What to do in a class where you're in over your head

[Sunny Daye]

Hello everyone. Have been lurking for a while and have really enjoyed the discussions. I'm now ready to jump in with one of my recent issues, to get everyone's opinion, views, experience, advice. Here's the issue:

First off, I'm a middle-aged guy who's been dancing tango for about 18 months, so I'm still in the beginner's stage. I've taken many, many classes and many privates, but I am not a natural dancer, so what takes others a few times to learn takes me many, many, many times. Did I mention that it takes me many times to learn something new?

I recently attended classes with a couple from Argentina. Very nice (and young) couple, who spend two classes teaching, for me, very complicated steps. I was borderline in over my head, but stuck with it for the two classes. I was not told that the classes were for "advanced" dancers, and there were some naturally talented beginners in attendance.

But most of the others, especially the women, were ahead of me, so my poor partners just had to stand there over and over and see me struggle to learn the steps. Several times both of us just stood looking at the others, trying to figure out what the hell I was suppose to be doing. It felt pathetic and I left feeling not energized and excited, but sick to my stomach.

So my question: should I have just given up the ghost and sat down and observed? I know it must be miserable for a female to stand there while a klutzy guy tries to learn three steps or more.

That's my story-- any feedback welcomed. And thanks in advance.

[newbie]

"We have presented you a lot of material, but you don't have to be able to do everything, pick the part that you can do and it will be fine."
That was from Alejandra Hobert http://www.adrianyalejandra.com/home.htm after a group class.

Also, you mentioned that you took many classes with many teachers. But instead of taking, say, two different classes with two different teachers each week, why not taking twice the same class? Many teachers have two beginner classes per week.

[Angel HI]

Excellent advice from Newbie. In a workshop taught by the great Cecilia Del Carmen Gonzalez, a fellow asked, "How do I remember all of these patterns when I go home?" Without missing a breathe, she replied, "Why would you want to do that for?" After the stunned responses from the class that ranged from silence to gasps to laughter, she continued to explain that her workshops were for working through muscle and body training; partnering exercizes; discovering possibilities...please don't waste your time trying to remember a particular step or pattern, they will develop as your understanding of AT grows."

The point is that if you are in a class that is over your head, yes, it might be difficult for you and your partners, but everyone can learn something if they choose to. Perhaps, you will not learn the 'pattern', but you will learn an element; and, your partners might learn how to follow someone who isn't an advanced dancer or teacher. A good partner will not mind that you are struggling.

Take as many beginning classes as possible regardless of how advanced you become. Foundations, whether under bridges or in dancing, need to be visited often. Repeating a class, as Newbie mentioned, is relative to practicing only with the teacher there to help.

See you around the DF.

[Heather2007]

Hello everyone. Have been lurking for a while and have really enjoyed the discussions. I'm now ready to jump in with one of my recent issues, to get everyone's opinion, views, experience, advice. Here's the issue:

First off, I'm a middle-aged guy who's been dancing tango for about 18 months, so I'm still in the beginner's stage. I've taken many, many classes and many privates, but I am not a natural dancer, so what takes others a few times to learn takes me many, many, many times. Did I mention that it takes me many times to learn something new?

I recently attended classes with a couple from Argentina. Very nice (and young) couple, who spend two classes teaching, for me, very complicated steps. I was borderline in over my head, but stuck with it for the two classes. I was not told that the classes were for "advanced" dancers, and there were some naturally talented beginners in attendance.

But most of the others, especially the women, were ahead of me, so my poor partners just had to stand there over and over and see me struggle to learn the steps. Several times both of us just stood looking at the others, trying to figure out what the hell I was suppose to be doing. It felt pathetic and I left feeling not energized and excited, but sick to my stomach.

So my question: should I have just given up the ghost and sat down and observed? I know it must be miserable for a female to stand there while a klutzy guy tries to learn three steps or more.

That's my story-- any feedback welcomed. And thanks in advance.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Never give up the ghost. That you put yourself in a situation that you discovered was way ahead of your game is a positive, not a negative. Diving in head first is the best way to raise one's game (in all walks and not just dancing) and my philosophy is, is that the negativity is only in the person who has quickly forgotten how they once drove with an "L" plate and NOT the person that is still wearing it. And of course, dare I be so bold as to mention 3 words: The Hare. The Tortoise. The Race. :applause:

[Me]

But most of the others, especially the women, were ahead of me, so my poor partners just had to stand there over and over and see me struggle to learn the steps. Several times both of us just stood looking at the others, trying to figure out what the hell I was suppose to be doing. It felt pathetic and I left feeling not energized and excited, but sick to my stomach.



Welcome to the DF. :)

I want to tell you some tango secrets about 'advanced' dancers. (Or, rather, the not-so-advanced dancers who put on a good show.) Some of what I am about to say is rather negative, but sometimes the truth hurts.

If the woman is truly an advanced dancer and truly knows what she is supposed to be doing in a pattern, it is possible to 'reverse engineer' the lead. So if the two of you stood and looked around to learn the pattern from other people, I must say that the woman didn't know what she was doing either. (Not as advanced as she wants you to believe, now is she?)

It is very possible that while looking around at other dancers to learn the pattern, you became increasingly confused because people simply were not dancing the given pattern. The advanced dancers sometimes cover their inability to master the given patterns by dancing a different pattern, for they do not want to be seen 'struggling.' (For you see, they have already learned what is in the class - it bores them, so they must occupy their great minds with greater things... or so they wish for you to believe.)

You will learn as you continue your studies that many 'advanced' dancers have 'progressed' beyond the point of learning. This is to say, they have placed limitations upon themselves, as now they no longer allow themselves to learn - they 'already know' everything. A master workshop is not a place to learn - Rather, it is a place to 'show out' and be 'discovered.' The last thing you will see from these dancers is a struggle to learn, for this is an admission of not already knowing something which is, for them, an admission of weakness. Trust me. I know.

It has been said before by other dancers here but I will say it again - Don't give up!

P.S. We may actually know each other, as I sometimes travel to Louisiana for milongas. Grab me for a dance. Or three. Or twelve. I'm serious. I actually prefer to dance with 'newer' dancers - they don't throw me around and step on me like some of the 'advanced' dancers do.

[Heather2007]

Welcome to the DF. :)

If the woman is truly an advanced dancer and truly knows what she is supposed to be doing in a pattern, it is possible to 'reverse engineer' the lead. So if the two of you stood and looked around to learn the pattern from other people, I must say that the woman didn't know what she was doing either. (Not as advanced as she wants you to believe, now is she?)

The advanced dancers sometimes cover their inability to master the given patterns by dancing a different pattern, for they do not want to be seen 'struggling.' (For you see, they have already learned what is in the class - it bores them, so they must occupy their great minds with greater things... or so they wish for you to believe.)


Brilliant response.

