Feedback please - 2007 USA Dance Nationals

[Borbala_Bunnett]

Hello All,

Congratulations to all who danced and spectated at Nationals this weekend! It was a great event, we certainly enjoyed being able to dance there.

As USA Dance is shifting gears and shifting the Nationals' committee's focus to the 2008 Nationals, we would like to ask you for input so we can continue refining and improving the event. We would like to hear what you liked at the 2007 (and prior) Nationals, what did you not like, what would you like to see at future events etc. While we will not be able to accommodate all requests and suggestions, we would like to get input from the 'customers' of the event - YOU!

Please post your comments in this thread, or if you prefer, send a PM.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts - thank you for your input -

Borbala
Region 4 Dancesport Delegate
Active Athletes Network Co-Chair

[swan]

1) Hotel accommodation
Plus - was nice & the competition floor & surrounding set up was great. This was better than SJ Nationals.

Negative - Rooms were pricier than San Jose - which I find it interesting as Silicon Valley should be more
expensive. Also standard rooms were sold out too fast. Standard rooms were even $30 more than SJ's.

Also there's nothing close by the hotel to fetch things. I had a car & had to drive far to get to a
grocery store! Concierge told me to go to South Indiana! I ended up in a different state! :)

2) Actual location
Negative - expensive to fly into. Would like to see a location that has more direct flights& cheaper airfare.

San Jose was much better in this sense.

3) Entry cost
Can be lower or let people select sessions they want to attend

Again, San Jose Nationals' model was good for this.
But I do see the point of forcing this all session pass - got more people to watch events, thus better
audience attendance.

4) Video Vendor
Please secure a reputable vendor next time that has 6 cameras & can stay for the whole event!
SJ Nationals did a better job. Also the videographer in SJ Nationals messed up my taping, but they had
a back up machine set up upstairs & was able to pull a copy for me to compensate for not taping me.
So get that vendor next time :)

5) Photographer
I was pleased to see the official photographer as he is reasonably priced & usually produces nice action
photos (have had his service for couple of prior comps & liked what I saw).

[tunape]

Some general comments:
1) Everything went smoothly, I greatly enjoyed how organized everything seemed to be. Registration, logistical flow, and operations was well done.

2) Location. Again, Louisville was a little hard to fly into. The venue was nice and central for the city.

3) Vendors were great! A good load of them, and a good selection of products too. Although I didn't use the concession stand, it's a great service!

4) Dance floor. Perhaps it's just me, but I seem to enjoy a larger dance floor(width and length), especially for standard.. There was plenty of space, and I don't see why the bleachers couldn't be pushed back a bit. This was problematic in the standard semifinals where they would typically put 12 couples on the floor at a time. We definitely felt crowded in both prechamp and champ standard levels. I noticed many couples running off the floor as well.

5) Perhaps there can be a video/camera stand for people to shoot, with power strip and all. Sometimes it was annoying to try to film over spectator's head.

6) I really liked the detailed schedule and the screen with the upcoming events! That was very clear, and helped me to manage my time better.

All and all, I found the staff to be friendly, the comp to be well organized, and it was an enjoyable experience overall.

[swan]

4) Dance floor. I noticed many couples running off the floor as well..

Yup, we're one of them, w/ my heel off in the air as I was on the edge of the corner :) The floor could be slightly bigger. But I think it's no smaller than the SJ Nationals and certainly was better size than the recent NDCA comp I attended. That comp, the short wall was really SHORT! But I heard that's because of NDCA floor size regulation.

But of course, as a standard dancer, I'm all for a bigger floor :)


6) I really liked the detailed schedule and the screen with the upcoming events! That was very clear, and helped me to manage my time better.

All and all, I found the staff to be friendly, the comp to be well organized, and it was an enjoyable experience overall.

Agreed!

[Joe]

Floor was good, though as mentioned, a smidge short--maybe one block.

Can't really complain too much about the location for 2008... :D

[Ithink]

1. Hotel location - very convenient; nice to be able to change and do make up in your room and then just go downstairs to warm up and dance. The rooms were more expensive than the SJ Nationals room block but we also didn't have to walk across the street in our ballgowns to dance.

2. Hotel itself - as I mentioned in the other thread, the service was pretty slow (but it IS the South) and not quite up to par for how nice the hotel seems to be. The elevators were terrible; we never knew if we were going to stop at our floor or not, despite pushing the right button. It was well-located and there were several decent restaurants walking distance from the hotel, so that was good. I didn't expect it to be by a grocery store, as there are rarely grocery stores in a downtown business district of any city - I brought snacks from home, packed in my luggage...

3. The comp itself - very nice. I liked the ballroom set up a lot. The floor was a little short and a little cramped in the bigger rounds but it was very nice size in both of the finals we danced... LOVE the intstant recall gratification - the screen showing the recalls and the upcoming heats was conveniently located, by the on deck area, and VERY helpful. The on-deck personnel was soooo nice. They made me feel welcome there as a competitor. Everything behind the scenes seemed very well organized and things generally ran on time as far as I could tell.

4. Vendors - for the first time ever I didn't even look at the vendors but there seemed to be many dance things available for purchase:) There was even a foot massage vendor which I did try briefly!

5. Photos - who was the photographer (I knew there was one but didn't have time to check for his info)? Where can we look at pics?

6. Practice floor - very nice and well-located.

7. Dressing rooms - I only used it on Sunday when we no longer had access to our hotel room and it seemed fine. Maybe a few more mirrors in the dressing room would have been nice...

8. Registration - everyone at the reg. desk was VERY nice and helpful. I wish the pricing scheme was more akin to SJ Regionals where it was pay-per-session or at least, if we had to buy a 3-day pass, if it was slightly cheaper. But it's true that the pricing scheme did increase audience numbers which was good for competitors to see, especially those of us NOT dancing in the packed evening sessions:)

9. Location - Louisville was not too expensive for us to fly into (thank you Southwest) but if you didn't jump on tickets early, very early as we did, it was a pretty expensive location to fly to. Something that's more of a hub for flights would be better...

10. Thanks so much to the organizers - it was a very well-run competition and everyone I dealt is was very nice. helpful and friendly. THANKS!

Oh yeah, the location for 2008 Nationals is AWESOME! We should have it there every year;)

[Joe]

Oh, one more thing about the award system that I'm sure I've mentioned before: just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I refer, of course, to the fact that the PDA judging system gives almost instantaneous results. F me gently with a chainsaw, can't you give the competitors a couple of minutes to catch their breath, wipe their faces or get a drink of water before you announce their placements? Run another heat in between or something, jeez!

[fascination]

joseph....

[samina]

yah, but it's so funny...

[fascination]

when you aren't a mod it's great

[samina]

<sigh of relief from this end...>

[fascination]

okay, BOT

[mamboqueen]

when you aren't a mod it's great

yeah, I get a lashing over less than that!

[fascination]

well we do have to watch you like a hawk...unhighjack

[mamboqueen]

:tongue:

[Egoist]

Oh, one more thing about the award system that I'm sure I've mentioned before: just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I refer, of course, to the fact that the PDA judging system gives almost instantaneous results. F me gently with a chainsaw, can't you give the competitors a couple of minutes to catch their breath, wipe their faces or get a drink of water before you announce their placements? Run another heat in between or something, jeez!

I disagree. Better to get the results now than a little later.

[Indiana_Jay]

OK, Borbala, please keep in mind that this comes from non-competing spectators.

We were very pleased to see raised seating (including the hard bleachers). When we heard the comp would be in a hotel, we feared rows of chairs on the floor, making it impossible for anyone not in the first couple of rows to see anything.

With regard to the bleachers, I'm sure you were lucky to get the ones you had, but if it's possible to get some with steps on the ends that are easier to climb, that would be good. Several spectators had noticeable difficulty ascending the bleachers in Louisville, especially when they were crowded.

