Salsa music BPM speed determination for comp

[rhythm mouse]

I have an Amateur Salsa comp coming up in 2 weeks, and we're trying to get a feel for the music speed they'll play. My instructor (who is only mildly coaching us with this - not part of my regular program) was trying to help us figure it out, but was equally unsure, except to say that in competition settings, there is a standard speed for EVERY type of rhythm. In this case, he says, "they'll play a medium speed Salsa" (not specific enough, I'm afraid).

Does anyone know what the standard speed is for a Salsa comp?
Do you know how to determine it from a CD (i.e. counting # beats in a minute, 1/2 min, etc. doesnt' appear to be even close to "regulation".) I have two different web sites with BPM listing and they are miles apart for the exact same song. For example "Aisha" by Africando is listed on Ultimate Latin 5 CD (I have it) as 43 bpm, and on the ballroomdancers.com site it is listed as 172 bpm.

I'm always worried I'm starting a thread everyone else has already been-there-done-that; yet in my searches, I haven't seen anything about this around here. Maybe I'm too technically challenged...:confused:
Thanks for the help...

[sweavo]

DJs and electronic musicians talk in Beats Per Minute, whereas ballroom folks talk in Bars Per Minute or Measures per Minute. Since you have 4 beats per bar, it's reasonable to assume that it's 43 bars per minute, which == 172 Beats Per Minute.

It shouldn't be too hard to tell which BPM is in use at a given time, as 80 beats per minute would be extremely slow music and 80 bars per minute would be exremely fast. So numbers lower than 80 are likely to be in Bars and those above are likely to be in beats.

As to "standard speeds" I have no idea sorry!

[Josh]

In addition to what sweavie said--

Is this a salsa comp, or a ballroom comp with salsa heats? If this is a strict salsa competition, then chances are any tempo would be allowed--if a salsa organization sponsors the event, then it's whatever they say, which is probably "whatever we want it to be."

IME, salsa entries at ballroom comps tend to use a song with a traditional mambo tempo. USISTD lists this as 48-51 measures per minute. This translates to 24-25 phrases of 8 per minute, or 192-204 beats per minute. This is of course a very rough guide. Be prepared for faster speeds, and slow it down as necessary. Salsa for competitions tends to be judged quite loosely, as there are no syllabi to follow, and thus the tempo requirements tend to be loose as well.

[MacMoto]

If this is a strict salsa competition, then chances are any tempo would be allowed--if a salsa organization sponsors the event, then it's whatever they say, which is probably "whatever we want it to be."
Very true, although I think, if it's an amateur competition, organisers tend to play medium-speed songs, as rhythm mouse's teacher says.

As to what is medium-speed salsa, as a non-ballroom, non-competing salsa dancer, I can only say "those songs we all find easiest to dance to -- not fast, not too slow"... :oops:

[tj]

The salsa dj, El Caobo, puts definitions of slow, medium, & fast over on the music section of our sister site, www.salsaforums.com (http://www.salsaforums.com). I'll go copy his definition over here.


************************************************** **********

Key to Salsa Beats Per Minute (BPM):

The Beats Per Minute that we use are NOT based on the dancer's count; which would make the number exactly double!

- ?? to 87 BPM: Can be danceable, but the tempo is slow.
- 88 to 95 BPM: Usually ideal for dancing.
- 96 to ?? BPM: Can be danceable, but the tempo is fast.

************************************************** *********


So Aisha would be 172 / 2 = 86 BPM (slow tempo) by this definition.

[tangotime]

Josh-- thats his opinion ( and thats o.k.) but when comps. are involved, as you are aware, the best way to find out-- contact the organiser . They may have set official speeds .

remember-- one mans dura-- anothers descarga .

[Josh]

The salsa dj, El Caobo, puts definitions of slow, medium, & fast over on the music section of our sister site, www.salsaforums.com (http://www.salsaforums.com). I'll go copy his definition over here.

So Aisha would be 172 / 2 = 86 BPM (slow tempo) by this definition.

Well, I can't agree on his rationale for counting "dancers beats" and "musical beats" differently, but I understand what he is saying. He's counting "1, 2, 3, 4" where we're counting "12, 34, 56, 78".

[sweavo]

Well, I can't agree on his rationale for counting "dancers beats" and "musical beats" differently, but I understand what he is saying. He's counting "1, 2, 3, 4" where we're counting "12, 34, 56, 78".

Those BPMs look like he's counting half-notes, i.e. counting to four where we dancers all count to 8...

[rhythm mouse]

DJs and electronic musicians talk in Beats Per Minute, whereas ballroom folks talk in Bars Per Minute or Measures per Minute. Since you have 4 beats per bar, it's reasonable to assume that it's 43 bars per minute, which == 172 Beats Per Minute.

It shouldn't be too hard to tell which BPM is in use at a given time, as 80 beats per minute would be extremely slow music and 80 bars per minute would be exremely fast. So numbers lower than 80 are likely to be in Bars and those above are likely to be in beats.

As to "standard speeds" I have no idea sorry!

Well - that also answers my unwritten question - what is mpm vs bpm. I'm musically trained, so bars vs. beats per minute makes more sense, and helps greatly with the discrepancy I was finding. I highly appreciate the background in all this. Thanks, sweavo.

This is an "Amateur Street Salsa" comp, that runs on a Friday evening after all the Ballroom sessions for that day (Cincinnati DanceSport). So I would guess that the "standards" so to speak, will be very loose. The organizer of the event is also the franchisee of my studio, but I see her very rarely. I don't think she'll have much to add, except to yield to the DJ of the event, who has been doing this event for years. Don't know where to find him exactly, but I just might try.

TJ - the definitions are awesome, thx.