[bastet]

Hello everyone. Have been lurking for a while and have really enjoyed the discussions. I'm now ready to jump in with one of my recent issues, to get everyone's opinion, views, experience, advice. Here's the issue:

First off, I'm a middle-aged guy who's been dancing tango for about 18 months, so I'm still in the beginner's stage. I've taken many, many classes and many privates, but I am not a natural dancer, so what takes others a few times to learn takes me many, many, many times. Did I mention that it takes me many times to learn something new?

I recently attended classes with a couple from Argentina. Very nice (and young) couple, who spend two classes teaching, for me, very complicated steps. I was borderline in over my head, but stuck with it for the two classes. I was not told that the classes were for "advanced" dancers, and there were some naturally talented beginners in attendance.

But most of the others, especially the women, were ahead of me, so my poor partners just had to stand there over and over and see me struggle to learn the steps. Several times both of us just stood looking at the others, trying to figure out what the hell I was suppose to be doing. It felt pathetic and I left feeling not energized and excited, but sick to my stomach.

So my question: should I have just given up the ghost and sat down and observed? I know it must be miserable for a female to stand there while a klutzy guy tries to learn three steps or more.

That's my story-- any feedback welcomed. And thanks in advance.

You definitely shouldn't give up. People learn at different rates..even those people you may think of as "advanced" when you look at them have the same problems and take multiple times to learn things sometimes. I think it is MUCH more rare fora person to be a "natural" dancer as you say, and pick things up quickly. It's much more common for people to need to work on things multiple times.

Workshops, in particular, are usually filled with information overload. The pace is generally a lot faster than when you do group classes. The teachers have a fair amount of matierial to cover. The first weekend workshop I ever did left me feeling that way. I got used to it after a while (and got used to taking lots of notes).

The way I've come to think of workshops is...you probably aren't going to remember all of it, becasue they tend to be intense. But also, becasue they are intense and you immerse youself, let yourself learn and absorb, your dancing begins to change. You may not recognize it (but other might) and you may be frustrated for awhile, but the changes will happen anyway- so keep it up. :)

[Ampster]

I too was once where you were at. Here's my advice:

1) Don't give up: proficiency only comes with practice, born of perseverance. If you give up, you won't practice, and you're not going to get any better

2) Be patient: Tango is unlike any other social dance. It is the most complicated to learn and do. But, it is the most beautiful and most rewarding one. To attain a level of proficiency, one must take the time and effort to learn (see #1)

3) Avoid a VERY common beginner's mistake: All too often, some people who take up Argentine Tango try to learn as fast as possible. They take all the classes they can attend, sometimes jumping levels even before they're ready. By my observations, AT is not something you "Fast track." The people I've seen who adopt this approach end up giving up in frustration. Be patient (See # 1 & 2) and be proficient at BASICS first and foremost, THEN move on

Adult learning theory postulates that you retain 50% of the lesson right after the lesson, if you understood it. If you did not, it diminishes proportionately. As time passes, the memory lapses unless you practice it to commit it to memory (mental & muscle).

Going by this, if you didn't get it in the first place, it would be reasonable to think that you'll probably forget it after one day. If you do not have a grasp of the basics (which all of the other stuff is built on), then you will certainly be challenged

4) Spread your learning: When you learn something YOU LIKE in class you'll remember it better. Go to the practicas/milongas and dance what you've learned (of course you should have mastered the basics first). Get comfortable, keep it simple, DON'T TEACH OTHER BEGINNERS. Go back to class, repeat cycle

5) Attend practicas & milongas: Going to class will only get you so far. You need to take it to the floor. Dance a level beneath what you think you are. Get comfortable. When it becomes second nature (after several practicas & milongas), then raise your standard a bit. Repeat cycle (See # 1, 2, 3, 4)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Although I don't do AT, this post sort of grabbed m attention. This was how my encounter with AT felt. I wonder if there is something about AT which makes it harder in the beginning. I mean, in ballroom, especially american style, we have things like underarm turn, which provides a bit of an instant gratification (man raises his arm, the girl turns - yay, we learned something :) ).

[Dave Bailey]

Although I don't do AT, this post sort of grabbed m attention. This was how my encounter with AT felt. I wonder if there is something about AT which makes it harder in the beginning.
I've said it before, but I think different dances have differently-angled learning curves, and that AT is a particularly steep learning curve.

This doesn't mean it's necessarily a more "difficult dance" - I'm also of the opinion that all dancers are (in the long run) equally difficult to get to a high level at - but it does mean it's more difficult at the start of the learning process.

I mean, in ballroom, especially american style, we have things like underarm turn, which provides a bit of an instant gratification (man raises his arm, the girl turns - yay, we learned something :) ).
A lot of AT teachers focus much more on technique, much earlier on. Although some teachers can take the easy route and teach patterns, their classes tend to churn out dancers who only know patterns.

[Steve Pastor]

I wrote this about a week ago. I think it's still true.

One thing that makes AT difficult for leaders is that we are told to not move our arm and hands independent of our bodies. So, right away we are asked to not only learn where we step, but we have to also use the motion of our upper body to lead.
There is the added complication that we aren't always stepping on the opposite foot as our partner is stepping. This ups the ante about knowing where our partner's weight is, and which foot will move when we step.
There is also the problem of NOT stepping while our partner steps, which is a rather unusual concept.
These are some of the reasons that AT beginners can feel overwhelmed. I'd been doing other partner dances for nearly 10 years before I started, and many people asked me why I didn't just quit since I was so frustrated. I asked myself that, too, many times.

[tanya_the_dancer]

I wrote this about a week ago. I think it's still true.

One thing that makes AT difficult for leaders is that we are told to not move our arm and hands independent of our bodies. So, right away we are asked to not only learn where we step, but we have to also use the motion of our upper body to lead.
There is the added complication that we aren't always stepping on the opposite foot as our partner is stepping. This ups the ante about knowing where our partner's weight is, and which foot will move when we step.
There is also the problem of NOT stepping while our partner steps, which is a rather unusual concept.
These are some of the reasons that AT beginners can feel overwhelmed. I'd been doing other partner dances for nearly 10 years before I started, and many people asked me why I didn't just quit since I was so frustrated. I asked myself that, too, many times.

I was taking group classes for about 2 years at the point when I tried AT. I felt extremely overwhelmed. I wonder how it would feel now that I know a lot more about dancing.

[Angel HI]

I have said it before, and I'll stick to it.....

AT is one of the most natural dances on the planet. At the beginning, perhaps the stage where you are, it should not be complicated. It is based completely upon natural walking and natural movement. Steve's point is noted, that as you learn the intricacies of proper movement, lead, follow, implication, and application, yes, difficulties arise.

Feeling "...in over [your] head..." is natural at your stage. But, remember, so is the tango. In the beginning, the bottom line is to just walk. Keep dancing, and look me up during some of my time in LA.

