We don't understand the importance of the music?

[Spitfire]

I was over on another message board where someone made a post stating his belief that most ballroom dancers don't understand the importance of the music and simply dance to "the beat". :o

What am I missing here? No matter what dance and where we learn are we not taught to move to a rhythm? Isn't this our guide?

Just don't know where this viewpoint is coming from. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

While I don't know the context in which said comment was made I'll hazard a guess at the intent...

Take the case of a relatively new dancer who, to date, has only been dancing Latin. Now have them start doing standard or smooth. Their motions will never fit the music because they’re always landing exactly on the beat as you would in any of the Latin dances.

Or take the case of the even newer, beginning dancer. Maybe they even have a few steps and patterns under their belt already that they can execute “on time.” But it doesn’t really look like dancing yet. Why not? Aside from more advanced technique, one problem is likely to be that they transfer their weight too quickly – “boom” its done. The problem here is that there’s more then just beats to music, and if they only use the beats their motions would be very rigid and choppy – it’s the “oozing” between beats that really makes top notch dancing stand out (at least IMHO).

A while back I heard one teacher say that the better the dancer the more they liked slow music. Why? Because they actually knew what to do with their bodies to fill it, whereas newer dancers had already “arrived” and ended up just sitting there waiting for the next beat.

My guess is that this is the overall dynamic that was intended. But then again… :?:

[Spitfire]

This was from a post I saw over on a Lindy Hop board, but the person posting it also does some ballroom. He made no mention of technique or anything more specific and thus the assertion puzzles me. :o

[MissAlyssa]

Who knows. Maybe he feels dancers don't "respect" music because we don't necissarily listen to the music..it's more like we feel the beat. ???

[will35]

Let me say first of all that I am not a Lindy Hopper really. But there is nobody really answering Spitfire's question so I'll take a big, fat, flying guess. I hear my Lindy friends say very frequently that ballroomers just dance on the beat and not with the music. Then they mention dancing through the breaks. Then, they cannot explain any further. I think they mean that when the music changes (slows down, stops completely, becomes more or less synchopated) the true Lindy Hopper improvises his/her way through the change. It really beats me, I am just guessing.

[pygmalion]

As somebody trained first in classical music, then in dance, I'm guessing that SDSalsaguy is at least close, but probably right.
There are beats, then there's music. You can dance to the beats, or you can dance to all of the music.

If you watch top pros dance, lots of the dancing -- the prep for concise moves, or prep for spins, or settling into the hips, and lots of other stuff, happens BETWEEN the beats, but to the music.

That's my guess of what the Lindy Hopper is talking about.

There's the 1-2-3-4 that everybody is using.

But the experienced dancers and/or musicians are using the
1-2-3-4- and the and and the and-a. It's a matter of subdividing the beats.

[will35]

I don't know how I got into this, but I guess this will be my last word. There are phrases in music. If you know classical music, you know that they don't always come in eights or sixes. To dance to the beat is easy. Just do the steps you learn in class, whether they are eights or sixes or whatever. But my Lindy friends learned not from classes, but from dancing. I understand that everybody does that to some extent, but you know what I mean. When the music ends or a "break" comes, I see some people still dancing. That is not dancing to the music, but executing steps. To the Lindy Hoppers, and I speak for them only because we are getting no response from them, the "real" Lindy is not dancing one, two three, but dancing to the ENTIRE musical passage, phrase, melody, song, etc. I regret not knowing more about Lindy.

[MissAlyssa]

As somebody trained first in classical music, then in dance, I'm guessing that SDSalsaguy is at least close, but probably right.
There are beats, then there's music. You can dance to the beats, or you can dance to all of the music.

If you watch top pros dance, lots of the dancing -- the prep for concise moves, or prep for spins, or settling into the hips, and lots of other stuff, happens BETWEEN the beats, but to the music.

That's my guess of what the Lindy Hopper is talking about.

There's the 1-2-3-4 that everybody is using.

But the experienced dancers and/or musicians are using the
1-2-3-4- and the and and the and-a. It's a matter of subdividing the beats.


the "-a" like in samba?