My partner and I actually thrive on the faster Salsas ("I Love Salsa"), so that much wouldn't be a problem. However, we don't want to practice at that speed; I've found it to be much harder to slow it down than the other way around, and think we'd best prepare for it that way.

Where do you guys get this stuff anyway?

:cheers:Much obliged

[waltzgirl]

If the same DJ has been doing it for years, could you find someone who has participated before? They could tell you what they experienced and might even remember some of the songs used in previous years.

[rhythm mouse]

I actually have video footage from last years comp - and I'm familiar with the music they played then from the Salsa club we frequent now. I'm just trying to determine the approx speed of the music we already have, so we can practice. My partner seems to have this endless supply of Salsa music, so we're trying to pull appropriate practice songs from that. The trouble is, they're not marked by bpm/mpm or anything else.

I'm trying to locate several songs that he might be familiar with (or has), and let him know the speeds of those, so he can bring them to practice.
This isn't life or death, but as I started looking into it, it only served to become more confusing.

Believe me, I've been talking with everyone I know. My partner was more familiar with all this than I (friends of his have competed before), though he himself has never entered.

[sweavo]

well to get your mpm, count
1,(2,3,4),
2,(2,3,4),
3,(2,3,4),
4,(2,3,4),
5,(2,3,4) ... etc for fifteen seconds and multiply by 4, or for 30 seconds and multiply by 2. To get beats per minute, multiply the answer by 4.

[rhythm mouse]

well to get your mpm, count
1,(2,3,4),
2,(2,3,4),
3,(2,3,4),
4,(2,3,4),
5,(2,3,4) ... etc for fifteen seconds and multiply by 4, or for 30 seconds and multiply by 2. To get beats per minute, multiply the answer by 4.


So how is bars per minute different from measures per minute?

[tangotime]

Semantics !

[waltzgirl]

Bars and measures are the same. The other "b" is beat, so sometimes bpm = beats per minute.

[sweavo]

Semantics !

yes - americans usually call it a measure, brits usually call it a bar. For our purposes, both mean four beats.

[salseiro]

Tools such as http://www.b-boys.com/classic/beatcounter.html can be handy for counting BPM :-)

[PsychoSalsaGuy]

For example "Aisha" by Africando is listed on Ultimate Latin 5 CD (I have it) as 43 bpm, and on the ballroomdancers.com site it is listed as 172 bpm.If it's the same Aïcha (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wjfpxvqjld0e~T001) by Africando (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:dxfyxqe5ldte~T00) that I have, from the Baloba (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:3nfuxq9jldae~T00) album, both are wrong. 172 bpm is quite slow for a salsa song. Marc Anthony (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fzfuxqy5ld6e~T00)’s Si Tú No Te Fueras (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:h9fqxvtjldte~T001) on Otra Nota ( http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:0bfoxqtgld0e~T00) is 172bpm. Aïcha is definitely faster. The tempo is actually about 196 beats per minute. I counted it manually with http://web.forret.com/tools/bpm_count.asp and confirmed it with http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/metronome.php


Computer programs that automatically count tempo often get salsa wrong. Salsa's too complex. I don't trust any source for the tempo (though it's nice to have a starting point.) I manually figure out (or at least confirm) the tempo myself for all of my music.

[tangotime]

I dont think there has ever been a composition in dance music, that is written with an odd number of bars per minute-- the phrasing would be nigh impossible !!
Some latin bands, add a " pick up bar" and then revert back to the standard 16 and 32s

[delamusica]

I dont think there has ever been a composition in dance music, that is written with an odd number of bars per minute-- the phrasing would be nigh impossible !!
Some latin bands, add a " pick up bar" and then revert back to the standard 16 and 32s


What??

As long as the phrases are even, it doesn't matter a lick whether or not they fit evenly into a minute.

[Ron Obvious]

This is funny: I tested these tools on the song from Africando/Baloba/Aïcha with the following results:

salseiros tool http://www.b-boys.com/classic/beatcounter.html => 172 bpm or 43 mpm

PsychoSalsaGuys tool: http://web.forret.com/tools/bpm_count.asp => 192 bpm or 48 mpm

I counted so that I pressed the button twice for each clave, which according to my understanding should be two bars or measures long, and multiplied the results from above programs with 4. I am however a bit confused, because both these programs report the lower value (ie 43 and 48 respectively) as beats per minute. Shouldn't this be bars? That's what I though I was counting.

Doesn't one clave pattern consist of 8 beats: 4 upbeats and 4 downbeats; and two bars?

[tangotime]

If you are using electronic equip ( my mixing board is top of the line ) they told me, there has not been ONE yet, that is accurate )
As to Music-- 4 beats to the bar, coupled into an Octave . The ascending bar, and the descending . 2 bars in all.
As we know, most music is written in 16 and 32 bar segments -- now place that quantity of music into a time frame-- for e.g.--- one minute-- ergo-- 32 bars per minute, times 4 -- 128 " beats " .
That speed, would occur more in the ballroom genre .

[Ron Obvious]

I'm not sure I know what you mean: I counted the bars manually from the song that I palyed on my computer, and these programs count the bpm for you based on how you press the keys on your computer. The thing is that they yielded different results from the same song (and I cannot have counted that much differently)
.

[sweavo]

It looks like the tools want you to tap along to beats, not bars! So by tapping bars you are getting bars per minute... if you tapped on all of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 then you'd get a readout in beats per minute.

[tangotime]

Q # 1-- did you include the intro. ?-- # 2-- the speeds of the 2 parts,
may not be in sync.

Simplest way if you want accuracy--sweep hand of watch-- count in bars , as in 1-234.-- 2-234 etc for 20secs-- then multiply result by 3-- giving you the # of bars per minute .

Alls left to do-- multiply total of # bars by 4-- = beats per min.