Cha Cha Rhythm at Nightclubs

[DanceMentor]

When I watch people dance Cha Cha at clubs, they seem to dance:
1 2 cha cha cha (1 2 3&4) instead of 2 3 cha cha cha (2 3 4&1)

Any reason for this? Is it more correct to dance 1 2 cha cha cha when visiting a Latin club?

[SDsalsaguy]

I’d say the underlying roots of this phenomenon are twofold.

First, the two is actually not a “natural” beat to break on. All I mean by this is that, if you take a group of young children, without musical training, and ask them to clap on the two beat, they can’t – they’ll always clap on the one beat. Since many club dancers have little, if any, formal dance or music training, it makes sense to/for them to break on the one to the effect of 1, 2, cha, cha, cha. Aside from breaking on the 1 rather then the 2, this social/club version also tends to have all three “cha” steps evenly danced whereas a ballroom cha cha (and notice that it is usually referenced as such rather then as a cha cha cha) actually syncopates the two cha chas on the 4 and the &, with the 1 being a full beat for a very different overall rhythm then the club/street version.

Also, just as with the whole salsa/mambo thing, much contemporary music – as in what is being played in clubs vs. ballroom music – actually breaks on the one rather then the two. Add this to the aforementioned variables, and the fact that the majority of contemporary salsa dancers (numerically speaking everywhere but NY) break on 1 and I think you're well on the way to understanding the phenomenon.

Personally I’ve had everything from “I think you’re counting It wrong” (when dancing on 2) to “you know better then that” & then not taking a step until I switch to 2 (when dancing on 1).

[MissAlyssa]

It's more comfortable to dance cha cha to the first beat especially when you are dancing with someone that may not know why you should actually break on the 2.

[Vince A]

MissAlyssa ,

The music dictates what beat to dance the cha on! I don't think I could do it on the 1 . . .

I lead . . . I break, or dance the beat on 2! You follow, and if you don't like that, or cannot dance to that beat, let me know. We can leave the floor!

[DanceMentor]

Hi Vince,

It sounds like you have strong views about the 2!
I will add that when I observe Latin people dancing at Latin nightclubs here in Atlanta they always dance on the 1.

[Vince A]

I've been dancing since I was a kid, and did the "solo style" of cha cha back then. It broke on 1.

For the last three years, all of my Pros have been beating the "2" beat into me. It took a year for me to break the old 1 beat cha habit. I finally have it now, and won't even try going back.

I know that I took a second in a cha competition in San Diego . . . and afterwards got with the judges and asked them for their input. Three judges said "they saw me do a cross-body lead with 4 consecutive outside turns for the lady, and I came out on 1." So, they docked me points, which cost me the win. I didn't even know I had done it! I normally come out on 2, and thought that I had, but obviously didn't!

Everyone I know, and everyone that I lead through the cah, does it on the 2.

Guess I have to try some clubs to see how important this really is!

[DanceMentor]

I see your point now, Vince.
If you practice one way you may find yourself making mistakes at the most inopportune times.

It took me a long time to be able to switch back and forth between Mambo and "On1" Salsa, and then later it was an additional challenge to learn "on2" salsa. It's really hard to switch back and forth between different rhythms (and styles) without something suffering. I think your strategy is sound, Vince.

[pygmalion]

Oh my goodness! Not another on1/on2 controversy! :lol:

Actually, what I've seen is new dancers being allowed to dance "on1" and then gradually coaxed into "on2" with cha cha. New people seem to find it more natural to do on1. Maybe it's not knowing what to do with that first beat? Maybe it's lack of musical background?

But, if you listen to the music, you can hear where the "cha cha cha" comes in. From the music I've heard, that generally falls into the on2 category. So that's the way I dance it, and, now "on1" feels totally weird to me.

(Although, in a club, I dance what the guy leads. :lol: )

[MissAlyssa]

I don't know what kind of hallucinegens I was on when I posted above. I dance on2 lol. I just use a prep. I must have been tired or something. Dang insomniac..

[pygmalion]

Yeah, some of these threads get so darn technical, and if you respond quickly and at 3:00AM, when you go back and read, you think, "who in the world said that? Not me, surely!" I can relate.


I figured you use a prep step, since you're studio trained. Most people out in the real world, with no training, do the on1 version. Distracting to look at, once you're trained to do it "right."

[youngsta]

Hmmm, most people I know in the real world dance it on2. Personally I don't see how you can NOT dance it on2 just listening to the music.

[pygmalion]

Yes. It amazes me to see people dancing it any other way. Yuck!

[MissAlyssa]

It would probably give me a headache to look at someone dancing on1 because I'd be so busy processing the moves and the timing in my head. :shock:

[SDsalsaguy]

Ok, in all fairness, the 1 is not as nonsensical as we make it out to be...

