technique help: tips on not being back-weighted

[icequeen]

I have a tendency to be back-weighted in standard. What are some tips to keep your weight forward when moving background? I've heard various things, from keeping hips and torso forward, to making sure legs are straight mid-motion and not dropping the heel of the supporting foot. My problem is that when I do keep hips/torso forward, I end up obstructing the path for the person going forward, and then I'm told to "take your weight back". I must be missing something.... :confused: any technique pointers?

[and123]

Think about keeping your heart over your toes and your butt over your heels, and this roughly approximates where your body parts should be. You definitely don't want your hips forward while moving back or you WILL end up back-weighted b/c your upper body has a natural tendency to counter-balance the pushed-forward hips, and this slams you onto your heel too quickly. You don't want straight legs either. Soft knees allow much more stability and control.

[tunape]

I think a lot of these issues can be addressed with exercises to strength the hip flexors, IT bands, and other core muscles. Other methods is just a descriptive approximation of what it should be.

[atk]

First, you have to know where you're supposed to be - you have to know what that feels like. Try the following exercise, keeping the best posture you can, throughout.

Find a wall
face the wall, with your nose and pelvis touching it.
put your toes against the wall, with your nose and pelvis still touching the wall
try to go up on your toes, without moving your feetYou'll notice that you can't. This is because your weight is behind the ball of your foot - and you can't move your body over the ball of your foot to rise, because the wall's in your way.

Now move your feet back a little - enough to rise up on your toes.

Notice how your body weight is over the balls of your feet when you're up.
Keep your body weight over the balls of your feet as you lower - there's a natural tendency to move your body weight back toward your heels; don't let it.
Notice how far forward your body feels. Try to remember this feeling, as this is where you should be, and how it should feel.Repeat this exercise several times.



Second: moving backwards is difficult. The biggest thing I've noticed women having trouble with is fear of doing a split. To avoid this, women tend to keep their weight on their forward foot - keeping the forward foot completely flat - until the weight makes it onto the rear foot. This puts you equally weighted on two completely flat feet. It also tends to move your pelvis really far forward, giving your body a general slant away from your partner.

The solution is to get off the standing foot as soon as possible. If you were to stand on one foot, and jump straight up (just a little jump, even a hop should work), you wouldn't keep the standing foot on the ground until your body was 6" in the air.

The same goes for moving backward - think of it almost as a perfectly horizontal jump (this is a really bad analogy for how you should be moving, as it would make the movement extremely jerky, but it seems to fit with how you want to get off your foot). When you move backward, try to get the heck off that standing foot - try to almost jump backward onto the next foot.

Then, there's the problem of not keeping your foot on the ground. When you reach back with your leg (and only your leg, not your waist or your pelvis), your toes should be touching the ground, completely unweighted. If they're touching the ground, then you aren't wondering where the ground is. You also won't be wondering if you're going to land on something, or crash into something - that back foot acts as a feeler, and will come into contact with anything behind you before you move. And that contact will be light, because you don't have any weight on it, so it's nice and light :)



Then, there's always, "You never dance backward. Your poise should always be forward, into your partner, even when your steps are backward". You might benefit from just trying to stay into your partner enough to maintain the connection.


Whatever it is, it's probably best addressed by the teacher, unless you can find some more specific way to ask the question :)

[atk]

One more thought: are you primarily a latin dancer? (It happens with others, of course, too) You may have the habit of using your toe
to push off of the standing foot, which can keep your hips forward of your shoulders, and shorten your step. (whereas you should be using the heel of the standing foot)

[Chris Stratton]

Second: moving backwards is difficult. The biggest thing I've noticed women having trouble with is fear of doing a split. To avoid this, women tend to keep their weight on their forward foot - keeping the forward foot completely flat - until the weight makes it onto the rear foot. This puts you equally weighted on two completely flat feet. It also tends to move your pelvis really far forward, giving your body a general slant away from your partner.

The solution is to get off the standing foot as soon as possible. If you were to stand on one foot, and jump straight up (just a little jump, even a hop should work), you wouldn't keep the standing foot on the ground until your body was 6" in the air.

The same goes for moving backward - think of it almost as a perfectly horizontal jump (this is a really bad analogy for how you should be moving, as it would make the movement extremely jerky, but it seems to fit with how you want to get off your foot). When you move backward, try to get the heck off that standing foot - try to almost jump backward onto the next foot.

PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!!!!!!!!

What needs to happen is that the location of the weight pressure moves backwards in the standing foot from the ball of foot, to the middle, to the very rear edge of the heel. The weight is supported and the movement sustained by pushing from the rear edge of the heel to the hip. Even after the body weight is no longer above the departing foot, you can still support it by pushing from that foot as long as you are willing to continue to push the body movement larger and larger.

Note that moving your weight to the rear edge of the heel will cause the toe to raise from the floor, exactly as was described by the original technique authors years ago. Getting comfortable doing that in heels obviously requires sturdy made-for-standard shoes, and a fair amount of devleoped ankle strength.

[atk]

Chris describes what to do far better than I did :) And, as I originally stated, my description was a bad approximation, and if done exactly as described would cause problems.

My intent was to illustrate the idea of getting off of the front foot, in a simple manner. Apparently, I lost my intent in my failed description :)

[Chris Stratton]

My problem is that when I do keep hips/torso forward, I end up obstructing the path for the person going forward, and then I'm told to "take your weight back". I must be missing something.... :confused: any technique pointers?

Speakin in relation to where you find yourself in trouble, you need to bring your sternum more forward, while using the progress of your weight towards and beyond the heel of the standing foot to carry your hips backwards.

* The feet work to create progress of your entire body through the movement.

* Your posture works to concentrate your connection/partner resistance towards your upper center - you don't want to lean forward, but you also don't want to lean back and let your presentation concentrate in your low center or hips. The lower portion of your spine should be nearly vertical - legs free to move in the hip sockets below, and any shape coming in primarily in the upper back.

[Chris Stratton]

My intent was to illustrate the idea of getting off of the front foot, in a simple manner. Apparently, I lost my intent in my failed description :)

That's okay.

Personally, I would change the focus on getting "off" the front foot to instead pushing "away" from the front foot. The reason being that creating movement is about your body departing away from the spot on the floor where your standing foot is, and doing so at a time when that standing foot is still supporting you.

This would contrast with the faults of abandoning the standing foot by falling onto the next without first using the departing foot to push from, or staying stationary over the standing foot by reaching the moving leg on its own without proportionally moving the body.

[Ithink]

I agree - do not get off the standing foot as soon as possible! This is the foot you use to its utmost (as Chris said from toe, to middle to heel as your body progresses back) to keep your movement smooth and long. If you get off the standing foot, you will look like your are running instead of dancing, you will not be musical and while you won't be in your partners way, neither will you be where you're supposed to be for him to lead you. You have to use your hips, your back and your thighs to move your center backwards from being over your standing foot's toe to its heel, instead of trying to get out of your partner's way by running from foot to foot...

[atk]

Chris,

Well stated :)

[icequeen]

The descriptions are helpful, thanks.

Let me make sure I understand. You're saying that I should focus on keeping my sternum forward, not my hips forward? So the hips should just be loose and available for movement as directed by the lead? Or should the hips also be forward, but just less so than the sternum, with the primary focus being a straight back? I have one teacher who talks about sending the hips forward when taking back steps to always maintain the hip/torso connection. Should I think about keeping hips forward along with the torso and sternum, or just send the latter forward?

[and123]

You do NOT want your hips glued to your partner. Neither of you will be able to move properly.

[Chris Stratton]

The idea is to not let your sternum (or at least the lower edge of it) get too far behind your hips. If you want a lot of shape, put it in higher in your back while keeping your lower trunk veritcal. Otherwise your partner will just feel your hips, with the rest of you falling away somewhere behind them.

To actually move, what you want to do is to push all of your body away from your standing foot, while ideally not disturbing the poise or position of the rest of your body from where it was when you were over your standing foot.

If we had a "people mover" in an airport with sidewalls that came to waist high, and we watched you riding it while standing in perfect dance position - that undisturbed look is what it should look like if you practice a series of backwards walks. (Of course actually dancing would add rise and fall and swing)

[waltzgirl]

The problem with advice when we can't see you is we don't know where you're starting from. Advice to lift your hips forward or up to your partner can be valid, depending on where they are to begin with.

