So You Think You Can Dance Argentine Tango [Archive]

08-03-2007, 10:02 AM

My opinion:

Strutting like a horse and giving the camera sleazy, "Yes, I am so sexy" looks is not Argentine Tango. That was, at best, theatre arts with an Argentine influence.

They bring in qualified hip-hop instructors on this show. They're not popping around in a theatre arts piece - they are dancing HIP HOP. Why is Argentine Tango so continually treated like a throw-away dance? Everybody on that show gripes about how intriciate and difficult it is, but, unless memory fails me, all they have ever done is bring in Latin dance instructors to throw a routine together. Of course I am not saying that the contestants should get out there and dance closed embrace. But, what I am saying is, there are plenty of very accomplished fantasia/stage tango choreographers who could do AT justice and still keep the American audience engaged.

If the exec's answer is, "We don't feel the audience would understand Argentine Tango" then please spare me the agony and take it out.

Dave Bailey

08-03-2007, 11:06 AM

If the exec's answer is, "We don't feel the audience would understand Argentine Tango" then please spare me the agony and take it out.
Well, it's not agony - as I said, I watched it. But it's not AT.

I guess learning / doing show tango (Tango Fantasia), which is designed for performance situations, would have involved more actual work, or something.

08-03-2007, 11:30 AM

Well, it's not agony - as I said, I watched it. But it's not AT.

I guess learning / doing show tango (Tango Fantasia), which is designed for performance situations, would have involved more actual work, or something.

I admit, agony is a strong word. I guess I was thinking in general of all of the AT performances, including the ones from last season, not just the one from this week. I think it's the blatant stereotyping across the board that irritates me so.

samina

08-03-2007, 11:34 AM

Actually, I liked it too - nice and flamboyant, lots of attitude, they looked like they were having fun. But I wouldn't call it AT, is all I meant.

It's possible to enjoy watching a dance that isn't AT after all :)

Maybe there should be a new variant - FreeTango...

am thinking that for the purposes of the show, every sort of dance style used is going to be loosely interpreted. i could be wrong, from what i've seen so far, the choreography isn't intended for the purist, but to lend a flavor of the dance & showcase -- hopefully -- the unique talents of the pair.

Dave Bailey

08-03-2007, 11:57 AM

am thinking that for the purposes of the show, every sort of dance style used is going to be loosely interpreted. i could be wrong, from what i've seen so far, the choreography isn't intended for the purist, but to lend a flavor of the dance & showcase -- hopefully -- the unique talents of the pair.
Yeah, but it doesn't really (give a flavour), does it? It's freestyle dancing, with some minor AT elements, done to a neotango track.

Whilst I'm not going OT on the criticism, as I'm of the opinion that anything done to raise the profile of AT is a Good Thing - but there's "loose interpretation", and there's "nothing at all like AT", and I think this clip falls into the latter category.

Whilst I'm painfully aware that I got a lot of stick for enthusing some time back (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=370525#post370525) about a AT performance on "Strictly Come Dancing", and I don't want to revisit that discussion - at the very least, that performance was AT. This one wasn't.

Not saying it wasn't fun to watch, or that they're not talented dancers, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of AT in that performance to me. Less than half, certainly.

Laura

08-03-2007, 01:20 PM

Well, considering that I've recently seen a rumba on this show where the gentleman had zero rumba action and not even any discernible rumba walks, being authentic in any style seems like too much to ask for. After all, these people get like three days to learn their routines. Alex da Silva choreographed the "Whatever Lola Wants" piece, what do people think of him in general in AT circles? I thought he was more of a salsa guy.

As for the costume etc, I thought it was all very "James Bond" -- dashing guy in a suit, woman all tarted-up with a dagger in her boots -- I thought of Ursula Andress in "Dr. No."

Steve Pastor

08-03-2007, 01:34 PM

So, the dancers get blasted for not dancing enough rumba.
Meanwhile. Nigel comments that the only reason "Argentinian Tango" dancers don't do pirouettes is that the probably can't.
Hey, Nigel, is it true that the only reason ballet dancers don't spin on their heads is that they can't?
At least Mary Murphy knows what a gancho is. But she doesn't seem to know that they should at least look like they are being led.
So, once again, the judges reveal their almost complete lack of knowledge about Argentine Tango.
Meanwhile, over in the the more general thread, people thought the dance was hot, and sexy.
Dave, you are becoming knowledgeable, not snobbish. You should not feel obligated to apologize for having educated yourself about something. If you have done your homework, you are entitled to an opinion.
Here's another opinion. From the perspective of it supposedly being Argentine Tango, the dance was very, very bad.

bordertangoman

08-03-2007, 02:20 PM

yawn

Ampster

08-03-2007, 02:34 PM

Ampster's take:

For what it's worth, Danny and Sara danced very well. They were entertaining. They were smooth. Their dancing was enjoyable. The dancers should be commended for doing a good performance out of their own elements. The choreographer gave them a routine they could handle well.