The social dance room was a nice touch. There was very little opportunity for general dancing on the main floor and the social dance room helped non-competing spectators to ward off "spectator fatigue."

My LW has a suggestion for the dressing rooms. Park a curtain partition just inside the door (heck, even a "white board" on wheels would suffice), so that when people are entering and exiting, sight lines from the hallway are blocked. At one time, I noticed rest room stalls filled with competitors changing clothes. Couldn't help but wonder why they weren't using the dressing room.

FWIW, LW and I observed that we were in a distinct minority -- spectators who not only were not competing but also were not family members or friends of competitors. We probably wouldn't even had been there if the venue this year didn't happen to be a reasonable drive from home. This year's nationals will likely be the last we attend, therefore, until and unless they happen in the Midwest again.

But if you wish to encourage more people like us to attend in the future, be sure to continue offering good seating for spectators, things to do outside the competition room (like social dancing) and dressing rooms for competitors so we spectators can get in the restrooms. Also be sure to promote the comp. as a spectator activity, particularly among all the social dancers in nearby chapters.

-IJ

[Alskling]

Agreed re the bleachers. Good sight lines, but with no stairs or aisle space, you had to climb over people to find a seat. They were also a bit rickety for my taste, especially since some of the kids running around were using them as a jungle gym! Not reassuring to have the whole bleacher structure wobble when an 8 year old kid climbs on it.

Other than that, most everything was very nicely done. My one suggestion would be to train the on-deck people more thoroughly on the use of the PDAs. We had to check in 3 times for our event before our presence was registered--the last time someone came flying up to us with a paper list and said we were the last ones to check in even though we'd done so twice with the person with the PDA. Also, the night we danced, none of the deck captains had any idea what event was coming next, and didn't seem interested in finding out, so it got kind of confusing to figure out when our next heat was coming up. Normally I would just check the monitor in the on-deck area, but on this particular night extra heats were added to the schedule, and the monitor display never seemed to catch up. This is where good on-deck people get really crucial.

[Kitty]

Too expensive!


other than that - great.


If all-weekend pass helps bring in spectators - good idea. But it should be more affordable.

[Alskling]

Sorry, thought of more:

I hate, hate, hate the weekend passes. I never stay for all three days, and really resent being forced to buy tickets I'll never use.

As others have mentioned, airline prices were really high for this comp (about $500-600 per ticket for us, with no direct flight option). Does the Nationals committee take this into consideration at all when selecting locations for Nationals? In my ideal world, we'd strive to have Nationals somewhere near a major transportation hub with lots of cheap flight options.

[ChaChaMama]

THE BEST PARTS:
1) Loved the venue.

2) Loved that the comp ran on time, most of the time...except an hour late during the Friday night session.

3) Love the high caliber judges/workshop coaches.

4) Thought the dance floor was very good quality.

5) Louisville is a Southwest city, so flying from B-more, it was actually a very reasonable flight.

THINGS THAT COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER:
1) Video vendor. I handed in a form, and my partner said it looked like we were taped, but when I went to pay, she said she didn't get us.

2) I agree with the idea that the bleachers could have used some kind of aisles.

3) This is probably an insurmountable problem, but it would have been nice if the block of rooms for USA Dance was larger. We wound up having to stay at a different (though also nice) hotel just b/c we didn't book early enough, and I know lots of other people did as well.

****
One additional suggestion: does USA Dance want more event sponsors? I noticed some of the scholarships for championship level events were only around $100, which I thought was quite low, and some events didn't seem to have any prize money for 2nd or below. Maybe promote the opportunity to be an event sponsor more broadly to the general membership? Perhaps I am wrong, but there are a fair number of us who are...um...old enough to be established in our careers ;), and if approached nicely, we might be willing to kick in.

CCM

[Indiana_Jay]

...there are a fair number of us who are...um...old enough to be established in our careers ;), and if approached nicely, we might be willing to kick in.

I think the word CCM was looking for is "experienced." LOL

[skwiggy]

Agreed with many of the comments already made.

This year was quite expensive, which I think contributed to a seemingly lower attendance in many of the events.

Everything ran smoothly, and the volunteers were all extremely friendly.

The floor quality was great, but was a bit small. I danced off the edge of it multiple times.

I love love love the callback screen. Wish they had this instant gratification at every comp.

I also do like the instant gratification of immediate awards, but the opportunity to step off the floor long enough to grab a sip of water sure would be nice.

The practice floor was well located, but tended to tear up my shoes. I had better luck on the carpet in the ballroom.

[ACtenDance]

Pro. The floor was great. Perfect surface in my opinion.

Pro. Large area near on-deck area for competitors to just sit and prepare that's out of view of spectators and judges.

Pro. Quick recalls. You could get off the floor and immediately know if you made it to the next round. Also, immediate awards. Liked it a lot, and I know a lot of spectators prefered this.

Pro. Hotel ballroom. It's great to be able to get dressed in your room and walk to the ballroom without lugging around all your stuff. (I didn't get to because I booked by hotel too late, but it would have been nice).

Con. As with every competition, most of the judges parked themselves on the same side right next to the head table all weekend.

Con. Bleachers were too hard to get in an out of. Maybe designate walkways using cones.

Suggestions:

For the spectators sake, refer to the events by more than just a heat number. My parents and partner's parents had a hard time at first which event was on the floor. It wouldn't be very hard to put Adult Championship Latin Quarter-Final on the screen in addition to a heat number.
Place a monitor near the practice floor like the one near the on-deck area.
Bring back the bag check.
A video feed projected onto a screen would be really nice like they do at some comps like Hotlanta. Not difficult to do and adds a nice touch for spectators.Will try to brainstorm a little more later. Should be working now...

[star_gazer]

Location - Airfare was outrageous so we drove 3300 miles. Kids were a bundle of knots from riding in the car. It was a bad decision.
Galt House - I was very unhappy with them. I called early and they were sold out but I was able to get a similar room at a much higher price. More rooms should have been blocked out for USA Dance. I also requested that we be near another couple. No one said that was a problem but the rooms ended up 19 floors apart. I called to ask if we could check out at noon but they were unable to accomodate that. The elevators were really annoying. The buffet reminded me of school lunch in elementary school...worst buffet ever! The room service food was not much better. There were live fish swimming IN the bar...maybe it was the martini but I was entertained.
Competition floor - the long side was too short. This was the problem I heard the most about.

[SonInDance]

Thank you for asking about feedback. I feel it is now okay to post my feelings about what transpired during the pre-teen competitions at Nationals. Some of you were there and wondered what was going on. During the pre-teen events, some of the young couples (age 6-11/12 years old) were disqualified and given last place rankings for dancing open choregrapy steps during syllabus events. There were only syllabus events for the pre-teen Nationals. During one heat, the judges had to disqualify the entire dance of Samba because almost all 6 of the couples did some sort of non-syllabus move in their routine. Many of the children and their parents were very upset. How the officials handled this matter was not fair to these young dancers.

Although I think the pre-teen dancers' coaches/dance schools and maybe even their parents should share in the blame for not knowing the syllabus and the rule of dancing strictly syllabus moves only, clearly USADance and their local chapters should carry a bulk of the blame for not educating their youngest members and participating studios that this year's National will be much stricter about the rules. There is a big miscommunication of rules and enforcing of the rule if almost every single dancer on the floor violate your new rule.

These young and talented dancers obviously had danced the same exact routine (with open choregraphy) at 2006 and 2007 local USADance competitions and this year's Regionals. They placed high, if not 1st, in their USADance Regionals with no officials disqualifying them for doing open routines. After doing well at the respective Regionals, the dancers' coaches and their parents probably felt it was worth the time, money, and effort to bring their child to the Nationals.

