Starting (or not) pro-am in a pro-am-less country

[Corne]

So, here in my neck of the woods, there is no pro-am. None. Zilch. Most average dancers don't even know what it is.
I can't keep but think about how do you start such a concept such as pro-am dancing ? What conditions have to be favourable for it to work ? Is it as simple as just talking to the right people ?

Your ideas please.....

[waltzgirl]

Do you mean pro-am comps?

I assume that people without partners still take individual lessons with their own pros, and if so, the pro-am partnerships already exist.

So it's a matter of finding venues for them to compete (and perhaps convincing the pros that this is something they want to do). Perhaps start with a studio showcase or a local multi-studio comp to drum up interest.

But be careful what you wish for. Pro-am is big business in the US. At the very least, the pros have to find it financially worthwhile, which in the US means that the student pays the pro (usually) an amount that compensates for the income they lose from not being able to teach while competing and a per-dance or flat fee for the comp itself. Not to mention paying the pro's expenses if travel and a hotel stay are involved. Organizing a comp is a lot of work and headache, so comp organizers expect to make a profit, too.

Have you talked with your own teacher about whether it's something they would want to do?

[tangotime]

The " colonies " for want of a better term, have been vastly influenced in the " english " system. That is to say-- majority of schools do not participate in one on one, student teaching for priv. lessons
There are always exceptions, but the majority do not. I have friends here, that will not even accept them in a class !
To our S/ A poster, I know this exists in Jo berg ( A/ murray studio there ) but I doubt it has had any wider influence.

If you are keen to implement-- heres a suggestion-- train beginner teachers, primarily at social level, and when they become proficient, start to book lessons, on a one on one basis. Thats the first step ( no pun ) to implementing , by doing in house ,fun ,1 dance events .

You obviuosly need the demand for private lessons, or the system cannot operate .

[waltzgirl]

Oh my gosh, I didn't realize that in other countries you couldn't dance at all if you didn't have a partner. Thank goodness for pro-am!

[meow]

There are some coaches who will take a single person in private lessons. There are others who won't. Some coaches, if coaching a partnership, will continue to coach one of them if they break up...it is usually the one they have known/taught the longest. Pro-Am doesn't exist here and the only way to dance in a comp is -
1. Am/Am partnership
2. Pro/Pro partnership
3. Medallist (single partnered by am dancer)
4. Medallist couple (non - registered)
There really isn't a market for Pro/Am and I know that people wouldn't want to pay high costs. And, the coaches really aren't that interested. If they still compete they have their own partnership and if not, they have retired from comps and don't want to go back into them. They only coach and adjudicate.

[waltzgirl]

How do you get started dancing in such a situation, if you don't already know someone who would like to be your partner? Or maybe you just don't.

[tangotime]

How do you get started dancing in such a situation, if you don't already know someone who would like to be your partner? Or maybe you just don't.

You attend classes ( if they take singles ) and remember, in most other countries outside the u.s., there is a strong contingent of kids classes that continue ( some of them ) into Jnr and Amat. ranks , where there are constant changes going on , looking for new partners .

The other main reason no singles ?-- the dance profession in the u.k. has always held a higher place in the work force, than the images that have been created in the u.s.-- hence, the professional reputations would not, by the given standards, be acceptable among the qualified members of the various Societies , to perform in Pro / Am comps.

Having said that, I think it is a barrier which could be torn down .

[waltzgirl]

Well, unless there are vastly more men who want to dance in those countries than there are in the US, I just keep thinking of the thousands of women who would love to dance but don't have the opportunity to.

[Angel HI]

So, here in my neck of the woods, there is no pro-am. None. Zilch. Most average dancers don't even know what it is.
I can't keep but think about how do you start such a concept such as pro-am dancing ? What conditions have to be favourable for it to work ? Is it as simple as just talking to the right people ?

Your ideas please.....

We still do not understand that Corne is asking about competition. It might seem, but.....

We might could aide you better with a petit clarification. Oui?

[tangotime]

Well, unless there are vastly more men who want to dance in those countries than there are in the US, I just keep thinking of the thousands of women who would love to dance but don't have the opportunity to.


One should also realise, that pro/am is a marketing " tool ". that the chain schools system ,thrived upon ( and , still does ).

The chains, such as we had in the u.k. , still were partner oriented , and quite often, run as " Mom and Pop" operations ( many still are) with very part time help .

A/M had 2 fairly succesful schools in the u.k. for several yrs . ( freds tried, but failed )

Also to consider, the student " market" and demographic, is vastly different from that in the states outside of London . This is probably true of most European countries .

[Joe]

There's also the fact that guys dancing is less frowned-upon in many other countries than it is in the US (even those muy macho Latin American countries!). So, less disapproval, more guys available to partner with.

[contracheck]

We still do not understand that Corne is asking about competition. It might seem, but.....

We might could aide you better with a petit clarification. Oui?

I think that I understand Corne's question. There are many countries where they don't have Pro-Am category in competition. I think that Corne is asking how she can introduce Pro-Am cartegory to such a country. In one of the countries I visit often, dance is booming and dance studios are mushrooming. They organize increasing number of dance competitions and invite top dancers and coaches from all over the world. I have been keenly interested in competing there with my coach, but the competitions in this country do not have Pro-Am category. My dilema is if I enter a competition there with my coach and pro-partner, do we enter as a Pro-Pro team or as an Am-Am team? Or, will the competition organizers kick us out after I spent tens of thousands of dollars to be there? As far as I can determine, this country has no foggiest idea what Pro-Am is and they have no idea how lucrative device Pro-Am category is. I guess that the question is therefore what is the best way of introducing Pro-Am category into such countries.

[dance234]

Money drives all change, so get them to allow you to do a pro-am exhibition by paying them for the privilege.

[etp777]

Waltzgirl, suspect that it's not as big a problem there due to the different view of dancing and the jr classes, as others here have mentioned. I do know though that several of the pros we have in local region here who came from central/eastern european countries started dancing in jr system (one was estonian 9 dance jr champion, if memory serves), but partnered with their brothers through that. Owners of studio they work at actually just tried really hard to get one of the brothers into country to teach too, but his current job offered him more money.

So the lack of a stigma and the jr classes lets guys see dancing as a good thing from youngest age. They may start dancing with sister or cousin or whatever, then as they grow older and more interested in opposite sex, they've already got a good grounding in dancing AND already have a well organized dance system they've been in for years, so it's easier for partners to find each other.

Just inklings I've picked up here and there. I'm a typical american who had not too friendly stereotypes of male dancers up until a year ago or so. Of course, now dancing is my life. :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, unless there are vastly more men who want to dance in those countries than there are in the US, I just keep thinking of the thousands of women who would love to dance but don't have the opportunity to.

My guess would be that those women are just out of luck. Many years ago (more than 10, but less than 20 :) ) I made an attempt to join ballroom club at the university, but I had to have a partner, they would not take singles. I tried asking my fellow math majors and had no luck, so I gave up the idea, and didn't attempt to get back into dancing until much later.