Regarding their "Argentine Tango" routine: What they were doing was some sort of dance with Argentine Tango signature movements inserted in. It was NOT an Argentine Tango . The technical aspects and techniques were wrong and/or missing, connection was not there, again (my pet peeve) it did not even look like the lead was leading. It was a memorized number, and it shows. Just looking suave & sexy with lots of posing does not do it.

It is a conglomeration of what non-AT choreographers "THINK" AT is. Sad, sad, sad. The judges also expressed their ignorance of AT very well. Sadder, sadder, sadder. :nope: :doh:

jennyisdancing

08-03-2007, 02:45 PM

Dave Bailey

08-03-2007, 04:26 PM

Ampster's take:
{ everything he said }
Exactly :cheers:

Dave Bailey

08-03-2007, 04:30 PM

Alex da Silva choreographed the "Whatever Lola Wants" piece, what do people think of him in general in AT circles? I thought he was more of a salsa guy.
I've not heard of him, but assuming he's this guy (http://www.alexdasilva.com/alexhome.html), then, err, he's a salsa teacher isn't he? :confused::confused:

Salsa teacher. Choreographing an AT routine. Hmmm...

This (http://realitytv.about.com/od/soyouthinkyoucandance/ss/Choreographers.htm)says he knows some AT, but I don't believe he's an AT teacher?

Laura

08-03-2007, 04:41 PM

Alex is certainly not the 'name' in the AT world that he is in the LA Salsa world. Maybe next year they can get a real AT choreographer. Remember in season one they had Alex choreograph cha cha (and it was pretty awful). Then this year they got former US Latin champions to choreograph most of the Latin dancesport dances. So perhaps next time around...it seems that AT is the only style where they don't have an acknowledged expert working with the couples.

Steve Pastor

08-03-2007, 06:40 PM

I think there is general agreement that AT is one of the, if not the, most difficult partner dances. Then there is the whole foreign culture thing. Argentina is way different than the latin countries we are more familiar with. As I sometimes write (jokingly), it's like they have their own culture and everything.
We've had the nationally televised ballroom championship shows on PBS here in the US, but there is no similar event for AT, which is not known for its competitive nature. There have been several mainstream films about ballroom dancing, hip hop, jazz dance in "Chicago", etc, but the films featuring Argentine Tango have played to very small audiences.
Although shows such as "Forever Tango" create a stir, it's barely a ripple in the big pond of popular culture.
There is also no national organization of AT teachers, who are well known for not sharing standard lesson plans. Heck, they differ widely in the style of AT they teach, and how they teach it.
AT just isn't widely practiced or even known, except for the HOT and SEXY stuff people like ADS serves up. And you know, with the judges not bothering to educate themselves about the dance, and thus not being able to offer valid criticism, the audience learns nothing, except that this must be Argentine Tango.
Well, I can tell you, that if anyone is inspired to take lessons, they are in for a surprise. Unless they get a show dancer as an instructor, and never go to many milongas.

Ampster

08-04-2007, 04:10 PM

Excellent post. Why is tango so misunderstood, anyway?

I think AT is so misunderstood due to a combination of lack of exposure/ignorance, envy, and the culture of immediate gratification.

1) Lack of exposure /ignorance: As Steve Pastor so eloquently pointed out, there is very little exposure to the greater public. There is simply a very small smattering of tango in the media, and most of it just captures the superficial images of Tango selected to show off the poses for highest impact. If you tried to capture all the deep nuances of Tango, it would not hold interest of the greater public. Remember that the entertainment culture caters to short attentions spans. Tango, by its very nature is a long term commitment to study, elegance and the pursuit of beauty of connection and perfection.

2) Envy: Argentine Tango, when executed as it should, is so beautiful regardless of style (e.g. Salon, milonguero, apillado, nuevo, etc.). People want to look this good. Observers want to look this good. So, it attracts attention, favorably and otherwise. It is a highly sought after commodity. Then, outsiders who are accomplished dancers in their owns style try to do it, and find it challenging. Combine this with the above previously stated factors, lead to ASSumptions about the dance that are just downright wrong (e.g. The comments by the judges on SYTYCD; The choreography thst is shown here)

3) Culture of immediate gratification: I think this one is a BIG factor that leads to misunderstanding. As previously stated by Steve P, AT is one of the, if not THE most complicated partner dances. It takes A LONG TIME to be good at tango. I have lost count of the number of people who came from (and are and very proficient in) other dance forms, dabble in AT, then after a few months dissappear from the milongas and retreat to their previous forms in frustration. Not one of them will admit that they couldn't hack it, so to save face... Just because they were proficient in their other forms doesn't mean you can pick tango up just as easily. Proficiency and elegance in Tango is earned. There are no shortcuts to it, and there are a lot of pitfalls along the way. Tango takes an investment in time, and effort. You really must want to do this.

