Costume question

[icequeen]

I've looked through some old threads, and am still not sure about this one. For NDCA-sanctioned comps at syllabus level, what are the costume restrictions? Can I wear a plain, unadorned (no stones) costume that is designed for ballroom (i.e. with chiffon skirt and some semblance of floats)? I found a few online that are a pretty good price, like this one:



Would something like this be allowed? Is it worth the investment, or should I just wear a practice skirt and blouse?

Thanks everyone!

[mamboqueen]

I've looked through some old threads, and am still not sure about this one. For NDCA-sanctioned comps at syllabus level, what are the costume restrictions? Can I wear a plain, unadorned (no stones) costume that is designed for ballroom (i.e. with chiffon skirt and some semblance of floats)? I found a few online that are a pretty good price, like this one:



Would something like this be allowed? Is it worth the investment, or should I just wear a practice skirt and blouse?

Thanks everyone!

What syllabus level would you be doing? I think you may be limited in newcomer's, but beyond that, this should be fine. I personally wouldn't wear a practice skirt and a blouse beyond newcomers, or maybe pre-bronze. You should check the website for the comp, too, and see if they have any restrictions.

[Chris Stratton]

There's a major difference between NDCA pro/am rules and NDCA amateur rules...

[icequeen]

Hmm, the website for the comp simply says:
"The appropriate dress code for all Divisions and Standards as is outlined and stated in the NDCA Rule Book (http://www.ndca.org/info.cfm?showsection=info&showsubsection=rules&cfid=12319099&cftoken=54056047)".

The section in the NDCA book read:
37 2. Junior, Youth and Adult.
38 a. Definition of “Syllabus Dress”.
39 (1) Gentlemen. Standard and Smooth Divisions: Dress pants, plain shirt and tie, and optional
40 cummerbund or vest or black sweater or tuxedo. No tail suits. Latin and Rhythm Divisions:
41 Dress pants, plain or ruffled shirt, optional tie and or vest.
42 (2) Ladies. Standard and Smooth Divisions: Cocktail dress without excessive adornment. No
43 ball gowns. Latin and Rhythm Divisions: Leotards and wrap skirts or party/cocktail dresses
44 without excessive adornment.

What on earth is no excessive adornment? Do you a dress like this would qualify?

[icequeen]

sorry, forgot to mention that the same oufit would ideally be one that works for both pro-am and amateur bronze/silver.

[samina]

that dress is pretty... and i think it would work for both pro-am & amateur syllabus, because it has no glitz to it. although be forewarned... pro-am is full of glitz. :)

[mamboqueen]

that dress is pretty... and i think it would work for both pro-am & amateur syllabus, because it has no glitz to it. although be forewarned... pro-am is full of glitz. :)

ya think?? *LOL*

[waltzgirl]

Get some "excessively decorated" jewelry to wear for the pro-am heats!

[Laura]

For NDCA-sanctioned comps at syllabus level, what are the costume restrictions?
Are you dancing in Pro/Am, or in an Amateur-only event? Because the rules differ. Please note that Student/Student events that are run as part of the rest of the Pro/Am events are run under Pro/Am rules, which means that costumes are allowed in Syllabus. Yay, another level of confusion!

To me, the dress you showed is simply an unstoned costume, it looks just like a ballgown that an "open" level competitor would wear except it has no stones on it. Therefore, I'd be concerned about it in a costume-restricted event such as an Amateur Closed Syllabus competition.

If you really like that dress, then you could get one like it with the following modifications so that it could not be mistaken for a costume:

1) ditch all floats -- nothing from arm to arm, no fluffy ruffle thing coming down the back

2) wear regular jewelry rather than the fabric neck cuff

3) have the top layer of the skirt be solid fabric, rather than with the chiffon inserts. Chiffon inserts scream "costume."

The color, neckline, and shoulder cut-outs are all very nice and look like "fashion" rather than "ballroom costume" to me. The nice thing about having a single solid-colored dress like this for Syllabus is that it would be legal for both USA Dance and NDCA Amateur competitions. And, if you decide you want to move up to costumed events you can easily add floats to the neck and arms and stone everything to get more use out of the dress.

If you're doing Pro/Am, then that dress with the modifications I mentioned would be more than fine for Newcomer, but you'll need an actual ballgown for Bronze on up. Everyone wears costumes in Pro/Am, sometimes with humorous results :) (Nothing like seeing a zillion dollar gown on someone so new that they're just doing little steps in Bronze, but whatever, keeps all the gown makers in business :) :) )

[Another Elizabeth]

Actually, I think you could get away with the chiffon inserts if you removed the floats and the choker thingy. It shouldn't be hard to get the floats designed to be removable, and the choker with the fluffy thing down the back is already a separate piece.

[chocolatchica]

Wow! What a beautiful dress! Even wihout any stonning it is just gorgeous. Hopefully its as nice in person as it is when you get it (refer to thread about happychacha). Good luck with that! I really hope they let you wear it

[icequeen]

Are you dancing in Pro/Am, or in an Amateur-only event? Because the rules differ. Please note that Student/Student events that are run as part of the rest of the Pro/Am events are run under Pro/Am rules, which means that costumes are allowed in Syllabus. Yay, another level of confusion!

To me, the dress you showed is simply an unstoned costume, it looks just like a ballgown that an "open" level competitor would wear except it has no stones on it. Therefore, I'd be concerned about it in a costume-restricted event such as an Amateur Closed Syllabus competition.