[Angel HI]

I think that I understand Corne's question. There are many countries where they don't have Pro-Am category in competition. I think that Corne is asking how she can introduce Pro-Am cartegory to such a country. In one of the countries I visit often, dance is booming and dance studios are mushrooming. They organize increasing number of dance competitions and invite top dancers and coaches from all over the world. I have been keenly interested in competing there with my coach, but the competitions in this country do not have Pro-Am category. My dilema is if I enter a competition there with my coach and pro-partner, do we enter as a Pro-Pro team or as an Am-Am team? Or, will the competition organizers kick us out after I spent tens of thousands of dollars to be there? As far as I can determine, this country has no foggiest idea what Pro-Am is and they have no idea how lucrative device Pro-Am category is. I guess that the question is therefore what is the best way of introducing Pro-Am category into such countries.

Merci. I understand. I am not familiar with such countries or policies. However, and this is a question of ignorance, if there is no Pro-Am category, what are, or why have other, categoorical designations, at all? I mean, I don't understand defining one without defining the other or another if even by default.

[meow]

The thing is that here partnered couples are trying to rise up through the ranks and aspire to be champions. For some the possibility is realistic, not for others but that is the goal. So for kids that started in classes and then found a partner when young it is easier than for someone who has just begun dancing in their late teens or older.
We still have loads of group classes for singles and some comps have events to cater for these people. But to compete seriously and get elevation pionts you need a partner.
So, I guess it depends on your goals. If you just want to dance socially and perhaps compete occasionally, then that is available. The next level though, requires a partner. I seriously don't think Pro/Am would fly here.

[Angel HI]

The thing is that here partnered couples are trying to rise up through the ranks and aspire to be champions. For some the possibility is realistic, not for others but that is the goal. So for kids that started in classes and then found a partner when young it is easier than for someone who has just begun dancing in their late teens or older.
We still have loads of group classes for singles and some comps have events to cater for these people. But to compete seriously and get elevation pionts you need a partner.
So, I guess it depends on your goals. If you just want to dance socially and perhaps compete occasionally, then that is available. The next level though, requires a partner. I seriously don't think Pro/Am would fly here.

OK, so am I understanding that there are comps for persons with partners, but there is no Pro-Am category, leaving Am-Am or Pro by default. So amateurs who have only partnered pro partners have no category in which to enter.

If my understanding is correct, then my next question is, "How did this happen?" Is the goal to force persons to be pro?

[Corne]

We still do not understand that Corne is asking about competition. It might seem, but.....

We might could aide you better with a petit clarification. Oui?

Pro-Am competition, yes, something in those lines....

There would be almost no hotel stays or flight costs, except for nationals held every year. Only cost would be entry fees which are very reasonable for comps. Our comps are all held on saturdays, yes, 1 day comps.
Our syllabus dancers have to wear certain comp outfits. Basically the same very plain style dress for ladies, only single/plain color dress allowed; men wear just pants and nice white shirt.

You have to have an amateur partner to compete or else pursue medal tests in order to advance in dancing. For the medal test, you dance with your instructor........ almost the pro-am idea.

As far as single person lessons, i have not had an issue with this. I am willing to dance by myself in lesson or have teacher assistance to provide me with some partner balance.

I mainly think that the problem is that nobody has taken the responsibility/trouble of setting up pro-am comps/pro-am dancing. I believe it is doable here, just that nobody has promoted or done it really (not talking about AM or FA comps).

For those interested, here is a link to our competition entry forms....... http://www.sadancesport.co.za/calendar/2007/Calendar%20Index/04.asp (http://www.sadancesport.co.za/calendar/2007/Calendar%20Index/04.asp)

[Corne]

I think that I understand Corne's question. There are many countries where they don't have Pro-Am category in competition. I think that Corne is asking how she can introduce Pro-Am cartegory to such a country. In one of the countries I visit often, dance is booming and dance studios are mushrooming. They organize increasing number of dance competitions and invite top dancers and coaches from all over the world. I have been keenly interested in competing there with my coach, but the competitions in this country do not have Pro-Am category. My dilema is if I enter a competition there with my coach and pro-partner, do we enter as a Pro-Pro team or as an Am-Am team? Or, will the competition organizers kick us out after I spent tens of thousands of dollars to be there? As far as I can determine, this country has no foggiest idea what Pro-Am is and they have no idea how lucrative device Pro-Am category is. I guess that the question is therefore what is the best way of introducing Pro-Am category into such countries.

Yes, you understand the issue......

[icequeen]

Pro-am is not heard of in a lot of countries. My understanding is that it's common for women who are partner-less to enter comps with other women, kind of like collegiate comps here, but in larger numbers and even at higher levels.

It's interesting. You would think that market forces are such that if there is a demand for pro-am partnerships, they would begin to exist in places where they didn't before. I wonder if there are other, i.e. cultural, factors that prevent this? Is there a negative attitude about pro-am abroad (which I do not share, incidentally), or is it just lack of awareness?

[Corne]

Pro-am is not heard of in a lot of countries. My understanding is that it's common for women who are partner-less to enter comps with other women, kind of like collegiate comps here, but in larger numbers and even at higher levels.

It's interesting. You would think that market forces are such that if there is a demand for pro-am partnerships, they would begin to exist in places where they didn't before. I wonder if there are other, i.e. cultural, factors that prevent this? Is there a negative attitude about pro-am abroad (which I do not share, incidentally), or is it just lack of awareness?

My guess is the latter, lack of awareness. Like in the USA, not everybody would be able to afford pro-am.......

I am going to talk with my instructor about it and see what she says...

yes, the all girl competition is active here...

[waltzgirl]

Perhaps you could tie it to the medal system somehow, since that's where people are used to dancing pro-am--have a local competition for bronze medalists to start with, for example.

[saludas]

Let's not forget that many folks do Pro Am not for the dancing but for the 'experience'. And, not many who do Proam are looking for a lot of dancing, or work (tho many do of course). They bristle at doing dance in sports arenas, dancing without the luxe of a hotel environment, etc. These folks are not looking at Dancesport but at entertainment - and in the US that is the meaning of ProAm.

In your country, perhaps you could do a more 'real' version of ProAm (not getting them on the foor until they are medallists etc) but I really doubt that will fly - you really have to put in so much more time (and that means 'practice with a partner') that it would be cost-prohibitive,....

[Laura]

It might fly, Saludas, if it came out of the country's medalist system, because Pro/Am wouldn't have been already all packaged up as travel & entertainment.

Pro/Am in the US is almost crushed under the weight of its history. I know plenty of dancers and teachers today who don't care about the hotel or the venue, they just want lots of people to dance against at reasonable entry fees and ticket prices. But due to the weight of history...well, that's where we are. No one has actually tried recently to create a low-cost competition-focussed Pro/Am event: it's as if there's one set "model" for the Pro/Am comps and everyone copies it.

It would be interesting for someone to try it to see what happens...but then we run up against the start-up costs of getting an NDCA sanction and date and so on. I looked into this with a friend a few years ago and found that we'd have to start by paying the NDCA $10,000 just to get a sanction for a new comp. That right there is a huge hurdle to surmount when it comes to starting a low-cost comp -- it's a hurdle as big or as bigger than the entire operating budget for the comp!

So we're stuck, for the time being.

[waltzgirl]

A pro I was talking to recently told me that teaching per se only accounts for about half his income. Based on the figures he mentioned, the income he makes from pro-am competition makes the difference between a subsistence wage and a reasonable living.

On the country western circuit, where pro-am costs are much lower, a much higher percentage of teachers have other full-time jobs and teach on the side.