In our culture of instant gratification, this commitment hardly bodes well. The misunderstanding is generated and then by frustration and by (1) & (2)...

Angel HI

08-05-2007, 05:43 AM

AND ARGENTINA, ONCE AGAIN, HANGS HER HEAD AT THE AMERICANS

Ampster's post #15 is perfect. Steve's post #20 misses on s few points.
1. There have been several mainstream films about ballroom dancing, hip hop, jazz dance in "Chicago", etc, but the films featuring Argentine Tango have played to very small audiences.

Played to small, specific audiences but do exist. SYTYCD owes its broadcasters, producers, dancers, and most importantly, audience to know what a dance is or not announce it as such.

2. There is also no national organization of AT teachers, .... Heck, they differ widely in the style of AT they teach, and how they teach it.

There are several. If one doesn't like or respect the ones in the U.S., there are a few in BsAs. SYTYCD is not a local cable show, it's a major network series. Shame on them and the network for not consulting someone of authority.

3. AT just isn't widely practiced or even known, except for the HOT and SEXY stuff people like ADS serves up.

True, but...

4. ...with the judges not bothering to educate themselves about the dance, and thus not being able to offer valid criticism, the audience learns nothing, except that this must be Argentine Tango.

And this is the travesty that Me began the thread about in the first place. The dance was fine. IT WAS NOT TANGO...ARGENTINE OR OTHERWISE. SYTYCD and the network owe it to the viewers to find qualified teachers/choreographers for the respective dances. They do it for the other dances; why not AT?

I have an idea for the network and SYTYCD producers.... How about a show called "So You Think You Know Something About Television?"

Steve Pastor

08-05-2007, 03:00 PM

"2. There is also no national organization of AT teachers, .... Heck, they differ widely in the style of AT they teach, and how they teach it.

There are several. "

And they are......

08-07-2007, 11:47 AM

Oh for those who missed it - Sara got bumped off the show.

I think Danny had an automatic pass for this routine – he is a favored contestant and, after all, the choreographer gave the floor to him several times to show off his own talents that were completely unrelated to Argentine Tango.

Twice in this routine Sara had to sit there and busy herself with her fan while Danny was given the limelight. Having him spin to open the piece was annoying but forgivable considering the venue and audience, but to do it again mid-piece while she sat on the floor was not. Then he has that flip in the end while she sort of strolled away twirling the ever-so stereotypical rose ‘twixt her fingers. Again, this was not her fault.

Fans, roses, storm trooper boots and whatever other bits of dazzle (pirouettes, flips) you can conjure will not make a good Argentine Tango piece. I re-watched this piece. In one minute and forty seconds, they danced in an embrace for a total of eight seconds.

Here’s an idea – let’s bring somebody on the show who knows what they’re doing!

Angel HI

08-09-2007, 03:39 AM

"2. There is also no national organization of AT teachers, .... Heck, they differ widely in the style of AT they teach, and how they teach it.

There are several. "

And they are......

Sorry, Steve, I've been away....
1. Asociación Argentina de Maestros y Bailarines de Tango Salón,
2. Argentine Tango teachers, dancers and coreographers association
3. and I had to be approved by the BsAs Council of Cultural Affaires to be an adjudicator at an AT event.

Perhaps, organization and manner are different than we are accustomed to, but they do exist.

08-09-2007, 08:28 AM

bordertangoman

08-09-2007, 10:17 AM

Oh for those who missed it - Sara got bumped off the show.

Twice in this routine Sara had to sit there and busy herself with her fan while Danny was given the limelight. Having him spin to open the piece was annoying but forgivable considering the venue and audience, but to do it again mid-piece while she sat on the floor was not. Then he has that flip in the end while she sort of strolled away twirling the ever-so stereotypical rose ‘twixt her fingers. Again, this was not her fault.

I thought this was the funniest bit, though I suspect it wasn't meant to be...

Here’s an idea – let’s bring somebody on the show who knows what they’re doing!
I heartily agree!

kieronneedscake

08-09-2007, 04:19 PM

I've been asked a number of times whether I "do competitions", when I foolhardily admit to dancing AT as a hobby. The UK public view of dancing is almost entirely fixated on ballroom, and its obsession with competitions, and prancing around with a number stapled to your jacket.