[newbie]

As a beginning leader you'll feel you're in a dead end during the classes, with followers skipping you (pretending they don't see you when 'trade partners!' comes) because you're not as good as the other leaders because you can exercize less on the taught pattern because the followers are skipping you. Same dead end feeling in milongas, you'll find that the followers prefer to dance with a leader more proficient than themselves and if by chance you once find a complete beginner, the next time you'll see her in a milonga she'll already be better than you because A.T is easier for followers. 'Go to milongas' they all say, but what for when the followers prefer to sit and wait for a good leader rather than dance with you.

The help won't come from the followers but from the other beginning leaders who, as time goes by, will appear. I still can remember the faces of two or three guys who made my life much easier; suddenly I wasn't the worst leader any more.

[Sunny Daye]

Holy smokes -- I didn't anticipate the quickness and thoughtfulness of the replies. Thanks to all of you for helping out a not so new beginner. This is a great forum.

[Sunny Daye]

It is very possible that while looking around at other dancers to learn the pattern, you became increasingly confused because people simply were not dancing the given pattern. The advanced dancers sometimes cover their inability to master the given patterns by dancing a different pattern, for they do not want to be seen 'struggling.' (For you see, they have already learned what is in the class - it bores them, so they must occupy their great minds with greater things... or so they wish for you to believe.)


That is precisely what was happening. Thanks for confirming that.

And yes indeed we have met -- and I've seen your extraordinary dancing several times!

[bordertangoman]

I'm a slow learner, which can be frustrating when i watch other people doing what's been taught in the class, but like Aesop's tortoise I know a few months down the line I will be able to do the move.

So my approach to a class is to understand what is required and absorb it mentally then practice it when I can. The more advanced moves become easier with experience and confidence and an understanding that there is an exchange of energy; so the dance can become very dynamic - in a Newtonian sense.

So just enjoy what you CAN do and let the progress come with time and 'Tango miles'

There are people's differing conceptions of what is 'advanced' and there are some people with very inflated egos out there!!

[calandra]

I agree with the others – don’t give up. We all keep waiting for the day when we make that “breakthrough”. I am told it will come but in the meantime we soldier on.

It’s like the old joke about the taxi driver asked the way to Carnegie Hall – Practice.
I keep a notebook and write down the basics of the steps we do in class afterwards. Then I practice them at home, or on the train platform, or in the bathroom at work, or pushing the supermarket cart. Anywhere you can walk you can think about the basics – changing weight, dissociation of the chest, balance. Listen to the music as often as you can and just try to feel the rhythm. From your initial post, it sounds like you are seriously lacking in confidence. A lot of us feel the same way, but there is no need to put yourself down. We need more leaders like you – who understand that it’s complicated to learn to lead and are willing to go through the time and effort to go to class and try to improve. It does no one any good in a class or a milongas when a leader blames the woman for either (i) anticipating because she knows the step and you don’t; or (ii) standing there doing nothing because even though she knows the step she doesn’t feel the lead.

You may never be Baryshnikov, but the fact that you are dedicated to it and want to learn is great. I once had a wonderful time dancing swing with a guy in a wheelchair – he had a great sense of the music, and was enjoying himself immensely. I for one would rather dance with a beginner with a good sense of the rhythm and the music than someone throwing in a lot of steps that bear no relation to the timing of the music.

[bordertangoman]

I agree with the others – don’t give up. We all keep waiting for the day when we make that “breakthrough”. I am told it will come but in the meantime we soldier on.

It’s like the old joke about the taxi driver asked the way to Carnegie Hall – Practice.



One tango teacher used to say; "its quite easy once you've done it a thousand times"

[Heather2007]

I wrote this about a week ago. I think it's still true.

One thing that makes AT difficult for leaders is that we are told to not move our arm and hands independent of our bodies. So, right away we are asked to not only learn where we step, but we have to also use the motion of our upper body to lead.
There is the added complication that we aren't always stepping on the opposite foot as our partner is stepping. This ups the ante about knowing where our partner's weight is, and which foot will move when we step.
There is also the problem of NOT stepping while our partner steps, which is a rather unusual concept.
These are some of the reasons that AT beginners can feel overwhelmed. I'd been doing other partner dances for nearly 10 years before I started, and many people asked me why I didn't just quit since I was so frustrated. I asked myself that, too, many times.

I see some leads stop in the middle of the dancefloor to look down, checking to where the follower's feet are. When I lead and this happens, I merely improvise my way around it by dancing now in the cross-walk system - either walking on the outside or straight ahead but with toe sacadas - (follower steps back with a wide arc to the side before bringing the foot behind her). If my follower steps before being led again, I improvise my way out and continuing dance (if I get the chance, I'll gently whisper to her to wait for my lead before moving on). Last weekend, my follower anticipated my lead and went executed a backward ocho on my right. I stepped forward, used my back foot to knudge her feet together, brought her around and back facing me, whispered to her to wait for my lead and carried on. I have often danced with many a good milonga lead who, despite what the teachers say (and sometimes it is this one particular teacher who often does it) moves his arm independently of the body - i.e. pushing/pulling the follower's arm back and forth in time with with the feet and shoulders pumping in time with the beat. Done well, it looks/feels good. AT is straightforward but it is the bible of Do's and Don'ts that teachers quote over and over to their students is what proves overwhelming. And then - ha, ha, ha - you see that same teacher in the milonga dancong and their own words having just now flown out of the window.

[timbp]

I was taking group classes for about 2 years at the point when I tried AT. I felt extremely overwhelmed. I wonder how it would feel now that I know a lot more about dancing.

I first started dancing about 3.5 years ago, learning ceroc/modern jive. About 18 months ago (after 2 years dancing ceroc, 8 months salsa), I tried AT (because I loved the music and liked the look of the dance) and found it too hard. I did 7 classes of an 8 week beginner class, then gave up. This was partly because of the class (6 couples who did not rotate, 2 single guys, 1 single girl -- so half the time I was standing out watching, and it never even looked like becoming a group of friends), partly because I hate being a beginner (my mother says that when I was learning to walk, I used to crawl to an empty room and try it alone, and immediately drop to the floor if I realised she had come in and seen me), and partly because I put my time and money into west coast swing (which was the fad in the Sydney ceroc community last year).

Two weeks ago, I started trying AT again. I am now finding it fairly easy. I guess the simple fact I have almost twice as much time dancing is a factor. But I also think all the WCS I did last year helped a lot (I'm comfortable and confident with leading with the [body/chest/centre/whatever word a particular teacher uses] and with dissociating hips and shoulders, so I just need to apply that to the closer dance hold). But I think the biggest factor is a friend has been pestering me for the 4 months since she started AT, so I have someone to practise with, and she's had time to find the best teachers and friendliest classes in the area. (Another factor is I don't care too much about doing really fancy moves.)

[timbp]

'Go to milongas' they all say, but what for when the followers prefer to sit and wait for a good leader rather than dance with you.

That's why I wish I were better at remembering faces and bearing grudges.