Then to dance their same routines at the Nationals and be told in front of hundreds of spectators that they will receive last place ranking because their routine is illegal is a bitter pill to swallow for these small kids. There was absolute silence in the ballroom when the first disqualification was called. After the other disqualifications occurred, you can see the huge disappointment, confusion, anger, and outright tears by a couple of the young dancers and their parents. These poor young kids had travelled thousands of miles, their parents had invested thousands of dollars, and the kids probably practiced for hundreds of hours in order to prepare for one of the biggest event of their young life. Then to not be able to dance their routines which they probably have been working on for at least 6 months if not longer is really heart breaking. Can you imagine the sorrow and embarassment of those kids who went back to their dance school and lhad to explain to their fellow classmate that they were disqualified at Nationals for doing the exact same routine that they received 1st place ranking during the Regionals?

I am sorry for this long post but I couldn't contain my silence (which many around me said I should). Rather than just dwelling on what sadly happened, I hope to highlight the miscommunication and disconnect between two major dance organizations in the US and its members (including all the young competitors and their dance schools that are teaching all of these wonderful and talented dancers). I think part of the problem is cultural (you can't miss the discussions and encouragements in Russian around you at Nationals even though the vast majority of the speakers speak perfect English) and what dance means to the young dancers and their school and how it should be taught.

[ChaChaMama]

Location - Airfare was outrageous so we drove 3300 miles. Kids were a bundle of knots from riding in the car. It was a bad decision.
Galt House - I was very unhappy with them. I called early and they were sold out but I was able to get a similar room at a much higher price. More rooms should have been blocked out for USA Dance. I also requested that we be near another couple. No one said that was a problem but the rooms ended up 19 floors apart. I called to ask if we could check out at noon but they were unable to accomodate that. The elevators were really annoying. The buffet reminded me of school lunch in elementary school...worst buffet ever! The room service food was not much better. There were live fish swimming IN the bar...maybe it was the martini but I was entertained.
Competition floor - the long side was too short. This was the problem I heard the most about.

You are making me feel a little better about not being able to get a room there...although interestingly, the elevators at our hotel were slow too. Maybe it's a Louisville thing.

You know where there was excellent (albeit somewhat expensive) food? The Galt House's top restaurant, Rivue, on the 25th floor. Had a great dinner there on Friday night (about $40-50/person for app and entree) and a very good brunch on Sunday (a relative bargain at $21.95/person). Normally I wouldn't necessarily go to such a fancy place, but we were with friends who wanted to go and I'm glad we did.

[Ithink]

What were the officials supposed to do when open choreography was performed in a syllabus event?

I believe it is the coach's fault for not being informed enough about the event their student is entering to give them appropriate choreography. Just because noone was invigilated at Regionals, doesn't mean they wouldn't be invigilated at Nationals, a much more high-profile competition. There was also no costume checks at Nationals - does that mean that I could assume that I could wear my see-through, nude dress at Nationals jsut because noone said anything to me at Regionals when I know full well it's against the rules and expect that I wouldn't be called out on it? And these cultural differences you speak of - what are they? I am Russian and I am not aware of any cultural peculiarity that tells me that I can ignore the rules.

Perhaps the only thing the organizers should have done is discretely tell the competitors why they placed the way they did. Unfortunately, the events in question were straight finals or the officials could have warned the couples after the first round that they were dancing out of syllabus. Unfortunately still, that wouldn't do much as those kids don't know anything but those routines and couldn't have modified them in any way. Again, I blame the coaches. It's awful what happened but let's put the blame where it belongs...

[star_gazer]

Although I think the pre-teen dancers' coaches/dance schools and maybe even their parents should share in the blame for not knowing the syllabus and the rule of dancing strictly syllabus moves only, clearly USADance and their local chapters should carry a bulk of the blame for not educating their youngest members and participating studios that this year's National will be much stricter about the rules. There is a big miscommunication of rules and enforcing of the rule if almost every single dancer on the floor violate your new rule.

How sad and unfortunate. I agree that the rules for nationals should be consistently enforced at regionals. It would be great if everyone could count on their coaches to know the rules but regardless of whether they do or don't...regionals should have the same standards in place.

[waltzgirl]

I don't participate in these events, but from my outsider's perspective, it does seem a bit like "bait and switch" for the same organization to allow one thing at regionals and another at nationals. I realize that it's a volunteer organization and a lot depends on what the organizers of the regional events decide to do. But for nationals, the organization could save a lot of grief for everyone if they included in the registration form a summary of the most important choreography and costume rules and asked for the signature of the dancers (and their parents, if minors) acknowledging that they are aware of the rules.

[mamboqueen]

The problem seems to me a lack of rules and/or enforcement at the other (regional) competitions. How do they allow open choreography in syllabus events? Kind of defeats the whole purpose of having syllabus events at all.

[tanz15]

Of course it's bad and sad for the kids who were disqualified, but I agree with the previous posters who said that it's ultimately the fault of the coaches. Next in line for blame would be any invigilator who let them through previously, but the bottom line is that the rules are there (and easily checked) for anyone who wants to check.

[Cal]

These young and talented dancers obviously had danced the same exact routine (with open choregraphy) at 2006 and 2007 local USADance competitions and this year's Regionals. They placed high, if not 1st, in their USADance Regionals with no officials disqualifying them for doing open routines. After doing well at the respective Regionals, the dancers' coaches and their parents probably felt it was worth the time, money, and effort to bring their child to the Nationals.

Then to dance their same routines at the Nationals and be told in front of hundreds of spectators that they will receive last place ranking because their routine is illegal is a bitter pill to swallow for these small kids. There was absolute silence in the ballroom when the first disqualification was called. After the other disqualifications occurred, you can see the huge disappointment, confusion, anger, and outright tears by a couple of the young dancers and their parents. These poor young kids had travelled thousands of miles, their parents had invested thousands of dollars, and the kids probably practiced for hundreds of hours in order to prepare for one of the biggest event of their young life. Then to not be able to dance their routines which they probably have been working on for at least 6 months if not longer is really heart breaking. Can you imagine the sorrow and embarassment of those kids who went back to their dance school and lhad to explain to their fellow classmate that they were disqualified at Nationals for doing the exact same routine that they received 1st place ranking during the Regionals?


I cannot help but look at the other side of the coin. There are lots of little kids whose parents pay thousands of dollars for lessons and competitions, kids who prepare for months for competitions, who doggedly follow the rules, dance within the syllabus, and do a darn nice job dancing and competing, and who then endure disappointment, anger, confusion, tears and embarrassment when they place behind kids who break the rules. It's a bitter pill for them to swallow, learning that rule-followers aren't always rewarded. And yet, they keep dancing and competing, hoping that, at some point, sometime, something will change. And now, THOSE kids - the few who were not disqualified at Nationals - are probably rejoicing that FINALLY, they are getting a few rewards. And, it's at Nationals!

If the rule-followers have been old enough to face the fact good guys sometimes finish last, then the rule-breakers are probably old enough to learn that breaking rules sometimes has consequences, too.

Sure, it's sad that any kid has to be disappointed at all. But, hey, life happens, and if they can learn how to handle disappointment, it'll help them a lot in the future.

[Laura]

Pro. Hotel ballroom. It's great to be able to get dressed in your room and walk to the ballroom without lugging around all your stuff. (I didn't get to because I booked by hotel too late, but it would have been nice).
I have to laugh every time I read a comment like this one, because on other threads people have indignantly stated that they don't need to have the comp in a hotel, that hotel comps are really only for high-spending Pro/Ams, and so on.

See...a little comfort and convenience is NICE! :) And next year and the year after USA Dance Nationals will have this sort of convenience again :)

[swan]

Last Year's hotel wasn't bad at all & a lot cheaper. I did get dressed & just walked across the street :)

The thing I liked about this year's venue better than SJ was that SJ auditorium was too big (as it's got 2 floors) & the audience would seem sparse; whereas, this year, everyone seemed cozy & made it look like full house. I don't know the count of this year vs. last year's audience attendance, so can't really comment if it's the illusion of a smaller room or what. Entries did go down unfortunately for this year.