They hear the word tango, and don't imagine a social activity like salsa tends to be.

Angel HI

08-10-2007, 03:29 AM

Just to give you all some perspective, yes, Alex de Silva is well known in the salsa world, and even there, he's got a large amount of detractors - a large amount of salser@s don't like his salsa choreography on the show either.

Alex is only partially to blame. Remember when the producers apologized on national television for the "Peace" dance? If enough of us write in and complain, they will apologize (if not verbally...even by action) for their lack of getting properly trained instructors/choreographers, and do something about it.

As I said in an earlier post, SYTYCD has an obligation to its dancers to help them to be their best, but it also has an obligation to its viewers to educate as well as entertain. Mary Murphy, whom I know as a very well trained dancer/coach knows this very well. I am surprised that she is allowing some of the trash that goes on air.

Steve Pastor

08-10-2007, 01:27 PM

Did you hear Mary prattle on about the such and such and such and such the was used during the waltz the other night? Nigel either palyed dumb, or really had no idea what she was talking about. Danny smiled. The choreagrapher smiled. Yes, that's what it was, they seemed to be thinking.
Ballroom technobabble.
But Mary has the vocabulary to talk about ballroom. But, as we seem to agree, not about Argentine Tango (although, again, she knows what a gancho is).
Anyone have an email address we can write to to voice our concerns?
Does anyone have someone, or several names of people who can take on the job of working with these obviously talented young dancers to create real AT choreaography for a national audience?

Ampster

08-10-2007, 04:32 PM

Does anyone have someone, or several names of people who can take on the job of working with these obviously talented young dancers to create real AT choreaography for a national audience?

Looking for the email...

Hugo Patyn & Miriam Larici... Former headliners of Forever Tango (Miriam is actually on the label of the album and on the Broadway posters). They're in LA.

Peaches

08-10-2007, 04:34 PM

Hiya, Ampster!

I like this idea of contacting peeps to let them know about coaches/choreographers who know AT from a hole in the ground.

delamusica

08-10-2007, 04:41 PM

Maybe they actually asked some people who are in the know, but they said no?

I have a hard time imagining that they didn't even ask . ..

Peaches

08-10-2007, 04:52 PM

I don't.

How could they know who to ask if, since they evidently don't even know what it is they're supposed to be asking about?

:end snarky-ness:

Ampster

08-10-2007, 06:49 PM

Hiya, Ampster!

:banana: Hi! Long time no seeee...

Peaches

08-10-2007, 08:05 PM

Nice boots... :raisebro:Having finally watched it...nice everything...

Well, except the dancing. Which wouldn't have been bad had they called it freestyle.

Angel HI

08-11-2007, 01:46 AM

Re Steve's post #30, the contact info for these shows are heavily guarded; one can imagine why. When a Dancing With the Stars judge made an asinine comment about an AT 2 seasons ago, they received so many e-s that they removed the link.

However we may write to: FOX Broadcasting Co., P.O. Box 900, Beverly Hills, CA 90213. Give me a few days (have a performance and coaching this w/e), and I'll have the producers' contact info. Also, I know Mary personally, and can get to her. Of course, her concern might be a conflict of interest, but it's worth a shout-out anyway.

Re who to refer, there are so many qualified persons (having a long time television and tango history, I could do it). Yet, there are several qualified persons right there in LA...Sandor, for one.

Angel HI

08-11-2007, 01:51 AM

Maybe they actually asked some people who are in the know, but they said no?

I have a hard time imagining that they didn't even ask . ..

Trust me, they did not. I work in that industry lots, and the research for things like this, especially in reality series, is very bad. The other thing is that many dancers still do not consider ballroom, thus tango, "real" dance, and do not give it the respect (like research for proper choreographers) that they would give jazz, tap, ballet, etc. It's up to persons such as ourselves to change that.

delamusica

08-11-2007, 12:29 PM

Trust me, they did not. I work in that industry lots, and the research for things like this, especially in reality series, is very bad. The other thing is that many dancers still do not consider ballroom, thus tango, "real" dance, and do not give it the respect (like research for proper choreographers) that they would give jazz, tap, ballet, etc. It's up to persons such as ourselves to change that.

Well, it seems to me that on the show at least Nigel and Mary do consider ballroom to be "real" dance. (At least they've gotten well-known choreographers and have a reasonable level of experience with it.) Apparently not so for AT, though.

But I do believe what you're saying about poor research. It's a little disappointing, though.

