Following: Good for just the leader?

[atk]

Question for all y'all out there who are followers. Sorry about being a little verbose.


There are times where, when a follower will tell me that a dance was absolutely fantastic. Some of these times, I'll have enjoyed the dance, and the music, but the follower will be heavy, very late, and in general difficult to lead.

Last night, at a party at my studio, my teacher led me in a waltz (bronze & silver stuff). Now, I'm a pretty terrible follower. She had to manhandle me a bit to get me to follow stuff, and there were plenty of times I misinterpreted things and did something other than what was actually led. In general, it must have been a very difficult dance for her. But, for me, it was great - it (well, she) felt amazingly smooth, and mostly comfortable (probably would have been amazingly comfortable if I weren't such a terrible follower).

So, I know that it can go this way - leaders doing a lot of work, and followers having a fantastic time. Have you ever had it go the other way - where the leader says that the dance was amazing, but, as the follower, while you didn't dislike it, it wasn't all that great?

I mean, I assume that this is possible, but I just don't know how it would work ('cuz, after all, I'm not a follower :) ). I mean, I've been taught that the follower can't really do much more than the leader can do, since she has to rely on her leader to provide a frame in which she can follow, so I'm failing to see how she can feel amazing to him when he doesn't provide a really good frame for her. Or can it feel amazing to him if he doesn't provide a really good frame?

Thanks,
atk

[Ithink]

Well, I would imagine that would a very frequent occurance when the follower is much more advanced than the leader or if the follower is backleading and is good at it:) The leader can often feel like he has to do no work and the follower is doing all the things he's seemingly leading. To the follower though the dance can feel boring or not well lead, which in turn causes her to do all the work. As a follower, I find that the dances that feel the best are those where both partners are closely matched in level and effort. Any imabalance in both can feel pretty bad to one partner and may feel very good to the other...

I think this is more true in less free-form dance styles, such as standard, where frame and connection is paramount. In styles like WCS, with which I am also very familiar, and where the follow has a LOT more freedom and the dance a lot less structure, the difference in levels is less noticeable and the dance can thus be more enjoyable to both parties even if they are unevenly matched... There are limits here too but, but they are less significant...

[WorksForShoes]

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants. One night, I felt like I was really working at a dance with him -- I couldn't just follow what he was leading my body to do, because that was often two or three different things, so I was also applying a level of running intellectual analysis (something like, "well, it feels like it could be any of these these three things, but if I were leading a figure out of the one we just danced, I'd pick....."). Afterwards, he told me what a great follower I was! :p

[atk]

So, in such cases, does the leader seem to have enjoyed the feeling of dancing with her? Not just recognizing that she's good, but the feel of the connection? I've danced with people who were far better than me, but with whom I didn't enjoy the feel of the connection.

[fascination]

seems to me that generally the poorer dancer is enjoying the dance more...but to answer your question, I think it is neccessary to differentiate between it being difficult and it feeling bad....ie...I have to work harder for it to feel good to pro, but it then consequently feels better between us...if that makes sense...I think it is very easy for someone who is not moving themself or not balanced to have no idea as long at the person they are with is compensating...and this is often the case because the better dancer will accomodate b/c they know how and it will get them through the dance...then a good pro, if they sense that the dancer really wants to be good, will end that party.....

[icequeen]

I've danced with some men who are very forceful leads. They might "make" the followers do the steps, but their lead is so rough that the follower does not enjoy it.

One man at my former studio is notorious for having caused shoulder injuries among multiple of his regular partners. Unfortunately, he still thinks that he is a good lead, even though the ladies who dance with him do not enjoy the dance (and have the injuries to prove it!).

[fascination]

in their defense some are just accustomed to having to...

[cornutt]

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants.

I observe that there is a certain type of dancer that you run into sometimes on the social scene. This type is just thrilled to be dancing at all, and beyond that they don't much care. Taking lessons or trying to improve is not in their plan. I see this in both leads and follows. There is a gentleman in town that my DW has told me about who gets out on the floor and then just tries to make steps up. He doesn't know nearly enough about choeography to get away with this, and so he often winds up having to lead really awkward things to link steps together. And, because he's always thinking about what he's going to do rather than what he's doing, his body does not communicate to his partner's at all. As near as I can tell, he enjoys the heck out of every dance he does. For his partner, not so much. :rolleyes:

As a lead, when I have this experience of not enjoying a dance that my partner has enjoyed, it's usually because I'm dancing with a beginner. Oftentimes they are so delighted just to discover that they can in fact move their feet in time to music that everything they've been taught about frame and connection goes out the window. But that was me not so long ago, so I grin and bear it. Other than that, I don't experience this phenomenon much anymore. Generally if I've enjoyed it, then my partner has too, and if she hasn't, I can usually tell even if she tries to cover it up.