If you really like that dress, then you could get one like it with the following modifications so that it could not be mistaken for a costume:

1) ditch all floats -- nothing from arm to arm, no fluffy ruffle thing coming down the back

2) wear regular jewelry rather than the fabric neck cuff

3) have the top layer of the skirt be solid fabric, rather than with the chiffon inserts. Chiffon inserts scream "costume."

The color, neckline, and shoulder cut-outs are all very nice and look like "fashion" rather than "ballroom costume" to me. The nice thing about having a single solid-colored dress like this for Syllabus is that it would be legal for both USA Dance and NDCA Amateur competitions. And, if you decide you want to move up to costumed events you can easily add floats to the neck and arms and stone everything to get more use out of the dress.


Help me understand: so NDCA would not allow anything that looks like costumes? Is that what they mean by excessive adornment? I kind of like the dress with the floats. ;) Do you think if I danced with the dress as it is that I would be disqualified? Has this happened to any of you before?

[chocolatchica]

You should ask an experianced judge maybe in your area. If none then get a phone number for one and maybe ask. Sounds odd but I would do it because that dress is just awesome and there are no rhinestones on it. I dont see why you couldnt use it. It also doesnt have feather or sequence or anything else they describe as adornment. Bceuase to be honest anything can "look" like a costume of you think about it.

[waltzgirl]

I'm no expert on costumes, but the rules plainly say "no ballgowns." IMO, floats make it a ballgown.

[chocolatchica]

Oh yeah I guess your right. I guess I'm thinking in latin standards. Because you can basically get a normal skirt and cute top and stone that thing and compete in prof latin division (I've seen it done well before). Sorry guess it different. I guess no one really wears gowns like that out so it would be considered a costume. Darn! Maybe there is a loophole somewhere in the rules?? :-)

[Laura]

Help me understand: so NDCA would not allow anything that looks like costumes?
It depends on the event you are entering. Assuming that you are entering a regular amateur (not student/student) Syllabus event in the NDCA, you can't wear a costume. The dress you showed is a costume -- the floats and the neck choker, as well as the pointed sleeves ending in finger loops and the chiffon inserts, make it look like a costume.

A Judge I know who often acts as Chairman and/or costume enforcer at both NDCA and USA Dance comps sometimes uses this rule of thumb in NDCA events: would you wear that dress to someplace that wasn't a ballroom dance competition?

Surely someone wouldn't go to the opera or out to dinner in a dress with floats running from arm to arm and attached to the waistline above the butt.

The rule you quoted clearly says "Ladies. Standard and Smooth Divisions: Cocktail dress without excessive adornment. No ball gowns." The dress you showed is NOT a cocktail dress by any stretch of the imagination. It is an undecorated ballgown.

Is that what they mean by excessive adornment?
Excessive adornment also refers to tons of stones and beads, fringe, pin on flowers, etc etc. The intent is to put a dividing line between something festive that one would wear to a special event like a dinner dance or a cocktail party or the theater, and something that is a costume. It's tricky and a grey area. Welcome to the wonderful world of costume drama.

Do you think if I danced with the dress as it is that I would be disqualified?
It depends upon who is the Chairman of Judges, because a few of them frankly don't care and don't bother to look too closely at the costume rules. But if you were dancing in a comp that my friend who I referred to above was the Chairman of, she would make you change. And if you didn't have anything you could change into, she would make you put a sweater or a wrap or a jacket on over your dress. I've seen her do it. You'd get a warning and a request to change first, and if you didn't then you'd be disqualified in later rounds. If your event was a straight final and no one caught you until you went on to the floor, then it's the Chairman's discretion as to if you are disqualified or not. The deck captains at many competitions I go to also know the costume rules, and will fetch the chairman or costume police as people are lining up so they can check on any questionable outfits.

It's better to play it safe and keep it SIMPLE. I agree with Elizabeth that you could probably get away with the chiffon godets in the skirt if you didn't have the floats or the neck thing, but to me it's a fine line.

[waltzgirl]

Just to make things more complicated, AFAIK, "cocktail dress" means a short, dressy dress. So is the specification of cocktail dress for smooth and standard supposed to mean women shouldn't wear long skirts?

[Laura]

While you are correct going by today's fashion standards, waltzgirl, that is not the intent. One can and should wear longer fuller skirts for Syllabus Standard and Smooth.

I don't know how long ago the NDCA rules were written, but at one point what made a cocktail dress a cocktail dress was the fact that it was made of dressier fabrics and showed a little more skin than a day dress, but wasn't considered as formal as a floor-length dress.

[Joe]

The cocktail dresses thing has been around for at least the dozen years I've been dancing. :)

[Chris Stratton]

I'm no expert on costumes, but the rules plainly say "no ballgowns." IMO, floats make it a ballgown.

Traditionally it was feather or stones that made it a ballgown.

That said, costume rules at NDCA comps can be a bit flexible in practice. You won't really know what you can get away with until you show up... so if you want to be the one defining the limit, removable floats may be the way to go.

[Larinda McRaven]

One chairman of jodges for the Collegiate stuff around here has a simple rule for costume vs cocktail dress. It better have a department store tag inside it.

[Chris Stratton]

One chairman of jodges for the Collegiate stuff around here has a simple rule for costume vs cocktail dress. It better have a department store tag inside it.

Which shows a remarkable degree of ignorance for general application, as few department-store sourced items have full enough skirts to be functionally suitable for standard or smooth. However, in the context of Boston-area collegiate competitions, it's usually only the newcomer and in rare cases bronze divisions so restricted, so the issue may be less apparent in the smaller movements there than it would be for silver or gold, where purpose-made dancewear is the norm in costume-restricted events.