What happened to floor craft?

[Old Dancer]

I must say I was appalled in watching the US National Amateur Standard Championship last week. I'm not here to say that I'm the best dancer or have the best floor craft. However, I could not believe how these young dancers throw themselves forward (and backwards and sideways) across the line of dance on the wrong side of the floor without regards to their competitors. Is this deliberate? Several times it did look as if it was. Is this what their coaches are telling them to do, to "shake up" their competitors? Or is it just that the only thing they can do on the dance floor is their choreography no matter how small the floor is or if there happens to be another couple in their way?

I grew up in Europe and was a youth champion in my country (many, many years ago) representing it in several international competitions. I can remember my coach being furious with me if he saw me doing anything like this. I've seen many European competitions since and don't see this bad floor craft there. Maybe this is one of the reasons our couples aren't as strong internationally, even though we have some of the best coaches in the world, and no shortage of talented dancers.

Do the American judges care? It doesn't seem so. Couples with great floor craft trying to get out of the way of the crazy maniac dancers did not make the final. Yes, the dancer that can keep holding his top line while he plows forward seems to get the judges' marks.

Is this where we really want to go with this sport, why don't we just take up boxing instead?

[Laura]

There have been several complaints that the floor at Nationals was too small, which could be a strongly contributing factor. I've only seen one European competition this year (Blackpool), and there was some pretty ratty floorcraft in some of the first few rounds there too, but I really haven't seen enough to make a comparison between what dancers do in the US versus in Europe.

Interesting points you raise, that's for sure! Welcome to Dance Forums!

[fascination]

welcome

[White Chacha]

Perhaps the ever increasing emphasis on athleticism is at odds with the control, discretion, and planning needed to navigate the floor?

[Laura]

Perhaps that, and I'm also wondering if the trend toward younger and younger dancers at higher and higher levels has something to do with it, combined with the fact that younger people tend to think they are invincible, and so the younger ones just don't see the need to take care -- it just doesn't cross their mind. People will only take care if their coaches and the judges make it a point to comment negatively on poor floorcraft.

[star_gazer]

I was videoing the QF and the crashes got so bad I just turned the camera off. I don't know if it was the size of the floor or what but it really appeared worse than usual. However...there were at least two couples in the final with very, very good floorcraft.

[madmaximus]

I recently caught an Adult standard competition--large floor, but populated by a large contingent of very aggressive dancers--where floorcraft was simply absent.

Except for one. The couple brilliantly managed to stay away from the fray--obviously changing their routine in real-time very frequently.
It seemed that the younger dancers consistently gunned for the couple, but they managed to escape gracefully.

They were the epitome of grace and maturity.

They also didn't make it out of the first round.

While the others, who were clearly plowing through the rest of the field without much regard or courtesy, made it through.


Disgusting? Yes.
Reality? Yep.
Ugly? Oh yeah.

Courtesy? None whatsoever.


I think good floorcraft should be rewarded--because it does take skill to do.




m

[swan]

There have been several complaints that the floor at Nationals was too small, which could be a strongly contributing factor. I've only seen one European competition this year (Blackpool), and there was some pretty ratty floorcraft in some of the first few rounds there too

One year I was at Blackpool, Bill Irvine had to intervene by warning all competitors to exercise better sense of floorcraft!

No kidding about poor floorcraft in this year's Nationals. I didn't even know my headpiece was knocked off by a crash in tango and yes, it was a contra check (I checked the tape, and it was clearly not our fault). People just crashed into us despite seeing us there. Geez! I was lucky not to suffer concussion!

[tangotime]

A great deal of fault has to lie with the coaching .

I was trained, like the poster, in the u.k. ( and do train my competitors ) to be very " spacially " aware .

One of the underlying problems - the inabilty to deviate from a set piece, and work thru the problem , should one arise .

This is not a unique problem . It occurs at all levels , and has always been present to some degree. Maybe more egregious , or just a sign of the times ?

[tbrennen]

It was interesting out there in the Champ Std this year at Nationals. Personally, I had more of a feeling of wild dancing rather than bad floorcraft. I will say that almost every dancer I talked to thought the floor was too short and for, um, less experienced dancers, a short floor can make things interesting.

I wonder how many couples, especially the younger ones, practice dancing outside of their choreography. My partner and I always warm up with pure lead/follow. Actually, the first three months of our dancing together, we just danced lead/follow with no choreography at all.

[star_gazer]

Part of the problem is that some of these young couples practice primarily in a vacuum...alone and without a coach. They work on routines...not on lead and follow. They are young and competitive and get a bit charged up. Also ...I just watched the video again...and my kids (guilty as charged) are tall and "smashed" into a shorter couple that they/he probably didn't see. Solutions? More competitions, find group practices, center and focus, lead and follow...other suggestions???

[Laura]

Yeah star_gazer, it's not like in Europe where a kid couple goes down to the local sports hall for lessons and practice and shares the floor with 50 other couples. I had dinner a while ago with a former multi-time Finnish youth champion who told me that in her town (a suburb of Helsinki), 600 kids would go to the sports hall every day for lessons and practice.

Things are very different here, that's for sure.