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

[atk]

Fascination,

I think what you said makes sense, and I think it's tangential to my question, so maybe it will help to clarify what I'm trying to ask. I asked my amateur partner, last night, on the phone, and she said she'd think about it (it took a while to make my question clear to her, if I really succeeded). But I figure I'm more likely to get useful input from a larger range of people :) And I'll ask my teacher about it, tonight, if I can catch her between lessons.

...but to answer your question, I think it is neccessary to differentiate between it being difficult and it feeling bad....

I think that's moving along the lines of my question.

ie...I have to work harder for it to feel good to pro, but it then consequently feels better between us...

But, if you don't work hard, the pro can dislike the feel, while you can like the feel. As a follower. I mean, it must be the same for followers, but I can't see how...


I guess I should also say: I've never had a dance that I really liked how my partner felt, and the my partner really disliked how I felt (except, obviously, for last night). Even with really advanced dancers. If I like it, the follower always likes it (or I'm around some amazing actresses). If I dislike it, the follower may still like it, or she may dislike it.

[atk]

I have had it happen. I can think of one gentleman who is something of an indeterminate lead -- nicest guy in the world, but I often see women dancing with him with a question mark floating over their heads as they try to figure out what he wants. One night, I felt like I was really working at a dance with him -- I couldn't just follow what he was leading my body to do, because that was often two or three different things, so I was also applying a level of running intellectual analysis (something like, "well, it feels like it could be any of these these three things, but if I were leading a figure out of the one we just danced, I'd pick....."). Afterwards, he told me what a great follower I was! :p

So, here's the question that I asked my partner when she initially answered similarly: do you really think he enjoyed the feeling? Like approaching sex-on-the-dancefloor enjoyed it? Or do you think he enjoys something else about it?

There's a fellow at my studio who has the potential to do extremely well - I've even seen him do amazingly well, once. The rest of the time... well.. he just doesn't feel as good as he might (I've followed him in group lessons, and had conversations with several followers, where he's come up). My partner's first thought went to him, but I don't think he really enjoys how the connection feels, in the same way as I'm aiming at (again, the sex-on-the-dancefloor feeling).


To all responders: thanks for your posts. It really is helping me figure out what my question really is.

[atk]

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?


I'm obviously not an advanced follower, but I'll speak from my experience with some high-intermediate and advanced followers. Most seem to be happy to get a good lead, and don't care so much about patterns. There are one or two that I've run into who, if you don't have a large repertoire, will start to backlead.

[WorksForShoes]

A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

Absolutely, hands down, no question, I will take the guy with the limited repetoire and good lead. For one thing, a guy with a good lead and good musicality can make a few patterns flow together in such a wonderfully seamless way that it feels like multiple patterns. For another, I would want leads to know that I don't need to be entertained, especially; you don't need to show me all your best tricks, and I'm not keeping count of the number of times you repeat a pattern. Just take me out on the floor, lead a few patterns well, let us enjoy the music, and it will be fine.

[fascination]

two points A)I now know when i am doing stuff that is bad for pro regardless of how nice it is for me...I know most of the time when my body is now lined up such that it feels like I am pulling...b/c he has been willing to hound me on a variety of issues...yes, I can still like it while I am doing it wrong...and it can feel badly for him
B) I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable

[atk]

B) I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable



Fascination,

Thanks :) That's exactly the response I was looking to get :) So, how doe that work? Or is it just one of those things that you really have to experience, to understand?

[DanceMentor]

I think often as the dancing becomes more difficult, poeple sometimes forget to relax, breathe and enjoy. A tightness sets in, and the dancing becomes less enjoyable. As you get more advanced you have to make an effort to breathe, smile and relax, even though the dance steps are difficult.

[fascination]

Fascination,

Thanks :) That's exactly the response I was looking to get :) So, how doe that work? Or is it just one of those things that you really have to experience, to understand?
how does what work?

[fascination]

am not sure what you are asking but I think what you are getting at is what to I do to make it easier for the guy and why is he not aware of it?....

if that is your question alot of it has to do with knowing things like: he is going to under rotate so I had better over rotate...he isn't very accomplished at big steps so I had better have alot of foot pressure to drag out that draw...and then some of it boils down to knowing what his handful of steps are and backleading the daylights out of him

[jennyisdancing]

Originally Posted by fascination http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=451211#post451211)
B) I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable

Fascination,

Thanks :) That's exactly the response I was looking to get :) So, how doe that work? Or is it just one of those things that you really have to experience, to understand?