[Chris Stratton]

It would be interesting for someone to try it to see what happens...but then we run up against the start-up costs of getting an NDCA sanction and date and so on. I looked into this with a friend a few years ago and found that we'd have to start by paying the NDCA $10,000 just to get a sanction for a new comp. That right there is a huge hurdle to surmount when it comes to starting a low-cost comp -- it's a hurdle as big or as bigger than the entire operating budget for the comp!

What about designing it to stay within the confines of the local competitions exemption, at least for the first few years? Most of the restrictions there do not apply to pro/am - what you'd be left with is having to avoid conflict with sanctioned events, and a travel distance limitation on who can judge plus only half of the judges being championship rated, but that saves you money anyway. Also you can't have any pro events, but you probably could have pro shows.

But then the question is, are registration costs really the big issue? Or is it more paying their teachers for their time, both at the competition and in preperation for it. Plus expenses like costuems which reach full price earlier in pro/am than elsewhere.

[Laura]

Good points about the "small competition" rules.

But then the question is, are registration costs really the big issue?
In my experience the entry fees are about equal to the price once pays their teacher to dance. Some pay the teacher a lot more, some pay the teacher a good deal less, I'm just talking about averages here. Obviously we can't (and shouldn't really) control how the teachers value their time, but lower entry fees can't hurt anyone but the competition organizer. So if one can organize a competition that runs in a smaller budget, then lower entry fees can be offered. If it makes the difference between someone paying $1000 to attend a competition and someone paying more like $600, that's a hefty chunk of change that I can't imagine anyone wouldn't want to save :)

As for costuming expenses...well, that's such a tricky question for Pro/Ams. See, beginners often "blame" the costume for their placements, when it is really their dancing. So if you tell everyone they can wear what they want, the Bronze and Silver dancers will complain that someone had better costumes than they did. But if you tell everyone no costumes, the the Bronze and Silver dancers who have costumes will complain that they can't wear their expensive dresses. It's a kind of circular thing. Perhaps if (some of) the events were tied to the concept of medalist tests -- as they might be in Corne's country -- then the costume issue goes away because people would just wear what they wore for their tests.

Many NDCA comps already say no costumes for Newcomers, and I've seen a few extend that to beginning Bronze, but as we all know from the USA Dance go-rounds enforcing costume rules can get a little crazy and I'd really hate to have to have "costume police" for a theoretical low-cost Pro/Am comp. I'm just so tired of the whole costume thing. :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

What about designing it to stay within the confines of the local competitions exemption, at least for the first few years? Most of the restrictions there do not apply to pro/am - what you'd be left with is having to avoid conflict with sanctioned events, and a travel distance limitation on who can judge plus only half of the judges being championship rated, but that saves you money anyway. Also you can't have any pro events, but you probably could have pro shows.

But then the question is, are registration costs really the big issue? Or is it more paying their teachers for their time, both at the competition and in preperation for it. Plus expenses like costuems which reach full price earlier in pro/am than elsewhere.

I would say for a large competition which runs over several days, hotel is the biggest expense. At least for a person who dances more than one style. Although last year in Ohio, standard single dances were on Friday and scholarship was on Sunday. A good dress is a larger expense but the kind of expense spreads over many competitions, and in theory it will have some resale value.

But touching off on Saludas's post, pro-am dancers, even the ones who put a lot of work in their dancing and dance at higher levels, tend to be, well, adults considerably beyond college age. And as such, they probably are more willing to pay extra for comfort.

I thought about what I would be willing to give up in exchange for lower entry costs, and that is really just the comfort of the ballroom itself (how convenient that seating is, etc. - but this part is probably important to spectators), package with food, show (but this one is again probably important to non-competing spectators), and also the quality of my hotel room can drop down (but not too much). The rest of the costs for me are either non-negotiable (the floor has to be good, or I won't come back), or they don't depend on comp organizers (i.e. being in Midwest, I have to fly to all but a handful of comps, this cost does not depend on the organizers, and being without a car once I get there limits where I can stay when I get there too).

[latingal]

Let's not forget that many folks do Pro Am not for the dancing but for the 'experience'. And, not many who do Proam are looking for a lot of dancing, or work (tho many do of course). They bristle at doing dance in sports arenas, dancing without the luxe of a hotel environment, etc. These folks are not looking at Dancesport but at entertainment - and in the US that is the meaning of ProAm.

In your country, perhaps you could do a more 'real' version of ProAm (not getting them on the foor until they are medallists etc) but I really doubt that will fly - you really have to put in so much more time (and that means 'practice with a partner') that it would be cost-prohibitive,....

This seems to be a generalization of pro-am that may or may not be true for all members of that group. It might also be read as offensive by members of said group. Can we not go there?

[fascination]

yes...we can "not" go there ;) (acknowleging that there is an element of that, the size of which is debate-able...but won't be)

[saludas]

This seems to be a generalization of pro-am that may or may not be true for all members of that group. It might also be read as offensive by members of said group. Can we not go there?

Well, I did qualify it for 'many' of the group -and I'm sure a reality check with said group will tell us that many folks DO equate convenience with money spent - I certainly do, when I decide to take a cab rather than walk, etc... I don't see this as a 'bad' comment. However, it does point out the other aspect of this - that people like to belive that they are dong it but do not want to acknowledge that they only want certain elemets of it.

[mamboqueen]

Let's not forget that many folks do Pro Am not for the dancing but for the 'experience'. And, not many who do Proam are looking for a lot of dancing, or work (tho many do of course). They bristle at doing dance in sports arenas, dancing without the luxe of a hotel environment, etc. These folks are not looking at Dancesport but at entertainment - and in the US that is the meaning of ProAm.

.

How many pro/ams do you speak to who have this attitude? Not remotely being flip here, but as it is the demographic I come into contact with most frequently during the course of training and competitions, I don't really find many at all who view it as you describe (but perhaps you come into contact with more than I do). The people that I encounter who like to dance for entertainment purposes usually choose to do showcases as they are much more affordable. I will say that perhaps beginning students might not have the competitive drive right away...but it usually develops with those who decide they really enjoy it.

In any event, people choose to do things for reasons that are important to them and their lifestyles. I don't think the "why" really matters much.

[meow]

So amateurs who have only partnered pro partners have no category in which to enter.

If my understanding is correct, then my next question is, "How did this happen?" Is the goal to force persons to be pro?

No. Amateurs cannot be partnered by a Pro at all. Am's can only dance with Am's. If an Am and a Pro become a partnership then the Am must turn Pro, excluding them from Am competition.

[meow]

I have probably seen 2 - 3 Pro/Am events here in the last 14 years - my son was in one once - he was the Am. He was asked to do it by the Pro. There were no payments made by either party. It was more like a novelty event, or at least that is how it seemed. They truly are not popular here and would not take off. And there is no way Am's would pay hundreds of dollars to a Pro just to dance with them at one comp.

[waltzgirl]

I have probably seen 2 - 3 Pro/Am events here in the last 14 years - my son was in one once - he was the Am. He was asked to do it by the Pro. There were no payments made by either party. It was more like a novelty event, or at least that is how it seemed. They truly are not popular here and would not take off. And there is no way Am's would pay hundreds of dollars to a Pro just to dance with them at one comp.


Perhaps current ams wouldn't. But there might be a whole new market of people without partners (most likely women) who would.