[Joe]

It was interesting out there in the Champ Std this year at Nationals. Personally, I had more of a feeling of wild dancing rather than bad floorcraft. I will say that almost every dancer I talked to thought the floor was too short and for, um, less experienced dancers, a short floor can make things interesting.
Very much agreed about the short floor.

It certainly does seem that the current emphasis on being hyperdynamic has lessened the emphasis on floorcraft and/or sportsmanship.

One anecdote I'd like to relay is something one of the Novice Standard competitors from your area said to me in the dressing room. He said there were so many aggressive couples out there on the Novice floor, how whenever he'd do a line someone would come around and knock over his extended leg (now, he was a taller fellow, of course, and who knows where he was dancing his lines?). I told him I guessed he wasn't quite ready for the speed of open, meaning open choreography, but he thought I meant Open Amateur and said, "But it's not Open, it's Novice!"

[Ithink]

I have to say that I experienced terrible floorcraft as well last weekend and saw what you are talking about in Champ standard as well. In Novice, there was one couple in the earlier rounds (thank god they didn't make the final because they could have finally succeeded in knocking me unconscious there) that would just come forward no matter who was there doing a line or what not. Once they crashed right into my outstretched head because they couldn't wait for it to move out of their way. Pre-Champ went much better but there were still instances of people clearly going into space that was already occupied by us, consequences be damned.

I watched the Champ Standard, thinking that at this highest level of competition things would be better because these dancers know what they are doing but I was wrong. There were so many collisions, some of them looked like they were quite deliberate (one was mentioned in another thread earlier), people just wouldn't wait, wouldn't stop, wouldn't break frame when they did invade someone else's space... It was awful. There were two men in that event who deserve a mention for very courteous and creative dancing which demonstrated very clearly what most of their competition lacked - Pasha Pashkov and Andrea Faraci. Good for them (and their excellent partners) for staying above the fray and demonstrating the sportsmanship so many of their competitors lacked.

[etp777]

Is there any trick to improving this? Or jsut a matter of practice, stay aware, and work on ways to get out of problems. I try to be aware, but I don't always have best steps to get out of problems (actually, sure I know steps to get out of any situations, just cna't always think of them in time :) ).

We were talking about this during lesson yesterday, another student, and her teacher and mine. My teacher seems to bear the brunt of bad floorcraft in our studio, including an elbow in the face from the other student in question, getting hit in stomach by me *(that one was my fault), getting hit in side another time by me (but that was during a group and doing step she told me too and she knew she shouldn't walk behind me there, so I blame her ;) ). But always willing to take any advice to help reduce how often I have to apologize for running into each someone. :)

[Ithink]

One of the best pieces of advice I got about floorcraft (and one I saw practiced by Pasha Pashkov this weekend) was to hold a nice position (promenade, hover, lunge, something that doesn't move laterally but can still be "danced") until the spot into which you want to go is emptied by your fellow competitor who was there first. This is especially true if you are not experienced enough to improvise on the spot and go in the opposite direction from the one your choeography ought to go in...

[NielsenE]

There's several tricks to improving it some of which at first might sound contradictory

a) dance rounds, practice in crowded spaces

b) play chase with another couple, see if you can follow them around the floor, without hitting them

c) play blocking with another couple -- see if you can get in front of them, with enough space to lead a line safely and make them go around you

d) play find the hole -- use your most comfortable/basic figures and see if you can always keep yourself in a bubble of open space... as you get better learn to "shoot" through openings to move from one open bubble to another -- identify which figures are "narrow" or "wide"

e) have another couple stand/move around the room, on purpose getting in your way and learn to avoid them

A is probably the most helpful by far, once you've built up some of the skills, but B/C and D shouldn't be neglected. B/C are great since you only need one other couple to practice with. In some ways they are the opposite of good floorcraft, but they focus on teaching you how to adjust your steps/routine/practice L&F under dynamic conditions. (Normally I don't advise combining B&C in the same excerise... whomever the "target" couple is should just be doing their routine/dancing "normally" not actively trying to "escape". D is a useful thing to practice on a well attended party, but not one that's so crowded that there aren't really any holes....

A and D are also important since they teach the "whole-room" awareness required to be good at floorcarft... B/C are too focused on a single couple to be much help there...

[tangotime]

The ability to substitute set pieces, is something that can take many moons to develop.

One of the major problems , is " routine " teaching.

It is far more practical to think in terms of " groups ", which can be isolated and if need arises, be amended during the course of an event .

I know-- easier said than done, but that is the art of floor craft .

Of course, the simple solution ?-- stay out of trouble on the floor !!

I believe it is unwarranted to lay to much blame at any ones feet ( no pun ) during Novice ( and maybe pre champ. ) comps. These are the places ,where you should be developing those skills. ( I once suggested " L " plates on the back-- no takers :rolleyes::rolleyes: )

[NielsenE]

I believe it is unwarranted to lay to much blame at any ones feet ( no pun ) during Novice ( and maybe pre champ. ) comps. These are the places ,where you should be developing those skills. ( I once suggested " L " plates on the back-- no takers :rolleyes::rolleyes: )


One of the other students from my studio went out onto his first competition floor wearing a "student driver" sign below his number.... All the adjudicators were cracking up...