Atk - the follower was putting forth extra effort but in such a way as to make the leader think he was the one doing the great job. It made the dance go smoother and avoided the inappropriateness (and potentially bruised ego) of backleading or being openly critical of the leader.

[atk]

jennyisdancing & fascination,

I think the two of you managed to answer my question (I think I meant "how does that work" as, "how does the follower manage to work really hard, without the leader realizing it", but I definitely couldn't figure out the right way to ask the question).

It sounds exactly the same as I see it from leading, which makes sense. Following is just such a different perspective, and I can't see from there, yet :)

Thanks!


So, to continue with the line of questions: have you ever had a very good leader who liked the feeling, when you didn't? Or is it always a less advanced leader who is more likely to be the only one to enjoy the feeling?


From my experience, it's the less advanced follower who is more likely to be the only one to enjoy the feeling, so I'm curious if this will be consistent, too.

And I'm suddenly getting very self conscious about how people may be compensating for me...

[fascination]

don't be self conscious...we all have to make someone pay whil;e we are getting better...and bless those who are honest when we ask...curse those who offer when we didn't ask...ANYHOW, I don't think it has ever felt bad for me when pro has liked it...it has felt like more work...but usually the dynaminc between us is then so effortless that it is well worth it if that makes sense

[fascination]

bottom line, both suffer, even if they don't realize it, when one is not balanced and dancing oneself

[waltzgirl]

So, to continue with the line of questions: have you ever had a very good leader who liked the feeling, when you didn't? Or is it always a less advanced leader who is more likely to be the only one to enjoy the feeling?


From my experience, it's the less advanced follower who is more likely to be the only one to enjoy the feeling, so I'm curious if this will be consistent, too.

And I'm suddenly getting very self conscious about how people may be compensating for me...


I can think of one instance when that seemed to be the case. Toward the end of one evening, I was getting tired and it was affecting my balance. I'd been working on balance and being over my foot a lot in lessons, so I think I was hyper-aware of it. I felt like I was wobbling all over the place. I said something to the guy, a much more advanced dancer than I am, and he said he didn't know what I meant, that I was following beautifully. (It probably helped that we were doing a smooth waltz with a lot of open work.) So in that case, the dance seemed to feel better to him than to me (but not because of anything he was doing).

As far as being self-conscious, that dance also taught me that sometimes problems you are aware of may not be so evident to your partner. And don't think of it as compensating, like the followers are having these ideal dances with others and having to drastically alter things for you. Every partner requires adjusting to their level, strengths, weaknesses, and quirks.

[atk]

don't be self conscious...we all have to make someone pay whil;e we are getting better...and bless those who are honest when we ask...curse those who offer when we didn't ask...ANYHOW, I don't think it has ever felt bad for me when pro has liked it...it has felt like more work...but usually the dynaminc between us is then so effortless that it is well worth it if that makes sense

I think it makes sense. I always enjoy the feeling the most when I'm working the hardest.

[samina]

I am guessing that women are in fact less honest about when it feels bad...I have had many men think that "there is nothing we can't do together" or that a dance was dreamy...while I was working my butt off and other than their very fine company, wouldn't have deemed it nearly as pleasurable

yes... well-said. i suspect this also. have certainly been there.

[madmaximus]

. . .

I mean, I assume that this is possible, but I just don't know how it would work ('cuz, after all, I'm not a follower :) ). I mean, I've been taught that the follower can't really do much more than the leader can do, since she has to rely on her leader to provide a frame in which she can follow, so I'm failing to see how she can feel amazing to him when he doesn't provide a really good frame for her. Or can it feel amazing to him if he doesn't provide a really good frame?. . .

Thanks,
atk

The best leaders are the ones who can follow.
True in management. True in dancing.

Over the years, I've realized that the job of the "lead" is to follow (he initiates the beginning point while making clear what the end point will be, and then follows her through the movement--without getting in the way), while the job of the "follower" is to interpret the direction, pressure, swing, and intent of the lead's frame, execute the movement gracefully and generally be the gorgeous dancer she can be.

A simple example is an Impetus turn to promenade.
If the man simply allows the lady to move into promenade by herself, FOLLOWING her through HER movement instead of "putting" or "placing" her in place (ie lets the lady move by herself)--and be gorgeous to boot--the feeling can be amazing to both.

It is in this context that the lady can move into a position more freely, lightly, and beautifully.