[Laura]

I don't participate in these events, but from my outsider's perspective, it does seem a bit like "bait and switch" for the same organization to allow one thing at regionals and another at nationals. I realize that it's a volunteer organization and a lot depends on what the organizers of the regional events decide to do. But for nationals, the organization could save a lot of grief for everyone if they included in the registration form a summary of the most important choreography and costume rules and asked for the signature of the dancers (and their parents, if minors) acknowledging that they are aware of the rules.
I don't know about this year, but last year we had links all over our Nationals web site pointing to the rule book, and even had just the pages on costuming extracted from the rule book so people didn't have to dig through 50 pages of information to find the four pages on costumes. We also had something in the participation release that said that by signing the release the dancers agree to follow all rules in the USA Dance Rule Book. I also had warnings in the General Information and Rules sections of the web site and in the printed information pages that reminded people that the costume rules hand changed and were very restrictive, and that people needed to read and understand the rule book because it was not practical for us to list every single rule in the packet.

And still, people did not follow the rules.

As far as the kid syllabus thing, the rule that prohibited open choreography for pre-teens changed in January of 2007, so it's not like it was suddenly sprung on people at Nationals. (Also, open choreography for pre-teens has not been allowed in NDCA competitions for a number of years, so if Pre-Teens were doing NDCA and USA Dance competitions then they needed syllabus routines anyway.) I also know from direct experience that some coaches do not seem to know or care about the rule book -- it is always the PARENTS and dancers who are checking with me and asking for clarifications and explanations. And when I tell parents that their kids' coach should be the ones helping them, especially with syllabus levels and choreography, the response I get is that the coaches don't know.

Now, why some coaches don't know or care is beyond me, but maybe some PARENTS and KIDS getting mad at the people they are *paying* to train and guide them will start to make a difference, because simply putting out the information and reminding people over and over that they have to be responsible doesn't seem to work.

That all said, I do feel sorry on a personal level for the Pre-Teen kids, as they are just doing what they are told. They wear what they are given, and they dance what they are taught.

So parents, if you're mad, don't get mad at the competition officials. Get the rule book, read it, ask questions, and most of all get your kids' coach to do what the rulebook says.

[TUNes2o]

Thank you for asking about feedback. I feel it is now okay to post my feelings about what transpired during the pre-teen competitions at Nationals. Some of you were there and wondered what was going on. During the pre-teen events, some of the young couples (age 6-11/12 years old) were disqualified and given last place rankings for dancing open choregrapy steps during syllabus events. There were only syllabus events for the pre-teen Nationals. During one heat, the judges had to disqualify the entire dance of Samba because almost all 6 of the couples did some sort of non-syllabus move in their routine. Many of the children and their parents were very upset. How the officials handled this matter was not fair to these young dancers.

Although I think the pre-teen dancers' coaches/dance schools and maybe even their parents should share in the blame for not knowing the syllabus and the rule of dancing strictly syllabus moves only, clearly USADance and their local chapters should carry a bulk of the blame for not educating their youngest members and participating studios that this year's National will be much stricter about the rules. There is a big miscommunication of rules and enforcing of the rule if almost every single dancer on the floor violate your new rule.

These young and talented dancers obviously had danced the same exact routine (with open choregraphy) at 2006 and 2007 local USADance competitions and this year's Regionals. They placed high, if not 1st, in their USADance Regionals with no officials disqualifying them for doing open routines. After doing well at the respective Regionals, the dancers' coaches and their parents probably felt it was worth the time, money, and effort to bring their child to the Nationals.

Then to dance their same routines at the Nationals and be told in front of hundreds of spectators that they will receive last place ranking because their routine is illegal is a bitter pill to swallow for these small kids. There was absolute silence in the ballroom when the first disqualification was called. After the other disqualifications occurred, you can see the huge disappointment, confusion, anger, and outright tears by a couple of the young dancers and their parents. These poor young kids had travelled thousands of miles, their parents had invested thousands of dollars, and the kids probably practiced for hundreds of hours in order to prepare for one of the biggest event of their young life. Then to not be able to dance their routines which they probably have been working on for at least 6 months if not longer is really heart breaking. Can you imagine the sorrow and embarassment of those kids who went back to their dance school and lhad to explain to their fellow classmate that they were disqualified at Nationals for doing the exact same routine that they received 1st place ranking during the Regionals?

I am sorry for this long post but I couldn't contain my silence (which many around me said I should). Rather than just dwelling on what sadly happened, I hope to highlight the miscommunication and disconnect between two major dance organizations in the US and its members (including all the young competitors and their dance schools that are teaching all of these wonderful and talented dancers). I think part of the problem is cultural (you can't miss the discussions and encouragements in Russian around you at Nationals even though the vast majority of the speakers speak perfect English) and what dance means to the young dancers and their school and how it should be taught.

Blame their teachers. The teachers are responsable for their students. If the rule is published you can't blame USA Dance.

I see in many NDCA comps, Open Bronze Waltz or Open Bronze Cha Cha. Guess what? There is no such thing. Bronze is Bronze, Silver is Silver, and Gold is Gold with a certain required step pattern in each. Open material occures after the Gold level, as in Open Gold. Gold Star, Pre Chapionship and Open Amateur events. There is no such thing as Open Bronze, Silver or Gold Waltz., Tango, Foxtrot etc. These open events were made to accomodate the Russian kids, whose teachers do not know the syllabus. So many of the requirements were overlooked to promote the dance and paticipation. Many of the parents think that Bronze, Silver and Gold are the period of time the kids are dancing. ie: Dancing one year, and you are a Bronze student. Dancing 4 years and you are a Gold student. Well that's not it at all, sorry to say

It's time for their teachers to get trained in the syllabus, preferably the ISTD syllabus. So blame the teacher not USA Dance.

[Laura]

Many of the parents think that Bronze, Silver and Gold are the period of time the kids are dancing. ie: Dancing one year, and you are a Bronze student. Dancing 4 years and you are a Gold student. Well that's not it at all, sorry to say.
I just wanted to confirm that I run into this attitude amongst the kids and parents FREQUENTLY. I 'll get emails and phone calls like "my son has a new partner and they've only been dancing together three months, can they do Bronze?" yet it will be a kid I know has been dancing for several years joining up with another kid who has also been dancing for several years and has been doing post-syllabus open choreography and so on. It's to the point that when I get kid syllabus entries in comps I often do a quick search on my ballroom club's results web pages so I can get a picture of what the kids in question have done in the past so that they'll end up in more appropriate categories.

Personally, I don't think I should have to do all that kind of checking (i.e., if people just made an effort to understand and follow the rules), but if I don't then I get a bunch of parents standing in front of me saying "but you let that kid enter Bronze, so why can't my kid do Bronze too?" Or, I get parents standing around being all upset that their kids were disqualified for dancing out-of-syllabus. (So if you've ever wondered how big a job being a Registrar is, it can get to be VERY big depending on how careful and thorough the Registrar is.)

I don't like to see people unhappy, but darn it anarchy is not the answer :)

[White Chacha]

I just wanted to confirm that I run into this attitude amongst the kids and parents FREQUENTLY. I 'll get emails and phone calls like "my son has a new partner and they've only been dancing together three months, can they do Bronze?" yet it will be a kid I know has been dancing for several years joining up with another kid who has also been dancing for several years and has been doing post-syllabus open choreography and so on...

Happens in collegiate comps too.

[avab]

Actually, open bronze, etc., was initiated in this country as part of the whole pro/am experience.