One day I will be a good AT leader.
I hear often enough the complaint that there are too few good AT leaders.
If only I can remember the followers who do nothing to help me become a good AT leader, so I will be able to choose to dance only with the ones who help me now, and the new beginners who need help when I am at a level to provide it.

[timbp]

So my approach to a class is to understand what is required and absorb it mentally then practice it when I can. The more advanced moves become easier with experience and confidence and an understanding that there is an exchange of energy; so the dance can become very dynamic - in a Newtonian sense.
That's my approach too. And I know I can be told something that I cannot use at the time, but 6 months later when I can use it, I remember it. So I focus on listening to everything the teacher says, no matter how minor it may be. Eventually I find a time when it makes sense and helps with what I am trying to do.
I realise not everyone has this talent -- learn how you learn best. Listening and thinking suits me.


So just enjoy what you CAN do and let the progress come with time and 'Tango miles'

I've been dancing long enough that I've started to believe it when followers say they like a leader who leads simple patterns well and fits them to the music. In west coast swing I never got much beyond leading the basic patterns, but I led them well enough that women would ask me to dance. Whatever dance I do, I'm never going to be great, but if women are coming and asking me to dance, I'm happy.

So in AT, while I cannot yet confidently lead much more than a walk and ochos, I'm happy to go to the milonga this friday and lead my walk and ochos well (occasionally trying some of the other figures I've been taught).
And if the women don't like my beginner dancing, that's fine with me. They don't have to ask me to dance once I reach the stage of being able to dance all night without ever asking for a dance.

[timbp]

I see some leads stop in the middle of the dancefloor to look down, checking to where the follower's feet are. When I lead and this happens, I merely improvise my way around it by dancing now in the cross-walk system - either walking on the outside or straight ahead but with toe sacadas -
I'm sorry. I am a professional copyeditor but I do try not to copyedit forums post. But in this case I am totally lost. "This happens" grammatically refers to "leads stop in the middle of the dancefloor to look down", so when you say you improvise around, I imagine a couple stopped in front of you and you moving around them. Nothing notable about that.
Except that does not seem to fit the rest of your post.
So, can you please clarify what you mean by "this happens" -- what does "this" refer to?

[Heather2007]

I'm sorry. I am a professional copyeditor but I do try not to copyedit forums post. But in this case I am totally lost. "This happens" grammatically refers to "leads stop in the middle of the dancefloor to look down", so when you say you improvise around, I imagine a couple stopped in front of you and you moving around them. Nothing notable about that.
Except that does not seem to fit the rest of your post.
So, can you please clarify what you mean by "this happens" -- what does "this" refer to?


That's okay - I have so many foreign languages going on in my head I end up writing something resembling the sticky stuff when it comes to my mother tongue.

SP wrote: "This ups the ante about knowing where our partner's weight is, and which foot will move when we step......"

I replied: "When I lead and this happens...". The "this" is meant by the unled change of weight by the follower. The "improvise around" means to continue rather than stop dead our track to check if my partner's feet are still attached to her legs. Hopefully, that was better English - although I have just been asked in French if I want a cuppa and replied in kind - so here's truly hoping that this now makes sense :together:

[bordertangoman]

That's why I wish I were better at remembering faces and bearing grudges.
.

I run special workshops in "Bearing Grudges and Passive Aggressive Techniques" along the principles of 'Revenge is a dish best served cold'

Of course the simplest thing is not to ask troublesome followers again, for instance I danced with a stick woman over the weekend to some really nice neo-tango music. It was a horrible experience and as she went to sit down she said I don't really like to dance to that kind of music; to which I conclude stupidity as well as dancing like a stick and a prudish one at that.
To add insult to injury I ended up with her in a colgada workshop (because they were short of a few men) and she wouldn't give me her weight. She would just lean back, then put her foot on the floor; So stupid; stick-y and trust issues.

But I shall remeber her at the next milonga and wreak my revenge

(sound of echoing madcap hysterical laughter that chills to the bone)

[timbp]

Of course the simplest thing is not to ask troublesome followers again
This is where my "remembering faces" comes in. I'm not good at remembering faces, so if I improve to the stage where someone who treated me rudely asks for a dance, I probably won't remember it was that person who was so rude, and so I'll accept the dance.

[Ampster]

'Go to milongas' they all say, but what for when the followers prefer to sit and wait for a good leader rather than dance with you.

Then leave them alone for now and get over it. Say "Thank you," and go find another follow. I do sympathize because it is demoralizing, but... Someday, you may become a really good lead, and you can pass them over next time.

[bordertangoman]

This is where my "remembering faces" comes in. I'm not good at remembering faces, so if I improve to the stage where someone who treated me rudely asks for a dance, I probably won't remember it was that person who was so rude, and so I'll accept the dance.

Obviously not taking enough umbrage:wink:

[Sunny Daye]

We need more leaders like you – who understand that it’s complicated to learn to lead and are willing to go through the time and effort to go to class and try to improve.

You may never be Baryshnikov, but the fact that you are dedicated to it and want to learn is great. I once had a wonderful time dancing swing with a guy in a wheelchair – he had a great sense of the music, and was enjoying himself immensely. I for one would rather dance with a beginner with a good sense of the rhythm and the music than someone throwing in a lot of steps that bear no relation to the timing of the music.


Thanks Calandra -- great support and advice. Much appreciated and taken to heart.

On a positive note, a true story: in one of my first classes, my teacher said to me something like: "Okay, remember to just keep your left arm steady, separate your chest from your hips, don't push the lady on the back, move with intention, keep your hips in the direction you want to go, keep your stomach in, don't bounce, keep the knees flexible but not weak, don't leave your partner behind, invite her to a move -- don't force it, walk as if your are ice skating, or like a cat, remember that intention on every move!, keep up with the music and watch out for other dancers.
"But MOST IMPORTANT of all: just relax and enjoy the moment!"

After many practices, I have done just that: relaxed and enjoyed the moment.

[Angel HI]

One of my partners always says in her classes, "A follow is not an advanced follow until she can dance with a beginning leader". My basic feeling is that the ladies (dare we call them such?) who refuse you because you are not the best lead in the room, are closet doubters in their own abilities and of their own characters (as dancers or otherwise).

Keep honing your skills. You will attract the real follows as time progresses.

[Heather2007]

One of my partners always says in her classes, "A follow is not an advanced follow until she can dance with a beginning leader". My basic feeling is that the ladies (dare we call them such?) who refuse you because you are not the best lead in the room, are closet doubters in their own abilities and of their own characters (as dancers or otherwise).

Keep honing your skills. You will attract the real follows as time progresses.

And a leader is not an advanced lead until he quits trying to only target the low necklines, short hemlines, the under 25s only or those that he knows have been dancing since birth. Yin/Yang. Works both ways. Tangodemocratia is perhaps what the teachers should also be stressing in their classes. I shall maintain that women are subjected to being overlooked/ignored/insults etc more so than men. Only because there is more glamour in the skirt than what there is in the necktie.