[Another Elizabeth]

b) play chase with another couple, see if you can follow them around the floor, without hitting them

c) play blocking with another couple -- see if you can get in front of them, with enough space to lead a line safely and make them go around you

I know that Alex and Victor Fung used to do this in practice all the time when they were still in Youth - and both have exquisite floorcraft now.

[tangotime]

One of the other students from my studio went out onto his first competition floor wearing a "student driver" sign below his number.... All the adjudicators were cracking up...


My kinda guy !!!

[cornutt]

Part of the problem is that some of these young couples practice primarily in a vacuum...alone and without a coach. They work on routines...not on lead and follow. They are young and competitive and get a bit charged up. Also ...I just watched the video again...and my kids (guilty as charged) are tall and "smashed" into a shorter couple that they/he probably didn't see. Solutions? More competitions, find group practices, center and focus, lead and follow...other suggestions???

May I be so bold as to suggest... an occasional social dance? It seems like there's an awful lot of competitive couples around these days who have never social danced at all. I personally feel that no one can really appreciate what floorcraft is all about without doing some socials.

[star_gazer]

May I be so bold as to suggest... an occasional social dance? It seems like there's an awful lot of competitive couples around these days who have never social danced at all. I personally feel that no one can really appreciate what floorcraft is all about without doing some socials.It sounds like a good idea but its just a whole different atmosphere. Most of the competitive standard dancers I know are in their late teens/early twenties and their "social" dancing has no resemblance to their competitive dancing.

[Indiana_Jay]

LW and I noticed that couples seemed unable to deviate from their choreography, no matter what the floor situation was. They were going to do what came next in their routine, even if they had to stand in someone's way until they could do it. To me, that's not ballroom dancing. In my book, true ballroom dancers should always be able to move where they need to move regardless of what's next in their planned routines. But then, I'm not a competitor and probably never will be, so I'm sure there are issues I don't understand.

[cornutt]

Most of the competitive standard dancers I know are in their late teens/early twenties and their "social" dancing has no resemblance to their competitive dancing.

I claim that that's part of the problem. But I'm not a high-level competitive dancer, so what do I know.

[star_gazer]

I claim that that's part of the problem. But I'm not a high-level competitive dancer, so what do I know.I agree but I am not one either. I think the practice rounds and earlier suggestions regarding using other couples in practice as obstacles and whatever is a more likely solution though.

[star_gazer]

LW and I noticed that couples seemed unable to deviate from their choreography, no matter what the floor situation was. They were going to do what came next in their routine, even if they had to stand in someone's way until they could do it. To me, that's not ballroom dancing. In my book, true ballroom dancers should always be able to move where they need to move regardless of what's next in their planned routines. But then, I'm not a competitor and probably never will be, so I'm sure there are issues I don't understand.I think that at the championship level most of them can deviate from their choreography just fine. They are just not all equally good at it during competition ...on a small floor. At nationals the semi was much, much less hectic than the QF and there were still a number of the less masterful couples out there.

[tunape]

I know that Alex and Victor Fung used to do this in practice all the time when they were still in Youth

I do this at socials! :)

[Alskling]

May I be so bold as to suggest... an occasional social dance? It seems like there's an awful lot of competitive couples around these days who have never social danced at all. I personally feel that no one can really appreciate what floorcraft is all about without doing some socials.

Agree with you absolutely on this. I know at least one high-level, highly experienced competitor who attributes his floorcraft abilities entirely to learning on the social dance floor. I wish more people felt this way. In fairness, though, when you are training a zillion hours a week, the idea of going out social dancing in your few spare hours is not all that appealing.

Am really enjoying this thread. I think what has perturbed me most about shoddy floorcraft, other than physically getting beaten to a pulp in some rounds, is that a lot of the younger ones simply don't seem to care if they hurt you. They won't stop, look, apologize or even acknowledge that they've just plowed down another human being. I once had a guy, approximately 18 years old, body slam me so hard from behind that I was face down on the floor before I knew what hit me. He glanced at me over his shoulder, but otherwise made no acknowledgement that anything unusual had happened. I have to wonder, in the grander scale of things, what kind of human being you turn out to be in other areas of life if you can do damage to another person and simply not care. I understand the heat of competition, and I understand that accidents and collisions inevitably happen, but I also hope that coaches emphasize good sportsmanship--or heck, plain old common courtesy--as well as aggression.

[madmaximus]

Curious...

How many of you out there saw/recognized good floorcraft at a recent competition?

Let's say the Nationals.

If a couple has good floorcraft, would it be seen AS floorcraft?




m

[Ithink]

I mentioned a few couples, above, who to me stood out as having superior floorcraft in champ standard at Nationals. Pasha/Inna and Andrea/Erica... Of course I recognized it as floorcraft!

[meow]

Most coaches here expect good floorcraft all the time, be it a lesson, practice or competition. Some practice sessions can have lots of couples on the floor and showing good floorcraft is a must. Sure accidents can happen and I have seen a few but you can always tell when it is intentional. I would say I have only seen 'intentional' crashes a couple of times - the judges noticed it too. It is a two-fold thing in my mind - courtesy and safety.