[tangotime]

I dont think meow, has a clear picture of the demographic set up, in the states..

You have to go back 50yrs plus, to get a real understanding . The majority of students, at that time, were single ladies, fifty yrs of age and up.

Of course , there were couples and some younger . It was an improprioty, to go dancing in public, without a partner ( for a lady ) .

The A/ m schools , turned this into a business opportunity, and it has been very successful.

You should also know, the number of World class Profs. that were introduced to dance, thru the chain school system ( and some Amat. ).

Would we not have seen the likes of Jenkins, Silvers, Brock ( and their partners )? to name but a few , but for the " chains " . Maybe-- maybe not .

[Tangokid]

Hi I'm the new kid on the block I've been reading what everyone has been saying so I'm going to ask a stupid question. if the states can organize a pro am comp, could something not be done on the same lines in the UK. If not why not. I'm sure their are lots of ladies that have lessons with their dance teachers who cannot find a suitable am dance parnter to go on and compete with. Surely the name of the game is to have fun and enjoy your dancing even if you are competing, why cannot there be a comp for those that dance with a pro.
I;m a firm beliver that all things are possible and not impossible to achieve and that I would be very keen to look into this more is their anyone else in the Uk who would be interested.

Tangokid

[tangotime]

Pro / Am comps, have already been held in the U.K. ( one was in Ireland ? ) it met with little interest, and mainly supported by U.S. competitors .

As I previusly explained, the majority ( large ) have no interest in getting back onto the " comp " floor, indeed , even if they were ever on one !.

The status of the Prof. in the u.k., is greatly different from that of the States. ( worked both sides for multi yrs ), and few profs., take one on one for private ( and even group ) lessons .

Prof. reputations are closely guarded , and I doubt they would be approved here , by the powers that be.

Will add- I am not opposed to the idea in principle .

[meow]

I dont think meow, has a clear picture of the demographic set up, in the states..

You have to go back 50yrs plus, to get a real understanding . The majority of students, at that time, were single ladies, fifty yrs of age and up.

Of course , there were couples and some younger . It was an improprioty, to go dancing in public, without a partner ( for a lady ) .

I'm sure I don't have a clear picture of what goes on in the States. :) There are other topics on DF where I have asked q's which may have come across as silly to some. I can understand from your post how this started and can see how a financial advantage was pounced on. But now, and here, it wouldn't fly. And it isn't just the Am's that wouldn't be interested, it is the Pro's. The ones that are still competing as Pro, put all their spare time into training with their own partner. The ones that only teach are 'over it' - they have retired from competing and, the ones I have talked to say they wouldn't go back on the floor.:)

[meow]

Perhaps current ams wouldn't. But there might be a whole new market of people without partners (most likely women) who would.

It is really hard to get 'new' people to start dance unless they already have a passion for it. It is the costs involved and no matter how much one loves to dance, the $ factor comes into it.
Most people cringe at the cost of a private lesson. Then they hear about registration, outfits, comp entries, travel, the list goes on......This puts off a lot of people so they do medals or socials instead.
If paying for a pro to dance with you at a comp and all their expenses (I think that's what happens, isn't it?) was included, no-one here could afford it. There are always grumblings regarding dance costs, I know, but this truly would not fly here.:)

[elisedance]

It is really hard to get 'new' people to start dance unless they already have a passion for it. It is the costs involved and no matter how much one loves to dance, the $ factor comes into it.
Most people cringe at the cost of a private lesson. Then they hear about registration, outfits, comp entries, travel, the list goes on......This puts off a lot of people so they do medals or socials instead.
If paying for a pro to dance with you at a comp and all their expenses (I think that's what happens, isn't it?) was included, no-one here could afford it. There are always grumblings regarding dance costs, I know, but this truly would not fly here.:)

You might think so - but surely there are women with money in Austraila as everywhere else. As I am sure you kow, once the bug hits its hard to find a replacement so you do whats necessary to dance. If the numbers of women and men are approximately equal the maybe there is currently not much driving force for pro/am to start, but if its like everywhere else where the women outnumber the men then there is a potential market. I would imagine that Pro/Am would not start nor end up the same as here - the way it is here is adapted to north american culture. There are many variants here too. At the top levels women (with a lot of resources) basically emply a pro for their competitions in gold and higher. This is not in any way a pathetic woman paying a man to dance, such as one might imagine with a gigolo, but an independent woman with resources paying for a service and choosing to dance pro/am so that she remains in control and can do so as long and wherever she wants to. I have mixed with these women and their partners and they are smart, capable and determined to succeed - not in the slightest the sterotype pro/am competitor that too often is slurred on the DF threads.

[Laura]

It is really hard to get 'new' people to start dance unless they already have a passion for it. It is the costs involved and no matter how much one loves to dance, the $ factor comes into it.
Most people cringe at the cost of a private lesson. Then they hear about registration, outfits, comp entries, travel, the list goes on......
Yet people in Australia get into other expensive hobbies, like serious golf, yacht racing, horse showing....

I don't buy the idea that Australians don't/won't spend money on an expensive hobby as being the barrier here. It's more of a marketing/awareness/availability thing, and also as Tangotime says the roots of US Pro/Am go back 50 years. Some unique circumstances were present and leveraged at a certain point in time in the US, and what we have here now is result of all that.

[icequeen]

I'm sure I don't have a clear picture of what goes on in the States. :) There are other topics on DF where I have asked q's which may have come across as silly to some. I can understand from your post how this started and can see how a financial advantage was pounced on. But now, and here, it wouldn't fly. And it isn't just the Am's that wouldn't be interested, it is the Pro's. The ones that are still competing as Pro, put all their spare time into training with their own partner. The ones that only teach are 'over it' - they have retired from competing and, the ones I have talked to say they wouldn't go back on the floor.:)

I'm confused then. How do actively-competing pros outside of the US make money? Lots of the competing pros in the U.S. teach as a way to make money so that they can continue to train and compete. Are you saying then that in Australia, actively-competing pros have other jobs to make them money or that they are all independently wealthy? Maybe these pros might like the idea of pro-am if they can make more money that way, and so maybe the market for pro-am can come not just from the am side but from the pro side?

On a slightly different topic, I wonder if any of you guys know whether the pros in the US like competing pro-am in part because they like the competitive aspect of it. For example, I've met pro instructors who no longer compete as pro-pro, but still want to be involved in competition.

[Laura]

It's an individual thing, to be sure. Some enjoy ability to stay somehow involved in the dancing scene. Some really have a lot of caring and pride invested in their students, and enjoy competing in Pro/Am for those reasons. Some do it because they have no other real money-making skills, and Pro/Am can be a big money maker for the teacher. I bet most Pros are a combination of these three aspects in various degrees.

[waltzgirl]

I'm sure I don't have a clear picture of what goes on in the States. :) There are other topics on DF where I have asked q's which may have come across as silly to some. I can understand from your post how this started and can see how a financial advantage was pounced on. But now, and here, it wouldn't fly. And it isn't just the Am's that wouldn't be interested, it is the Pro's. The ones that are still competing as Pro, put all their spare time into training with their own partner. The ones that only teach are 'over it' - they have retired from competing and, the ones I have talked to say they wouldn't go back on the floor.:)


How do pros support themselves?

[meow]

How do pros support themselves?