OTOH, if the man LEADS the way into the movement and rigidly puts the lady into PP, then the movement will feel and look absurdly constricted.





m

[rhythm mouse]

Interesting - I just had this conversation. I was asked to dance by a beginner at a Salsa club. As we danced, he admitted he didn't have many patterns (probably 4-5 total), and was apologetic about it. I told him I enjoyed the steps he DID lead, because he led them clearly, with confidence and on time. I told him I would rather he danced what he knew well, than to try all these new moves that he couldn't lead. Then I got to thinking - how else is he going to learn anything more if he doesn't start trying new patterns? I want to encourage him. He has the potential for being very good, and seems interested in learning as much as he can. Granted, I silently prefer to dance with him maybe no more than 3 times in an evening, simply because I like the challenge of more intricate leads, but I probably would never turn him down, as he seems to be so honestly interested in my having a good dance and leading well.
I'm no pro, but over the last year, I've danced with some excellent leads and instructors, and have learned how to follow an increasing # of patterns/styles. I've also had an embarrassing experience with a poor lead who thought he was suave and made me feel like an idiot as I guessed what he wanted me to do in some really bizarre moves.

In another example, I've been asked to dance with a Latino gentleman who had the body motions of growing up with Salsa, yet he had a predictable and limited repertoire of patterns. Still, I always enjoy that dance with him (usually only asks me once per night) as he leads it well and the few moves he does are varied and work well with the music.

How does a more experienced follow help a beginning lead in a social setting? When I began, it took me more than a year to learn how NOT to backlead/anticipate, and I still fall into this every once in awhile.



A related question for you experienced follows out there. If a guy dances well, has a good lead, but just doesn't have much of a repetoire of steps, is that an enjoyable dance for you? Would you rather dance with someone who tries to lead a lot of things but has some difficulty with them, or with a lead who only does a few steps, but does them all well?

EDIT: Okay, I just realized I replied with a Salsa example in a Ballroom thread (I do both), but that's essentially the same for me. In a studio setting, I tend to encourage trying new leads and am more than happy to practice them. In a social setting, I'd prefer to stick mostly with what is led well, and perhaps try one or two new patterns during a song.

[samina]

The best leaders are the ones who can follow.
True in management. True in dancing.

Over the years, I've realized that the job of the "lead" is to follow (he initiates the beginning point while making clear what the end point will be, and then follows her through the movement--without getting in the way), while the job of the "follower" is to interpret the direction, pressure, swing, and intent of the lead's frame, execute the movement gracefully and generally be the gorgeous dancer she can be.

A simple example is an Impetus turn to promenade.
If the man simply allows the lady to move into promenade by herself, FOLLOWING her through HER movement instead of "putting" or "placing" her in place (ie lets the lady move by herself)--and be gorgeous to boot--the feeling can be amazing to both.

It is in this context that the lady can move into a position more freely, lightly, and beautifully.

OTOH, if the man LEADS the way into the movement and rigidly puts the lady into PP, then the movement will feel and look absurdly constricted.





m

beautiful. i can discern my instructors doing this... following me, or trying to teach me to invite them through my movement, which they listen & wait for & then respond to by following. their ability to tune in & be aware of & wait for the moment to respond really amazes me. in those moments, i'm so aware of just working on a couple instruments while they seem to be conducting an orchestra...

[LatinDancer006]

I'm glad we're talking about this subject because I was at a dance event this weekend and a lady that I danced with critized my lead, saying that I need to "mind her balance". Then she goes on to say that I have to put her exactly where I want her othwerwise she wouldn't know. So, I asked her to elaborate, but her friend dragged her off before she had a chance to explain. Which is good because I thought she was pre-occupy with other things that she wasn't following well. And I didn't feel like dragging around a refrigerator or manhandling her anyway--haven't had my morning coffee yet. Which leads to my question, in regards to leading and following, what is the scope of man's responsibilities and the lady's responsibilities as leaders and followers? At what point is the leader over compensating for a poor follower and is it possilble for a follower to over compensate for poor lead to make a step look/feel descent? It seems to me that there are a lot of high expectations for the other person's role. And we're all too quick to point out that he's not leading correctly or that she's following.

[waltzgirl]

I think that both roles have the responsibility to adjust to the other. Even within acceptable limits, there is a range of light to strong leads and I assume similar differences in followers. But it is tough when either party is outside what you consider accceptable limits--then you have to compensate as well as you can (and hope for a short song ;)). If it makes the dance decent, it's not overcompensating.