I mean, taking 2 seconds for a google search on "tango argentino and LA" points to Vladimir Estrin, Sandor & Parissa, Linda Valentino, Yolanda Rossi & Michael Espinoza, and Jorge Juis, among many other teachers who specialize in teaching AT in the LA area. I don't know who any of them are, but they all seem focused on just AT, and so would probably be better than what they've got now.

Angel HI

08-13-2007, 04:21 AM

Well, it seems to me that on the show at least Nigel and Mary do consider ballroom to be "real" dance. (At least they've gotten well-known choreographers and have a reasonable level of experience with it.) Apparently not so for AT, though.

I also said that I know Mary, and she is more than a qualified ballroom dancer, adjudicator, and authoritarian. But, you are correct; BR dancers, no matter how well versed in BR, are often not as well versed in AT which is still findign its place in U.S. mainstream dancing.

I don't know who any of them are, but they all seem focused on just AT, and so would probably be better than what they've got now.

I know several of them, and you are correct; a 2 second tel call, or a 2 second web search could resolve the problem. They're already in LA for God's sake.

Dave Bailey

08-13-2007, 06:11 AM

I like this idea of contacting peeps to let them know about coaches/choreographers who know AT from a hole in the ground.
I doubt the producers are lacking in finding coaches - I suspect, from what people have said, that they just don't care. If it's good TV, then it does the job, whether or not it's anything to do with actual AT dancing.

Angel HI

08-13-2007, 04:10 PM

I doubt the producers are lacking in finding coaches - I suspect, from what people have said, that they just don't care. If it's good TV, then it does the job, whether or not it's anything to do with actual AT dancing.

Precisely!!

Dave Bailey

08-16-2007, 05:28 AM

08-18-2007, 11:11 AM

The video of Alex Da Silva doing salsa is quite interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KMjeqS4A9Y

Shows you where his AT choreography comes from - he's consistent at least. To be honest, I don't like his salsa either (so I'm consistent too! :))

Wow I had no idea Salsa was a series of legmounts linked by awkward transitions. I'm going to tell my teachers right now that I want my money back.

Dave Bailey

08-20-2007, 05:34 AM

Wow I had no idea Salsa was a series of legmounts linked by awkward transitions. I'm going to tell my teachers right now that I want my money back.
I know, me too :)

A quote on another forum was:
"Alex has somewhat of a reputation for not letting the dance style, music, or timing get in the way of the tricks and acrobatics.."

Which seems appropriate... :rolleyes:

barrefly

08-23-2007, 02:12 PM

If this is a dup...I am sorry. It looks like my replies are not getting posted because I am either new, or I embedded a link.

I just want to say,...Alex was a AT dancer before he was a salsa dancer. He is also a world class instructor. I try to get the best for my daughter and Alex is no doubt one of the best. He is currently choreo'ing an AT routine for her and her group and it is pure AT. Not what you see on SYTYCD. I am sure Alex had his reasons for his pseudo AT routine. Remember the Paso Doble Heidi and Benji did last year and was such a hit? Certainly far from B.R. Paso Doble, but the audience loved it.
Something to think about.

P.S....I loved the clip of Ruby and Alex. Thanks for posting it. I just want to add, he took from his AT for his salsa and not the other way around.

Dave Bailey

08-24-2007, 05:20 AM

If this is a dup...I am sorry. It looks like my replies are not getting posted because I am either new, or I embedded a link.
Yeah, that happened to me too - it's a bit confusing!

I just want to say,...Alex was a AT dancer before he was a salsa dancer. He is also a world class instructor.
I'm sure he is. As I've said - and I'll repeat - the dance looked good, it was great entertainment, well-choreographed and well-performed. It - presumably - did what it was meant too.

But it had almost nothing to do with AT, for the reasons I and others have stated. So calling it Argentine Tango is clearly wrong.

I try to get the best for my daughter and Alex is no doubt one of the best. He is currently choreo'ing an AT routine for her and her group and it is pure AT. Not what you see on SYTYCD.
Which begs the question, why wasn't it AT? Tango Fantasia is designed for performances, for goodness' sake, why not use it? :rolleyes:

I am sure Alex had his reasons for his pseudo AT routine.
Maybe - for example, he had to work with the style of dancer and dances, or he had too little time to achieve anything new. But that's no reason not to criticize it - it was still a bad representation.

barrefly

08-24-2007, 06:58 PM

Dave, Personally, I am not a big fan of any of the choreo on SYTYCD. Wade's Michael Jacksonest choreo leaves me dry. (Wade was a big fan of M.J.). I just wanted to defend Alex in that many of his routines are liked by the viewers. I assume that is what the show if paying him for.....to entertain the viewing audience with his choreo, as difficult as that may be. It remains to be seen if those AT experts that was mention in this thread (to replace Alex) would do any better of a job.