OK. Some pro's teach both locally and interstate. If they are asked to teach interstate it is usually for the whole weekend - I know of a number who do this every week. All expenses are paid and they are paid.
Some pro's work at normal jobs but teach part-time (although most of the ones I know teach full-time).
All the studio's are owned by former dancers who usually still teach. My son (am dancer) who is now 21 was teaching (accredited) full-time at a studio and was able to support himself and his dancing. He isn't currently teaching but not because he couldn't make a living.
Some pro's travel overseas and work at anything to have lessons with top coaches in another country.
Then some also teach Debutante sets at schools, perform floorshows, etc.

But, the pro's that are still competing devote as much time as they can to their own training.
The pro's who have retired from competing and teach - they are the ones who say they are glad not to be competing anymore. They are the ones who are on the committees for dancesport, own studios, organise competitions, travel to coach and some even have their own dance clothing and photography businesses. Most are also adjudicators and medal examiners.
When there (rare) is a Pro/Am event scheduled, there is maybe 4 couples in it as most pro's aren't interested. Sometimes the event has been cancelled due to lack of entries.

And yes, there are wealthy Aussie's around who play golf and have yachts but they have a passion for those things. And there are lots of wealthy people who dance - I guess that the major problem is that pro's aren't interested. The wealthy ladies I have seen at the studio 'seem' happy enough to have their private lessons and nothing else. They aren't actively looking for a partner. But, believe me, I know some very wealthy dance people who never stop whining about the costs involved in dancing, be it for themselves or their children.

I think we are in the same boat when it comes to more females than males. Also, we are a smaller population with a much smaller dance community than yours. Perhaps these demographics play a part.

Another thing is this. And I'm stating now that I do not know if this is true or not - many people have the view that Am's are better dancers than competing Pro's and that those who turn Pro at a young age do so because they know they will never 'make it' in the amateur ranks. :confused: This has been said to me by many people, some of whom are considered very experienced and knowledgeable in Dancesport. I, myself, am not qualified to make such comments. But this is being said about some competing pro's, not the retired ones or those pro's who are in the top echelons.

I think there are many reasons why it hasn't caught on here and I don't think it will.

[Chris Stratton]

And it isn't just the Am's that wouldn't be interested, it is the Pro's. The ones that are still competing as Pro, put all their spare time into training with their own partner.

There can be a very real conflict between time spent with students and time spent with partner, but the money that can be made can make it a strategic tradeoff. Not just teaching lots of hours, but potentially several thousand dollars in fees during a single competition weekend. That can then fund useful things... like flying to England frequently to take lessons to improve their own dancing.

[meow]

There can be a very real conflict between time spent with students and time spent with partner, but the money that can be made can make it a strategic tradeoff. Not just teaching lots of hours, but potentially several thousand dollars in fees during a single competition weekend. That can then fund useful things... like flying to England frequently to take lessons to improve their own dancing.

I see your point but they still wouldn't do it. There are only a few comps here that run a full weekend. If those Pro's are dancing for themselves at that comp then they would not dance with others as well - they would want to save all their energy for their own events. I know that it is harder to get medallists covered with a partner as even some Am's want to 'save' their energy for their own events. I'm sure it has to do with a smaller demographic - at some of our more prestigeous competitions there will only be a handful of pro's competing.

[mummsie]

Well, unless there are vastly more men who want to dance in those countries than there are in the US, I just keep thinking of the thousands of women who would love to dance but don't have the opportunity to.
Yes this is true - always more ladies who want to dance. That is why most comps here have individual events. People who want to compete but who don't have a partner ask somebody at their studio to dance with them as their partner for the individual events. The person who is competing be it the lady or man wears the back number and they are the only one judged for that event. A lot of the time, the partner is another female or an older person or even a person with a regular partner (this usually happens at our studio). Both my son and my son in law have been regular partners for individual ladies and when my daughter was much younger - junior age - I danced with her as her partner. Mummsie :-)

[tangotime]

From your posts, i would gather you are on the " younger " side ?,

Let me explain how things were ( and still are in many many cases ), in the UK.
The majority of teachers , had full time jobs , and taught classes in the evenings, and priv, and kids Sat. and Sun . That system still survives today.

You may have the impression, as do many, that all teachers, in the UK , were at one time competing professionals . The percentage who did not, would astound you . Of those that did, many only went as far as Amat. status, and either quit completly or trained to teach ( invariably part time ) .

As to your Q. how do Profs. who do not do pro/am make money ?- they train amat couples, and if you are high enough in the rankings-- pros.

The American system is unique, for several reasons, and it is done by A/Murray schools in S africa --N. Z. Canada , Germany etc .-- not on such a scale as the states, but, nonetheless, it works ( it was even in the u.k. for many yrs in Ldn and Manchester ) .

Sustaining a system as such, not only requires a constant flow of potential students, but also the same rule applies to trainee teachers ( they come and go fairly quickly ) .

[waltzgirl]

From your posts, i would gather you are on the " younger " side ?,

Let me explain how things were ( and still are in many many cases ), in the UK.
The majority of teachers , had full time jobs , and taught classes in the evenings, and priv, and kids Sat. and Sun . That system still survives today.

You may have the impression, as do many, that all teachers, in the UK , were at one time competing professionals . The percentage who did not, would astound you . Of those that did, many only went as far as Amat. status, and either quit completly or trained to teach ( invariably part time ) .

As to your Q. how do Profs. who do not do pro/am make money ?- they train amat couples, and if you are high enough in the rankings-- pros.

The American system is unique, for several reasons, and it is done by A/Murray schools in S africa --N. Z. Canada , Germany etc .-- not on such a scale as the states, but, nonetheless, it works ( it was even in the u.k. for many yrs in Ldn and Manchester ) .

Sustaining a system as such, not only requires a constant flow of potential students, but also the same rule applies to trainee teachers ( they come and go fairly quickly ) .

If your first comment was directed at me, no, I don't think I'd consider myself on the "younger" side. :)

The fact that most teachers have other full time jobs was what I was getting at, when I asked how pros supported themselves. As I mentioned somewhere, talking to a very respected teacher in my area whose schedule is so full he's not accepting new students, he says half his income comes from teaching itself, the other half from pro-am comps. The figures he mentioned suggest that teaching only provides a pretty subsistence wage, while comps add enough to make it a reasonable living. So I was wondering how if most teachers where meow is make their living--can they support themselves with fulltime teaching without comp fees?

[tangotime]

I think a lot depends on the life style you wish to support , and of course, dictated by ones prof. experience .

For e.g.-- when I had young children, my income level, had to support the family structure ( and it did ) .

Owning dance schools for many yrs, to maintain my staff, it was always important to me, that they were able to teach sufficient hrs etc., thus lowering the staff turnover . ( I did not employ any part time teachers ) .

In many chain schools today, weekly guarantees are provided . This is something, of which independant teachers cannot avail themselves .

The area which has not been approached in these dialogues-- the lady teachers, in the profession .
That makes for a whole new topic .

[Chris Stratton]

I see your point but they still wouldn't do it. There are only a few comps here that run a full weekend.

I'm not saying it would work where you are, and I'm certainly not saying that you should restructure your dance scene around it. However, when I said a few thousand dollars from one weekend, that's potentially (for a semifinalist or finalist level pro) a few thousand from one student, in just a few related events.