Another thing to help stop being backweighted is to be sure that your knees are flexed forward (not just down, which forces you to stick your butt out and moves your weight backwards). And as you step back, send the knee of the standing leg forward.

[icequeen]

Thanks, everyone.

I am getting concerned now because I have a new teacher, and am realizing that the way I learned standard from my former am partner and pro coach is wrong. For example, I learned to really drag my feet during ALL steps and to take my leg back first, instead of pushing off the supporting and taking the body weight back. That often left the lead pushing into me, feeling that I'm obstructed, because my hips are still there but one leg is trailing behind. I also seemed to have acquired a really back-weighted posture and "broken" topline that's too far to the left. Let's not even mention footwork--I never even heard the concept of split weight until recently! Are there different philosophies in teaching and dance, or did my former teachers just not really know their stuff? Argh, it's frustrating to feel like I have to learn everything all over again....

If I can ask you guys for another tip: when going forward, is it accurate to say that there needs to be a distinct moment after rolling through the toes to the heels when the front heel is on the ground, back foot is rolling to the toes, and both legs are straight? How does one get the straight leg action while having the topline completely level, like the airport conveyer belt as was described (this applies to both front and back walks)?

[fascination]

um...maybe it's just me, but what you just stated you got from previous coaches/instruction sounds correct...perhaps it is just the way you are implementing it

[waltzgirl]

It sounds like you're getting different parts of the elephant from different teachers. Yes, you start your leg back first, but you also push off from the standing leg. And you should have good foot pressure, but I wouldn't call it dragging the feet. As far as split weight goes, my instructor didn't introduce it until I was pretty good at getting my weight over one foot.

[Chris Stratton]

If I can ask you guys for another tip: when going forward, is it accurate to say that there needs to be a distinct moment after rolling through the toes to the heels when the front heel is on the ground, back foot is rolling to the toes, and both legs are straight?

No, it's not really something that practically needs to occur, and would rarely be seen other than in an out-of-context demonstration.

What is important in practical terms is to send the body forwards into the step without leaving the hips behind - it turns out to be even harder to fully project your body forwards while maintaing a vertical core than it is to project it backwards.

Going backwards is a challenge for your standing ankle proportionate to the height of the shoe heel. Going forwards on the other hand is a challenge for your standing toes and your body core muscles. You can take a fairly large back step cautiously by rolling through your feet with skill, but taking a full forwards step pretty much requires committing to the movement for better or worse.

[Chris Stratton]

Yes, you start your leg back first, but you also push off from the standing leg.

Specifically, you start the lower half of your back leg first, by bending the knee while the thighs stay almost together.

The involvment of the whole leg comes about as a result of dividing your thighs by pushing your body away from your standing foot.

[atk]

Like fascination said, what you describe sounds like the way you're supposed to do it.




For example, I learned to really drag my feet during ALL steps and to take my leg back first, instead of pushing off the supporting and taking the body weight back.


Yes, your feet should always be touching the floor. Yes, the moving reaches behind you before your body leaves the supporting leg.


That often left the lead pushing into me, feeling that I'm obstructed, because my hips are still there but one leg is trailing behind.


Someone else will probably nail the issue better than me, but this could be lingering on the standing foot for too long (or I could just have a one track mind).


Are there different philosophies in teaching and dance


Absolutely!


, or did my former teachers just not really know their stuff?


They were probably focusing on what you needed to work on, most.


If I can ask you guys for another tip: when going forward, is it accurate to say that there needs to be a distinct moment after rolling through the toes to the heels when the front heel is on the ground, back foot is rolling to the toes, and both legs are straight? How does one get the straight leg action while having the topline completely level, like the airport conveyer belt as was described (this applies to both front and back walks)?

There definitely is a transitory moment when you're on both feet - heel of one foot, and toes of the other. Going both forwards and backwards. One teacher at my studio likes to describe it as a film of a dancer. Moving in one direction is like playing the film forward. Moving in the other direction is like playing it backward.

Not sure if this applies to the question, but from what I've learned, the legs should never be completely (locked) straight. There should always be a slight flex to the knees - more in foxtrot than in waltz, and more in tango than in fox trot.

And the topline will not really be completely level with the ground, at all times, when dancing with swing and sway.