The idea is that I have a student who is, in terms of technique, a bronze level dancer. That student wants to dance open or higher level material, but against other similarly proficient dancers (technical level). Open can mean introductory to higher syllabus steps OR non-syllabus steps; the technical proficiency of the student is indicated by the Bronze, Silver or Gold.

FYI, USA Dance does not offer Open syllabus level competitions. Anything called Bronze is limited to Bronze syllabus steps; Silver is limited to Silver and Bronze; and Gold is limited to Gold, Silver and Bronze.

In this particular case, it is unfortunate both that the couple in question was not pulled aside before disqualification (but that's impossible in a straight final) and that the parent states that the same material was danced at a Regional without comment. In defense of invigilators, with the best of intentions, one's eyes cannot catch every step done by every couple on the floor. It's possible that the invigilator at Regionals simply didn't see the same steps that the invigilator at Nationals saw, not because they were not danced, but because his/her attention was on someone else at the same time in the routine. At Nationals, more than one person watched the offending steps to be sure that there was agreement that the syllabus was not followed, and that it wasn't a case of dancing steps poorly or unintentional trespass into higher level material.

The dancers in question were clearly told that they were not at fault, that their dancing was quite good, and were praised for quickly trying to dance without the offending steps. It was recognized that they danced what they were told to dance by their coaches. And it was explained to the children that the coaches must have misunderstood the restrictions (although more direct and pointed communication to the coaches by the officials who invigilated was offered to the parents in question).

There is no way to make it clear that couples will be disqualified if we don't disqualify those who break the rules. It seems harsh, but perhaps next year the same thing won't happen again.

[DanceSomatics]

All I have to say to the parents (Russian or otherwise). Before you go and spend lots of money research who are your teachers. Most often you are being taught by kids themselves who has never even seen the syllabus book. It has gotten a lot better because of the disqualification, but still.

Do not blame the organization, maybe the vigilant did not caught some things at Regionals, it happens, still does not mean you should not follow the rules. They are quite obvious in every organization. USA dance and NDCA. Both have send out numerous e mails. If you doubt your coaches'' knowledge then go to an actual professional and find out if the routine they are dancing is according to the rules. And I do mean rules. I see some teachers trying to get creative and add some syncopations and turns and all kinds of other things that are just not in the syllabus. Do you homework and stop complaining, tell your teachers, ask them to show you if you they even have the ISTD books.

I am really sorry the kids are disappointed, but the only people to blame are indeed the TEACHERS. Would you go to the doctor who never went to school???? But yet, if dancer dances great that automatically means he she can teach my kid to dance the same way. NO WAY, and definitely not at the beginner level, open is different, cause now the kid can copy.

The RULES are the RULES.

[Mandicraft]

So for the second year in a row I've attended USA Dance Nationals as a Spectator/Videogirl/Cheerleader for friends that were competing and I have enjoyed both trips, but just a couple of comments about this years.

1. A lot of people have complained about the all weekends pass and said that it was expensive, but it was on $30 if you bought it ahead of time, which doesn't seem like much to me. I've attend the National Professional comp many years and $30 is half of the price for one evening session during the middle of the week, so I was thrilled with $30 for the whole time. Although it seemed to be hit or miss whether or not someone was checking passes, there were also times that other doors were left open so you didn't always need a pass to get in.

2. The Bleachers - It was nice to have the raised seating, but I definitely agree that a designated aisle would have been very nice. I was hit or pushed in the back many times by people trying to get out. It wouldn't have been all that bad had people remembered thier manners and apologized or said "excuse me", but apparently a lot of people have forgotten what those words are.

3. Location - I was glad I booked early and quite enjoyed the hotel.

Overall, it was a great comp, well run and some incredible dancing.

[tanz15]

In this particular case, it is unfortunate both that the couple in question was not pulled aside before disqualification (but that's impossible in a straight final) and that the parent states that the same material was danced at a Regional without comment. In defense of invigilators, with the best of intentions, one's eyes cannot catch every step done by every couple on the floor. It's possible that the invigilator at Regionals simply didn't see the same steps that the invigilator at Nationals saw, not because they were not danced, but because his/her attention was on someone else at the same time in the routine. At Nationals, more than one person watched the offending steps to be sure that there was agreement that the syllabus was not followed, and that it wasn't a case of dancing steps poorly or unintentional trespass into higher level material.

I am curious as to how difficult it was to determine these points. In most of the junior and youth instances that I have seen, it was not a question of a few non-syllabus figures inserted into a routine. Usually the entire routine was open from beginning to end. The more subtle infractions that are defended as "creative styling" or novel but legal reconstructive surgery of syllabus figures, tend to appear among non-youth dancers (in my experience).

[madmaximus]

:
...
Although I think the pre-teen dancers' coaches/dance schools and maybe even their parents should share in the blame for not knowing the syllabus and the rule of dancing strictly syllabus moves only, clearly USADance and their local chapters should carry a bulk of the blame for not educating their youngest members and participating studios that this year's National will be much stricter about the rules. There is a big miscommunication of rules and enforcing of the rule if almost every single dancer on the floor violate your new rule.
...



... And now, THOSE kids - the few who were not disqualified at Nationals - are probably rejoicing that FINALLY, they are getting a few rewards. And, it's at Nationals!

If the rule-followers have been old enough to face the fact good guys sometimes finish last, then the rule-breakers are probably old enough to learn that breaking rules sometimes has consequences, too. ...

One marvels at the lessons we teach our young.

Sure, the "stinging rebuke" is painful.
Sure, it cost the parents money and frustration.
Sure, it was humiliating.

BUT STOP FOR A MOMENT. TAKE A DEEP BREATH.

LOOK AT THE WORLD TODAY.

What lessons are we teaching these impressionable minds when we show them our own regard for situational ethics and lack of accountability?

Should we really rationalize why we can violate a rule or law in the name of ignorance?
The "everyone's-doing-it-so-why-don't-we"? or
The lack of enforcement ("well, they didn't check at the regionals last year")?

What does it tell our children about our own sense of responsibility (and our respect for others) when we start blaming someone else for our rationalization?

I think, at the end of the day, one should take it as an IMPORTANT lesson about CHARACTER.

A much more useful thing to impart to a young child (they may actually learn good ethics, respect, and responsibility).


Because you never know, that child might one day become--for example--the president.




m

[swan]

1. A lot of people have complained about the all weekends pass and said that it was expensive, but it was on $30 if you bought it ahead of time,

Excuse me, $30? Competitors paid on time had to pay $130 PER person (so for the couple $260) PLUS $10 per event entered. Do Not tell me that is NOT expensive.

Perhaps it's Spectator's ticket that is $30. That's Great! I was saying that because we're forced to pay all weekend pass that we got to watch the sessions that we did not compete.

[Mandicraft]

Excuse me, $30? Competitors paid on time had to pay $130 PER person (so for the couple $260) PLUS $10 per event entered. Do Not tell me that is NOT expensive.

Perhaps it's Spectator's ticket that is $30. That's Great! I was saying that because we're forced to pay all weekend pass that we got to watch the sessions that we did not compete.


Sorry Swan....I was referring to spectator tickets. I agree that the entry fee for competitors was way too expensive,many people from the team that I support could not go because of that cost even though Louisville is only 7 hours away from them. I thought when people were talking about the Weekend pass they were refering to the all weekend pass for spectators, because it was my understanding that if you paid the competitor fees you got in to the comp for the rest of the weekend for free anyway. Were you forced to pay extra to get into the comp??

I guess I'm miss understanding how the competitor fees have worked in the past.

[Laura]

Were you forced to pay extra to get into the comp??
In a way, yes. See, no matter how many sessions you wanted or needed to dance in, the competitors had to pay $130 per person. (Plus they had to pay $10 per event for the dance entry fee.) That means that even if you only entered one event that only ran in one session (so let's say for instance, Adult Championship Rhythm), you still had to pay the $130 per person. Even if you were only going to drive in the night before, dance your one event, and leave.

