire had a really cheap intro package some years ago and I tried that and got assigned to a guy who was shorter and had horrible smelling cologne. If they had assigned me the person I wanted, I might have taken lessons there, but as it was, I ended up with the independent whose group classes I had started around the same time. Sometimes marketing strategies could be a little better!

[LucyDiamond]

exactly. isn't that the point of the money to begin with? i mean, it's hardly a profit from the event... you're in the hole going in, and you start paying out again to him when you get home. the money's all going to the pro anyway... heh
I always kid around by saying that if I ever won any money in a scholarship, I'd just sign the check over to my pro... :wink:

[Josh]

I think they must base it on what you say you're interested in and probably height's a consideration, too.

Unfortunately, while these can be consideration, about 90% of the time who gets assigned to you is whoever is next on the rotation.

[fascination]

I always kid around by saying that if I ever won any money in a scholarship, I'd just sign the check over to my pro... :wink:
mine would forget to cash it...hence other arrangements;)

[LucyDiamond]

:uplaugh:

[fascination]

;)he has other endearing qualities

[icequeen]

This may or may not be different enough to warrant a separate thread.... but I'm a lumper not a splitter, so you can tell me if it's not relevant enough =).

How much do you all train before a pro-am comp? I have a work-study deal with a studio, and will be competing pro-am for the first time with this pro. I know the more the better, but how much is a realistic number to train to prepare for the comp? What have you all done in the past, i.e. how many hours with new pro, or how many hours specifically for competition routines?

Thanks!:)

[fascination]

well, you have already said it.... as much as you can afford and as long as you can until it is clear that if you don't have a break you won't be able to be rational any longer

[cornutt]

well, you have already said it.... as much as you can afford and as long as you can until it is clear that if you don't have a break you won't be able to be rational any longer

What does being rational have to do with comps? ;)

[Laura]

How much do you all train before a pro-am comp? I have a work-study deal with a studio, and will be competing pro-am for the first time with this pro. I know the more the better, but how much is a realistic number to train to prepare for the comp? What have you all done in the past, i.e. how many hours with new pro, or how many hours specifically for competition routines?

Since I try to do one competition per month, to me there is no special change in training for a comp because I am always about to do a comp. There is no 'off season' in dancing, after all. Anyway, the two weeks before the comp I might dance rounds more (usually by myself, solo, with TS watching from the side and shouting advice and encouragement), and the two weeks after the comp I definitely spend more time on technique, but that's really the only differential.

[samina]

...as long as you can until it is clear that if you don't have a break you won't be able to be rational any longer

roflmao... yes....

[HoboChilli]

Rationality went out the window when I signed up for 30 private lessons.

[samina]

usually by myself, solo, with TS watching from the side and shouting advice and encouragement), ....

really... very interesting... i mean, i dance them by myself when i'm alone, but that you dance them by yourself when you're with TS... hmmm. care to share about how that evolved & why?

[Laura]

I've always had teachers who made me dance my part by myself while they watched -- even back when I was a newbie Bronze dancer -- so this doesn't seem unusual to me. How else can my teacher see what I am doing, other than taping it? Also, it's often easier to see/correct my own mistakes/misunderstandings when I'm doing it all 100% myself without the benefit of a partner.

[samina]

yes, i dance for pro in most lessons in some respect. it was the rounds by yourself business that caught my eye. do you also, then, do rounds with him? like a set by yourself & then together?

[reb]

I've always had teachers who made me dance my part by myself while they watched -- even back when I was a newbie Bronze dancer -- so this doesn't seem unusual to me. How else can my teacher see what I am doing, other than taping it? Also, it's often easier to see/correct my own mistakes/misunderstandings when I'm doing it all 100% myself without the benefit of a partner.
Sam, I'd like to support and add to Laura's comment. We've learned to warm up in a sequence of exercises, starting with 'solo foot rounds', working from the feet up.

yes, i dance for pro in most lessons in some respect. it was the rounds by yourself business that caught my eye. do you also, then, do rounds with him? like a set by yourself & then together?

and we also do entire solo foot rounds

[samina]

well, i can say for sure that i will add this to my comp-prep paradigm, with pro in attendance. i already do that in practice, but with him there... :nodding:... yah, sounds like a good thing.

[Cal]

I've always had teachers who made me dance my part by myself while they watched -- even back when I was a newbie Bronze dancer -- so this doesn't seem unusual to me. How else can my teacher see what I am doing, other than taping it? Also, it's often easier to see/correct my own mistakes/misunderstandings when I'm doing it all 100% myself without the benefit of a partner.