[pygmalion]

the "-a" like in samba?

Yeah. The -a like in samba. I'm not going to get into a bunch of complicated stuff, but, if most of the music we dance to is written in quarter notes, the ands are eighth notes and the -a's are sixteenth notes.

Actually, that's how I'm learning to make a habit of spotting. Mentally count the ands, and spot on the ands. Works for me.

There's a pretty cool breakdown of this on a Bob Powers and Julia Gorchakova bolero technique tape. Bob goes through, counts all the beat subdivisions, and gives a specific action (like where to bend the knee or where to settle the hip) for each subdivided beat. That's why they look like they're dancing thoughout all of the music, not making a move, then waiting for the next beat.


To the Lindy Hoppers, and I speak for them only because we are getting no response from them, the "real" Lindy is not dancing one, two three, but dancing to the ENTIRE musical passage, phrase, melody, song, etc. I regret not knowing more about Lindy.

And yes to this too, but this is even more complicated than beat subdivisions. But if beats are letters, then measures (or six or eight counts) could be considered words, and phrases are like sentences.
Nobody starts talking in the middle of sentences. But people dance in the middle of musical phrases all the time. Not the good dancers, though.

I'll commonly start movements in the middle of general
song phrases while dancing to Jazz or Blues if it's called
for by the music, as the intro and exit of individual
instrument (or instrument sections) is not limited to the
main phrasing, but commonly enters or exits ahead or
behind.

I'll then be having my 'conversation' with another part of
the band, and if a different section of the band interests
me next I can feel free to 'talk' with them.

"What am I missing here? No matter what dance and
where we learn are we not taught to move to a rhythm?
Isn't this our guide?"

My partner is free on many levels to do the same (while
connected), and it's all tied together by that rhythm
Spitfire talked about. That is the underlaying guide that
my partner and I have, while the music plays another
guiding part.

-FF

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
Your comment, "I was over on another message board where someone made a post stating his belief that most ballroom dancers don't understand the importance of the music and simply dance to "the beat", this statement triggered my mind and caused me to review and reevaluate a teaching procedure I have used all these past years where the 'Beat', the rhythm was the primary aspect that I had my students focused on initially. I felt and still do that one has to feel that euphoria of moving in sync with the beat, but also to learn to listen to the music.
However, for years before I understood how to find the lost 'Beat' whatever the reasons, I was always fascinated by dancing, and all during my years in the Army Air Force, I attended USO dances and danced to the music oblivious of the Beat, because I had no concept of this primary aspect of dancing. I was that deficient as a dancer. But nevertheless before I found that illusive Beat, I got out on the dance floor and faked my way through by imitating other dancers' moves and making up a few of my own, just moving with the mood and tempo (not on beat) of the music, and getting by as a dancer which I was and which I wasn't.
For years I faked this 'off the beat' type of dancing with a freedom of interpreting music with body movements.
In retrospect of some fifty years, I realize that dancing to the mood of the music and being influenced by lyrics without being limited by the 'BEAT', I developed a stronger background for interpreting music through dance, which is essential for choreographing routines, the acme of the Dancing Profession, just as architecture is to the Engineering
Profession.
Although I was 'Beat dumb' for years before I became a trained Ballroom Dancer, I learned to listen to the music, not understanding the 'Beat concept', and I attribute what talent I may have as a choreographer to learning to move to the mood and tempo (not the Quarter note beats) of music first, and thereby developed a more expressive feeling of dancing, than I would have if I had started my dancing experience with the 'Mechanical' style, that focuses on the 'Beat' first.
The bottom line: Thanks for triggering my mind Spitfire, I now will take a more liberal view of my teaching procedure by allowing a student to move to music for the first few lessons without emphasizing the 'Beat' and having them enjoy the euphoric freedom of interpreting music guided only by the mood and the tempo (speed) of the music. I think this approach would have two important effects:
1) The student would be hooked on dancing much faster, if not immediately;
2) The student would be much less inclined to feel and look 'Mechanical for the rest of their dancing years.

