We don't understand the importance of the music?

[Spitfire]

I was over on another message board where someone made a post stating his belief that most ballroom dancers don't understand the importance of the music and simply dance to "the beat". :o

What am I missing here? No matter what dance and where we learn are we not taught to move to a rhythm? Isn't this our guide?

Just don't know where this viewpoint is coming from. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

While I don't know the context in which said comment was made I'll hazard a guess at the intent...

Take the case of a relatively new dancer who, to date, has only been dancing Latin. Now have them start doing standard or smooth. Their motions will never fit the music because they’re always landing exactly on the beat as you would in any of the Latin dances.

Or take the case of the even newer, beginning dancer. Maybe they even have a few steps and patterns under their belt already that they can execute “on time.” But it doesn’t really look like dancing yet. Why not? Aside from more advanced technique, one problem is likely to be that they transfer their weight too quickly – “boom” its done. The problem here is that there’s more then just beats to music, and if they only use the beats their motions would be very rigid and choppy – it’s the “oozing” between beats that really makes top notch dancing stand out (at least IMHO).

A while back I heard one teacher say that the better the dancer the more they liked slow music. Why? Because they actually knew what to do with their bodies to fill it, whereas newer dancers had already “arrived” and ended up just sitting there waiting for the next beat.

My guess is that this is the overall dynamic that was intended. But then again… :?:

[Spitfire]

This was from a post I saw over on a Lindy Hop board, but the person posting it also does some ballroom. He made no mention of technique or anything more specific and thus the assertion puzzles me. :o

[MissAlyssa]

Who knows. Maybe he feels dancers don't "respect" music because we don't necissarily listen to the music..it's more like we feel the beat. ???

[will35]

Let me say first of all that I am not a Lindy Hopper really. But there is nobody really answering Spitfire's question so I'll take a big, fat, flying guess. I hear my Lindy friends say very frequently that ballroomers just dance on the beat and not with the music. Then they mention dancing through the breaks. Then, they cannot explain any further. I think they mean that when the music changes (slows down, stops completely, becomes more or less synchopated) the true Lindy Hopper improvises his/her way through the change. It really beats me, I am just guessing.

[pygmalion]

As somebody trained first in classical music, then in dance, I'm guessing that SDSalsaguy is at least close, but probably right.
There are beats, then there's music. You can dance to the beats, or you can dance to all of the music.

If you watch top pros dance, lots of the dancing -- the prep for concise moves, or prep for spins, or settling into the hips, and lots of other stuff, happens BETWEEN the beats, but to the music.

That's my guess of what the Lindy Hopper is talking about.

There's the 1-2-3-4 that everybody is using.

But the experienced dancers and/or musicians are using the
1-2-3-4- and the and and the and-a. It's a matter of subdividing the beats.

[will35]

I don't know how I got into this, but I guess this will be my last word. There are phrases in music. If you know classical music, you know that they don't always come in eights or sixes. To dance to the beat is easy. Just do the steps you learn in class, whether they are eights or sixes or whatever. But my Lindy friends learned not from classes, but from dancing. I understand that everybody does that to some extent, but you know what I mean. When the music ends or a "break" comes, I see some people still dancing. That is not dancing to the music, but executing steps. To the Lindy Hoppers, and I speak for them only because we are getting no response from them, the "real" Lindy is not dancing one, two three, but dancing to the ENTIRE musical passage, phrase, melody, song, etc. I regret not knowing more about Lindy.

[MissAlyssa]

As somebody trained first in classical music, then in dance, I'm guessing that SDSalsaguy is at least close, but probably right.
There are beats, then there's music. You can dance to the beats, or you can dance to all of the music.

If you watch top pros dance, lots of the dancing -- the prep for concise moves, or prep for spins, or settling into the hips, and lots of other stuff, happens BETWEEN the beats, but to the music.

That's my guess of what the Lindy Hopper is talking about.

There's the 1-2-3-4 that everybody is using.

But the experienced dancers and/or musicians are using the
1-2-3-4- and the and and the and-a. It's a matter of subdividing the beats.


the "-a" like in samba?

[pygmalion]

the "-a" like in samba?

Yeah. The -a like in samba. I'm not going to get into a bunch of complicated stuff, but, if most of the music we dance to is written in quarter notes, the ands are eighth notes and the -a's are sixteenth notes.

Actually, that's how I'm learning to make a habit of spotting. Mentally count the ands, and spot on the ands. Works for me.

There's a pretty cool breakdown of this on a Bob Powers and Julia Gorchakova bolero technique tape. Bob goes through, counts all the beat subdivisions, and gives a specific action (like where to bend the knee or where to settle the hip) for each subdivided beat. That's why they look like they're dancing thoughout all of the music, not making a move, then waiting for the next beat.


To the Lindy Hoppers, and I speak for them only because we are getting no response from them, the "real" Lindy is not dancing one, two three, but dancing to the ENTIRE musical passage, phrase, melody, song, etc. I regret not knowing more about Lindy.

And yes to this too, but this is even more complicated than beat subdivisions. But if beats are letters, then measures (or six or eight counts) could be considered words, and phrases are like sentences.
Nobody starts talking in the middle of sentences. But people dance in the middle of musical phrases all the time. Not the good dancers, though.

I'll commonly start movements in the middle of general
song phrases while dancing to Jazz or Blues if it's called
for by the music, as the intro and exit of individual
instrument (or instrument sections) is not limited to the
main phrasing, but commonly enters or exits ahead or
behind.

I'll then be having my 'conversation' with another part of
the band, and if a different section of the band interests
me next I can feel free to 'talk' with them.