[tanz15]

I think what has perturbed me most about shoddy floorcraft, other than physically getting beaten to a pulp in some rounds, is that a lot of the younger ones simply don't seem to care if they hurt you. They won't stop, look, apologize or even acknowledge that they've just plowed down another human being. I once had a guy, approximately 18 years old, body slam me so hard from behind that I was face down on the floor before I knew what hit me. He glanced at me over his shoulder, but otherwise made no acknowledgement that anything unusual had happened.

It's not only the young. I was once hit very hard (my partner and I were nearly knocked off the floor and into the audience) by a 30-something couple, who didn't even break stride or look around. It probably comes as no surprise that they didn't bother to come find us after the round was over. This occurred in a prechamp event, which isn't exactly the highest stake game around.

[DrDoug]

I have to wonder, in the grander scale of things, what kind of human being you turn out to be in other areas of life if you can do damage to another person and simply not care.

Well, if you're a professional athlete, Hollywood movie writer, corporate executive, militant religious wacko, . . ., you turn out to be highly successful. In a world that glorifies psychopathy, bad floorcraft hardly seems noteworthy.

[atk]

I haven't competed all that much, but, from conversations with people, I've gotten the strong impression that competitors were more or less self policing. One person, in particular, springs to mind who has told me that, if he sees anyone behaving rudely, as described in this thread, and he's on the floor with them at any later time, he'll make sure to... return the favor, and be clear about the reason.

Is my impression wrong - are the individuals who will not stand for total rudeness a smaller number that I had thought?

[tbrennen]

...One person, in particular, springs to mind who has told me that, if he sees anyone behaving rudely, as described in this thread, and he's on the floor with them at any later time, he'll make sure to... return the favor, and be clear about the reason...

The problem with any approach is that it can escalate the problem, especially if you are on the floor. The judges certainly won't appreciate it if they see it. Even waiting til after you are off the floor doesn't help that much since you are just as likely to get a grunt or a "blank you" as to get any sort of apologetic response. It almost is not worth it.

[cornutt]

The problem with any approach is that it can escalate the problem, especially if you are on the floor.

I agree that that probably will not fix it. The only real motivator, as I see it, will come when judges start marking down couples for poor floorcraft. I've read some interviews with people who judge, and I have yet to see one mention floorcraft as something that they look at.

[tangotime]

You didnt talk to me !

[SDsalsaguy]

I agree that that probably will not fix it. The only real motivator, as I see it, will come when judges start marking down couples for poor floorcraft. I've read some interviews with people who judge, and I have yet to see one mention floorcraft as something that they look at.
I agree with cornutt; the only time this will change is when judges mark floorcraft seriously. For all of the judges who have told me that it matters to them, very few seem willing to mark it as part of dancing rather than as seperate from the levle of dancing itself in their marking.

[Chris Stratton]

Here's an interesting one. Two tallish couples set up in the corner for foxtrot about one and a half "reasonable spacings" apart. Short couple expected to win comes up and squeezes in between. Very clear that if all three start with feathers, short follower is going to get an elbow in her ear. Yet they chose to squeeze into that impossible position.

So, song starts. Three feathers. Elbow in the ear. Short couple checks and restarts. And wins...

[cantskiforlife]

Chris,

Its nice to be able to start with spacing, but its not reality. You should be able to adapt your dancing based on your surroundings.

If you are driving in traffic and you leave a small opening for your own comfort, and then someone else takes up your "space" so what? Adapt and modify your speed.

1) Same thing with dancing. If a couple cuts you off, or starts in the place you would like to go next, so what? Deal with reality and adjust your dancing. Don't plow through the person or get pissed, just adapt.

2) Of course there is the other side of this as well. If you see that your next move may potentially cause a collision, modify its direction or change the move so that you don't create a potential situation.

I have to agree that I see way too many people violating both of these...for back of a better word...rules...and simply charging around the floor without regard for the other moving obstacles on the floor.

[cantskiforlife]

From experience I can tell you that you will get into accidents, the trick is how to handle them.

1) BRACE YOURSELF: No seriously, a few comps ago I was hit at least twice (I think 3 times) by different couples while I was standing still. In each case, I was sturdy enough on my feet that I barely moved and the resultant forces knocked the other couple to the floor.

2) BE NIMBLE/ KNOW WHERE YOU ARE STEPPING: In two other cases I can remember, I tripped over someone's foot (my fault) and had to quickly adjust my own balance but was able to continue almost as if nothing had happened.

3) DON'T JUST LET YOUR PARTNER FALL: Seriously. I have seen leaders whose partners have tripped and fallen and the guy just stands there wondering what happened. If she starts falling, catch her.

[delamusica]

3) DON'T JUST LET YOUR PARTNER FALL: Seriously. I have seen leaders whose partners have tripped and fallen and the guy just stands there wondering what happened. If she starts falling, catch her.


:notworth:

A major sign of a good partner and a good lead.

[Chris Stratton]

1) Same thing with dancing. If a couple cuts you off, or starts in the place you would like to go next, so what? Deal with reality and adjust your dancing. Don't plow through the person or get pissed, just adapt.