I can't stand it anymore and do think it looks and feels atrocious...but I also remember my earlier days when I did all my club cha on 1. More to the point, however, if you try to get a young child to clap to music they will naturally find and end up on the 1 beat...even if you start them somewhere else.

[MissAlyssa]

cool, never knew that!

[pygmalion]

Yup. The 1 is pretty natural. This morning, when the system was down and I was nearly out of my mind from forum withdrawal, I pulled out some old cha cha stuff I remembered having.

#1 Sam Cooke (old R&B singer from the 50's) a song called Everybody Loves to Cha Cha Cha. Guess what I heard? Music on two, but good old Sam singing one,two cha cha cha. Talk about discord! But that's how people who don't know better count it. One-two-cha-cha-cha. Not two -three-four-and-one.

#2 Latin Dance/exercise video Guess what I saw in the cha cha section?
One two cha-cha-cha.

It's everywhere!

AAArrrgh!

[MissAlyssa]

Hmm, I haven't come across that anywhere yet. I learned 1,2,3,4&1 going right, forward, back side together side. :D

[pygmalion]

We're talking about the same thing. 1 is the first prep step. 2,3, 4 and 1 is the basic just like you described.

[MissAlyssa]

cool beans :D

[DanceMentor]

When I teach cha cha in my Salsaerobics class, I do 1-2 Cha Cha Cha. You guys are probably going to banish me from the forums, but it's just easier to do it that way.

I also find that most people in the clubs I frequent do the same thing. It kind of like the 'ballroom' dancers rock on 2-3 and the 'true' Latin dancers dance the 1-2. I know this sounds controverial, but it's my personal experience. There's almost an unwritten rule that says you shouldn't dance like a "ballroom" dancer at the club.

I dance the way I dance, but I sometimes feel this feeling. Am I the only one?

Right now, I usually get some water during the cha cha set. Help!?

[pygmalion]

Yes. The worst thing you can do at a nightclub is look ballroom-y. Believe me. I've done it. Never again. :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

I think there are good reasons for this too!

Clubs are crowded venues...so compact dancing is key. Ballroom styling, especially more competitive and styled versions are all about volume – exactly the *opposite* of what is appropriate for club venues.

I can't tell you how many ballroom dancers I've seen in my local salsa clubs start doing crossovers/NYers, flinging their arms out and nearly decapitating innocent salseros and salseras who's only capital offense was being within 10 feet!

[pygmalion]

And it's really amazing how clueless people can be. 8X12 dance floor with fifty people on it equals small steps. Plain and simple.

[DanceMentor]

OK, I agree with you if you define "ballroomy" as the flinging of the arms and the use of choreography that takes up the whole floor. Maybe my worries about dancing the 2-3 as being "ballroomy" are unfounded and I should go out there and dance.

[pygmalion]

Your wife is probably the only one who'll notice what beat you're breaking on. I'd just dance what I feel (for me, the "ballroom" version). Just keep your arms to yourself, and you'll be fine. :lol: :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

Well, there can also be notable differences in style. From my experiences though, if you're keeping your arms to yourself and not hogging floor space, then most people there may, at worst, think that ballroom cha cha looks too sterile but won't mind you in the least.

[pygmalion]

True. About the differences in style, I mean. When I hit the nightclub door, the vixen in me comes out, and ballroom goes out the window. So maybe I can't talk.

I do know that one guaranteed way to get stared at, or worse, yelled at, is to bump into other people and be perceived as hogging the floor. As long as you don't do that, just have fun, and you should be fine.

[HothouseSalsero]

I learned to dance cha cha cha on the two, and prefer doing it that way, but many people I have danced with (including some people I consider to be pretty good dancers) dance it on the one, and have difficulty following if I lead it on 2, so many times I will switch over to the one (which I don't have problems with, probably because I dance salsa on the 1). The footwork my teacher gave me for cha cha cha is still pretty challenging to me--just he basic itself, I mean. I don't think most people in clubs dance it that way, and I usually think of myself as a club (salsa) dancer rather than a ballroom dancer, but the thing is--I like the ballroom version (the one I learned anyway) better in this case. It has more rhythmic definition.

I used to think that the music dictated "on 2" but after reading lengthy discussions about this (by musicians with a fair amount of expertise in Latin music) in rec.music.afro-latin, I have decided that that varies from song to song.

In my experience, space is not usually an issue when cha cha chas come on in a club setting, since the dancefloor tends to thin out.

I went to a Latin dance party at the Kimmel Center here in Philadelphia, two summers ago. It was held in a huge open space. There was absolutely no scarcity of space. I was dancing a cha cha cha with someone (who I later ended up going out with) and I ended up leading her into a woman who was standing too close behind her (in the middle of nowhere, basically--not close to the stage, not close to the bar, etc.). I didn't see that she was there. We apologized, but we both couldn't figure out why she had to stand that close to use while we were doing a cha cha cha, when there was ample space all around. Presumably she wasn't familiar with the dance, or else she wouldn't have decided to park herself just a foot or two behind us (again, with so much space to choose from).