Samina said it best:
"am thinking that for the purposes of the show, every sort of dance style used is going to be loosely interpreted. i could be wrong, from what i've seen so far, the choreography isn't intended for the purist, but to lend a flavor of the dance & showcase -- hopefully -- the unique talents of the pair."

SDsalsaguy

08-24-2007, 07:34 PM

If this is a dup...I am sorry. It looks like my replies are not getting posted because I am either new, or I embedded a link.
barrefly, one of the spam prevention measures here at DF is that psts containing links from new members (based on post count) go into "moderated" status awaiting moderator review. This only happens at the outset, and while understandably frustrating, has made a tremendous difference regarding the amount of inappropriate materials getting through to the public boards. Sorry for the inconvenience and any confusion, and I hope you understand why we take this precaution.

newbie

08-25-2007, 12:08 PM

An A.T. show by people who seem to be salsa teachers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vRgc7PtA90&mode=related&search=

tangotime

08-25-2007, 12:49 PM

Am curious-- why do you think they are salsa teachers ?

I would say from certain aspects, they look more International Latin style trained .

Nonetheless, a nice interperative " show " type performance . ( Gotan project ? )

jfm

08-25-2007, 03:29 PM

dear god.

Ampster

08-25-2007, 11:53 PM

dear god.

I concur.

Ewww :roll:

Angel HI

08-26-2007, 09:27 AM

Samina said it best:
"am thinking that for the purposes of the show, every sort of dance style used is going to be loosely interpreted. i could be wrong, from what i've seen so far, the choreography isn't intended for the purist, but to lend a flavor of the dance & showcase -- hopefully -- the unique talents of the pair."

I have been in professional theatre and television most of my life. There is a way to blend the technical and the purely entertainment elements. SYTYCD has missed the mark...lots.

tangotime

08-26-2007, 12:56 PM

barrefly

08-27-2007, 12:02 AM

Newbie,....I don't get the significance of your link.
Angel Hi,....in logic...there is a fallacy called the "fallacy of authority"....I doubt that you are the authority on reality shows that Alex is. Next post, ...how about a little proof, and I don't mean you telling us about your awards or how long you have been dancing, but rather how many reality shows have you choreo'ed and how sucessful you were at doing them and why you think Fox's rating's would benefit by replacing Alex.
You have no idea how many ex-pros my daughter has trained with (in many dance forms). Resumes do not impress me. Only you (yourself) can impress me.
jfm,...."dear god" ....what is that supposed to mean?

I think that the intent of this post is ADS should not be choroe'ing AT.
This, I may agree upon, ...on the condition that you all understand how difficult it is to choreo a quality AT routine that would impress the viewers without deviating from pure AT standards. Me thinks that it will go over about as well as the Vienese Watz routines....(yawn) of SYTYCD's past. I sincerely believe Alex can choreo a world class comp. level AT routine if he chose to...why he did not (in the routine in question) is pure speculation.

I do hope I am wrong, but I just do not think it has "selling" power without the "stars" performing it.

"No one went broke underestimating public taste' -Henry Lewis Mencken-

Angel HI

08-27-2007, 03:02 AM

Angel Hi,....I doubt that you are the authority on reality shows that Alex is. Next post, ...how about a little proof, ...how many reality shows have you choreo'ed and how sucessful you were at doing them

Don't take this so personally, barrefly. Re my credits, I haven't done any reality series. I have danced in, directed, and choreographed for many shows in Deauville, Broadway, and television, including the very successful 10 month run of The Soul of Argentina: A Tribute to Tango. This doesn't make me better than anyone. I do not sit in judgement as the authority on anything in particular...where this conversation is concerned. I do know however, how difficult that business is.

and why you think Fox's rating's would benefit by replacing Alex.

No one has ever said this. It has just been mentioned by several persons that ADS has not done such a great job with salsa, and an even less impressive job with AT. Opinions? Definitely. A dislike for Alex? Perhaps. A conspiracy to get him replaced or a degradation to him personally? I don't believe so.

You have no idea how many ex-pros my daughter has trained with (in many dance forms). .

Don't understand the point, here.....

I sincerely believe Alex can choreo a world class comp. level AT routine if he chose to...why he did not (in the routine in question) is pure speculation.

And this is all that everyone else is saying also.

newbie

08-27-2007, 04:06 AM

Am curious-- why do you think they are salsa teachers ?

No rocket science. On the same youtube page there is another video labelled "Stage Avanzato Portoricana - Jonatha e Raika"

newbie

08-27-2007, 04:10 AM

Newbie,....I don't get the significance of your link.

To show that SYTYCD is not the only place with A.T shows by not-A.T people.

tangotime

08-27-2007, 04:59 AM

So because they are from PR --they are salsa teachers / dancers .?