"What am I missing here? No matter what dance and
where we learn are we not taught to move to a rhythm?
Isn't this our guide?"

My partner is free on many levels to do the same (while
connected), and it's all tied together by that rhythm
Spitfire talked about. That is the underlaying guide that
my partner and I have, while the music plays another
guiding part.

-FF

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
Your comment, "I was over on another message board where someone made a post stating his belief that most ballroom dancers don't understand the importance of the music and simply dance to "the beat", this statement triggered my mind and caused me to review and reevaluate a teaching procedure I have used all these past years where the 'Beat', the rhythm was the primary aspect that I had my students focused on initially. I felt and still do that one has to feel that euphoria of moving in sync with the beat, but also to learn to listen to the music.
However, for years before I understood how to find the lost 'Beat' whatever the reasons, I was always fascinated by dancing, and all during my years in the Army Air Force, I attended USO dances and danced to the music oblivious of the Beat, because I had no concept of this primary aspect of dancing. I was that deficient as a dancer. But nevertheless before I found that illusive Beat, I got out on the dance floor and faked my way through by imitating other dancers' moves and making up a few of my own, just moving with the mood and tempo (not on beat) of the music, and getting by as a dancer which I was and which I wasn't.
For years I faked this 'off the beat' type of dancing with a freedom of interpreting music with body movements.
In retrospect of some fifty years, I realize that dancing to the mood of the music and being influenced by lyrics without being limited by the 'BEAT', I developed a stronger background for interpreting music through dance, which is essential for choreographing routines, the acme of the Dancing Profession, just as architecture is to the Engineering
Profession.
Although I was 'Beat dumb' for years before I became a trained Ballroom Dancer, I learned to listen to the music, not understanding the 'Beat concept', and I attribute what talent I may have as a choreographer to learning to move to the mood and tempo (not the Quarter note beats) of music first, and thereby developed a more expressive feeling of dancing, than I would have if I had started my dancing experience with the 'Mechanical' style, that focuses on the 'Beat' first.
The bottom line: Thanks for triggering my mind Spitfire, I now will take a more liberal view of my teaching procedure by allowing a student to move to music for the first few lessons without emphasizing the 'Beat' and having them enjoy the euphoric freedom of interpreting music guided only by the mood and the tempo (speed) of the music. I think this approach would have two important effects:
1) The student would be hooked on dancing much faster, if not immediately;
2) The student would be much less inclined to feel and look 'Mechanical for the rest of their dancing years.

Spitfire, Thanks to your observation shared with us. I feel it has opened my eyes to a better approach to teaching Ballroom Dancing that was locked in my brain for over a half century, and thanks to your post, I just might write another book titled, 'Words, Music & the Beat' and dedicate it to Spitfire.
Black Sheep, your enlightened instructor.

[MissAlyssa]

I don't worry about when to start. I don't listen for the beats, I just hear a part in the music that I feel is right to dance to and go for it.

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
Music has always been the source of dance; music motivates dancers to move in rhythmic ways they would hardly discover without the various Blues, Jazz, Charleston, Boogie Woogie styles. And Boogie Woogie fans,
talk about music influencing the Dancers, How about Boogie Woogie music influencing Swing dancing. Is it a coincidence that International Swing Contests include a Boogie Woogie Category as one of the contests?
And if you want to download some of the latest original Boogie Woogie compositions of Rob Rio, just log on to his website and Boogie!.
WWW.ROBRIO.COM
Black Sheep, the music maestro

[d nice]

The European dance Boogie Woogie is not danced to Boogie Woogie music, it is danced to uptempo Jump Blues more than anything.

In African tradition there is no difference between music and dance. It isn't one shapes or inspires the other, they are the same. All of life is rhythm.

Swing dancing in its authentic form is the same... the idea of musicality goes beyond dancing to the beat, beyond dancing to the phrasing, beyond dancing to every part of the song, but to dancing to parts of the song that aren't even there.

You are a three dimensional jazz instrument, you don't just follow the lines of music but create them, riffing and using call and response, improvising your own solos.

[Black Sheep]

Rob Rio Fans,
Boogie Woogie is Back with a Bang!
This past Sunday August 17 th, on the 3rd Street "Promenade at the Santa Monica Venue, sponsored by Joshua Castleman, Rob Rio's latest CD release, 'Back in L.A' received an enthusiastic reception by Joshua's Jazz dancers. Before Rob's first song was played there were only three couples on the street dancing with the largest by far audience of all the entertaining events along the 3 blocks of the Promenade, which included, Tango dancing, Salsa dancing's, Break Dancing, and several other dance and musical events.
When Joshua hit the console button for Rob's first Boogie Woogie Stomp, the three couples already in the dance area got with it on that first beat, and from the crowd surrounding the area, one couple at a time joined in dancing to the captivating Rob Rio's Boogie Swing rhythm until I counted several couples dancing the Joshua Jive style with only two couples dancing the strictly WCS. It was a graphic illustration on how 'Music influenced the Dancers'. The style of many of the couples expressed the invigorating bounce of that Boogie Woogie style of music.
I wasn't aware that Joshua already was a Rob Rio Fan, and so will many of you become Rio fans once you hear his music. log on an download your fill of the BW music that shakes everything loose;
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
_________________

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
You thread opens up a subject worth pursuing for the cultural educational
value it can present for us all.
I often wonder why this generation of musicians and dancers, have overlooked the affect that lyrics have had directly on dancing? Tony Bennet made a response to this paraphrased question, "Why do you think pop music is so enduring?" Tony Benedetto replied, "Where else can you tell a love story in 3 minutes?" And there lies an important secret to the lasting popularity of the Jaz/pop music that supplies us Swing dancers with an endless supply of terpsichorean music.
Is it a coincidence that the big bands of the past with their romantic
harmonic lyrics flourished along with the Swing dancing craze of the 40's and 50's?
And maybe in this century, with the revival of the big band music of Bill Haley's in, 'Don't Knock the Rock' or Brian Setzer, Bill Elliot, Dean Mora,, and Rob Rio has influenced the resurgence of the Swing trend of this 21st Century! And how much have these new big bands inspired and influenced 'East side, West side and all around the town Lindy dancers?
There is only one facet of this new Big Band & Quintet music that is
missing! Except for their occasional renditions of the classic jazpop music of the 40's and the 50's, where are the NEW romantic love story lyrics that Tony Benedetto spoke about?
Black Sheep, music Maestro, please!