[Steve Pastor]

Reality Check.....
People do not make decisions solely on the basis of "who is best" or even where someone fits into the "heirarchy" of dancers.
This came up just last week as I was discussing boleos with one of the other guys. Woman A would never do them on her own, or take a small lead and turn it into a giant boleo.
Woman B would do precisely that. Many people think woman B is a really good dancer of AT. I stopped asking her a long time ago because she seems less interested in a partnership than in doing what she has learned.
I love to dance with woman A, because she is totally there with you when you dance with her (which doesn't happen often because her husband dances tango also, and she is in great demand when they dance with other people).
Me, I've been around long enough that, unless someone has treated me really badly, or I've danced with them and found that "we aren't a good match", I can't keep track of who's who (there's a fairly large group of folks who come and go).

Another thing to consider is the investment someone makes in the AT world, when you ask someone to dance, which is usually several songs in duration - the tanda system. One way to maximize your chances of having your invitation accepted is to wait until one or two songs in the tanda have gone by. The woman will only have to (tenatively)commit to the remaining songs. Experienced leaders use this trick to mimimize being stuck for an entire tanda with someone who is an unknown, and may have little idea what she is doing, have a bad attitude, etc.

[jennyisdancing]

Reality Check.....
People do not make decisions solely on the basis of "who is best" or even where someone fits into the "heirarchy" of dancers.Well, I'm glad you don't. I don't either. I am happy to dance with someone who is at a lower level, all I ask is that they don't step all over my feet, otherwise hurt me, or throw me off balance a lot.

I went to a milonga recently and danced with a guy who had never done AT before. He had only taken the one-hour free lesson at the beginning of the evening. He asked if I would "mind dancing with a beginner" and I said, of course not. All he could do was a simple walk, but he was great at it. Turns out, he had some ballroom background so he knew how to lead and move smoothly. I complimented him and hope that he will start regular lessons because I think he'll become great at AT. All the ladies will want to dance with him then, and I hope he remembers which of us were kind to him in the beginning.

Moral of the story is, dancing is a beautiful art, and also a beautiful way to connect with people. I have seen some people who dance mainly to prop up their ego or validate their social status and I avoid them, no matter how good they may be.

[Angel HI]

And a leader is not an advanced lead until he quits trying to only target the low necklines, short hemlines, the under 25s only or those that he knows have been dancing since birth. quote]

Agreed...100%

[quote=Steve Pastor;456234]Reality Check.....
People do not make decisions solely on the basis of "who is best" or even where someone fits into the "heirarchy" of dancers.

Woman A would never do them on her own, or take a small lead and turn it into a giant boleo. Woman B would do precisely that. Many people think woman B is a really good dancer of AT. I stopped asking her a long time ago because she seems less interested in a partnership than in doing what she has learned. I love to dance with woman A, because she is totally there with you when you dance with her...

GREAT STORY. And a most apropos example.

[Cortado]

I went to a milonga recently and danced with a guy who had never done AT before. SNIP

I complimented him and hope that he will start regular lessons because I think he'll become great at AT. All the ladies will want to dance with him then, and I hope he remembers which of us were kind to him in the beginning.

Moral of the story is, dancing is a beautiful art, and also a beautiful way to connect with people. I have seen some people who dance mainly to prop up their ego or validate their social status and I avoid them, no matter how good they may be.

Believe me, beginners do remember friendly faces. Just like we choose our friends in life on our connection with them rather than their looks or abilities or what they can bring us, the same applies in dance.

I do not dwell on negatives and will most likely forget those who are picky now. When I get better and ask them to dance, they may remember their silliness and treat newer beginners better.

[Peaches]

Believe me, beginners do remember friendly faces.Yes, we sure do! I don't know where I stand--not a beginner, beginner...but still a beginner in the grand scheme of things...or something--but the men who were patient and kind when I was first starting have a very special place in my heart. Even though they may not be my favorite leaders now, I still LOVE dancing with them, because of their kindness and generosity to me when I was first starting. And comments about how I've gotten better mean so much coming from one of them, because they've stuck with me and seen the progression.

Hang in there. Some people only dance up. Oh well, their loss. Yes, it's enjoyable...dare I say, more enjoyable than dancing with a beginner. But there are plenty of us who enjoy dancing with just-starting-beginners, too. (AKA, trying to drag one more soul into the vortex of AT!) It brings it's own sense of pleasure and satisfaction.

[Heather2007]

Reality Check.....
People do not make decisions solely on the basis of "who is best" or even where someone fits into the "heirarchy" of dancers.


Reality re-check? Don't know how they behave in Vancouver young man (as it appears from your commentary that all the gents from all corners of the world reside across the pond) but believe you me, here in London the tango scene is predatorial. Even the Argentines are taken back.

[bordertangoman]

And a leader is not an advanced lead until he quits trying to only target the low necklines, short hemlines, the under 25s only or those that he knows have been dancing since birth. Yin/Yang. Works both ways. .
I don't agree with that. What you refer to is gentlemanly or ungentlemanly conduct. I don't think it has much to do with being an advanced lead or not.

I shall maintain that women are subjected to being overlooked/ignored/insults etc more so than men. Only because there is more glamour in the skirt than what there is in the necktie.

maybe its because there are more women than men and women choose not to ask men to dance as well as the obvious reasons. I won't ask a lousy dancer to dance again.

[newbie]

And a leader is not an advanced lead until he quits trying to only target the low necklines, short hemlines, the under 25s only or those that he knows have been dancing since birth. Yin/Yang. Works both ways.

I don't agree with that. What you refer to is gentlemanly or ungentlemanly conduct. I don't think it has much to do with being an advanced lead or not.


The important word here is "trying". An advanced leader actually invites under 25s low necklines while a not-so-advanced leader can only try to.

[timbp]

here in London the tango scene is predatorial. Even the Argentines are taken back.

Predatorial in what direction?

I've wanted to learn AT for a while. Tried it once and stopped mostly for lack of someone to practise with. Recently started again after several months urging from a friend who wanted me as a practice partner. She has since warned me about several women who will "make offers" for me to be their practice partner. I don't know if there is any truth in this (nobody has yet made me an offer). But given the numbers of men and women I see, I can believe the women might be predatorial.

[Twirly]

I do not dwell on negatives and will most likely forget those who are picky now. When I get better and ask them to dance, they may remember their silliness and treat newer beginners better.

I think this is a good attitude. You never know when someone is just having a bad day, so why waste energy trying to "remember their face" so you can turn them down years later?

[Heather2007]

I don't agree with that. What you refer to is gentlemanly or ungentlemanly conduct. I don't think it has much to do with being an advanced lead or not.

maybe its because there are more women than men and women choose not to ask men to dance as well as the obvious reasons. I won't ask a lousy dancer to dance again.


A preference in a particular looking woman has nowt to do with a man's conduct. It's about a man's preference. Basta!!