Ditto for me.
As to rounds by myself - I've done them alone, but it doesn't always happen. If the studio is crowded, we do rounds together so that there's a "forward-looking" person to see traffic problems.

[Laura]

it was the rounds by yourself business that caught my eye. do you also, then, do rounds with him? like a set by yourself & then together?
Yes, and yes. And sometimes in a round he'll dance two or three dances with me and I'll have to do the others by myself.

This all came about as a natural extension of me dancing by myself for him in lessons so he can diagnose things by how they look other than just by how they feel.

When we're doing this, the highest praise I can get is "that looked so good it made me want to jump in there and dance it with you. :-)

[samina]

When we're doing this, the highest praise I can get is "that looked so good it made me want to jump in there and dance it with you. :-)

i can imagine! sounds like an excellent approach.

[waltzgirl]

I often dance segments of a routine alone with pro watching, but have never done the whole routine alone. I'm wondering what the advantage of that is. While I absolutely know each pattern and can do it alone, I would still have to think about how they are strung together. I think not having the routine set in stone in my mind has one benefit in comps. I never have any problem following when he has to make a change for floorcraft. The only time I've practiced entire routines by myself was for solos or performance groups, when the choreography is set in stone and, for groups, has to be completely in synch.

[Laura]

When I dance them totally on my own, it really shows up places where my understanding of what I'm doing and why breaks down. For instance, there might be a place where I become totally lost and have no idea how we even would get to the next corner. Why am I lost? Am I doing something wrong? Do I just not understand something? Can I describe it correctly but maybe I'm doing it wrong thing anyway? I have been amazed by what comes up when I have to let my own posture, strength, balance, flexibility, and muscle memory take over and transport me around the floor without the help and protection of a partner. It might not work for everyone, but it has been a helpful learning tool for me.

It's not just about memorizing the patterns. In fact, my teacher kind of doesn't care much if I forget the choreography, so long as I keep dancing and get myself around the room in a convincing manner while the music keeps playing. So I often realize that I've forgotten a wall or part of it but I just keep moving, trying to keep it together mentally and physically, because one never knows what will happen during an actual performance.

[waltzgirl]

Interesting. I get much of the same things from doing shorter segments by myself, so I guess there's not that much difference. If something doesn't go or feel right, my pro will usually have me dance it by myself so he can see what I'm doing. There are also lots of mirrors in the studio, so he can often see while we're dancing together. Just a different teaching approach, I guess.

[fascination]

Rationality went out the window when I signed up for 30 private lessons.a week?;)

[fascination]

What does being rational have to do with comps? ;)
not a doggone thing...but lessons without beign rational..well...um, I am quite experienced with that and I do not find it to be productive:rolleyes:...today on the other hand was doggone pleasant...we worked on shadow position in smooth, open boxes to chasse to GV......they we did silver rhythm rounds..quite a nice day and much to reflect upon

[fascination]

pro would has me do as much alone as I can bear...he knows when I am about to fizzle out on it...it's a neccessary evil wiht great benefits

[HoboChilli]

a week?;)

Ballroom dancing is the gift that keeps on giving ... er ... I mean ... taking ... my hard earned $$$. 1 lesson a week. Wish I could take more dance lessons with my limited funds; only in Utopia :roll:

[elisedance]

Ballroom dancing is the gift that keeps on giving ... er ... I mean ... taking ... my hard earned $$$. 1 lesson a week. Wish I could take more dance lessons with my limited funds; only in Utopia :roll:

Hi HC,
so for each hour of lesson how many hours of practice do you do?

[HoboChilli]

I go to the Friday and Saturday night group lessons and parties. That's 6 hours total each weekend. I tried practicing on my own, but it never felt right practicing with Invisi-Girl. She's never consistent.

[Corne]

HoboChilli : I bet ya is you followed the suggestion of dancing alone for your instructor during lesson time (maybe just short segments), (s)he will find things for you to practice by yourself during practice time. Stuff that you would find ok to practice by yourself.

I didn't know dancing alone in front of your instructor was such a popular idea. It worked quite well for me as well when i did in with one of my instructors. The instructor was just too short to dance standard with me (well, she thought she was too short) so if i wanted lessons with her i had to dance alone during the whole lesson. I sure learned a lot from it though it felt strange at times.

[tangotime]

HoboChilli :

. The instructor was just too short to dance standard with me (well, she thought she was too short) so if i wanted lessons with her i had to dance alone during the whole lesson. I sure learned a lot from it though it felt strange at times.

Thats called a CLASS lesson, not a Private ( only in the sense that you had no physical dance context ) And I am presuming that you booked the lesson with that in mind ?--
Of course , there is still a lot that can learned in that process ,if thats what you desire .