From the technique that the lady displays , and the mans posture( youre not a teacher, so how would you know ? )seem to have many of the attributes of the genre. Whether or no, they do T/ A or Salsa, or anything else , that, to the trained eye, looks suspiciously like my original statement .

And what are T/A people ?-- people from Argentina -- or exponents of the dance ?--

I personally teach and dance 3 style of Tango ,and in addition , all the B/ Room genre . Some people have difficulty in disguising the genre they are dancing, if not their " trained " speciality .

jfm

08-27-2007, 09:43 AM

jfm,...."dear god" ....what is that supposed to mean?

Because the tango in that clip was utterly dreadful. Maybe they were rank beginners doing an exhibition throwing in some show moves to make it exciting but it was not an example of tango that would make me want to learn. I didn't think much of the sytycd one either. It wasn't tango it was "show dance" it looked like something Arlene Phillips would come up with on top of the pops if gotan couldn't provide a video. Which is fine if you say: this is a show dance inspired by argentine tango. I don't want my mates to think i go out of a friday night dressed in F Me boots and a bra doing acrobatics and poses. They already think that tango is lame.

tangotime

08-27-2007, 09:49 AM

.

I didn't think much of the sytycd one either. It wasn't tango it was "show dance" it looked like something Arlene Phillips would come up with on top of the pops if gotan couldn't provide a video.

Which is fine if you say: this is a show dance inspired by argentine tango. I don't want my mates to think i go out of a friday night dressed in F Me boots and a bra doing acrobatics and poses. They already think that tango is lame.

First paragraph --A.P. is to Partnership dances, what Orson Welles was to Pole vaulting !!

Point well made !!

Dave Bailey

08-27-2007, 04:18 PM

I think that the intent of this post is ADS should not be choroe'ing AT.
Which post? The intent of my posts should be clear, I can't speak for the intent of this thread. If it has one :)

This, I may agree upon, ...on the condition that you all understand how difficult it is to choreo a quality AT routine that would impress the viewers without deviating from pure AT standards.

Really? Isn't that "wow factor" the entire raison d'etre for the Show Tango style?

And I'm sorry, but as I said right at the start of this thread (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=451063&postcount=3), that's not "Tango with some minor deviations from pure style" (whatever that is) - that dance just is not Tango, it's free dance with a few AT moves thrown in occasionally.

I sincerely believe Alex can choreo a world class comp. level AT routine if he chose to...why he did not (in the routine in question) is pure speculation.
Well, sure - there may well have been valid reasons for the choice. Doesn't mean it's right to call it AT.

Dave Bailey

08-27-2007, 04:27 PM

So because they are from PR --they are salsa teachers / dancers .?
Assuming the couple is Jonatha Casarin & Raika Crepaldi (seems a safe bet), then they come from Italy, and it looks like they are indeed primarily salsa people (from looking at http://www.jonathaeraika.com/ )

It also looks like they also do AT, of course, but their primary focus does seem to be salsa teaching and shows.

Angel HI

08-28-2007, 02:44 AM

barrefly

Still interested in your response to this.... http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=459359&postcount=57

08-30-2007, 06:25 PM

Hi barrefly and welcome to the DF. :)

I was the person who started this particular thread, so I wanted to explain myself.

This dance is, very simply, not, Argentine tango. I do not know what Alex's intent was, but the end product was a 'sexy' theatre arts piece, with some tango tricks thrown in, and it was called Argentine Tango. It smacks of virtually every stereotype that Argentines either laugh at or find offensive. (Yes, this routine came complete with fan and rose... and underwear... and storm trooper boots...) The end result was a train wreck that gave Danny ample opportunity to show-out and gave Sara the boot. I am sorry if you disagree with my opinion of this piece, as you seem to know Alex on a personal level, but I am a dancer who does not know Alex, and as a member of a viewing audience it is my role to view something and to form an opinion. Based on what I saw that night, I believe Alex failed to provide a stimulating Argentine Tango piece (something that is very possible to do) and also that he failed to provide his dancers something that would keep them both on the show. This causes me to question why he is on the show representing AT.

I think that the intent of this post is ADS should not be choroe'ing AT.
This, I may agree upon, ...on the condition that you all understand how difficult it is to choreo a quality AT routine that would impress the viewers without deviating from pure AT standards.

To agree with your statement would be to say that if Alex cannot do this, then such a task is virtually impossible for others. I disagree completely. Many qualified people around the world are capable of choreographing stage tango, or fantasia. This would be perfectly appropriate for television.