But, as said, I'm sure someone will come along and give a far better description, and far better answer than I'm capable of (paging Chris Stratton... *grin* )

[atk]

*grin* I guess I was too late in my post. Both Chris and waltzgirl put it very well.

[Ithink]

I would NOT think of moving your leg first. A lot of followers do this (myself included until I was told NOT to by my current coach) and it simply looks ugly, legs shooting backwards independently of movement or any sort of lead. Moving your legs backward for the sake of moving them is anticipating the lead (you assume your partner will lead you to go backwards before he leads you to do so - what if someone's in the way and he wants you to wait or move forward, what then?). You want to keep your moving leg as much underneath your body and as long as possible so that you actually use your standing foot to its fullest before changing weight to the moving foot. Seems to me your former coaches were either imparting incorrect information or you misunderstood what they were saying (HIGHLY possible as I've done it many times before) and implemented correct information incorrectly or overdid what they were correcting to move to the opposite, equally incorrect direction...

In any case, you want your hips free to swing with your center, not glued to your partner, obstructing his way. You thus want them to be as underneath your center as you can get them so that once you feel your partner's lead through your center, your center can signal the hips as quickly as possible to shorten your reaction time to the lead. Also, yes, doing this will also make you drag your feet, also an incorrect thing to do. If you wait to shift weight long enough so that your center passes over your entire standing foot, you will simply roll off the heel as you shift weight - no dragging... The best technical lady dancers do not even need heel protectors because they do NOT drag their feet behind them - the weight shift is very seamless. People who complain about wearing their heel protectors very quickly are doing something incorrectly to cause that; with correct tehcnique that shouldn't be happening, at least not as quickly as they complain about...

Anyways, sounds like your instruction now is good (since you're in DC, I might even know your coach) so have fun learning - that's the best part of dancing:)

[atk]

Seems to me your former coaches were either imparting incorrect information or you misunderstood what they were saying


Or they could have been working on the most significant issue by providing a description that would work at the time, while intending to correct the next problem (including over-compensation caused by the initial correction) later...

[waltzgirl]

Or they could have been working on the most significant issue by providing a description that would work at the time, while intending to correct the next problem (including over-compensation caused by the initial correction) later...


Yes, because teaching is (and should be) so individualized, advice to one student on what they need to do to be in the right position won't necessarily be the same as another student's. Student A could be told to move their hips forward and student B to move them back, with the same position as the goal. The problem comes when a student interprets corrective advice as a description of the goal.

[tangotime]

[quote=atk;451378]Like fascination said, what you describe sounds like the way you're supposed to do it.





Yes, your feet should always be touching the floor.

Not entirely true--- To quote a world famous coach-- " the feet do not leave the floor naturally "

The release of the foot from the floor ( a skimming action ) should occur after the non supporting leg has travelled approx 1- 2 inches "--- this release, prevents the " heavy " look acquired, when too much pressure is applied to the moving leg .

[Some Day]

The problem with advice when we can't see you is we don't know where you're starting from. Advice to lift your hips forward or up to your partner can be valid, depending on where they are to begin with.

Another thing to help stop being backweighted is to be sure that your knees are flexed forward (not just down, which forces you to stick your butt out and moves your weight backwards). And as you step back, send the knee of the standing leg forward.

I have a similar issue to icequeen w/ being backweighted. I have a 'sway back' (butt sticks out and ugly curve of the back). When I try to tilt my hips forward to straighten my back, it hurts and I can't sustain for very long. So, I don't think I'm doing this correctly.

Now I'm wondering if maybe what Waltzgirl mentions could be affecting me, ie. I'm bending my knees but they're not flexed forward. Hmmmm.

[Josh]

I would NOT think of moving your leg first. A lot of followers do this (myself included until I was told NOT to by my current coach) and it simply looks ugly, legs shooting backwards independently of movement or any sort of lead.

I tend to agree Ithink, as reaching the leg back without moving the body will throw off timing, prevent proper power/swing action, and look unsightly.

But again, I have told many ladies to, well, to paraphrase it, "get your **** thigh out of my way". :wink: So it's a combination of extension of the leg with pushing off the standing leg that will move the entire body, including the leg (and thigh specifically) out of the way of the forward moving partner. Simply pushing off the leg without a swing/extension of the moving leg will result in a potentially good movement that still blocks forward movement from the partner, and likewise, as we said just a second ago, an extension of the leg alone is obviously not enough either.