Two couples were set up for a parallel start that would easily clear each other.

A third then walked up and squeezed in between. By insisting on starting with the other two, they got themselves clobbered. Had they not tried to move into the about to dissapear space, they would have been fine. In the end they had to improvise an alternative plan anyway as a recovery.

I'd consider it comparable to pulling up to the right of a truck with it's right turn signal on - which is to say, very different from being stalled in the middle of the road when a truck happens by.

Especially as the whole thing was predictable 10-15 seconds in advance, and they did it anyway.

[wyllo]

Two couples were set up for a parallel start that would easily clear each other.

A third then walked up and squeezed in between. By insisting on starting with the other two, they got themselves clobbered. Had they not tried to move into the about to dissapear space, they would have been fine. In the end they had to improvise an alternative plan anyway as a recovery.

I'd consider it comparable to pulling up to the right of a truck with it's right turn signal on - which is to say, very different from being stalled in the middle of the road when a truck happens by.

Especially as the whole thing was predictable 10-15 seconds in advance, and they did it anyway.

The third couple made a bad choice, but I don't think it gives the first or second couple the right to plow into No. 3. They should adjust accordingly and prove themselves the better dancers.

Using your truck example -- if the driver of the truck sees the car doesn't he have an obligation to avoid the collision?

[cantskiforlife]

Chris obviously you were there and I wasn't. But at the start of a foxtrot, lets just say about 80% of the couples start from either side of the long wall. IF its a 10 couple semi - that means 4 couples for each of the two corners. Its going to be a little crowded.

Perhaps they thought it was enough room. Now it may not have been too smart given the proportional size of the other couples (they would be rather hidden and not stand out as well), but they choose that spot and I see nothing wrong with it.

Of course they will know to give a little more distance next time....

But I would still hold that the fault is still on the couple that hit them (unless they actually ran their heads into the elbow...funny to think of).

[Chris Stratton]

It was not a head on collision, but a one caused by the natural rotation of all three couples in the swing when they were too close together. The middle couple predictably saw their stolen sliver of space dissapear, but kept moving anyway.

If we assign the blame equally, then what we are basically saying is that couples already in place on the floor should pick up and move elsewhere if someone else plops down too close to them. Vs. a couple which has not yet chosen a place choosing one with a bit of care.

Because one thing you don't want to do is to be set up for one kind of start, and then make a completely different one. If you aren't going to be able to start with a feather at the top of a long wall, pick something completely different and start it in a position that makes sense for what it is - a freedom you still have when picking a spot on the floor, but don't have once you are in place.

[Al Gisnered]

It was not a head on collision, but a one caused by the natural rotation of all three couples in the swing when they were too close together. The middle couple predictably saw their stolen sliver of space dissapear, but kept moving anyway.

If we assign the blame equally, then what we are basically saying is that couples already in place on the floor should pick up and move elsewhere if someone else plops down too close to them. Vs. a couple which has not yet chosen a place choosing one with a bit of care.

Because one thing you don't want to do is to be set up for one kind of start, and then make a completely different one. If you aren't going to be able to start with a feather at the top of a long wall, pick something completely different and start it in a position that makes sense for what it is - a freedom you still have when picking a spot on the floor, but don't have once you are in place.

Chris, I agree.

The topic is floor craft, is it not? An essential element that is frequently neglected is knowing where to place yourself so that your movement will not impinge upon or hamper the movement of others, a seemingly uncommon courtesy in today’s competition scene.

Though you may have a “right” to start your dance at the far end of a long wall, if that space is taken by another in advance of you, common courtesy and good floorcraft will demand that you yield to his precedence. Even if it means that you have to start with a short wall. Or the middle of the long wall. If you possess appropriate skills, a flexible routine and good floorcraft, it won’t matter.

[madmaximus]

Recently I was on a long wall with 4 other couples all about to do the feather to DC. All four started at the same time and created a real mishap at the reverse turn--each not wanting to give up the HONOR of being first to go and be seen.

I turned to DWall, waited one measure before starting, did a hover telemark and THEN the feather-tele, and avoided the collision.

Sometimes, you just have to wait for the others to hit each other, adjust a teeensy bit, and then go...





m

[cantskiforlife]

I turned to DWall, waited one measure before starting, did a hover telemark and THEN the feather-tele, and avoided the collision.

Sometimes, you just have to wait for the others to hit each other, adjust a teeensy bit, and then go...


Well said. You can claim a right to the spot you are standing on, but nothing else on the floor. If someone decides to get in your path, that's their choice, the question is... how do you react?

And yes chris, If the space was already gone before the middle couple got there, and they collided with the other person's elbow :) then it is definitely their fault. If they got there and the space disappeared because the other two couples (or one) moved into a space that was no longer there, then its that couples fault.

I guess I would have to see the footage.

[meow]

You know what, I have seen some collisions that were accidental and at the end of that dance the couples have gone up to each other just to check everyone was OK. And I know a few coaches who will mark couples down for deliberately causing collisions or trying to trip or kick. At the end of the day though, those who play dirty are known for 'playing dirty' and reputation means an awful lot in the dance industry here.