We tried an experiment last year in San Jose where competitors had the option of buying weekend passes (at a discount off of individual session ticket prices), or buying just the tickets for the sessions they wanted/needed on an a la carte basis. We also charged a $10 per event entry fee on top of that.

Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages of making all competitors pay for a full weekend pass whether they want one or not is that it makes ticketing and ticket/admission enforcement much more simple. It also makes the revenue stream a bit more predictable. And finally, in some ways it strongly encourages competitors to show up and watch sessions they aren't dancing in because they've had to spend the money on them anyway. The disadvantage is that it costs a lot more for competitors, particularly for competitors who are only coming to dance in one event -- like Swan. She does one style, and can only do Championship level, and can only do one age group, so she ends up paying a LOT more on average per event than someone who can do two age levels, up to four styles, and up to three proficiency levels.

The advantages of going a la carte is that competitors who don't want/need to be in every session can save a lot of money. The disadvantages is that it is more complex and confusing for everyone, especially when it comes to enforcing proper admission to the ballroom.

I personally prefer the a la carte model (with a weekend pass option), simply because I believe that is more fair to the competitors. The people who enter the most events end up spending the most money on tickets and entry fees, and the people who only enter one event aren't stuck paying for a lot of time in the ballroom that they hadn't planned to use. As far as complexity goes...well, that's the organizer's problem. I also believe it is the organizer's job to figure out how to handle things so that they are easier and better for the competitors, even if it means more work behind the scenes (like when stuffing ticket envelopes and doing accounting) for the organizers.

[swan]

I personally prefer the a la carte model (with a weekend pass option)

I think Laura's come up with a great model! This way, for people who are entering multiple events across sessions could opt for all weekend pass; whereas folks like us entering single event can save $ to buy just the session we compete in.

Or make the all weekend pass more affordable - why can't we pay $30 as well? :) Or $130 for the couple, not per person. This way, it encourages all of us to support each other by attending more sessions and creating a better atmosphere for all the competitors.

The $135+/person (as you wouldn't pay just $130 w/o entering any event:) So it's a minimum of $135 per person) was really too steep for most people.

[Mandicraft]

Thank you for the explaination Laura and sorry if I upset you Swan!

[swan]

That's ok. You only knew about the spectator's pass and thought it was what we're referring to. Now that I know spectator only had to pay $30 for all weekend pass, hmm, I guess now I AM "upset" :) We're there sweating off providing entertainment (ok, perhaps to some it was torture :)) & had to pay that much. LOL!

[Laura]

I think Laura's come up with a great model!
Well, NorCal can't take the credit for it -- this is how every NDCA comp I've ever been to does it.

[tbrennen]

Just a quick note on the floor size for Louisville this year and San Jose last year. I understand that the Louisville floor was measured with a measuring tape and was 44 by 72 feet. I arranged for the floor in San Jose and it was 44 by 79 feet. And, yes, I ran off the end of the floor as well. I think so many of us did that because the floor was quite nice to dance on.

I do have one request for the future. Suspend permanently any dancer who puts a puddle of oil on the floor/carpet in the on-deck area. I stepped in someone's oil and had to do a series of hops at the height of my first 1/2 natural. In retrospect, I wish I could have seen myself since it was probably pretty funny. However, putting oil in a location where dancers may inadvertently step in it is a big no-no. (I could, of course, "accidentally" drop an open container of baby powder in the on-deck area right before the open Latin but I used to do Latin and have too much empathy.) Perhaps USA Dance can come up with some rule regarding the use of shoe/floor modifiers?

[star_gazer]

Summarizing, the things that would make me really happy at next nationals:
1) a la carte pricing
2) convenient location - Baltimore is convenient
3) bigger competition floor PLEASE
4) could USA Dance contract with an MD or a pharmacist to help us decipher drug regs (are Propel, Red Bull, Gu, EmergenC and/or Gatorade OK?)
5) block off adequate rooms at a reasonable price
6) info on closest grocery store
7) inservice/lecture/warning by MC regarding floorcraft prior to standard rounds

[Joe]

I could, of course, "accidentally" drop an open container of baby powder in the on-deck area right before the open Latin but I used to do Latin and have too much empathy.
I don't... :twisted:

But odds are it was the Youth Latin people, not the Adults, since IIRC they were in our session.

[Ithink]

Odds are it was. But since, as pre-teens they were apparently never taught how to act responsibly, respectfully and follow the rules, this doesn't surprise me at all. Maybe they can blame the USA Dance officials for providing such a slippery floor...

[SonInDance]

Thank you all for your honest comments and I hope my reply will not inflame others to think that all pre-teens or young competitors and their parents and their coaches are bad eggs, out to beat the system, or don't belong in the ballroom dance community. I don't think any parent or coach would knowingly and intentional set a kid up for failure or public censure.

Yes, the rule is the rule. But the status quo up until the National was that many pre-teen kids were dancing open moves in parts of their routine at local chapter competitions and regionals despite this new rule in 2007. The disqualification occurred for one couple but most of the other pre-teens dancing after and the disqualified couple were madly scrambling to change their routines before the heats were called. Most of the couples were from different schools and from different parts of the country. So it seems to be not an isolated miscommunication of the rules or an intent to by one couple to "break the rules". Even the Regional was confusing for pre-teens because there were syllabus events as well as novice, pre-champ & championship (but the new rule said you can only do syllabus steps even in championship). Well then should you enter as Gold syllabus or championship and what is the difference? As far as I can tell at the Regional, most of the younger dancers (around 9 and under) enter syllabus heats and danced simplified routines with some open moves while the older pre-teens (11 and under) did more complex routines with more open choregraphy. Can you imagine the surprise and upset of the kids when the same routines danced at a Regional two months ago that placed them 1st would be the routines that disqualifed them at Nationals?

Another example as a previous poster stated is the problem of the costume restrictions for pre-teens. USADANCE has had the costume restriction for over one (maybe even two). But every single competition, there are questions about what can be worn and what can't. All the pre-teen kids that come with non-conforming outfits are not automatically disqualified. Many are warned that this competition would be last that they can wear it or to go change into something that will sort of conform. Even with the mandatory costume check at Nationals, there were dance outfits on kids that did not 100% follow the rules because maybe it was the only outfit they brought to Nationals or the costume checkers were unclear themselves what the specific rules were. Many of you posters that argue "the rule is the rule" would have insisted that all those kids be disqualified. I think some leniency would be more appropriate because the kids themselves don't know the new rule. Parents try but some rules are worded such that you need an attorney to figure out.

I guess what I am saying is that with new severely restrictive rules, there are bound to be confusion, misunderstandings, and different enforcement of the rules. I don't think it is unfair to hold the makers of these new rules to a standard of making efforts so that all the affective members clearly understand what the rules are and what the consequences of violating the rules are. This takes time, look at the costume restriction, but to punish the kids with disqualification without warning is sort of harsh. This is only my opinion.

I apologize to the original poster who only wanted different feedback about everyone's experience at National and didn't mean for this thread to get a little negative. I was posting my experience at Nationals and the limited incident that occurred. To be honest, my little guy had a great time. He wrote in his journal that going to Nationals was a fun vacation (as fun as watching TV).:rolleyes:

[star_gazer]

I was posting my experience at Nationals and the limited incident that occurred. To be honest, my little guy had a great time. He wrote in his journal that going to Nationals was a fun vacation (as fun as watching TV).:rolleyes:Ballroom seems to take all of life's little lessons and put them in a pressure cooker on high. As parents we have endless opprtunities to model how to appropriately handle these situations. I have not always done a very good job. I periodically lose it and start ranting about some crazy thing. But if your son had a good time you must have handled the stress pretty well!!