What exactly is a lousy dancer? Or, rather, from where you're standing ...a "lousy follower"

And I will always, always give a not so good lead the time of day. I will make eye conduct with same (who to my mind has spent far too much time on his bum and not enough time on his feet), I'll leave whoever it is that I am with, maintain that eye contact, walk over to him, smile and offer my hand. When we have completed "all" 3 tracks, if need be I will gently give tips, hold his hand, ask his name and then say thank you.

[Heather2007]

Predatorial in what direction?

I've wanted to learn AT for a while. Tried it once and stopped mostly for lack of someone to practise with. Recently started again after several months urging from a friend who wanted me as a practice partner. She has since warned me about several women who will "make offers" for me to be their practice partner. I don't know if there is any truth in this (nobody has yet made me an offer). But given the numbers of men and women I see, I can believe the women might be predatorial.

Women tend to be a little bit more grabby in a class only because there tends to be more women than men. Come the milonga, I find that role is soon adapted by the man.

As for finding a partner to practice with, when I set out as a beginning follower I attended classes by myself, left by myself and practised at home by myself either up against a bookshelf or with a broom. When I progressed to the leading role, I practised with the ladies in class and when I got home I shadow-ghost led with my hands in position - which of course to the eyes from afar resembles something akin to tai-chi. Don't get stuck with a partner if you can help it as progress is in the variety of dancers with whom you practise/dance. A partner on yoru arm is handy at a milonga only to fill in the gaps between the dances with others.

[bordertangoman]

What exactly is a lousy dancer? Or, rather, from where you're standing ...a "lousy follower"

.

A lousy dancer might have some or all of the following qualities:

Clockwork mouse: assumes a lead is an invitation to do a whole sequence of moves she is familair with;
Crosses when no cross was led.
Steps into a forward ocho when a back ocho/change of direction is led
Bounces between steps ( to a contra-beat)
Does an unled weight change to get back into parrallell system when you have moved into cross system (fault of those with ballroom training)

Most of the above the follwer can be taught to improve; the following cannot:
Ignores the beat of the music
Dances like a stick- stiff and unflowing (Stick woman will also complain about dancing toneo/alt tango music)
Dances like a horse- in spite of good following ability she has untidy feet that never come together.

This does not apply to beginners with less than three month experience.

[jennyisdancing]

A lousy dancer might have some or all of the following qualities:

Clockwork mouse: assumes a lead is an invitation to do a whole sequence of moves she is familair with;
Crosses when no cross was led.
Steps into a forward ocho when a back ocho/change of direction is led
Bounces between steps ( to a contra-beat)
Does an unled weight change to get back into parrallell system when you have moved into cross system (fault of those with ballroom training)

Most of the above the follwer can be taught to improve; the following cannot:
c
Dances like a stick- stiff and unflowing (Stick woman will also complain about dancing toneo/alt tango music)
Dances like a horse- in spite of good following ability she has untidy feet that never come together.

This does not apply to beginners with less than three month experience.

Thanks Bordertangoman,

I have four months experience (with lessons) and only been out dancing twice so I appreciate the observations. I am always trying to get better. I did notice, by the way, that many people in my class had trouble either leading or following back ochos, so that seems to be a challenge in general.

As to the things you say cannot be taught, I disagree.

Ignores the beat of the music - if you mean deliberately ignoring it, you're right. If you just mean that the dancer does not have good rhythm or musicality, those things can indeed be taught, practiced and improved. Even just putting music on at home and tapping your feet can help with that.

Dances like a stick- stiff and unflowing - people certainly can be taught to dance in a more flowing, graceful manner. Aside from a good tango teacher, ballet, jazz and regular stretching would help. If it's because the dancer is feeling tense, then obviously relaxation exercises, plus just getting better and more confident at your dancing.

Dances like a horse- in spite of good following ability she has untidy feet that never come together. - That's simply a technique issue. A good teacher and a lot of practice should help there, shouldn't it?

[Cortado]

A lousy dancer might have some or all of the following qualities:

## snip ##

Most of the above the follwer can be taught to improve; the following cannot:

## snip ##

This does not apply to beginners with less than three month experience.

Good grief !

My inexperience in the dance and my sometimes faulty logic lead me to say:
If it takes a leader several years to become good and smooth, then it should take a follower at least a year, if not more, to hone her skills.

Is tango as unforgiving as it appears? Some of my female friends who have danced tango for a couple of years tell me that they can sit all night at a milonga and not have a single dance. :eek:

[Peaches]

Is tango as unforgiving as it appears? Some of my female friends who have danced tango for a couple of years tell me that they can sit all night at a milonga and not have a single dance. :eek:IME, it depends a lot on the venues. Best thing I found was to attend a local series of workshops/classes/practicas/milongas where you'll be seeing a bunch of the local faces. It seems to shake things up a bit, you'll meet lots of people and establish a connection with them, and that makes things worlds easier at milongas.

Don't let yourself get intimidated. Especially since you're a guy--you have the advantage of being the one to ask. (Yes, I know girls can ask too, but it's relatively unusual.) Being polite, making an honest attempt, and smelling good go a long way. Some of us really like dancing with beginners.

[Heather2007]

A lousy dancer might have some or all of the following qualities:

Clockwork mouse: assumes a lead is an invitation to do a whole sequence of moves she is familair with;
Crosses when no cross was led.
Steps into a forward ocho when a back ocho/change of direction is led
Bounces between steps ( to a contra-beat)
Does an unled weight change to get back into parrallell system when you have moved into cross system (fault of those with ballroom training)

Most of the above the follwer can be taught to improve; the following cannot:
Ignores the beat of the music
Dances like a stick- stiff and unflowing (Stick woman will also complain about dancing toneo/alt tango music)
Dances like a horse- in spite of good following ability she has untidy feet that never come together.

This does not apply to beginners with less than three month experience.

Here's a gem: next time you dance with one who is "lousy" rather than view this is as a major setback, view it as a rite of passage.

[bordertangoman]

As to the things you say cannot be taught, I disagree.

Ignores the beat of the music - if you mean deliberately ignoring it, you're right. If you just mean that the dancer does not have good rhythm or musicality, those things can indeed be taught, practiced and improved. Even just putting music on at home and tapping your feet can help with that..

hmm my experience is that it is an uphill struggle to teach people this. IMy belief is that people can be open to suggestions musically but its really leading horses to water. Either they have it or they don't.

Dances like a stick- stiff and unflowing - people certainly can be taught to dance in a more flowing, graceful manner. Aside from a good tango teacher, ballet, jazz and regular stretching would help. If it's because the dancer is feeling tense, then obviously relaxation exercises, plus just getting better and more confident at your dancing.

I think this is more ingrained personality rather than tension. Tension I can deal with. I'm not saying there isn't a possibility of change but it would take a dedicated one to one to acheive this.

Dances like a horse- in spite of good following ability she has untidy feet that never come together. - That's simply a technique issue. A good teacher and a lot of practice should help there, shouldn't it? .


well you would think so but there has been no improvement in this aspect of the horse's feet.