[DancingMommy]

Let me say first of all that I am not a Lindy Hopper really. But there is nobody really answering Spitfire's question so I'll take a big, fat, flying guess. I hear my Lindy friends say very frequently that ballroomers just dance on the beat and not with the music. Then they mention dancing through the breaks. Then, they cannot explain any further. I think they mean that when the music changes (slows down, stops completely, becomes more or less synchopated) the true Lindy Hopper improvises his/her way through the change. It really beats me, I am just guessing.

I'd say that's a fairly spot-on assesment. There was a pretty stunning example of this in the 2006 or 2007 OSB footage that made it to America's Ballroom Challenge. In the Jive, at one point there were some mad breaks in the music and the dancers just kept on doing their "routines" whether or not they were "with" the music or not. They were definitely dancing on "the beat", not "the music". I would give mad props to any high level competitive Latin dancer who could actually use the music and the breaks and still have a slamming routine. It CAN be done. There's a FINITE amount of music in the world and even less that is "strict tempo".

I'd hazard a guess that sometimes the dancers in question aren't musical connoiseurs with a huge library of genres to listen to and become intimate with. Having an intimacy with the music is the biggest way to "feel" the music. There was one pro Latin couple we saw a while back... I can't remember the guy's name but he was wicked bad. He could hit any break thrown at him and his partner and make it look sweeeet. There was a total difference between their partnership and others on the floor. They "worked" the music, they didn't just *dance* to the beat.

Musically speaking, if you think about it... You can tell when breaks are going to happen. There's a musical progression that you can definitely *feel*. You just have to be familiar with the genre (say boogie woogie or rock-n-roll) and the artists' styles. For instance, I have just about every Aretha song she ever recorded. I know her style "inside out and across". I can tell based on a few bars which *version* of a particular song is being played and I can react accordingly. This is probably what the Lindy Hoppers are trying to articulate but can't really.

One thing one of my bosses/coaches told me is that most music (in the example we were using, Bolero) has breaks at the 8th set of 8 counts. I haven't tried this out with EVERY genre/style, but it sure held true for what we were discussing at the time. It was really eye opening. His advice - and I trust it because he's got an *eye* for what looks good on the floor - is to work in sets of 8 counts of 8 and put your 'highlight' on the 8th set because that's inevitably where the "big finish" will be.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Nice to see this resurrected.

I watched the "Musical Dancing" video and when they discussed VW, they did say that it has phrases of 8 counts and it would be a good idea to make the changes match the end of those phrases.

Although, I was told that as a follower my primary responsibility in this area is to match the guy, even if he is not matching the music.

[DancingMommy]

@tanya - Indeed as a follower it is very important to follow the leader. Even if he's off time. I would say that the time for dealing with "timing" and dancing on music is when you're in practice so you can really get a feel for it. It's something that becomes subconscious. My way of doing this is to make a playlist of every conceivable song that could be construed as [dance type] and then play and dance it through from beginning to end to become very intimate with each one. And believe it or not, I've got some WEIRD choices for some dances. The most bizarre ones I have to date are "One Night In Bangkok" and "Because We Can" for Tango. They are NOT strictly ballroom that's for sure.

Another performance that stood out for it's lack of musicality was the Tango on one of the ABC shows. The music was without a doubt Argentine influenced, but the *dancers* were doing their "routines" with zero regard for the feeling of the music. I'm grateful that our most recent coach worked with us to a lot of Argentine infulenced music so we could adapt our styling to the phrasing of the music.

[tanya_the_dancer]

At one of my recent competitions, the DJ was playing some really unconventional songs, to be creative, I guess, especially for tangos i.e. a tango that starts out as a tango, but morphs into a chacha. It was not exactly well-received, fwiw.

[chica latina]

Many dancers give emphasis to technique and speed... How many people do really practice musicality, listen to the music instead of a beat? and how to dance different to different songs? maybe later in their training.... Could it be that many dancers share space and may not have the ability of practicing to music all the time?.. or is it really difficult for judges to appreciate musicality over other aspects of dancing?

There are some dancers that you can tell are very musical, and as an observer I usually enjoy it over speed and tricks.

[jjs914]

How many people do really practice musicality, listen to the music instead of a beat? and how to dance different to different songs? maybe later in their training.... Could it be that many dancers share space and may not have the ability of practicing to music all the time?.. or is it really difficult for judges to appreciate musicality over other aspects of dancing?

My teacher was just talking to DP and I about this last week (what a coincidence)! We were discussing the need to use our bodies (esp. back muscles) when dancing to a song to fill it out, rather than simply doing the steps...and that, even though we have competitive routines, we should never actually dance the same exact thing twice...because it should be an interpretation of the music.

This is definitely something we have not incorporated into our dancing. I think, Chica, you may be on to something when you say that people don't always get a chance to practice to music. I know DP and I often practice in a studio when lessons are happening and we can't always get the music we'd like.