[samina]

There is no such thing as Open Bronze, Silver or Gold Waltz., Tango, Foxtrot etc.

there are open bronze & open silver categories at nationals for single-dance pro-am events. this seems technically possible to me... wouldn't open bronze simply allow the incorporation of bronze figures from other dances?

[samina]

Actually, open bronze, etc., was initiated in this country as part of the whole pro/am experience.

The idea is that I have a student who is, in terms of technique, a bronze level dancer. That student wants to dance open or higher level material, but against other similarly proficient dancers (technical level). Open can mean introductory to higher syllabus steps OR non-syllabus steps; the technical proficiency of the student is indicated by the Bronze, Silver or Gold.

this makes sense. thanks for the clarification... i'd never seen open bronze/silver before in a comp...

[Joe]

These rules have been in place for quite some time now, both for costumes and dancing out of catgeory. Whether or not the rules are consistently enforced, there's little excuse for not knowing what they are.

[cantskiforlife]

Another example as a previous poster stated is the problem of the costume restrictions for pre-teens. USADANCE has had the costume restriction for over one (maybe even two). But every single competition, there are questions about what can be worn and what can't. All the pre-teen kids that come with non-conforming outfits are not automatically disqualified. Many are warned that this competition would be last that they can wear it or to go change into something that will sort of conform. Even with the mandatory costume check at Nationals, there were dance outfits on kids that did not 100% follow the rules because maybe it was the only outfit they brought to Nationals or the costume checkers were unclear themselves what the specific rules were. Many of you posters that argue "the rule is the rule" would have insisted that all those kids be disqualified. I think some leniency would be more appropriate because the kids themselves don't know the new rule. Parents try but some rules are worded such that you need an attorney to figure out.

I guess what I am saying is that with new severely restrictive rules, there are bound to be confusion, misunderstandings, and different enforcement of the rules. I don't think it is unfair to hold the makers of these new rules to a standard of making efforts so that all the affective members clearly understand what the rules are and what the consequences of violating the rules are. This takes time, look at the costume restriction, but to punish the kids with disqualification without warning is sort of harsh. This is only my opinion.

I have been to many comps where the MC has pulled kids out of a heat before they even have a chance to dance due to their outfits. Most of these kids have pants that are obviously latin pants or shirts that are obviously custom. These items are obviously against the rules and I am glad that the MC did this. In the cases I am thinking of the MC gave them until the last heat to find a proper outfit.

In regards to warnings and DQ's. The judges are not required to give any warnings whatsoever. It is obviously better to assume that someone didn't know a rule and give them a change to redeem themselves...... But I also know many many dancers who blatantly disregard the rules (syllabus steps, etc...) or have no desire to learn them (ignorance). These kids should definitely be DQ'ed.

I do agree though that the rules could be simplified and cleaned up a TON! Especially the stupid drug rules as someone mentioned earlier.... I mean seriously, what about gatorade and red bull????

could USA Dance contract with an MD or a pharmacist to help us decipher drug regs (are Propel, Red Bull, Gu, EmergenC and/or Gatorade OK?)

[Chris Stratton]

Most of these kids have pants that are obviously latin pants or shirts that are obviously custom. These items are obviously against the rules

Are you sure?

Can you locate an actual rule that bans tailored latin pants?

I can find one mention of "ready to wear" for a shirt, but if there's a comparable restriction on the pants I'm missing it.

In regards to warnings and DQ's. The judges are not required to give any warnings whatsoever.

Actually, at USA dance competitions it would appear that they are required to order the kids to change before they can disqualify them:

3.10.3. SANCTIONS
If a couple is not dressed in accordance with this Dress Code and receives a warning from the Chairman
of adjudicators, they have to comply with the regulation or face IMMEDIATE disqualification BY
THE CHAIRMAN. The USA DanceSport Council can impose additional sanctions including
suspension from competitions.

(You might be confusing the warnings issue with syllabus infractions in the final round. It's often thought that you can't be disqualified without being warned; but in fact you can - if the infraction is first officially noticed in the final, it's a disqualification, even if you'd done the same thing in earlier rounds without receiving official notice)

[cantskiforlife]

Are you sure?

Can you locate an actual rule that bans tailored latin pants?

I can find one mention of "ready to wear" for a shirt, but if there's a comparable restriction on the pants I'm missing it.

I was unable to find it in the rule books, but I remember it clearly from one of the college New England comps this past year. Perhaps it was at harvard beginners - that would explain a lot. :)

(You might be confusing the warnings issue with syllabus infractions in the final round. It's often thought that you can't be disqualified without being warned; but in fact you can - if the infraction is first officially noticed in the final, it's a disqualification, even if you'd done the same thing in earlier rounds without receiving official notice)

Yep.

[saludas]

I find it disingenuous to blame anyone in the competition organization for the failings of the parents, coaches, or the dancers themselves. The rulebook is online 24/7 and has simple rules for what can or cannot be danced in closed categories and what can be worn; a permanent costume check station was graciously in place at the Nationals (you needed to check your costumes against THOSE rules before you could even sign in) and parents had 8 months to understand what was changed in the rules about costumes since last year.

I for one would have been very happy to enter a competition that was invigilated so well - if as a dancer I was doing the right choreography, I'd be happy being protected from the folks who 'bend' and flaunt the rules to suit themselves.

Syllabus infractions? No excuse - the coach who choreographed the syllabus routine is the one to blame.

Parenting, by the way, is the job of the parent. The screaming kid in a restaurant is a parenting problem, not a customer problem. Breeders have signed on to do the JOB of parenting for 16-18 years, and it's not fair to expect everyone around them to give up their rights simply because the parent is too lazy, tired, or indignant.

[Joe]

Amen, brother!

[fascination]

These rules have been in place for quite some time now, both for costumes and dancing out of catgeory. Whether or not the rules are consistently enforced, there's little excuse for not knowing what they are.yes...our bronze waltz changed immediately when new rules came out ...shrug....it's just not going to fly at places like ohio and natinals...why bother?

[Chris Stratton]

I was unable to find it in the rule books, but I remember it clearly from one of the college New England comps this past year. Perhaps it was at harvard beginners - that would explain a lot. :)

Well, yes, the NE college comps each operate under their own unique rules rather than the USA Dance or NDCA ones. That's been an important means of experimenting to see what does and doesn't work.

[Chris Stratton]

Sounds like the pre-teen events might work better if the actual titles on the entry form and program were changed to

(Age Group) Closed Syllabus (Pre-) Championship.

At least that would be a lot less ambigous than the far-from-clear reference buried in the rulebook (my initial reading of which was that no non-syllabus events were to be offered - leading to the conclusion that if an "obviously open" event appears on the form, then it's an offering beyond the rulebook ones, and would still be the open event you'd expect from it's name. Only by paying extreme attention to the usage of "event" vs "level" on that page does the intended meaning become clear)

[Borbala_Bunnett]

All,

Thank you VERY MUCH for your time and responses - the feedback is very helpful. I passed the link on to a key member of next year's Nationals' organizaing committee, so we'll see how much of what we heard can we keep (good things) and change (not so good things) for next year.

Thank you for your ongoing support of USA Dance,

Take care,

Borbala

[lmcardle]

Here are just a couple of suggestions from my experience at Nationals:

1. Towels for competitors in the staging area near the water for sweat. This was a nice touch at the Emerald Ball, and just a suggestion if you're able to pull it off for the next Nationals.
2. Better coordination in the staging area. This seemed to either be pretty good, or pretty confusing at times. There were a couple times when everyone was brought out to the floor, but a couple had not checked in or were out of order and it had to be figured out after the couples were already out there. Better to have this done ahead of time and track down the couples before introducting the event.
3. Social dances between events. Any chance of adding social dances between events periodically. While watching Latin, I would need to periodically need to stretch from sitting, but would miss events by leaving. There was a ton of events, and maybe this just isn't possible, but it would be nice if it were.