If those Pro's are dancing for themselves at that comp then they would not dance with others as well - they would want to save all their energy for their own events.

No question it's an issue. But because it can pay for things the partnership needs, most US pros do it.

[dance234]

I've often been curious as to how pros in other countries support themselves also. The US professional ranks are packed with non-American dancers who freely admit that they relocated here specifically because the economic opportunities for pro dancers are a million times better than wherever it is they came from. (Plus they can go from obscure semifinalists to superstars - read the story of Max and Yulia in Dancebeat for a good illustration of this.)

The existence of a hobbyist class of adult dancers, some of whom are willing to pay a lot of money for this hobby (not just to dance pro-am but to go to dance camps, buy couture costumes either new or off the backs of pros who need to constantly buy and sell new costumes, get professional hair and makeup, etc) enables the sustenance of an entire class of professional dancer in the US. Even professionals who are not top finalists can make a very nice living thanks to the hobbyist market.

[meow]

Please don't think I am canning your system. And I certainly don't understand your system fully. I can only comment on how it works here. The system that tangotime referred to in the UK still works well here. But, of course, there could be many improvements.
And, we also have the same set-up for partnering at our studio that mummsie mentioned. The only problem is that more and more am's are getting their accreditation and that disqualifies them from partnering medallists at comps.
Unfortunately, there are also a large number of Am's thinking that they 'should' get accredited; everyone else is so I guess I had; and then they don't teach anyway. So, having that accreditation, for some, is a very convenient excuse not to have to partner.
And I can see that the money would be great for a Pro, especially if they have retired from their own competition life.
I might suggest moving to the States to my son when he is much older and has retired from competing. If he becomes a world class top dancer in his career then that may be an option later.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Yes this is true - always more ladies who want to dance. That is why most comps here have individual events. People who want to compete but who don't have a partner ask somebody at their studio to dance with them as their partner for the individual events. The person who is competing be it the lady or man wears the back number and they are the only one judged for that event. A lot of the time, the partner is another female or an older person or even a person with a regular partner (this usually happens at our studio). Both my son and my son in law have been regular partners for individual ladies and when my daughter was much younger - junior age - I danced with her as her partner. Mummsie :-)

So, nobody tried to tap into that potential market?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

So Australia has mixed proficiency where the U.S. would have pro/am? Is it possible for mixed proficiency and pro/am to coexist in large numbers?

[meow]

So Australia has mixed proficiency where the U.S. would have pro/am? Is it possible for mixed proficiency and pro/am to coexist in large numbers?

By 'mixed proficiency', do you mean medallists? If so, most medallists are Juevenile through to Youth, with some adults. These are partnered by others at the same level or by registered dancers at no cost - it is done out of kindness.
If you mean a registered Am dancing with a Pro (just for an event) that can't happen here as, unless it is a specified event (which is as rare as hen's teeth) then the Am must turn Pro and enter a regular Pro event. The rules here just do not cater for such a possibility. We very much follow the Bristish system in most things and Dancesport Australia leans very much towards the IDSF. In Britain they may have Pro-Am, i don't know, but it isn't a goer here. And our numbers, I'm sure would be lower than yours just considering the difference in population.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Mixed proficiency is an event in which two amateurs of different proficiency levels dance together, but only the less advanced dancer is judged. I think it's practically non-existent over here. I guess it makes sense as there are so many opportunites for unpartnered people to dance pro-am. It sounds like the reverse is true in Australia. Mixed proficiency is already established, so there isn't room for pro-am to take hold.

[meow]

Your mixed proficiency is our medallists. They are doing medals and can compete at a comp that has a medallist division and only one is being judged. But, these dancers are not considered Am's. They have never been registered to dance Am. Once someone has been registered and is no longer registered, they cannot dance a comp again as a medallist. They have to find a new partnership.

[Tangokid]

Hi

Could someone tell me if they do hold Pro/AM comps in the UK

[meow]

I was most surprised to find we had a recent event of Pro/Am here. Hearing about it, I checked out some info.
The comp was the 2007 International Megastars Gold Coast Dancesport Championships.
The comp was in August and was an IDSF comp in Adult Open Standard and Latin.
It is a large comp, held over a whole weekend and there were floorshows from Bryan Watson and Carmen and Michael Malitowski and Joanna Leunis.
There was a Pro/am event and, from the info I gathered, only two couples took to the floor. It was again a 'fun' event. It was mentioned in the Aust Dance Review but I cannot find any info on the internet even mentioning it.
I just thought I would post this to show how Pro/Am here just isn't a goer.

[mamboqueen]

hey, it just takes a few people to start it going....I bet it catches on, meow!

[meow]

Maybe, but I doubt it after listening to comments from those that were at the comp and talking to one of the pro's who was in the event.

[elisedance]

OK. I'm moving to Australia and talking Laura into coming too. We'll flash our check books and whatcha know? Pro/am will suddenly take hold....

[mamboqueen]

Yup, money talks!

[elisedance]

gonna join us MQ? the invasion of the (pro) body snatchers.... [moving through the body, of course]

[mamboqueen]

Sure, I've never been to the land down under (must be an awfully-long plane ride, tho!!).

[elisedance]

Sure, I've never been to the land down under (must be an awfully-long plane ride, tho!!).

I flew to NZ in February - and the worst part was the Air Canad from here to LA. Dreadfully uncomfortable seats. However, the Air NZ is expert at this - the seats go almost flat and are beautifully made (least on our 747 upgrade plane) and all my fears were unfounded.

[Laura]

OK. I'm moving to Australia and talking Laura into coming too. We'll flash our check books and whatcha know? Pro/am will suddenly take hold....
I've got enough frequent flyer miles for a free biz-class seat :)

I've actually danced in Pro/Am competitions one or twice against a woman from Melbourne, Australia.

[latingal]

At the last competition I was at, there was a pro/am couple listed from Russia...I was rather amazed!

[Laura]

Oh yeah -- there were several Pro/Am couples from Russia at Embassy Ball! I think there were three or four: I saw two in the Latin, and two in Standard.

[reb]

Arthur Murray lists studios in:

Sydney
Crows Nest
Melbourne
Adelaide
Blackburnand lists Bayside and Hawthorn East as opening soon.

Watch out!

[meow]

Hey guys, you can all come out here. We would have a grand time and you can take over aussie dancesport. I even know some board members you can hijack.:rolleyes:
And if Pro/Am takes off, that would be good for Dear Son when he has finished amateur in a few years.:D
Long flight but summer is coming.:cheers:

[elisedance]

Hmm. We could be like arctic terns and 'comute' across the hemispheres to always pro/am in the sun. All we need is an infinite source of money. Why does it always come down to that??? Oh, I suppose we do have a near infinite source of airline points coutesy of Laura.

[meow]

Well, one thing is for sure. The Pro's here would faint at being offered $$$$$ to partner. The only other problem is getting a Pro/Am event in the program.

[elisedance]

I doubt it. The comp organizers will react to the $$$$ just the same as the pros. The key is to have more than one pro/am couple in the same event! Its like the proverbial story of the lawyer in the pioneer town who is a pauper - until a second lawyer moves into town....

[meow]

Other than entry fees, do the organisors get an extra fee from the pro's or am's?