There's also a separate thread about musicality I was reading earlier in which someone mentioned that ballroom/latin has a tendency to emphasize the steps and technique first...possibly from a standpoint of: knowing how to do a step (weight/connection/etc.) then allows you more opportunity for freedom of expression...or something along those lines...which is probably also a fair point.

[DancingMommy]

At one of my recent competitions, the DJ was playing some really unconventional songs, to be creative, I guess, especially for tangos i.e. a tango that starts out as a tango, but morphs into a chacha. It was not exactly well-received, fwiw.

That falls under the category of "just because you can doesn't mean you should". Unconventional is great for *practice* and maybe even socials, but on a comp floor? A Tango that morphs into Cha Cha? WHAT WAS HE THINKING???

[DancingMommy]

There are some dancers that you can tell are very musical, and as an observer I usually enjoy it over speed and tricks.

Amen. I'd much rather watch a couple dance BASIC steps beautifully to music than all the "risky" choreo with tricks'n'stuff. Flash'n'trash does NOTHING for me.

[DancingMommy]

There's also a separate thread about musicality I was reading earlier in which someone mentioned that ballroom/latin has a tendency to emphasize the steps and technique first...possibly from a standpoint of: knowing how to do a step (weight/connection/etc.) then allows you more opportunity for freedom of expression...or something along those lines...which is probably also a fair point.

Indeed. With the ease of access to all kinds of music these days, it strikes me as odd that people don't mentally rehearse their routines while listening to their MP3s or radios or whathaveyou. Even when I'm on a treadmill, I run routines in my head visualizing the feel and so on. I know I look like an idiot while I'm doing it because I usually "treadmill" to the music. Great musicality, it just LOOKS funny.

[Br0nze]

I think that when Ballroom Dancers start out in their career, their training is not extensive in the music department, so to speak. The emphasis is placed on hearing the major and accented beats first because primarily that is when the steps will be taken, and it is imperative that they are done so, otherwise the dancer will be "off beat," and as a result of that "out of music." As the student progresses, evolved and grows as a dancer, the understanding of music and its construction and what it means should grow as well. Whether or not it does is another question entirely.

I think it is safe to say that Ballroom Dancers hear music differently and count it differently than non-Ballroom Dancers. I think it's also important to note that all music (with of course some exceptions, as there are always some somewhere) is constructed similarly: there is a bar with a certain amount of notes and said number denotes what dance it is, as well as some of the notes are played heavier than others. The tempo with which the music is played is also of importance, as it influences the speed of the steps, the ability to melt into a move, etc.

I would argue that the tempos are where the differences in music arise, and influence how dancers listen to it, which in result influences how dancers dance. I would also argue that while the beats are of importance as they are the signposts to when we (dancers) take steps, what is in between the beats (the half and quarter notes) are just as important. It is all of these things coming together -- tempo, accents, in-between-notes, and of course style/type -- that we can call 'music.'

Just to go off on a slight tangent (or maybe to insanely prove what I am trying to ramble on about), let us compare two pieces of music, for example Paul Oakenfold's "Ready, Steady, Go" and Santana's "Hoy Es Adios."The former is a club mash-up, powerful, rhythmic in its own right. The latter is softer, more sensual, by far the more ballroom-esque of the two. The songs differ in style, tempo, utilization of construction and therefore different in their purposes, but both can be danced to -- without a doubt, and both are indeed "music."

But if a dancer was asked to dance Rumba, prey tell which one of these pieces of music would s/he choose? I would argue for the latter and not the former for several reasons, biggest one being that "Hoy Es Adios" fits in terms of the rhythm and "R,S,G" does not (as far as I can tell...) or at least not as smoothly (tempo, anyone?). And here is where I would argue that a Ballroom Dancer does understand the importance of music. A dancer can tell the difference between a good and a bad song, and it isn't based on feel. It is based on a sound structural assessment of the rhythms and beats in the song: are they are spaced out evenly enough at the correct tempo so that s/he can effectively utilize their body to its full potential? For every style there is a genre of music -- I would not Samba to "Fields of Gold" nor would I Rumba to "Espana Cani."

I think it all depends on the level of interest one has in regard to the music one dances to. Without music, there would be no dance -- so it is imperative that dancers have at least some rudimentary knowledge of music, even if it is just where the beats fall. I also think that if in the initial comment the phrase "understand music" was better defined, a more clear answer could be established. Is it implied that ballroom dancers cannot tell one song from another, or is it implied that we do not understand how music is constructed and how to utilize it effectively through that perspective?

I stand by the argument that as one progresses in one's dancing a general interest in music should accompany, it's only logical. But that may be just me...

It is also noteworthy that the "job" of the dancer is to interpret the rhythms and utilize the body to express said interpretation, and that is why there are different styles of dance and different styles of music -- both "R,S,G" and "H E A" can be interpreted, but (respectively in this sentence) the former would have more justice done by a Hip Hop or Lock-n-Pop dancer, and the latter more so by a Ballroom Dancer or even an Interpretive or Modern one.

[Peaches]

I'd say that's a fairly spot-on assesment. There was a pretty stunning example of this in the 2006 or 2007 OSB footage that made it to America's Ballroom Challenge. In the Jive, at one point there were some mad breaks in the music and the dancers just kept on doing their "routines" whether or not they were "with" the music or not. They were definitely dancing on "the beat", not "the music". I would give mad props to any high level competitive Latin dancer who could actually use the music and the breaks and still have a slamming routine. It CAN be done. There's a FINITE amount of music in the world and even less that is "strict tempo".