[fascination]

I go to the Friday and Saturday night group lessons and parties. That's 6 hours total each weekend. I tried practicing on my own, but it never felt right practicing with Invisi-Girl. She's never consistent.
lol, neither are you...keep doing it....;)...and good luck to you...fun to see people all excited

[Purr]

Ditto for me.

Me, too. Dancing one's part alone tends to point out deficiencies very quickly.

[samina]

When I dance them totally on my own, it really shows up places where my understanding of what I'm doing and why breaks down. For instance, there might be a place where I become totally lost and have no idea how we even would get to the next corner. Why am I lost? Am I doing something wrong? Do I just not understand something? Can I describe it correctly but maybe I'm doing it wrong thing anyway? I have been amazed by what comes up when I have to let my own posture, strength, balance, flexibility, and muscle memory take over and transport me around the floor without the help and protection of a partner. It might not work for everyone, but it has been a helpful learning tool for me.

It's not just about memorizing the patterns. In fact, my teacher kind of doesn't care much if I forget the choreography, so long as I keep dancing and get myself around the room in a convincing manner while the music keeps playing. So I often realize that I've forgotten a wall or part of it but I just keep moving, trying to keep it together mentally and physically, because one never knows what will happen during an actual performance.

helpful to hear that. pro's coach once said in our group class that one of his female mentors, when asked how she became a world-class dancer, responded to the effect of: "two things: i learned how to dance by myself, and i mastered how to balance on one foot".

there's not a practice session that has gone by since that those words aren't ringing in my ear.

[Josh]

helpful to hear that. pro's coach once said in our group class that one of his female mentors, when asked how she became a world-class dancer, responded to the effect of: "two things: i learned how to dance by myself, and i mastered how to balance on one foot".

there's not a practice session that has gone by since that those words aren't ringing in my ear.

Those are words of wisdom samina, good stuff!

My (world class as well!) coach alllllllways emphasizes to ladies that they MUST move. If they don't their men may have a tendency to pull them and push them around the floor. And then WW3 happens, on the floor. I think that if a lady can do something on her own, then she will have no trouble doing it with her partner, unless he does something incorrect to throw her off. When I dance with a lady who really dances HERSELF, I hardly know what to do with myself, I'm so taken aback. And with all my girls, the #1 thing we focus on (on average) is movement. If a student can't move/travel very well in a bronze waltz, for example, what makes her/me/anyone think that it's going to be any different in silver? "Forget how many steps you can do, you've got to move what you already know!" Sorry, I got OT. :-)

[Corne]

"two things: i learned how to dance by myself, and i mastered how to balance on one foot".



Do you know what is meant by balance on one foot ? Does that mean just good balance in general or something more specific ? Thanks for that tidbit, samina.

[fascination]

I am betting that means all the the weight completely committed to the standing leg/ball of foot....such that it would be no big deal to take the other foot off the floor, though of course one wouldn't in general

[samina]

When I dance with a lady who really dances HERSELF, I hardly know what to do with myself, I'm so taken aback.

i know that with social dancing, a woman moving herself is more uncommon, but am sure this must get fixed as she climbs thru the syllabus & gets into competition. you're talking about encountering women in social situations, right?

in the last month, my pro has been using language along the lines of "show me what you want the step to BE..." and it has really been helping me own the movement... not just moving myself, which has always been important, but in really OWNING the movement myself. it has really been connecting me more & more to the floor... i can feel that change week by week. it makes the dancing even more addictive, too... :)

[samina]

Do you know what is meant by balance on one foot ? Does that mean just good balance in general or something more specific ? Thanks for that tidbit, samina.

yes, the point being that the dancing part occurs when you're securely over one foot, rarely with the weight distributed evenly between the two, as in a contracheck. so the ability to be on one foot, without deflating your energy out your hip socket, and with maximal ability to articulate your joints however you wish, whether on the full foot or up on one toe... that's the aim. that's mastery.

our group was shown an exercise using a stepstool, to practice daily how to articulate the hip (while going up and over & back again) to allow for this perfect balance & control. i bought a stool just for this purpose. i figure this is the way i can begin to build a certain foundation for myself, since i don't have the benefit of having danced before (ballet, jazz, etc.)

i know we're OT but... i so love this topic. :rolleyes:

[samina]

I am betting that means all the the weight completely committed to the standing leg/ball of foot....such that it would be no big deal to take the other foot off the floor, though of course one wouldn't in general

yes... and able to handle complex articulation of the body very securely while dancing on that leg before initiating movement to the next...