[elisedance]

No thats it - but the way its set up each am will likely do very many entries, generating a lot of fees for both the pro and comp. On the other hand, the comp has to come up wiht the schollarship prizes - but they often cover these by ensuring that all schollarship entrants do a minimum number of the lesser events. I'm not sure if its possible to actually make a profit (by the am that is), just to reduce your costs.

[waltzgirl]

Big pro-am comps can have 8-10,000 entries--at $25-40 per entry, plus fees for each session attended (including those you dance in) from $15 for day sessions to $40-60 for evening sessions. There's a lot of money involved.

[meow]

Well, not only would you have to interest the pro's and the am's but also the organisors. They would probably love the $$$$ but it sounds like a lot more work to organise than what they are used to doing. IME, the comps we have exhaust the organisors and I wonder if they would relish the extra work or find the people to help. Loads of stuff here is done on a voluntary basis as well. We all kind of joke about 'dancing' - everything is left to the last minute.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Well, not only would you have to interest the pro's and the am's but also the organisors. They would probably love the $$$$ but it sounds like a lot more work to organise than what they are used to doing. IME, the comps we have exhaust the organisors and I wonder if they would relish the extra work or find the people to help. Loads of stuff here is done on a voluntary basis as well. We all kind of joke about 'dancing' - everything is left to the last minute.

If they want $$$$ badly enough, they'll do it. Although, no offense, but at times you sound as if you wouldn't want pro-am initiatives to take hold in your area.

[meow]

If they want $$$$ badly enough, they'll do it. Although, no offense, but at times you sound as if you wouldn't want pro-am initiatives to take hold in your area.

I can see why you might think that. To be honest, I don't know enough about Pro/Am to determine whether or not I would like it. I can only go on what I know about here, what others say, and the way Dancesport here is currently run. That's why I ask ??? Then I can ask ??? of people here what they think about it. So far, I haven't come across those who seem enthusiastic about it.

[elisedance]

So is there an even number of men and women interested in ballroom there, meow, and if not - if its like here with many more women - what do they do? Go to dances and hope for the best - or do dancers who are in couples also dance with singles at dances? Thats something thats really bad here - established couples just about never dance with anyone else other than their DP.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I can see why you might think that. To be honest, I don't know enough about Pro/Am to determine whether or not I would like it. I can only go on what I know about here, what others say, and the way Dancesport here is currently run. That's why I ask ??? Then I can ask ??? of people here what they think about it. So far, I haven't come across those who seem enthusiastic about it.

That probably depends on who you ask. If you ask ams who're already paired up, there wouldn't be much interest there. Ams who have a partner aren't interested in competing pro-am here either (at least most of them aren't). Or if you ask pros and organizers who're happy with their cashflow, they also would be unresponsive. But as elisedance says, there is probably a lot more women than men who want to dance, and that's the market for pro-am. And I bet you have some pros there who would be interested in extra income they will derive from pro-am competitions. Like with everything, though, it needs to reach a certain critical mass to become visible.

[meow]

When you guys mention 'dance party's' I take that to mean that they are held at a studio, right? Is it where they play music and you can just ask whoever you want to dance, sit out if you want, perhaps light *******ment is provided? If that is the case, we basically don't have them.
We will have a Medal Night, which will include gold medal exams and social dancing. We have Cabarets which are nights where younger medallists receive their marks and awards, maybe a floorshow and social dancing. These are the only times that tables are provided and BYO everything else for between $10 - 15.
The other is the "Adult Social' which is a somewhat structured class - in this you are not allowed to sit out and wait to be asked to dance - it is a class. Some people get their introduction to dance through this - some move on and do medals, others find a partner.
One of the probs is actually knowing how many women there are who want to compete and can't - they certainly are not sitting around the studio - they only come in for their lesson and leave.
The system is geared towards Amateur. Partnership forming, with studio assistance is Amateur. The Pro's look after themselves.
Even at the Aust C/ships there are not many Pro couples actually competing, maybe starts with a semi with no heats, then the final.
Next time I see a couple of well-respected coaches (who could dance Pro if they chose) I will ask them what they think of the concept and let you know. One is Latin and the other is ballroom. They are also adjusicators, etc., with one a board member.

[Laura]

When you guys mention 'dance party's' I take that to mean that they are held at a studio, right? Is it where they play music and you can just ask whoever you want to dance, sit out if you want, perhaps light re.freshment is provided? If that is the case, we basically don't have them.
Oh my, really? Don't people ever go social dancing? If so, where?

[meow]

Nowhere. Unless you want to go to a nightclub. We don't have informal dance nights at studios.

[waltzgirl]

Wow! No social dancing? That seems a real shame.

[meow]

I know. Things are very different here, some for the better, others for the worse. So, can you see why it is difficult to see Pro/am taking off?

[elisedance]

I favor the dames-with-checkbooks invasion. Sound rather like the system is a bit inbred from your description - more like 'Strictly Ballroom' than one might prefer... Basically, the 'system' is set up so rigedly that it may sacrifice people's needs in order to maintain protocol. Maybe I am overstating it, but thats the feeling I get. we have a bit of that here too - an amateur association that sets regulations that seem to be beyond either its rights or even the sports needs.

[meow]

I have spoken to someone who is experienced in Dancesport both here and overseas and I have been both correct and incorrect!:???:

I shall start with where I was incorrect. There are studios here that cater for social dancing along the lines as you guys have been describing. They have dance parties and social dancing. They have their own medal system, in-house comps etc. But, they have nothing to do with 'competitive dancesport.' They don't have couples who compete in Dancesport and don't want to get involved in 'proper' Dancesport.

I was coming from the Dancesport side of things - major comps, overseas comps (like Blackpool), striving to attain world rankings and titles, etc. In this, I was correct.

What happens though is that the two above do not 'overlap' - they are separate entities and that is why I wasn't aware of those studios that exist solely for social dancing.

Now, Dancesport here, as previously stated does not have Pro/Am unless it is a novelty event.
The reasons are varied but include-
- Not enough younger Pro's to sustain Pro/Am
- the older Pro's aren't interested

The younger Pro's who do Pro/Am go offshore to the US and Asia. There travel, accommodation etc., is covered by the wealthy person who is willing to pay them to partner them at comps. They have to go offshore as there isn't a market for them here. So, they make their big $$$ and then come home.:)

The other interesting factor, I was informed, is that Danceport in the US is huge compared to Australia, so much so that we really can't be compared. Dancesport Aust is 'very small' and the numbers just are not there to support the Pro/Am concept.

So, my source, who has danced worldwide, coaches, adjudicates etc., agreed - Pro/Am in competitive Dancesport here would not be viable. I was told that to compare the US to Aust - too different.

[elisedance]

I suppose another factor is distance. Australia is vast with relatively few places with sufficiently large populations to host the size of competition necessary to sustain pro/am competition.

[meow]

I suppose another factor is distance. Australia is vast with relatively few places with sufficiently large populations to host the size of competition necessary to sustain pro/am competition.

Spot on, ED. And, unfortunately we are so far away from other countries.

[elisedance]

Well, I think we should fix that! Hmm. How about a bridge from Sydney to LA?