[cantskiforlife]

Yes. This is true. Unfortunately, a lot of the "play dirty" kids get away clean. A friend has a rather interesting story from involving an MIT student who was playing rough.

Now, I don't condone body checking a kid who plays rough off of the floor, but I sure wish I had seen it.

[tbrennen]

In the first round in the 2004 Nationals Senior Standard in Tango, I took my current partner's head and slammed it into the head of my first partner. The people on the podium heard it from across the floor. Andreas and I had groggy partners after that. Subsequent viewing of the video showed that no one was at fault and that it was just one of those things that happens regardless of good floorcraft practices. Of course, that was small consolation to the our partners and their heads. Now, three years later, I can laugh about it but it wasn't funny at the time.

As for judges who will mark couple down for poor floorcraft, I know that Stephen Cullip does. He is adamant about the necessity for good floorcraft.

[tangotime]

, I know that Stephen Cullip does. He is adamant about the necessity for good floorcraft.

He gets that from his dad (he and his mother, Olive, were very good friends for many yrs ).
I remember Jim and Olive dancing freestyle at the last pro. comp in which I danced, ( an A/m regional in L.A. ) weaving his way thru a very crowded floor, during the general dancing period .

[fascination]

lol, as the end of the couple that generally recieves the crash, I am so NOT for the notion of reciprocating ;)

[etp777]

Finding this thread very enlightening, and hoping I can learn from other peopls mistakes (though heinlein said this was impossible) and improve on this myself. Particularly appreciate your responses, neilsenE and tangotime, in regards to my question. Going to try some of your techniques during next party or busy lesson, neilsenE. tangotime, while my teacher doesn't teach routines (unless we're getting ready for a comp), I'll often practice little "routines" to help make sure I'm practicing all my various steps/techniques, and you're right, i've seen that get me in trouble on floor, where i get used to doing certain set of steps, and have some trouble recovering if there's not room, or have some trouble altering it if I'm dancing with someone who doesn't know all the steps (some of which are not really easily leadable if follow doesn't know it). Going to have to change my practicing a bit on that.

3) DON'T JUST LET YOUR PARTNER FALL: Seriously. I have seen leaders whose partners have tripped and fallen and the guy just stands there wondering what happened. If she starts falling, catch her.

Cantskiforlife, this is one i've seen way too often, and just can't understand at all. Yes, there are times where there are collisions and people are going to fall. But I can't really have any respect for a man who doesn't at least try to catch his partner when she's falling. Just not way I was raised. Of course, part of reason I make sure to catch Megan if she falls is that it's normally my fault, but tha'ts not the point. :D

[tangotime]

One thing-- do not take yourself to task to quickly.

These techniques, take many yrs to perfect . Sounds like you are headed in the right direction .

[etp777]

Ha, no, I've had it well drilled into me by pro, coaches, sister, friends, aprents, etc, that I'm not going to achieve perfection as soon as I want to. :) But doesn't keep me from shooting for it, as that's what drives me to keep improving. Course, even when I decide to take things a bit easier, pro is always there to get on me. ;)

Thanks though, it is good to be reminded of that.

[FeetwithaBeat]

I've seen competitions where bad floorcraft (whether intentional or not) caused the testosterone level during the round to raise tremendously -- makes one wait for the next "accidental" crash. This gave rise to my idea for a new division in DanceSport -- "ExtremeDanceSport" no need for judges!! The last couple left standing wins. In Bronze only elbows, shoes (toes and heels) and the closed LH/RH connection are allowed to be used for "combat"; in Silver couples are now allowed to use "picture" lines to trip others; Gold opens up the usage of head butting and the "Open" levels allow for the usage of creative costuming -- razor blades or broken glass cleverly hidden in floats or tails, jewelery with sharp edges etc etc.....

[NielsenE]

I still want to see a ballroom version of BattleBots....

[iluv2Samba]

I still want to see a ballroom version of BattleBots....

Amen to that! :D

[etp777]

Couple heats at that July comp here just about qualified, nielsene. :)

[Chris Stratton]

I still want to see a ballroom version of BattleBots....

I keep thinking some kind of video game...

Figure out how to use maybe two arrow clusters (both hands) in combination to create different actions, with more advanced figures requiring really complicated interactions, and the ever present possibility not only of collision, but also wiping out. Plus you could have really cool little animations of partner reaction if you mess up too much...

On second thought... sounding a bit too much like real life.

(But if we could figure out network play...)

[tangotime]

I've seen competitions where bad floorcraft (whether intentional or not) caused the testosterone level during the round to raise tremendously -- makes one wait for the next "accidental" crash. This gave rise to my idea for a new division in DanceSport -- "ExtremeDanceSport" no need for judges!! The last couple left standing wins. In Bronze only elbows, shoes (toes and heels) and the closed LH/RH connection are allowed to be used for "combat"; in Silver couples are now allowed to use "picture" lines to trip others; Gold opens up the usage of head butting and the "Open" levels allow for the usage of creative costuming -- razor blades or broken glass cleverly hidden in floats or tails, jewelery with sharp edges etc etc.....