[HothouseSalsero]

To see the space I'm talking about, take the virtual tour here:

http://www.kimmelcenter.org/facilities/

(I'm feeling defensive about this now.)

[Sagitta]

It is true HHSalsero that the floor tends to thin out when cha cha comes on. So, for instance, at Commonground, th latin club that I go to, the issue of not being able to dance ballroom does not come up. I agree it is really aggravating when people just do whatever they want on the dance floor!! However, whether or not a person is cognizant or courteous enough to follow dancefloor ettiquete, I always try to be aware of the space around me and make sure that collisions are avoided.

It is really obvious when someone does not know club style cha-cha and is a ballroomer, as I noticed last Tuesday night. However, as long as you and your partner are having fun, and you are not getting in anyone else's way then whatever works. The issue for 1-2, 2-3 in cha cha is like salsa breaking on 1/2/3... Too big a deal is made of it. If what you do works for whom you are dancing with then that's all that matters IMHO. :)

[vey]

The issue for 1-2, 2-3 in cha cha is like salsa breaking on 1/2/3... Too big a deal is made of it. If what you do works for whom you are dancing with then that's all that matters IMHO. :)
I really like this statement Sagitta!!!
An instructor in my beginner's cha cha class told us that an authentic way is to dance on 2 ; if you're a follower, it's highly advisable to learn how to follow on both 1 and 2 but the most important thing is to have fun. :P (she was talking about social dancing)

I think "clapping children example" is great: I can break on 1 automatically, but in order to break on 2 (again, depending on a song) I have to make an effort: wait for a "cha-cha beat" or do a prep step.

[pygmalion]

Your instructor gave you great advice. As the follower, you have to be prepared to follow whatever is led, wherever the break is.

[looyenyeo]

I'm not sure if this topic is dead already, but here goes.

The foundation rhythmic pattern to the music of the chachacha (or C3 as I like to call it), as attributed to its creator Enrique Jorrin (in 1950) is as follows:

a. It has a two-bar phrase (defined by the son clave - an afrocuban master rhythm)

b. Congas voice the AfroCuban pattern called "tumbao moderno". Accents are on beats 2, 4, 4+ (i.e. the upbeat following beat 4), 6, 8, 8+

c. Chachacha bell pattern, striking on every beat: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

d. Additionally, in more recent C3s, the downbeat that chord changes tend to coincide with, is beat 1.

As a dangerous generalisation:
A western-based ear tends to tune in to the melodics i.e. the chord changes. The coincidence of the chord change on the downbeat with the bell pattern indicate (to them) that beat 1 is the beginning of the cycle.

African-based cultures tune in to the percussion, and would focus on the dry "slap" accents on beats 2, 6 as well as the round "open" accents on beats 4, 4+, 8, 8+ of the tumbao moderno.

Which beat you'd dance on, depends on where you come from. It's like asking: "Which is right? European or African?" and forgetting that the C3 has creole roots.

If I were really pushed to dance a "literal" interpretation of the C3 rhythm, I would step and break on 2. If I were asked to dance it communicatively /socially (e.g. with mom or my Aunt Peggy), I'd do so on 1.

Loo

[vey]

As a dangerous generalisation:
A western-based ear tends to tune in to the melodics i.e. the chord changes. The coincidence of the chord change on the downbeat with the bell pattern indicate (to them) that beat 1 is the beginning of the cycle.

African-based cultures tune in to the percussion, and would focus on the dry "slap" accents on beats 2, 6 as well as the round "open" accents on beats 4, 4+, 8, 8+ of the tumbao moderno. Loo

thank you looyenyeo :!:

Finally someone worded comprehendably something I've been suspecting for some time now ....

[pygmalion]

Thanks looyenyeo. It's great having you around! :D

[youngsta]

Good stuff looyenyeo! I don't think any of us here were saying one is better than the other, just which one we feel naturally. For me that's the 2...I instinctively react to percussion.

[Sagitta]

I rely on hearing the cha cha cha, resulting in beat 2 being the beginning of the cycle for me. Then the dance just falls into place. I had an opportunity for one cha cha tonight and that's how I got it. :)

[tsb]

Ok, in all fairness, the 1 is not as nonsensical as we make it out to be...

I can't stand it anymore and do think it looks and feels atrocious...but I also remember my earlier days when I did all my club cha on 1. More to the point, however, if you try to get a young child to clap to music they will naturally find and end up on the 1 beat...even if you start them somewhere else.

i think the main problem is that the focus is on the wrong step; as it's called a cha-cha-(cha), it's always made sense to me to listen for the cha-cha-cha in the music and place my two steps in between the cha-cha-chas. i suspect if you told that young child to clap on the beats in between the cha-cha-chas, the child would be clapping on '2' & '3' quite naturally - just like they do at the ball park when the organist plays the theme from the addams family.