Me thinks that it will go over about as well as the Vienese Watz routines....(yawn) of SYTYCD's past. I sincerely believe Alex can choreo a world class comp. level AT routine if he chose to...why he did not (in the routine in question) is pure speculation.

I do hope I am wrong, but I just do not think it has "selling" power without the "stars" performing it.

Again, I believe to blame the dance and not the choreographer is the wrong approach.

Anyway, I do hope you return to post more about this, and about other things related to dance.

barrefly

08-30-2007, 07:51 PM

5th try to post....I hope I did not get kicked off.

and for the 5th time....Angel Hi, I am not sure what you wanted me to respond to.

In my last "attempt" to post, I linked a utube clip of show tango...(1st clip to pop up).
The clip demonstrated how much the 2 routines (Alex's) had in common, including the boots. I viewed many others clips and did not think they where many that were much better.
I am thinking that as experts...you all have a strong subjective opinion about the routine. I, as a novice,..liked the routine...(score 7 of 10) and I think I am in the norm for the viewing audience. This routine was not the only routine that gave way to Danny's "toure de force" turns. (just about all the routines he's done, has).
SYTYCD is not a real dance competition and not worth getting bent out about regarding a choreographer. Therefore, I will leave you all with your opinions.
(I just hate to see Alex talked about in such a way...I'll get over it).

I hope you all welcome me to the AT forum, and not take my SYTYCD ramblings too seriously. I have a lot of questions related to my daughter's dance and hope that some here will be kind enough to offer their advice.
We are from So. Cal....so references regarding intructors/schools (AT) are very much welcomed.
P.M.s also welcomed.
C.

Angel HI

08-31-2007, 02:28 AM

Angel Hi, I am not sure what you wanted me to respond to.

No matter.

I am thinking that as experts...you all have a strong subjective opinion about the routine. I, as a novice,..liked the routine...(score 7 of 10) and I think I am in the norm for the viewing audience.

The question/objection was never whether the routine was likable or not...a matter of opinion, as you said. The point of the OP was/is that it should not have been called AT. The general public doesn't really know what AT is, and might have left the show thinking it is that travesty. Simply Come Dancing, the British parent show of DWTS consistently shows great AT. The OP's point...why can't we on either DWTS or SYTYCD?

I hope you all welcome me to the AT forum, .... We are from So. Cal....so references regarding intructors/schools (AT) are very much welcomed.

Two of the best sources for tango in So. Cal. are:
http://www.tangoafficionado.com/index.htm and
www.planet-tango.com (http://www.planet-tango.com)

And, welcome to the DF...glad you're here.

Dave Bailey

09-03-2007, 04:12 AM

We had a "Eurovision dance contest" over here on Saturday. And yes, it was pretty horrible, but I looked up the dance definitions out of curiosity, and I saw this definition of AT (http://www.eurovision.tv/addons/dance/ballroom.php#11).

Argentine Tango
Argentine Tango consists of a variety of styles that developed in different regions of Argentina and Uruguay. The dance developed in response to many cultural elements, such as the crowding of the venue and even fashions in clothing.
Even though all those styles developed in South America, they were also exposed to influences re-imported from Europe and Northern America. Consequently there is a good deal of overlap between the styles as they are now danced. Argentine Tango is danced in an embrace that can vary from very open, in which leader and follower connect at arms length, to very closed, in which the connection is chest-to-chest, or anywhere in between. Close embrace is often associated with the more traditional styles, while open embrace leaves room for many of the decorations and figures that are associated with a newer style, the Tango Nuevo.Now, obviously, any definition can be quibbled about, but to me, this one is much clearer and better than the one at the start of the thread. If these guys can do it, why can't SYTYCD?

spectator

09-03-2007, 03:11 PM

because in general the BBC and the rest of Eurovision don't assume that their audiences are a bunch of thickos.

Dave Bailey

09-03-2007, 03:18 PM

because in general the BBC and the rest of Eurovision don't assume that their audiences are a bunch of thickos.
Well I dunno - Eurovision's about as dumb as you can get and still have a pulse.

spectator

09-03-2007, 04:42 PM

Eurovision is a kind of europe wide tv networks collaboration, their song contest and dance thing are a bit of kitsch fun-it's supposed to be daft, but they never patronise their audience.

Angel HI

09-04-2007, 04:39 AM

We had a "Eurovision dance contest" over here on Saturday. And yes, it was pretty horrible, but I looked up the dance definitions out of curiosity, and I saw this definition of AT (http://www.eurovision.tv/addons/dance/ballroom.php#11).

Now, obviously, any definition can be quibbled about, but to me, this one is much clearer and better than the one at the start of the thread. If these guys can do it, why can't SYTYCD?

The OP's point, and others', exactly.