Now THATS Funny !!!!!!!!!!!:):)

[fascination]

dunno...i really don't want the guy to try to catch me unless he can do so without being injured...I know how to fall ...but it is hell to pay on a man's back to try to keep something like that from happening...I'd rather fall than injure him

[iluv2Samba]

dunno...i really don't want the guy to try to catch me unless he can do so without being injured...I know how to fall ...but it is hell to pay on a man's back to try to keep something like that from happening...I'd rather fall than injure him

Wow! That's very considerate.

[fascination]

gotta say I DO enjoy the sort of dignified albeit snarky jockeying for position that I see out there at times....pro tends to be the courteous accomodating sort, but I can tell when he is starting to steam...and i don't often miss the looks that they all give one another varying from courteous to murderous depending upon the moment

[fascination]

Wow! That's very considerate.
nah..selfish...I need him...and I have a big cushion

[etp777]

Heh, considerate too, even if you won't admit it, fasc. :)

But also a very good point. I learned years back doing wrestling and judo with my dad how to catch someone (often had to do that doing practice throws so wouldn't really hurt the person, esp when we were working without proper padded floor), and when not to. :) Plus fact that I'm pretty well built guy, and my pro is tiny, not sure I could hurt myself even if I purposely caught her wrong.

I hadn't thought about that though, and very good point. Fine, guys who don't catch in deference of him or her getting hurt are excused. Anyone else who lets their partner fall just from lack of trying is still a boor. :)

[fascination]

sure...and pro woudl try if possible and certainly knows how to use his knees but we are the same weight and height, perhaps I even have him on both counts by a sliver...I am certainly not fragile...and I really would just feel awful if I hampered his livelihood by his effort to catch me...I bounce...

[cornutt]

dunno...i really don't want the guy to try to catch me unless he can do so without being injured...I know how to fall ...but it is hell to pay on a man's back to try to keep something like that from happening...I'd rather fall than injure him

No partner of mine is going to fall if I can possibly help it. There are techniques that a lead can use. If my partner can just get one foot under her, then I can redirect the momentum of the fall back towards me, and from there I can take the momentum through my spine down to my hips, or into my knees if necessary. I've found that it's rare for a partner to lose both feet simultaneously -- incipient falls are usually the result of an overbalance (or a short step, other side of the same coin), and in these cases the partner will still have one foot braced. Then all I have to do basically is help her get back on her balance. No back strain required.

[FeetwithaBeat]

"I've found that it's rare for a partner to lose both feet simultaneously -- incipient falls are usually the result of an overbalance (or a short step, other side of the same coin), and in these cases the partner will still have one foot braced"

Not always the case, there are those occasions where a heel can get caught in the hem of a dress, another person's heel comes either crashing down on a foot or a heel gets caught in someone else's shoe, bad flooring (cracks, bumps or even worse those God awful put together hotel floors with the metal seams), an elbow to the back or head causing loss of balance etc.

I have another question.. there has been much talk of the male partner catching the female. What about the reverse situation when the male begins to fall. I'm not suggestiong the lady catch him, but in some cases, she can minimize damage or help break the fall (or speed of the fall). I know of one pro who had gotten new patent leather shoes. While practicing a rotational step, his shoes stuck and he began to fall, twisting his left knee pretty badly. His partner stepped away, throwing her arms up in the air and laughed. This pro suffered severe ligament damage and was in intense pain for a few years after that (fortunately a sports minded physical therapist finally was able to help).

[FeetwithaBeat]

PS YAY!! I'm finally a "Citizen" ;)

[wooh]

dunno...i really don't want the guy to try to catch me unless he can do so without being injured...I know how to fall ...but it is hell to pay on a man's back to try to keep something like that from happening...I'd rather fall than injure him

Agree, and I tend to get a lot of practice falling.:)

[skwiggy]

Some of the best floorcraft I've ever seen what that of Alain Doucet & Anik Jolicoeur (sp?). The only way I could tell they broke from their routine at all was that I watched them for several rounds so I knew it was altered for traffic. And it was seamless, and lovely. The quality was no less than the routine itself, and it worked no matter whether he was the one who was facing the traffic or she was. They didn't miss a single beat, not even in quickstep. I was amazed by their skillful floorcraft, and haven't forgotten it even years later.

[samina]

PS YAY!! I'm finally a "Citizen" ;)

:banana:

[Adwiz]

I have another question.. there has been much talk of the male partner catching the female. What about the reverse situation when the male begins to fall.

Hehe, that's easy: fall on the lady! I'm just kidding, but I've seen it happen in Standard more than once -- the poor woman on the ground with the man on top of her.

I've had to catch my partner several times in situations where she tripped over someone's foot or for some other reason began to fall. But a month ago this happened to her while she was behind me. She was spinning behind me and unknown to me caught her foot against another dancer and fell. As I turned around she was already hitting the ground and I couldn't do anything to keep her from falling. I was devastated that I couldn't be there to stop it. She twisted her ankle badly and it may be several more weeks before she can dance.

[wooh]

No partner of mine is going to fall if I can possibly help it. There are techniques that a lead can use.