[bordertangoman]

Here's a gem: next time you dance with one who is "lousy" rather than view this is as a major setback, view it as a rite of passage.

Life is too short.

[Steve Pastor]

"Is tango as unforgiving as it appears? Some of my female friends who have danced tango for a couple of years tell me that they can sit all night at a milonga and not have a single dance."

Unlike country western two step, Zydeco, or West Coast Swing, Argentine Tango (with the exception of milonga) seems to be a "serious" dance that attracts people who really want to learn to do it well. And it takes a great deal of effort to learn to do it well.
When you learn how to do something really well, the deficiencies of those who are not doing it really well become all the more glaring.
I have no problem dancing with beginners who are still trying to learn.
The casual attitude of Americans with regard to going to milongas before they are ready doesn't help things either. In AT you are more or less expected to dance an entire tanda with someone. And, yes, I have actually ended up in physical pain after toughing it out with someone who really sucked.
I stop asking people who reach a mediocre level and never get any better, and don't even seem to be trying. (On the other hand, just last week I danced with someone who had gotten much better all of a sudden because she had been dancing waltz! She was much more engaged with me through the arms ie the "frame" and could actually feel the lead.)
I don't know that my attitude is any different in AT than it is in two step, but in two step, etc, no one gets upset if you only dance one with them. (Some of us wait a song or two into the tanda before asking an unknown. But if you are a know, and you are good, you are more likely to be asked at the beginning of the tanda. Should have asked her faster.)

[Angel HI]

Your post is interesting on many levels:

Unlike country western two step, Zydeco, or West Coast Swing, Argentine Tango (with the exception of milonga) seems to be a "serious" dance that attracts people who really want to learn to do it well. And it takes a great deal of effort to learn to do it well.

Firstly, let's clear up that I do not believe you intended to insinuate that those other dances do not attract persons who wish to do them well. Moving on, IMO, it is only in the U.S. that people are so serious about this dance. The Argentines take it seriously, yes, but it is a recreation...a passtime for them; not rocket science. And as far as taking a great deal of time to do it well; so does everything that one wishes to do well. AT requires no more/less than BR fox.

When you learn how to do something really well, the deficiencies of those who are not doing it really well become all the more glaring.

Why is it that in dance, in this country, and in AT in particular, many persons seemingly look forward to this?

In AT you are more or less expected to dance an entire tanda with someone.

This has nothing to do with AT. It is cultural to BsAs, or Argentina. Many Americans speak to this, but, we, in the U.S., do not have to do it. It is not cultural to us. I do not mind it, yet, I believe copying it because it is "...what they do in BsAs..." but has nothing to do with the dance, is ridiculous.

And, yes, I have actually ended up in physical pain after toughing it out with someone who really sucked.

Careful! I hate cliches, but there is one that speaks to how many it takes to tango. It might have sucked as equally for the other party. Who would be to bear that fault?

[quote=Steve Pastor;458916](On the other hand, just last week I danced with someone who had gotten much better all of a sudden because she had been dancing waltz! quote]

Again, my point from so many posts. AT is really no more difficult than everything else. Yes, it has its intricacies, but so do other dances. Expecting styles and techniques to be different, movement is movement and good dancing is good dancing. I have often taught BR fox elements to better a person's AT...and vis-a-vis.

[bordertangoman]

Argentine Tango seems to be a "serious" dance that attracts people who really want to learn to do it well. And it takes a great deal of effort to learn to do it well....
When you learn how to do something really well, the deficiencies of those who are not doing it really well become all the more glaring..

I would agree with this entirely

I have no problem dancing with beginners who are still trying to learn.

likewise; I still remeber I was a beignnier once and I will encourage those with less experience; @beginners Mind is also a useful mental attitude

I stop asking people who reach a mediocre level and never get any better, and don't even seem to be trying. (.)

Now this is a real stumbling block for me with the people I teach. I think part of it is attitude and a local temperament which is too laid back and a casual acceptance of mediocrity in all aspects of life. Like these people can't be bothered with anything that is actually difficult.
The people who mostly do well often aren't local but have moved into the area at some stage in their lives.


Of course there is my attitude as well. I am fairly easy going in my classes but there are days where if someone fails to understand what I am endeavouring to each I start to seethe.

When I started I wasn't aware that tango was difficult or would take a long time. I just seemed to be making reasonable and consistent progress and had no real goals as such (except to be able to ganchos!)

Sometimes I think that if I could teach people a bit of attitude ( even if its faked or acted) then most people's dancing would improve. Tango (leading especially) is not for the faint hearted or the indecisive!!!!

[newbie]

This has nothing to do with AT. It is cultural to BsAs, or Argentina. Many Americans speak to this, but, we, in the U.S., do not have to do it. It is not cultural to us. I do not mind it, yet, I believe copying it because it is "...what they do in BsAs..." but has nothing to do with the dance, is ridiculous.


Hmmm yes it has. Each leader has his own way to lead and the follower needs time to adjust. Also, unlike, say, salsa, the danceable part of a tango piece is short, maybe 2 minutes. (You don't begin to dance immediately when the music starts, unlike other dances). So the first dance is only to adjust.
Plus, the DJ will usually organize his tanda in such a way that the best pieces are the 2nd and 3rd pieces of the tanda.

[Cortado]

Hmmm yes it has. Each leader has his own way to lead and the follower needs time to adjust. Also, unlike, say, salsa, the danceable part of a tango piece is short, maybe 2 minutes. (You don't begin to dance immediately when the music starts, unlike other dances). So the first dance is only to adjust.
Plus, the DJ will usually organize his tanda in such a way that the best pieces are the 2nd and 3rd pieces of the tanda.

Very true. I have noticed that many couples do not move until well into the song/track (some much later than others!) and if you are directly behind them you are left with little choice. Balanceos are fine on the spot but I like to start with a clear definite first step rather than a tiny one. Is that what you are supposed to do? I could do a big step left but if they do the same, well ... emm.

Regarding the tanda, many DJs will play the same composer/type of music in one tanda. When you say the best pieces are kept till 2nd or 3rd do you mean the more complex pieces or the more popular pieces? (generally speaking of course).

[Steve Pastor]

Angel HI wrote:
"Firstly, let's clear up that I do not believe you intended to insinuate that those other dances do not attract persons who wish to do them well. Moving on, IMO, it is only in the U.S. that people are so serious about this dance." in response to my comment..
"Argentine Tango (with the exception of milonga) seems to be a "serious" dance that attracts people who really want to learn to do it well. And it takes a great deal of effort to learn to do it well."

Although I haven't been, I've seen lots of pictures of people dancing in BA, and you don't see big happy grins on their faces any more than you see in the US. It's the music and it's the intensity of the dance/ connection. At has a reputation as a "serious" dance because of this.
And, for the beginner, AT is very difficult, or, "it has a steep learning curve". If you learn "by the numbers", for instance with the 8 count basic, that is not the case. But, most people I know don't teach that way. And most people I know haven't learned that way. I could list again some of the things about AT that make it different, and thus more difficult, but, maybe some other time. Comparing the challenge for a beginner to that of "learning to do it well" is apples and oranges.