I'd hazard a guess that sometimes the dancers in question aren't musical connoiseurs with a huge library of genres to listen to and become intimate with. Having an intimacy with the music is the biggest way to "feel" the music. There was one pro Latin couple we saw a while back... I can't remember the guy's name but he was wicked bad. He could hit any break thrown at him and his partner and make it look sweeeet. There was a total difference between their partnership and others on the floor. They "worked" the music, they didn't just *dance* to the beat.

Musically speaking, if you think about it... You can tell when breaks are going to happen. There's a musical progression that you can definitely *feel*. You just have to be familiar with the genre (say boogie woogie or rock-n-roll) and the artists' styles. For instance, I have just about every Aretha song she ever recorded. I know her style "inside out and across". I can tell based on a few bars which *version* of a particular song is being played and I can react accordingly. This is probably what the Lindy Hoppers are trying to articulate but can't really.

One thing one of my bosses/coaches told me is that most music (in the example we were using, Bolero) has breaks at the 8th set of 8 counts. I haven't tried this out with EVERY genre/style, but it sure held true for what we were discussing at the time. It was really eye opening. His advice - and I trust it because he's got an *eye* for what looks good on the floor - is to work in sets of 8 counts of 8 and put your 'highlight' on the 8th set because that's inevitably where the "big finish" will be.I think this kind of hits the nail on the head.

I don't know if what looks (to me--very important caveat) like disregarding the music and only dancing to the beat is a question of technique over interpretation, or routines versus not (although it does bug me when I can tell a routine is being danced, completely oblivious to what the music is doing), or the dancers' skill level or familiarity with music, or something intrinsic to ballroom dancing itself.

I respect the assertion that good ballroom dancing is taken step by step, but I still don't understand just how that can happen, or how it can be as freely interpretive (as, say, AT) when there are (what seem to me to be) constraints such as each dancing having something of a set "character" to it, or (again, what seem to me to be) physical/technical constraints such as you find in swing dances, what with the step-swing-recover thing I've seen discussed here. Granted, my understanding of Standard/Smooth and Latin/Rhythm approaches nil, I freely admit that. But it would seem kind of difficult to stop, or change direction, or go off into something else if you're in the middle of that cycle. Perhaps that just morphs into a different figure?

Also, though, even aside from the beats and in-between beats (the "and" counts, or "a" counts), there seem to be limitations with regard to what is danced to in the music. Can you take a foxtrot and dance to the lyrics? Can you take a quickstep and have each partner dancing to different bits--perhaps she's marking a basic rhythm while he's dancing some accent/filigree? I don't know, I'm truly asking. Alternatively, if there's a neat sequence (technical term) in the music, can a step be repeated to express that? If music changes from soft, flowing and lyrical to staccato and rhythmic...or romantic to aggressive...or there are call and responses in the music...can the hold or the feel of the bodies be changed to match? If the music is soft, do you feel soft; if the music is sharp and aggressive, does your body feel more rigid and aggressive? Can you match rise and fall to pitch changes, or volume changes, in the music?

Perhaps not, and the limitations come from the music itself. Every foxtrot tends to sound the same, every tango sounding the same, etc. Possibly?

I'm not asking any of the above sarcastically. For me though, with AT, that's a lot of what musicality and dancing with the music comes down to. And it is very very rare that I find a leader who can do that. Most just dance to the beat, which means that regardless of how creative they get with their leading everything still has the tendency to feel the same. Their expression of the music stops with the beats and in-between beats, and misses out on all of the beautiful nuance of the music. And, when I watch ballroom dancing, I see much the same thing. A foxtrot looks like a foxtrot looks like a foxtrot, with very little differentiation regardless of what's playing. But, of course, I'm biased.

Just my $0.04.

[DancingMommy]

Those are some EXCELLENT questions, Peaches.

I'll see if I can take a stab at it for you.

With most dances there is a definite "precedes/follows" sequence. And so when there "challenges" that require a stop and change of direction it can be really difficult to recover. I think the ability to recover is what separates the men from the boys so to speak.

Most dances do have a set "character", but really the music that is used should reflect that character as well. If it doesn't, that's bad on the part of whoever's choosing the music.

I would say you could definitely dance to the lyrics in FT. I wouldn't dare try and do two separate things at the same time in QS. Someone is bound to get hurt!

Alternatively, if there's a neat sequence (technical term) in the music, can a step be repeated to express that? If music changes from soft, flowing and lyrical to staccato and rhythmic...or romantic to aggressive...or there are call and responses in the music...can the hold or the feel of the bodies be changed to match? If the music is soft, do you feel soft; if the music is sharp and aggressive, does your body feel more rigid and aggressive? Can you match rise and fall to pitch changes, or volume changes, in the music?

YES indeed! And it SHOULD happen. Music is not static and neither is dancing. You should ideally be able to feel the music throughout your body and respond to what the music tells you to do all while keeping your amalgamations together in the back of your mind. I'm not a HUGE fan of choreo. I prefer to watch "freestyle" dancing even at the pro level because it really shows the skills off to their best. Anyone can learn a routine and dance it with no regard to the music. It's much harder to respond to the music on the fly.

There will be a certain amount of sameness to most ballroom dances because a foxtrot is still a foxtrot at the end of the day. Sometimes I watch what passes for ballroom on television and I want to throw something at the TV and scream "Get some MUSICALITY PLEASE!!!!!" Strictly Ballroom is still my favorite movie because there are references to this throughout the film.

One thing to note... Men and women typically process music differently. Someone somewhere (how's that for well-referenced, lol) did a study about how men hear the beats and women hear the words. Men and women also process information differently. So I'm really not surprised that it can take men a while to get to that point of just "feeling" and going with the nuances.