Far too often people (including myself) take one statement and focus solely on it so much that they forget there are so many factors involved. In the body/technique of a good dancer, there are many things happening well at once. This is where the challenge in dancing comes in--putting good technique together with other good technique, and allowing them to coexist peacefully!

[White Chacha]

I think a lot of these issues can be addressed with exercises to strength the hip flexors, IT bands, and other core muscles. Other methods is just a descriptive approximation of what it should be.

If you're going to do any strengthening exercises, also learn how to stretch the corresponding tissues. Failing to do that can lead to other unpleasant problems.

[icequeen]

Thanks, everyone, for the advice. You're probably right that all of the coaches were aiming for the same end goal, but were just describing different pieces of technique. Probably what happened is that I didn't hear enough of the "whole" picture, and/or misinterpreted, so I ended up overemphasizing the wrong part of what they meant. For example, what I mean by foot drag is that I would literally draaaag my heel during forward steps instead of taking body weight forward and reaching heel out at the last moment. In backward walks, I would stick out my back leg without getting my body weight back, and then overcompensate lack of body weight by leaning my torso back instead of taking hips back. Eck! What a mess.

A little bit of a tangent: I have been (obviously) working hard to understand and correct these former "bad" habits. I am finding that when I dance with relatively good leaders, I can incorporate what I am working on and the posture and movement feel pretty good. However, when I dance with pretty bad or really newbie leaders with stiff frame and body weight problems (not heavy weight, just problems with taking body weight around), my posture and movement suffer too. Since I'm not at the point when I can compensate for a leader's shortcomings, what should I focus on when dancing with a beginner leader in a way that still allows me to practice the key points and not get worse in the process?

[waltzgirl]

Sounds like you're on the right track!

I know what you mean by being affected by not-so-well-trained leaders. I went to a new social last night that was frequented by a lot of people who have never taken private lessons. Boy, was that work! One guy was literally pushing or pulling me off-balance with every step.

When I dance with a beginning leader, I usually focus on foot pressure and articulation and making sure that I get solidly over each foot. I can have an enjoyable and useful dance even if we're only doing progressive basics around the room.

[Josh]

For example, what I mean by foot drag is that I would literally draaaag my heel during forward steps instead of taking body weight forward and reaching heel out at the last moment.

Just to be sure icequeen--the last part of what you wrote above... do you mean that this is what you think you should be doing? Again, it's hard when there's no way to see what you're doing, but I certainly would not recommend doing what you describe above. There must be a balance of reaching with the moving leg--it shouldn't be thought of as either "in front of the body" (which often results in a backweighted posture) or at the other extreme, "at the last moment" (which would result in a tipping forward of the body, and a sudden burst of movement instead of a smooth one). Think of the moving leg and body moving together, not as one before the other.

[icequeen]

Just to be sure icequeen--the last part of what you wrote above... do you mean that this is what you think you should be doing? Again, it's hard when there's no way to see what you're doing, but I certainly would not recommend doing what you describe above. There must be a balance of reaching with the moving leg--it shouldn't be thought of as either "in front of the body" (which often results in a backweighted posture) or at the other extreme, "at the last moment" (which would result in a tipping forward of the body, and a sudden burst of movement instead of a smooth one). Think of the moving leg and body moving together, not as one before the other.

I agree, Josh. I wasn't clear enough--I meant that before, I was literally sticking out my heel and just dragging it for the entire forward walk. Definitely agree that it should be body weight moving foward with leg moving forward, but my understanding is that heel lead just means heel touches before the toe, not that there is huge heel drag during the whole time the body weight is going forward.

[Josh]

I agree, Josh. I wasn't clear enough--I meant that before, I was literally sticking out my heel and just dragging it for the entire forward walk. Definitely agree that it should be body weight moving foward with leg moving forward, but my understanding is that heel lead just means heel touches before the toe, not that there is huge heel drag during the whole time the body weight is going forward.

I understand now icequeen, and you are correct. Be aware though, not to just pick the toe up, put the heel down, and go--when the foot comes under the body, it does so on the ball of the foot, and as the foot goes forward past the other foot, it is still a ball, and only after this does it turn into a heel. You probably know this, but some may not.