Everything else I had has already been said in previous messages. All in all a great event and everyone was quite helpful, especially Faline :)

Thanks,

LM

[Joe]

IMO there wasn't really any time for general dancing between events. The sked was pretty packed. You'd either have to eliminate events or stretch things out by another day or half-day.

[Laura]

Sounds like the pre-teen events might work better if the actual titles on the entry form and program were changed to

(Age Group) Closed Syllabus (Pre-) Championship.
At Nationals this year events with such names were NOT offered. The Pre-teen Bronze/Silver/Gold Syllabus events were offered, but not Pre-Teen Novice/Pre-Champ/Champ.

[Laura]

IMO there wasn't really any time for general dancing between events. The sked was pretty packed. You'd either have to eliminate events or stretch things out by another day or half-day.
Exactly. The Schedule for Nationals has been approximately the same for the past few years,. and this year, due to the creation of Senior III, even *more* events had to be packed into the same three-day period.

[samina]

Breeders have signed on to do the JOB of parenting for 16-18 years....

interesting way of putting it

[madmaximus]

Breeders have signed on to do the JOB of parenting for 16-18 years....
interesting way of putting it

Interesting?

Truly, you're far too generous Samina.

Try this on for size: condescending, insulting, insensitive, stupid, ill-informed, and asinine!!!

There's a whole host of adjectives, but...
in jest or otherwise, statements like those do nothing but belie the quality, nature, and mindset of the person.






m

[Chris Stratton]

Even the Regional was confusing for pre-teens because there were syllabus events as well as novice, pre-champ & championship (but the new rule said you can only do syllabus steps even in championship). Well then should you enter as Gold syllabus or championship and what is the difference?

As Laura has pointed out, there were no Pre-champ or Champ pre-teen events held at nationals.

When the actual title of the event is {Bronze, Silver, Gold} it's pretty clear what the rules are.

[fascination]

Interesting?

Truly, you're far too generous Samina.

Try this on for size: condescending, insulting, insensitive, stupid, ill-informed, and asinine!!!

There's a whole host of adjectives, but...
in jest or otherwise, statements like those do nothing but belie the quality, nature, and mindset of the person.






mam fairly certain they weren't in jest....you have your dander up today eh?...hug

[madmaximus]

am fairly certain they weren't in jest....you have your dander up today eh?...hug

Yeah Fasc., uncharacteristic for things to get to me.

Sorry.




m

[fascination]

meh...still think you're pretty impressive

[samina]

the term reminds me of a book i read years ago... the handmaid's tale, possibly? i can't think of a way to use the term WRT humans without intended insult on some level... would take quite the gentle comedian to find a palatable delivery.

[fascination]

nationals anyone?

[saludas]

interesting way of putting it

Yeah, but I guess the humor and the clever literary reference was lost on some folks. Hey, it was a joke...

[mamboqueen]

I think it was lost on everyone.

[saludas]

I think it was lost on everyone.


Yeah, but the thought was right, but the 'breeder' part was over the heads. I'll dig up a link for you to refer to later, I suppose.

FYI, I got a few IMs applauding the comments about parents being responsible for bad manners of their kids...

[fascination]

NATIONALS ANYONE?????...moving right along

[mamboqueen]

FYI, I got a few IMs applauding the comments about parents being responsible for bad manners of their kids...

That's good. People shouldn't be afraid to confine it to an IM (or PM). I think most reasonable people would agree on that point.

[Laura]

NATIONALS ANYONE?????...moving right along

Sure, here's one I got from word of mouth: they had a screen displaying what heat number was on the floor, but it was just the heat number and not the name of the event. It would be even more helpful for people if the name of the event were also displayed.

Note that O2CM already has the capability of doing this (that's what we had on the screen in the practice area at 2006 Nationals), although the format might not be ideal at this moment in time -- what they had in Louisville was a laptop with Power Point on it manned by a volunteer who just clicked "next" as the events went off and on the floor. This was a good idea -- my point is that it could just be taken further next time around.

So the general idea is: YES to anything that makes what's going on clearer to both the competitors and the spectators!

[Chris Stratton]

Good general point Laura.

Nobody knows what the event numbers translate to.

Nor does anyone other than a couple themselves know what couple numbers translate to. Just about every competition there's an announcement seeking a couple apparently not in the ballroom - but by number only. If they used the name, someone else who might have seen them or know that they aren't coming could reply, or run to get them.

[Laura]

If they used the name, someone else who might have seen them or know that they aren't coming could respond.
One of the nice things about O2CM is that the MC can see the number and name of the missing couple, and so have the ability to page by name and number. I don't know if the PDA-based version of CompManager does this or not, as I've never used it or seen it used. I definitely agree that if the name is there, the MC should use it!

[Joe]

I think the heat screen would need to be a little larger to show the event name as well.

"Youth Championship Standard" takes up a lot of space in a readable size. :) Unless you just abbreviate to "YCSt" or something, but then the casual- and non-ballroomers in the room would have no clue.

[Laura]

Youth Champ Standard?
Yth Champ Standard?

This issue can be solved with use of the right kind of projector and screen :)

[Chris Stratton]

Compngr uses PI-PII-JI-JII-Y-A-SI-SII etc for age groups.

Levels are small if you use "Champ" and "PreC"

Styles can be shortened to "Std, Lat, Sm, Rm"

"JII Champ Std" is really not very long... about as long as 3 couple numbers.

[Indiana_Jay]

Sure, here's one I got from word of mouth: they had a screen displaying what heat number was on the floor, but it was just the heat number and not the name of the event. It would be even more helpful for people if the name of the event were also displayed.

I didn't have any trouble understanding the heat numbers, but then I always had the program handy. I appreciated how BIG the heat numbers were on the screen and how the number was therefore easy to read anywhere in the room. I imagine that the number would have to be smaller if the screen were to display a text description of the heat as well (even an abbreviated description would require a small number).

[Laura]

There are all sizes of screens...I didn't see what was at Nationals this year. Was it just a computer screen? Was it a small projector screen, like teachers used to pull down from a blackboard to show film strips (god I'm old), was it a home-movie-theater sized screen? Remember, the exact hardware used in Louisville might not be used next year.

I mean really, a 56" projection screen could have the heat number in foot-high numbers, and the heat name in 8" high letters.....

My point in all this wasn't about the size of the equipment, but about the idea that it would be nice to provide some sort of combination of event name and number rather than just number. And if the idea is determined to be important enough to adopt, then the size of the projection screen and the data shown on it can be worried about.

[Chris Stratton]

I didn't have any trouble understanding the heat numbers, but then I always had the program handy.

I don't have a program-sized pocket in my tailsuit, do you?

[Indiana_Jay]

There are all sizes of screens...I didn't see what was at Nationals this year. Was it just a computer screen? Was it a small projector screen, like teachers used to pull down from a blackboard to show film strips (god I'm old), was it a home-movie-theater sized screen? Remember, the exact hardware used in Louisville might not be used next year.

I mean really, a 56" projection screen could have the heat number in foot-high numbers, and the heat name in 8" high letters.....

My point in all this wasn't about the size of the equipment, but about the idea that it would be nice to provide some sort of combination of event name and number rather than just number. And if the idea is determined to be important enough to adopt, then the size of the projection screen and the data shown on it can be worried about.

The screen used in Louisville looked to me to be a fairly large flat-panel monitor, probably of at least 19" diagonal. It sat on the Judge's dais where it did a fine job of displaying heat numbers throughout the room. You can get a glimpse of it in the backgrounds of some of my photos from the event, (this one, for example (http://www.dance-forums.com/album/data/2/medium/IMG_1816_1.JPG)). Given the configuration of that particular room, a projector might have been more difficult to set up.

I agree that as long as organizers are able to provide equipment that makes the data that visible anywhere in the room, there'd be no reason not to include additional data.