Speaking of nuances, there are quite a few of them from one song to another even within a set style - say FT for example. It just takes having heard a blue million of them and really *feeling* the differences. Sometimes you can't even objectively say "oh that was this and the other was that". It's just a feeling you get on the sub-atomic level, kwim?

[cantskiforlife]

Imagine you are at an amusement park and want to ride the ferris wheel. You jump on the very first chair that arrives and are taken for a ride. However, you want to ride with your girlfriend and the chair only fits 1 person. As a result she must sit on your lap. By the end of the ride your legs are in pain and numb and she is upset with you for shoving her off of you when the ride ended.

After she is through yelling at you, you turn around and see a couple casually stand up and walk away from a beautifully plush and cozy chair built for two. Then you see a family of 4 get off another chair and you wonder, was I in the wrong line?

So you coax your girlfriend into trying the ride again but first analyze the ride and determine that the cars come in a pattern. Chair 1 is a family chair, chairs 2,3, and 4 are singles, chair 5 is a double, and chairs 6,7, and 8 are singles again.

And then it occurs to you, if you take the double, the two of you can sit next to each other comfortable. But if you take the family chair, you may even have room to kick up your feet and lounge about.

Now imagine that each of these chairs is a measure of music. Many dancers will commence a routine from the start of any measure and the results will be like the guy in our story. Uncomfortable with a grouchy partner. Now, if you commence your routine from measures 1 or 5, the resulting movement will be more comfortable and will feel more in tune with the music.

Now if you decide to take the ferris wheel again, you will probably wait for either chair 1 or 5 so you have the most room. Similarly, when choosing where to accent your dancing and provide power to the movement, you will find that measures 1 and 5 are typically the most powerful.

[cantskiforlife]

So if my story confused anyone here is another take.

In general, many dancers will start dancing on any measure of music. They will notice that sometimes one measure is more powerful than another, but its is tough for them to explicitly state when that measure will happen.

Music is typically arranged using a clearly defined pattern of measures. I am not sure ballroom dancers (or other dancers) typically follow this pattern or even know it exists.

Here is the pattern (for almost every song out there... except a few secret garden waltz's which add an extra measure every so often).


On a scale of "power" portrayed within the music you have:

Measure 1: Power = 10
Measure 2: Power = 1
Measure 3: Power = 7
Measure 4: Power = 4

This pattern repeats itself again and again so that if you mapped out the power over 8 measures you would have something like:

10 | 1 | 7 | 4 | 8 | 3 | 6 | 5

The next set of 8 measures would start with a little less power, say a 9, and would either with very little power (1) or a lot of power (9) as a means to draw you into the third set of 8 measures which commences a repeat of the entire series.


Knowing this allows you to identify when you will need to accent or soften your dancing.

Listen to a few songs and see if you can pick out this pattern.

[GJB]

Referring to the post starting this thread, I think swing dancers want to take the muscality even farther than what cantskiforlife has described. They (the good ones) adapt their dancing to accent phrasing, hard breaks, repetitive patterns in the music, lyrics, etc even when they are not dancing choreography. So, it's more than just starting on phrase. What if the music is not ideally phrased (there are either more or less than 8 measures in the phrase)? The good swing dancers can improvise and adapt to that. Some other examples:

The lyrics are "round and round and round" so the dancer does a rotational figure.

There is a hard break in the music (usually there is a big build up and then a hard stop) so the dancer strikes a pose to accent the stop.

There is a repetitve sound like the crash of a symbol so the dancer accents that with some kind of shoulder shimmy.

I think the swing dances are more suited to accenting the music in these ways. Esp. WCS because it has an element of free style. It seems that it would be much harder to do in ballroom - except maybe Jive or Swing. I can't even do it in WCS!

I would like to see some Latin or Rhythms couples dance Jive/Swing without a routine and improvise to the music instead !

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'd say that's a fairly spot-on assesment. There was a pretty stunning example of this in the 2006 or 2007 OSB footage that made it to America's Ballroom Challenge. In the Jive, at one point there were some mad breaks in the music and the dancers just kept on doing their "routines" whether or not they were "with" the music or not. They were definitely dancing on "the beat", not "the music".
I saw a similar example during the pro jive event at a recent comp. The song had a really big break. There were pretty clear indications the break was approaching. Also, the break was long enough for couples caught unaware to do something - a simple freeze would have sufficed for this particular break. With one, maybe two exceptions, all the couples (including the national finalists) danced with amazing energy and technique right through the break.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

or is it really difficult for judges to appreciate musicality over other aspects of dancing?
I think it's difficult for judges to examine musicality within the few seconds they have to look at a couple. Say a couple dances with less volume to match a decrescendo in the music. A judge taking a two second snapshot right then might perceive that couple as weak or tentative, rather than dynamic.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Indeed. With the ease of access to all kinds of music these days, it strikes me as odd that people don't mentally rehearse their routines while listening to their MP3s or radios or whathaveyou. Even when I'm on a treadmill, I run routines in my head visualizing the feel and so on. I know I look like an idiot while I'm doing it because I usually "treadmill" to the music. Great musicality, it just LOOKS funny.
That's the thing. I think as long as one sticks to a routine, the musicality is going to be very constrained compared to the WCS dancers GJB mentions who improvise to the music.

[GJB]

Just say No to Choreograpy ===> Improvise !

Years ago there was a professional ice skater who competed without choreography. Like to see some Pro ballroom dancers do it! Still waiting to see Pro Ballroom Jack and Jills; they'd have to improvise.

[drejenpha]

Just say No to Choreograpy ===> Improvise !