I think I feel an effort should be made, bearing safety in mind. (This is for typical ballroom. If you're doing lifts or the like, then the guy lifting better be making sure his partner is safe.) I guess it comes from healthcare work. I've fried my back to where I have to be very careful. And I've finally, after many years, killed the instinct to catch no matter what. I'll help someone slide to the floor, but they're still going to end up on the floor. As for the question about follows catching leads, feel the same way about that, I'll help you get your balance, slow your fall to the floor, but I won't kill my back to make it look pretty. And I really hope a lead wouldn't kill his back to save me from falling. Only injuries I've gotten from hitting the floor have been from a floor sweep where I purposefully hit the floor. As long as it's accidental, and nobody's trying to look pretty, nature takes it's course and tends to let the natural padding soften all the blows!

[Peaches]

Cantskiforlife, this is one i've seen way too often, and just can't understand at all. Yes, there are times where there are collisions and people are going to fall. But I can't really have any respect for a man who doesn't at least try to catch his partner when she's falling. Just not way I was raised. Of course, part of reason I make sure to catch Megan if she falls is that it's normally my fault, but tha'ts not the point. :DWith the caveat that I'm only a ballroom dabbler, and I don't compete...

If I'm really headed towards the floor, I'd prefer the guy to just get out of the way and let me fall. I can handle falling by myself, but if I'm really headed down, chances are good I'll be taking him down with me...and then I have to worry about injuring, and being injured by, him.

A wobble, or somethere where he can absolutely catch me is a bit different. As are dips. But other than that, I'd much prefer the guy to just let me go.

[cornutt]

As long as it's accidental, and nobody's trying to look pretty, nature takes it's course and tends to let the natural padding soften all the blows!

Quite true. One day about ten years ago, I was doing a wiring inspection in the attic of a planetarium. I was following some wiring wround the dome, and I didn't know that the attic floor didn't go all the way around. I fell 10 ft. through a drop ceiling onto the concrete floor below. When the fall started, as I went off the edge I was leaning forwards. By the time I hit the floor, I was facing backwards and I landed on my rear end. I walked away with nothing worse than a cut on my ear from the ceiling grid. To this day I don't know how I did it.

[etp777]

Peaches, I completely agree that dance wise it may be better to let her fall. just goes against every fiber in my body. :) LUckily, so far I've always been able to safely catch her with no pain to either of us. Of course, I hit her in stomach at a party when i was dancing waltz with someone else, and hit her in side during a group lesson when she made bad choice of where to stand while I was doing tango with another student. But neither of those involved her falling. :D

[Peaches]

I've had a few close calls (heel of shoe getting caught in toe part of other shoe, heel getting caught in hem of pants a few times, and having my foot just slide right out from under me). Except for the last one of those, where the guy did manage to catch me in time to steady me (albeit leaving bruises in the process), I just remember my brain switching to thinking about how I was going to deal with the very real possibility of the guy coming down on top of me. Too much to think about. I'd prefer to concentrate on falling on my butt.

[Zhena]

Quite true. One day about ten years ago, I was doing a wiring inspection in the attic of a planetarium. I was following some wiring wround the dome, and I didn't know that the attic floor didn't go all the way around. I fell 10 ft. through a drop ceiling onto the concrete floor below. When the fall started, as I went off the edge I was leaning forwards. By the time I hit the floor, I was facing backwards and I landed on my rear end. I walked away with nothing worse than a cut on my ear from the ceiling grid. To this day I don't know how I did it.

Something similar happened to me. I was walking down some exterior stairs carrying my daughter as well as a bunch of stuff that blocked my view of my feet. There was an unexpected change in stair height where the wooden stairs transitioned to concrete, and I fell. I ended up on my back in a bush, with my daughter on top of me. I always assumed that the reason I twisted was because of a mother's instinctive protection of her child, but maybe there was an element of self-preservation as well. (For the record, my daughter wasn't even scratched, but you couldn't say the same for me. The bush was VERY prickly.)

To get back to falling while dancing, the one time it happened to me recently, I did manage to fall on the well-padded portion of my anatomy -- no damage at all.

[meow]

I think most falls occur do to bad flooring, especially overly slippery floors. They are very dangerous. Some venues won't allow wax or other substances to be used, which I can understand, but then the organisors should look at the floors at venues before choosing them - the safety of the dancers should come first.

[FatBaldGuy60]

To get back to falling while dancing, the one time it happened to me recently, I did manage to fall on the well-padded portion of my anatomy -- no damage at all.

What about us guys? We are not generally so well..upholstered in that area. Maybe we should learn to fall on our big beer guts?

FBG

[iluv2Samba]

What about us guys? We are not generally so well..upholstered in that area. Maybe we should learn to fall on our big beer guts?

FBG

ROTFLMAO! :uplaugh:

[Joe]

dunno...i really don't want the guy to try to catch me unless he can do so without being injured...I know how to fall ...but it is hell to pay on a man's back to try to keep something like that from happening...I'd rather fall than injure him
Well, your pro is very slight.

[fascination]

true but he is also very buff...but yes, I stand a fair chance of seriously putting him out of work if I hold on