[Purr]

Me, too. Dancing one's part alone tends to point out deficiencies very quickly.

I should have also mentioned that this type of lesson also tends to invite comments like if you can do this so well on your own, why can't you do it that well dancing with me.

[etp777]

Ha, Purr, I haven't gotten that one yet. But dancing alone definitely helps point out deficiencies. Havne't figured out how to fix them all yet, but definitely see them.

[samina]

Havne't figured out how to fix them all yet, but definitely see them.

don'tcha just wish there were a pill one could take for that...?:rolleyes:

[Purr]

Ha, Purr, I haven't gotten that one yet.

I have, quite a lot I'm afraid, at least with smooth and standard. The usual suspect is not being on my feet enough, or more specifically, not being left enough. Or the other suspect is not powering through enough, providing my part of the drive or locomotion.

[Purr]

don'tcha just wish there were a pill one could take for that...?:rolleyes:

Yes, but the real medicine is more lessons and more practice.

[fascination]

maybe not

[fascination]

sometimes a break is the medicine...caring less sometimes=better dancing, if you care too much

[Purr]

I would agree that dancing is better when there is less stress. Even if the technique suffers, there's more feeling and general enjoyment in the dance.

[etp777]

I have, quite a lot I'm afraid, at least with smooth and standard. The usual suspect is not being on my feet enough, or more specifically, not being left enough. Or the other suspect is not powering through enough, providing my part of the drive or locomotion.

I suspectone reason I haven't heard it is that most of my dancing alone is just when I go in on practice on my own time. Generally, unless we're working on a new step, or teacher already sees somethign wrong with what I'm doing and is just trying to narrow it down (ie can't see well enough while we're dancing together), I don't do steps/routines on my own very often with pro watching.

[Laura]

sometimes a break is the medicine...caring less sometimes=better dancing, if you care too much
I know what you mean...I can start getting kind of burnt out and grumpy and obsessive after a while if I don't take a break.

How long a break is good to take? I say until you miss dancing and want to get back to it. I've been on break since mid-April and I'm finally to the point where I'm missing it. Will be starting up again any week now....

[samina]

sometimes a break is the medicine...caring less sometimes=better dancing, if you care too much

right out of the pages of my own notes. am remembering being taken aback a few months ago when pro said "for the amount of experience you have, you care too much." i consciously scaled back on pushing forward for a bit... and started to move forward... asith everything else in life.

[HoboChilli]

Does taking a break cause you to regress what you've learned?

[samina]

i haven't taken a significant break... maybe just a week a couple times. what's been most valuable to me is recognizing when i need to take a break from working on making something in particular happen when it's not happening, and recognizing that it'll come when it's good & ready to come...

usually after that, the information i need to make the shift comes to me very serendipitously... and then a new wave of activity starts... and then what i was looking for starts to emerge. that pattern has happened numerous times.

[Laura]

Does taking a break cause you to regress what you've learned?
Only in the short term. It does come back, I figure it will take me a couple of weeks but I don't mind. I much prefer being happy and uninjured than having to bring myself back up to speed. My teacher often says that when you take a break you lose bad habits as well as good ones, so after a break is an excellent time to work hardcore on technique.

And besides, I'm thinking that we've been out so long we might as well make all new choreography while we're at it! :)

[fascination]

I know what you mean...I can start getting kind of burnt out and grumpy and obsessive after a while if I don't take a break.

How long a break is good to take? I say until you miss dancing and want to get back to it. I've been on break since mid-April and I'm finally to the point where I'm missing it. Will be starting up again any week now....exactly...it is all relative...I must say two weeks is my out limit...but it always does me some good

[tanya_the_dancer]

I can't imagine going more than 2 weeks without dancing.

[Laura]

It's not difficult for me -- I've got a lot of other exciting stuff going on. I was traveling with my mom, then I went to Blackpool, then I helped to run two big dance competitions, I went to Chicago to work on a documentary film shoot, some friends from the East Coast came out for a visit, I've been slowly working on unpacking and setting up my new place, and then there was that new Harry Potter book to read...frankly, it's been a bit of a relief that I haven't been spending all my time driving back and forth (it's 50 minutes each way) for lessons lately! I didn't miss it at all for the first two months. It's only been the past couple of weeks that I've been truly missing dancing. I talk to my teacher from time to time, so we know where each other is "at" and will be ready to get going when the time is right.

[fascination]

laura...I thought you said you competed about once a month though...was that just prior to the sabbatical?...I guess I just haven't been dancing long enough to suffer a layoff for that long...much to pro's delight I am sure ;)

[Laura]

Yep, that was prior to the sabbatical, and is my plan for after we are back and going 100% again.