Years ago there was a professional ice skater who competed without choreography. Like to see some Pro ballroom dancers do it! Still waiting to see Pro Ballroom Jack and Jills; they'd have to improvise.


With so much of the judging based on technique it's safer to have a routine that you can perform and focus on technique rather than try to lead and follow something on the fly.

In syllabus the vocabulary is restrictive, you'll not always get the most interesting sentences but they'll be grammatically correct. Open gives you lots more words to use, most people use choreography in order to make sure that both partners are making sentences with the same structure. Continuing the English metaphor, improvising by the letter, having the leader suggest a letter and then letting the follow pick the next one, can lead to some very interesting words without regard to what comes before or after. At a competition you want your sentences to make sense which is why complete improvisation isn't the best idea.

I'd like to see Jack and Jill fun events at collegiate comps.

[CANI]

So if my story confused anyone here is another take.

In general, many dancers will start dancing on any measure of music. They will notice that sometimes one measure is more powerful than another, but its is tough for them to explicitly state when that measure will happen.

Music is typically arranged using a clearly defined pattern of measures. I am not sure ballroom dancers (or other dancers) typically follow this pattern or even know it exists.

Here is the pattern (for almost every song out there... except a few secret garden waltz's which add an extra measure every so often).


On a scale of "power" portrayed within the music you have:

Measure 1: Power = 10
Measure 2: Power = 1
Measure 3: Power = 7
Measure 4: Power = 4

This pattern repeats itself again and again so that if you mapped out the power over 8 measures you would have something like:

10 | 1 | 7 | 4 | 8 | 3 | 6 | 5

The next set of 8 measures would start with a little less power, say a 9, and would either with very little power (1) or a lot of power (9) as a means to draw you into the third set of 8 measures which commences a repeat of the entire series.


Knowing this allows you to identify when you will need to accent or soften your dancing.

Listen to a few songs and see if you can pick out this pattern.

Hi cantskiforlife - I just tried this with four songs and it worked! Very cool. I'm going to continue exploring this with some more songs. Thanks very much for taking the time to write these two posts -- very descriptive and helpful. Thank you! CANI

[and123]

I'd like to see Jack and Jill fun events at collegiate comps.

Many of the "fun" dances run at collegiate comps end up with random partner switches, and let's not forget the number of people who register without a partner and then dance with someone they only just met.

Me, I'm still firmly in the lead-follow camp, and I feel like our dancing is never exactly the same twice even if we are dancing the same steps. It's very hard just to dance to counts and beats when there is music. That to me is not dancing. It requires very good communication between the two partners to feel comfortable enough to do this.... to just "know" that promenade position will be held a bit longer, that there will be a bit more extension and shape in that spin turn, etc. When you can achieve that unspoken communication, it is SO good :cool:.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Just say No to Choreograpy ===> Improvise !
I agree!! There's only so much one can inflect a routine to try to match the music. Improvisation opens up so many musical options.

[latingal]

I think it's difficult for judges to examine musicality within the few seconds they have to look at a couple. Say a couple dances with less volume to match a decrescendo in the music. A judge taking a two second snapshot right then might perceive that couple as weak or tentative, rather than dynamic.

A very good point TC, one I have heard discussed by pros and coaches quite a bit.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Many of the "fun" dances run at collegiate comps end up with random partner switches, and let's not forget the number of people who register without a partner and then dance with someone they only just met.

Me, I'm still firmly in the lead-follow camp, and I feel like our dancing is never exactly the same twice even if we are dancing the same steps. It's very hard just to dance to counts and beats when there is music. That to me is not dancing. It requires very good communication between the two partners to feel comfortable enough to do this.... to just "know" that promenade position will be held a bit longer, that there will be a bit more extension and shape in that spin turn, etc. When you can achieve that unspoken communication, it is SO good :cool:.

I compete pro-am in silver standard, but also do standard dancesport series and so far we didn't have any set routine for it - for those who don't know, it is an open level event - although what we do in it is limited by what I can do well (i.e. I'm not that good with scatter chasses in Q, so we don't do them - yet). However, in standard, we have to stay together, so the leader has more control compared to, say, smooth where we are allowed to break the hold, so the follow has to know what to do when that happens.

Anyways, sometimes I do better with the dancesport series than with closed silver standard.

[soshedances]

In syllabus the vocabulary is restrictive, you'll not always get the most interesting sentences but they'll be grammatically correct. Open gives you lots more words to use, most people use choreography in order to make sure that both partners are making sentences with the same structure. Continuing the English metaphor, improvising by the letter, having the leader suggest a letter and then letting the follow pick the next one, can lead to some very interesting words without regard to what comes before or after. At a competition you want your sentences to make sense which is why complete improvisation isn't the best idea.

I like your analogy. In syllabus competition, you want:

your sentences to be grammatically correct (figures/vocab)
and you also want your diction to be perfect (technique)
and your tone of voice appropriate (character/style).

You can still say some beautiful things with a limited vocabulary...and that's what makes syllabus challenging.

[soshedances]

Me, I'm still firmly in the lead-follow camp, and I feel like our dancing is never exactly the same twice even if we are dancing the same steps. It's very hard just to dance to counts and beats when there is music. That to me is not dancing. It requires very good communication between the two partners to feel comfortable enough to do this.... to just "know" that promenade position will be held a bit longer, that there will be a bit more extension and shape in that spin turn, etc. When you can achieve that unspoken communication, it is SO good :cool:.

Agreed. DP and I are enjoying adding shape/musicality as another layer on top of our lead/follow steps.