[Laura]

The other interesting factor, I was informed, is that Danceport in the US is huge compared to Australia, so much so that we really can't be compared. Dancesport Aust is 'very small' and the numbers just are not there to support the Pro/Am concept.
Interesting. In the US we think that dancesport is very small as compared to the European and Asian countries. For instance, we only have about 6000 registered Amateur competitors, and not all of them are actually competing! (This figure does not include the Pro/Am student competitors, who aren't registered with any governing body.) How many competitive members does Dancesport Australia have?

[Joe]

I shall start with where I was incorrect. There are studios here that cater for social dancing along the lines as you guys have been describing. They have dance parties and social dancing. They have their own medal system, in-house comps etc. But, they have nothing to do with 'competitive dancesport.' They don't have couples who compete in Dancesport and don't want to get involved in 'proper' Dancesport.
How very, uh, "chain studio." ;)

[star_gazer]

The other interesting factor, I was informed, is that Danceport in the US is huge compared to Australia, so much so that we really can't be compared.Thats seems strange because my kids danced youth standard/modern in the AC last December and there were many more entries at the championship level...I recall they said between 35 and 40...than in either of the US youth championships.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I have spoken to someone who is experienced in Dancesport both here and overseas and I have been both correct and incorrect!:???:

I shall start with where I was incorrect. There are studios here that cater for social dancing along the lines as you guys have been describing. They have dance parties and social dancing. They have their own medal system, in-house comps etc. But, they have nothing to do with 'competitive dancesport.' They don't have couples who compete in Dancesport and don't want to get involved in 'proper' Dancesport.

I was coming from the Dancesport side of things - major comps, overseas comps (like Blackpool), striving to attain world rankings and titles, etc. In this, I was correct.

What happens though is that the two above do not 'overlap' - they are separate entities and that is why I wasn't aware of those studios that exist solely for social dancing.

Now, Dancesport here, as previously stated does not have Pro/Am unless it is a novelty event.
The reasons are varied but include-
- Not enough younger Pro's to sustain Pro/Am
- the older Pro's aren't interested

The younger Pro's who do Pro/Am go offshore to the US and Asia. There travel, accommodation etc., is covered by the wealthy person who is willing to pay them to partner them at comps. They have to go offshore as there isn't a market for them here. So, they make their big $$$ and then come home.:)

The other interesting factor, I was informed, is that Danceport in the US is huge compared to Australia, so much so that we really can't be compared. Dancesport Aust is 'very small' and the numbers just are not there to support the Pro/Am concept.

So, my source, who has danced worldwide, coaches, adjudicates etc., agreed - Pro/Am in competitive Dancesport here would not be viable. I was told that to compare the US to Aust - too different.

How do studios manage to maintain such segregation? In particular, how is it possible for studios which work with competitive dancers only to do just that and still stay afloat financially. From what I understand about studios in US, the bulk of their income comes from people who want to learn dancing for social purposes.

[Chris Stratton]

The other interesting factor, I was informed, is that Danceport in the US is huge compared to Australia, so much so that we really can't be compared. Dancesport Aust is 'very small' and the numbers just are not there to support the Pro/Am concept.

This is probably untrue, at least in terms of dancing that you would recognize as consistent with what you think of as dancesport.

Adding pro/am will produce only a tiny increase in "dancesport". Substantial numbers of people who would not be dancing in a pro/am-less country may then have the opportunity to dance in some way, but only a fraction of them would be dancing as they might in what the rest of the world thinks of as a dancesport competition.

In the majority of cases, pro/am is not a means of doing dancesport without a partner, instead it's far more often a means for those not in a position to do dancesport to do something else, though of course there are exceptions.

And just taking a step back, I'd point out that neither "dancesport" nor what usually happens in pro/am consistently fits my personal definition of "ballroom dancing". Certainly there are people with the skill to be ballroom dancing during a dancesport competition, but it no longer seems to be a requirement.

[elisedance]

And just taking a step back, I'd point out that neither "dancesport" nor what usually happens in pro/am consistently fits my personal definition of "ballroom dancing". Certainly there are people with the skill to be ballroom dancing during a dancesport competition, but it no longer seems to be a requirement.

Chris: I think this would be an interesting thread on its own. How do we define ballroom dancing vs dancesport. Though the pro/am aspect of this may already have been worked to death....

[meow]

How do studios manage to maintain such segregation? In particular, how is it possible for studios which work with competitive dancers only to do just that and still stay afloat financially. From what I understand about studios in US, the bulk of their income comes from people who want to learn dancing for social purposes.

Studios which have competitive dancers still have medal classes and structured socials. Where we are there is a junior social class, teenage social class, adult social class and street lating social class per week. These are not 'dance parties' but classes where you could have 50 or 60 people attend each one. Then medal classes are running in 3 styles (Ballroom, Latin and New Vogue) at different levels. Prices for these range between $7 - $10 per person.
Competitive couples could be learning 3 styles, therefore having 3 lessons per week at $60 per hour.
And, FMI, the studios want the segregation. The studios that have dance parties, outings, etc., are happy not to have competitive couples.

[meow]

Interesting. In the US we think that dancesport is very small as compared to the European and Asian countries. For instance, we only have about 6000 registered Amateur competitors, and not all of them are actually competing! (This figure does not include the Pro/Am student competitors, who aren't registered with any governing body.) How many competitive members does Dancesport Australia have?

I can only get figures from 2006. We have appropimately 3000 competitve dancers (1500 couples) nationally, covering Juevenile, Junior, Youth, Adult, Masters 1 and Masters 2. Not all are competing all the time. And this figure also includes the competing Professional couples. So, if you think you are small, we are even smaller.:eek:

[waltzgirl]

In reality, in the US, you may have the same sort of stratification in any area that is large enough to support more than one studio. Where I live there are several--one is primarily competition-oriented, one totally social dancing focused, one focuses mostly on salsa, one on country and west coast swing, etc. They all advertise themselves as teaching pretty much everything, but actually end up a bit specialized, as they attract teachers and students based on a reputation for one aspect. But they all have parties!

[meow]

But they all have parties!

Well, it is different here.

[Corne]

update:

The South African Social Dance Foundation is having a "pro-am" comp in december. We will indeed be competing international style and you/student dance with your teacher. They don't label it pro-am comp but merely a comp for fun. Don't know how good the participation is going to be since december is beach weather and most people head for the seashore.
And, it sounds like my teacher is not going to ask me a penny for dancing with her.
I am glad indeed. Now i just need to really learn the foxtrot by then. I have a waltz routine and half a tango routine.

[elisedance]

update:

The South African Social Dance Foundation is having a "pro-am" comp in december. ...And, it sounds like my teacher is not going to ask me a penny for dancing with her.


I dare say it would be cheaper to fly to SA and compete there than to do pro/am in a city other than your own in NA! It would be interesting to cost it out...

[Corne]

ed....... the venue is close to Joburg International Airport. In fact a casino close by is the venue. Entry cost is about R100 ( R100 / 7 = $14 for all dances in your category, probably all 5 standard for gold level).

Unfortunately for you december is high season for south african travellers back home and tourists alike. Just book early should you decide to come. You can fly direct from JFK, Wasihngton DC (Dulles) and Atlanta to Joburg.

They will have divisions for bronze, silver and gold and professional.

[elisedance]

Its a LOVELY idea - I would very much like to visit SA but its not going to happen this year. We have to establish ourselves here so all $s are going towards canadian comps for a while.

Still, maybe next time....

[Joe]

Ah, summer in SA.