[rjcbear]

I'm glad we're talking about this subject because I was at a dance event this weekend and a lady that I danced with critized my lead, saying that I need to "mind her balance". Then she goes on to say that I have to put her exactly where I want her othwerwise she wouldn't know. So, I asked her to elaborate, but her friend dragged her off before she had a chance to explain. Which is good because I thought she was pre-occupy with other things that she wasn't following well. And I didn't feel like dragging around a refrigerator or manhandling her anyway--haven't had my morning coffee yet. Which leads to my question, in regards to leading and following, what is the scope of man's responsibilities and the lady's responsibilities as leaders and followers? At what point is the leader over compensating for a poor follower and is it possilble for a follower to over compensate for poor lead to make a step look/feel descent? It seems to me that there are a lot of high expectations for the other person's role. And we're all too quick to point out that he's not leading correctly or that she's following.

One of my biggest problems was with my frame collapsing and making the other person very unbalance and therefore making the lead very hard to follow I had worked for several months now to have my frame so it will not collapse and now see improvement with the other person following my lead.
What my dance teacher tells me constantly "Gently suggest with the center of your body of what you want her to do or go"

I know is hard sometime to keep that frame but just keep reminding yourself and you should see an improvement.

Just my humble opinion.:banana: <---- See the frame is solid. LOL

[WorksForShoes]

So, here's the question that I asked my partner when she initially answered similarly: do you really think he enjoyed the feeling? Like approaching sex-on-the-dancefloor enjoyed it? Or do you think he enjoys something else about it?


Finally got around to answering this. In the specific case I mentioned, I think the lead in question likes being one of the guys who dances with all the ladies. I don't know if it goes beyond that.

As far as feeling "sex on the dance floor," that is so related for me to a number of factors out of my control, including feeling about my partner (not romantic, necessarily, but at least liking them superficially), the song being played, how the song and its tempo matches with my mood, whether the lead is choosing figures that express the emotion of the dance, the feel of the floor, etc.

You know how it is. You want the earth to move every time, but sometimes the best you can do is try to make it move for you and hope you are taking your partner along with you.

[White Chacha]

I'm glad we're talking about this subject because I was at a dance event this weekend and a lady that I danced with critized my lead, saying that I need to "mind her balance". Then she goes on to say that I have to put her exactly where I want her othwerwise she wouldn't know. So, I asked her to elaborate, but her friend dragged her off before she had a chance to explain. ...

Not to go off topic here, but I have to say that's one of the rudest things to do at a social dance. You pick your partner, or get picked, and you take your chances. You don't have to dance with someone a second time. You don't get ot critique their lead or follow at the end of the dance.

I very rarely will comment on anything in a social setting unless it's someone I know well and we have that kind of relationship *and* they've asked. Otherwise, I'm at a social to have fun.

OK, I've vented :-)

[atk]

White Chacha, We've already veered off the original topic, a bit, but the evolution of the thread is still pretty interesting :)

[atk]

Worksforshoes, Thanks for the reply :) You know how it is. You want the earth to move every time, but sometimes the best you can do is try to make it move for you and hope you are taking your partner along with you. I tend to go with, "the best you can do is to do your best, in such a way that it's as good as possible for your partner" :)

[atk]

The best leaders are the ones who can follow.
True in management. True in dancing.
...
If the man simply allows the lady to move...FOLLOWING her through HER movement instead of "putting" or "placing" her in place


Absolutely valid point. When I said "I'm not a follower" I meant that I'm really not skilled in the role of the follower (though fully half of my lesson, today, was following). I make all the newcomer follower mistakes (back leading, anticipating, everything else that means I'm failing to follow) that simply aren't an issue when you lead, as the leader is ultimately the one choosing what's led :)

On the other hand, I do try as hard as I can to let my partner do her part to follow the lead, then follow her following the lead.

[samina]

One of my biggest problems was with my frame collapsing and making the other person very unbalance and therefore making the lead very hard to follow I had worked for several months now to have my frame so it will not collapse and now see improvement with the other person following my lead.
What my dance teacher tells me constantly "Gently suggest with the center of your body of what you want her to do or go"

I know is hard sometime to keep that frame but just keep reminding yourself and you should see an improvement.

Just my humble opinion.:banana: <---- See the frame is solid. LOL

wonderful to hear! it's so true... a collapsed frame in the lead makes for a tortuous following experience, IME. keep up the great work! :D

[rjcbear]

wonderful to hear! it's so true... a collapsed frame in the lead makes for a tortuous following experience, IME. keep up the great work! :D

Once in a while now when I am very tired for some reason my right arm will collapse and my beautiful Bride will let me know so I have some one that is helping me to remember that frame is very important.