Really dislike when you dance with another competitor (at a fun dance or social, whatever) and they try to force you through their comp routine...dude, just dance...I'll follow. ;)

[DancingMommy]

I saw a similar example during the pro jive event at a recent comp. The song had a really big break. There were pretty clear indications the break was approaching. Also, the break was long enough for couples caught unaware to do something - a simple freeze would have sufficed for this particular break. With one, maybe two exceptions, all the couples (including the national finalists) danced with amazing energy and technique right through the break.

And ballroom people wonder why they get slammed by the "swing" people. I've taken more heat from both sides trying to get the ballroom people to listen up and dance to the MUSIC!!! and trying to get the "swing" people to stop dogging on the ballroom people that I was about to give up, lol.

It's really painful to watch stuff like you described. It's like watching a trainwreck that could have been prevented but nobody did anything about. You keep whispering to yourself "it's right there.... wait for it.... GO!" and then the "go" never happens.

[DancingMommy]

Just say No to Choreograpy ===> Improvise !

Years ago there was a professional ice skater who competed without choreography. Like to see some Pro ballroom dancers do it! Still waiting to see Pro Ballroom Jack and Jills; they'd have to improvise.

Do you think that's even possible? I'd like to see it too, but I'm thinking it just wouldn't work. And that is a crying shame.

[Peaches]

I know this is the ballroom forum, so I'm hoping not to run out of town for this, but I ran across this video this evening and it's one of the best examples of dancing to the music that I've run across lately. And I know it wasn't choreographed, which I always find impressive. As far as performances go, it's not the most polished, but I find the interpretation of the music to be fantastic and I love the way they interact with each other (and, to a lesser extend, the crowd).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyODNSn97Zg&feature=related

[etp777]

Do we allow refugees in here? :)

[Peaches]

Oh...right. *sniff*kicked-puppy eyes*sniff*slinks home to AT forum*

[Easy]

Beat is very important, but when you see a couple dancing with the same energy, expression, and feeling....let's say in cha cha, yet the songs each time vary with their style, speed, and tone, I would say they weren't very musical. They'd be on time technically, but artistically, in my opinion, they'd be lacking.

[DancingMommy]

I know this is the ballroom forum, so I'm hoping not to run out of town for this, but I ran across this video this evening and it's one of the best examples of dancing to the music that I've run across lately. And I know it wasn't choreographed, which I always find impressive. As far as performances go, it's not the most polished, but I find the interpretation of the music to be fantastic and I love the way they interact with each other (and, to a lesser extend, the crowd).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyODNSn97Zg&feature=related


That's lovely!

[samina]

interesting coincidence: massimo giorgianni & alessia manfredini are hosting a workshop on musicality in october...if you're up for a trip to vigevano, italy! :D

details:
"You want to get more musical?
You woul like to understand more in musicality?
YOU WOULD LIKE TO FELL THE POWER OF MUSIC?
COME TO THE WORKASFIRE"

Host: Massimo Giorgianni & Alessia Manfredini
Type: Education - Workshop
Start Time: Friday, October 2, 2009 at 12:00pm
End Time: Sunday, October 4, 2009 at 8:00pm
Location: DANCEasFIRE Studio
Street: C.so Novara
City/Town: Vigevano, Italy
Phone: 393386861476
Email: info@danceasfire.comDescription
Presso la sede della DANCEASFIRE di Massimo Giorgianni & Alessia Manfredini il 3° WORKasFIRE del 2009 dal titolo:
IL POTERE DELLA MUSICA
Insegnanti invitati: Barbara Ambroz, schiavo Augusto, Giuseppe Galizzi e.....


In the DANCEASFIRE's STUDIO of Massimo Giorgianni & Alessia Manfredini the 3rd WORKasFIRE of 2009 from the title:
THE POWER OF MUSIC
guest teachers: Barbara Ambroz,Schiavo Augusto,Giuseppe Galizza and.......
For more information please contact:
Massimo Giorgianni & Alessia Manfredini
info@danceasfire.com
tel. + fax.:+39 0381312465
mobile: +39 3386861476

[Terpsichorean Clod]

waltzgirl started a similar thread a while back: Musicality in Ballroom (http://danceforums.com/showthread.php?t=16301)

[MultiFaceted Dancer]

Beat is very important, but when you see a couple dancing with the same energy, expression, and feeling....let's say in cha cha, yet the songs each time vary with their style, speed, and tone, I would say they weren't very musical. They'd be on time technically, but artistically, in my opinion, they'd be lacking.
In my opinion,The interaction between the couple is just as important as any other factors mentioned above. It's as if, each partner brings thier own Style,Grace,Sexuality,Creativity,Technical Ability,and of course,Musicality into the partnership(whether it's High level Competitive-
or any other level) but also,the Connection with each other in it's truest
form that I feel, would be the Distinguishing Trait to Capture the Hearts of all who watched and Judged.

[etp777]

Oh...right. *sniff*kicked-puppy eyes*sniff*slinks home to AT forum*


I guess we can let it slide. This time. ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I know this is the ballroom forum, so I'm hoping not to run out of town for this, but I ran across this video this evening and it's one of the best examples of dancing to the music that I've run across lately. And I know it wasn't choreographed, which I always find impressive. As far as performances go, it's not the most polished, but I find the interpretation of the music to be fantastic and I love the way they interact with each other (and, to a lesser extend, the crowd).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyODNSn97Zg&feature=related
:applause: Wow! I really enjoyed that! So much variation in timing, rhythm, speed! And it looks like they're actually employing the musical definition of syncopation. Is there a concept of on-time/off-time in AT?

Was this performance during a social? Have the dancers heard the song before?

Thanks for sharing, Peaches!