Spitfire, Thanks to your observation shared with us. I feel it has opened my eyes to a better approach to teaching Ballroom Dancing that was locked in my brain for over a half century, and thanks to your post, I just might write another book titled, 'Words, Music & the Beat' and dedicate it to Spitfire.
Black Sheep, your enlightened instructor.

[MissAlyssa]

I don't worry about when to start. I don't listen for the beats, I just hear a part in the music that I feel is right to dance to and go for it.

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
Music has always been the source of dance; music motivates dancers to move in rhythmic ways they would hardly discover without the various Blues, Jazz, Charleston, Boogie Woogie styles. And Boogie Woogie fans,
talk about music influencing the Dancers, How about Boogie Woogie music influencing Swing dancing. Is it a coincidence that International Swing Contests include a Boogie Woogie Category as one of the contests?
And if you want to download some of the latest original Boogie Woogie compositions of Rob Rio, just log on to his website and Boogie!.
WWW.ROBRIO.COM
Black Sheep, the music maestro

[d nice]

The European dance Boogie Woogie is not danced to Boogie Woogie music, it is danced to uptempo Jump Blues more than anything.

In African tradition there is no difference between music and dance. It isn't one shapes or inspires the other, they are the same. All of life is rhythm.

Swing dancing in its authentic form is the same... the idea of musicality goes beyond dancing to the beat, beyond dancing to the phrasing, beyond dancing to every part of the song, but to dancing to parts of the song that aren't even there.

You are a three dimensional jazz instrument, you don't just follow the lines of music but create them, riffing and using call and response, improvising your own solos.

[Black Sheep]

Rob Rio Fans,
Boogie Woogie is Back with a Bang!
This past Sunday August 17 th, on the 3rd Street "Promenade at the Santa Monica Venue, sponsored by Joshua Castleman, Rob Rio's latest CD release, 'Back in L.A' received an enthusiastic reception by Joshua's Jazz dancers. Before Rob's first song was played there were only three couples on the street dancing with the largest by far audience of all the entertaining events along the 3 blocks of the Promenade, which included, Tango dancing, Salsa dancing's, Break Dancing, and several other dance and musical events.
When Joshua hit the console button for Rob's first Boogie Woogie Stomp, the three couples already in the dance area got with it on that first beat, and from the crowd surrounding the area, one couple at a time joined in dancing to the captivating Rob Rio's Boogie Swing rhythm until I counted several couples dancing the Joshua Jive style with only two couples dancing the strictly WCS. It was a graphic illustration on how 'Music influenced the Dancers'. The style of many of the couples expressed the invigorating bounce of that Boogie Woogie style of music.
I wasn't aware that Joshua already was a Rob Rio Fan, and so will many of you become Rio fans once you hear his music. log on an download your fill of the BW music that shakes everything loose;
Black Sheep, your friendly instructor.
_________________

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
You thread opens up a subject worth pursuing for the cultural educational
value it can present for us all.
I often wonder why this generation of musicians and dancers, have overlooked the affect that lyrics have had directly on dancing? Tony Bennet made a response to this paraphrased question, "Why do you think pop music is so enduring?" Tony Benedetto replied, "Where else can you tell a love story in 3 minutes?" And there lies an important secret to the lasting popularity of the Jaz/pop music that supplies us Swing dancers with an endless supply of terpsichorean music.
Is it a coincidence that the big bands of the past with their romantic
harmonic lyrics flourished along with the Swing dancing craze of the 40's and 50's?
And maybe in this century, with the revival of the big band music of Bill Haley's in, 'Don't Knock the Rock' or Brian Setzer, Bill Elliot, Dean Mora,, and Rob Rio has influenced the resurgence of the Swing trend of this 21st Century! And how much have these new big bands inspired and influenced 'East side, West side and all around the town Lindy dancers?
There is only one facet of this new Big Band & Quintet music that is
missing! Except for their occasional renditions of the classic jazpop music of the 40's and the 50's, where are the NEW romantic love story lyrics that Tony Benedetto spoke about?
Black Sheep, music Maestro, please!