Originally I didn't plan to be on a break at all, but some other things outside of my control happened and so here I am, not dancing for now.

[danceronice]

Wow. I haven't skated in a month and that's the longest time off I've had from that in three years. As for dancing, I'm not good enough to take a break. I'd lose what muscle memory I do have. Besides, I don't have time to take a break. This is my break. Plus a major chunk of my social life.

I'll get a rest at Christmas, maybe, depending on how many days I get off to go home. Or when I keel over. Whichever comes first.

[Josh]

i know that with social dancing, a woman moving herself is more uncommon, but am sure this must get fixed as she climbs thru the syllabus & gets into competition. you're talking about encountering women in social situations, right?

samina, in general, yes. Of course, there are always those who do not progress as quickly and all that, but I was mainly talking about social dancing, yes.

I have some competition students who like to go social dancing, and a couple also take group classes elsewhere as a chance to practice. While I think overall it does help because it's practice, I have to remind them when they get on the floor with me, that we are going to MOVE! :-) It's easy to get into a "social-ease" mindset for a student, even on a lesson, and just knowing how to move does not automatically create movement--they must shift their mindset to one of movement, as opposed to just stepping.

When I first learned american bronze foxtrot, I danced it like everyone does at first, and when my pro at the time got me used to moving it, I felt like I was going to topple over because my steps felt like they were 10 ft long each! That's how my girls feel at first I have no doubt, but it's necessary to feel progress. My general rule (in everything in life) is that if you're in a comfort zone (that is, if you're comfortable with something), then chances are you are stagnant and not progressing. That's not to say that I don't advocate resting and enjoying the fruits of one's labor, but too long being comfortable with a dance figure, for example, may mean that it has been allowed to be done in a more casual way for too long.

To gain balance, you must feel a loss of it first. I remind students (and myself) this all the time. When I was learning to spin on one foot, if I had been intimidated by the loss of balance when I tried to do 2, I would have stopped when doing 1 felt great, and never challenged my body to do more than 1. By never being "comfortable" with balance and spins, I can now easily do 3 on one foot with no loss of balance, and I can keep going for many if I use both feet. All by being not comfortable! :-)

Sorry for the long post!!

[samina]

I felt like I was going to topple over because my steps felt like they were 10 ft long each!

lol... yep. last sunday while practicing with pro he was trying to get me to move more in quickstep... "i feel like i'm stretching so far..." i told him. he laughed and said "no, it's more like, wait a second, i think i feel a little something happening, now..." :)

To gain balance, you must feel a loss of it first.

thanks for the reminder on this! my pro says this as well... and i try to push through my resistance and not be conservative, but sometimes that takes over. am consciously endeavoring to move past that... i was recently watching a dancer spin something like 7 times in a row and thought... :sigh:... if i'm ever gonna get to three or four, i'm gonna have to become a lot more courageous...

[Josh]

and i try to push through my resistance and not be conservative, but sometimes that takes over. am consciously endeavoring to move past that...

With regard to movement in general, not spins, just remember that your Best Friend is your standing leg (how many times you must have heard that huh? :wink: )

I find that floor pressure, a nice grounded connection with the floor, is maybe the biggest key to effective movement. All dancers in early stages (and beyond even) will have a tendency to take steps rather than to push across the floor. With one student I used the illustration of an etch-a-sketch. I asked her to mentally liken the floor to an etch-a-sketch, and her feet as the instrument to draw lines on it. If she just places her feet where she's try to go, then she'll never draw a picture, so she must maintain a pressure with the floor and push into her steps, letting her feet glide. (note I'm talking about the swing dances here only, not tango or latin, though similar principles apply with regard to the standing leg and moving)

Again, this stuff tends to be seen as basic, but it's so hard for us to master, and doing is never quite as easy as saying... We just have to keep at it! :-)

[samina]

you're validating everything i'm focusing on developing... i just keep working on the floor pressure business, all the time, with everything... and hopefully it'll start kicking in...

i like your etch-a-sketch imagine...

[Tangokid]

Hi I'm the new kid on the block so i'm going to ask a stupid question if the states can organize a pro am comp, could something not be done on the same lines in the UK. If not why not. I'm sure their are lots of ladies that have lessons with their dance teachers who cannot find a suitable am dance parnter to go on and compete with.

Tangokid

[waltzgirl]

Hi, Tangokid! Welcome to DF!

As it happens, we have another thread on just that subject. Here's the link:

http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=19565

[latingal]

Yes welcome to DF Tangokid! And thank you waltzgirl for supplying a link to a relevent thread!