Regarding the tanda, Angle HI wrote, "This has nothing to do with AT. It is cultural to BsAs, or Argentina. Many Americans speak to this, but, we, in the U.S., do not have to do it."
You may not use a tanda system, and that happens. "We" dn;t have to do it, but we do. Playing music in tandas, and dancing with a partner for an entire tanda is very common here in the US. It makes sense because there is no basic step to start with. Each new set of partners has to "tune in" to each other, and that takes a while. It also makes sense from the standpoint that AT offers 3 kinds of dances: tango, vals, and milonga, dances that have a substantially different feel to them. So playing them in "sets" works.

Angel: "Why is it that in dance, in this country, and in AT in particular, many persons seemingly look forward to this?"
I didn't look forward to it. In fact, it is awful darn thing to discover that a lot of the really good stuff you've learned in classes is useless because it takes two people to do them and many of your partners aren't up to it.

Angel: "Careful! I hate cliches, but there is one that speaks to how many it takes to tango. It might have sucked as equally for the other party. Who would be to bear that fault?"
You go right ahead and ask the women who literally hung a subsatantial portion of their weight on me for an entire tanda how the dance was for them. Be sure to ask them who they've been taking lessons from and how long they've been dancing, too, and why they decided to go to a milonga rather than a practica, where at least a guy could bring up the issue of how they are dancing without being too out of bounds.

[Ampster]

Very true. I have noticed that many couples do not move until well into the song/track (some much later than others!) and if you are directly behind them you are left with little choice. Balanceos are fine on the spot but I like to start with a clear definite first step rather than a tiny one. Is that what you are supposed to do? I could do a big step left but if they do the same, well ... emm.


This is what you've learned in your lessons come in handy. If you find yourself in a traffic-jam, then lead the figures like calesitas, ocho cortadas, molinetes, etc.

Figures that can be done in place, and very small, and causes you to spin around so even if your hardly moving forward, you still have a flow of movement and be aware of everything/everyone around you. Once the floor starts moving then you resolve the momentarily stationary figure, transition and walk.

[Angel HI]

Hmmm yes it has. Each leader has his own way to lead and the follower needs time to adjust. Also, unlike, say, salsa, the danceable part of a tango piece is short, maybe 2 minutes. (You don't begin to dance immediately when the music starts, unlike other dances). So the first dance is only to adjust.
Plus, the DJ will usually organize his tanda in such a way that the best pieces are the 2nd and 3rd pieces of the tanda.

Other than needing 2 or 3 dances to get it right, I am not sure that I understand your reply to the (my) referenced post. :confused: Incidentally, the waiting at the beginning of the song is also "cultural" to Argentina, and thus not a "requisite", but more an option, in the U.S. Non?

[Angel HI]

Re Steve's Post #57

I agree with you on many things, really. The gists of my former comments were; (1) AT is really no more difficult than either other dance that is to be done well. Certainly, it has its intricacies, and definitely noted...some dances are more difficult than others, and I was/am speaking relatively. (2) When you see AT in film, and dancers are not smiling, it isn't because they are struggling through the dance to get it right; it is simply the nature of the dance. Non? (3) Lastly, your point is well taken re some persons being better off at a practica than a milonga, but again, my point was/is do dancers really do this in other dances? I have been to many BR dances where I thought the same thing, and I am certain that in earlier years, someone probably said the same thing about moi, but, we all like to just jump into the deep end sometimes.

Did I mention that I hate cliches? : )

[newbie]

Other than needing 2 or 3 dances to get it right, I am not sure that I understand your reply to the (my) referenced post. :confused: Incidentally, the waiting at the beginning of the song is also "cultural" to Argentina, and thus not a "requisite", but more an option, in the U.S. Non?

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
In AT you are more or less expected to dance an entire tanda with someone.
This has nothing to do with AT. "


This is this part of your post. I disagree with the opinion that dancing the entire tanda is an option. Having mate and empanadas at the milongas instead of beer and cheeseburger is a cultural option and you can copy it or not.

[Heather2007]

"Is tango as unforgiving as it appears? Some of my female friends who have danced tango for a couple of years tell me that they can sit all night at a milonga and not have a single dance."


I spied a man heading my way on Saturday night, when he stopped before me, I picked up my glass of wine, turned my head sharply to the left and made as if I had just seen somebody I knew. He got the message and walked away. Result. Friday night at Negrachas (one of the most "unforgiving" places in London and more so, because the wonderful Pablo Veron was in attendance), another gentleman was glaring over at me whilst I was seated, when he smiled and nodded and made to come over, I turned away. Result. Another gentleman who was seated (this time on Sunday at another venue) just glared at me across the room in an expression that resembled "stunned silence" (Over a year since we last saw each other and yes, we used to talk, dance and break bread but then he went off to BA, returned and I became an invisible). I casually looked over at him and away again. These men (others also who I haven't mentioned) are the same men that treated with me at worse: disdain or at best: total disregard when I was starting out. That memory is still fresh in the head and their disregard and disinterest was the incentive for me to practice, practice, practice and become good and then to learn and practice, practice, practice my lead for one who they once considered wasn't up to much scratch has now become mine.

Never let it be in mind to forget where it was we once tread. Always remain in mind that situations in life is like dealing with your bank. Pay in large amounts and the return will be even bigger.

[bordertangoman]

I spied a man heading my way on Saturday night, when he stopped before me, I picked up my glass of wine, turned my head sharply to the left and made as if I had just seen somebody I knew. He got the message and walked away. Result. Friday night at Negrachas (one of the most "unforgiving" places in London and more so, because the wonderful Pablo Veron was in attendance), another gentleman was glaring over at me whilst I was seated, when he smiled and nodded and made to come over, I turned away. Result. Another gentleman who was seated (this time on Sunday at another venue) just glared at me across the room in an expression that resembled "stunned silence" (Over a year since we last saw each other and yes, we used to talk, dance and break bread but then he went off to BA, returned and I became an invisible). I casually looked over at him and away again. These men (others also who I haven't mentioned) are the same men that treated with me at worse: disdain or at best: total disregard when I was starting out. That memory is still fresh in the head and their disregard and disinterest was the incentive for me to practice, practice, practice and become good and then to learn and practice, practice, practice my lead for one who they once considered wasn't up to much scratch has now become mine.

Never let it be in mind to forget where it was we once tread. Always remain in mind that situations in life is like dealing with your bank. Pay in large amounts and the return will be even bigger.

I've been trying to catch your eye for some time now, but even on the highest local hillock, the distance and the earth's curvature is a bit of a problem:wink:

[Steve Pastor]

First, newbie, your post with the bolding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
In AT you are more or less expected to dance an entire tanda with someone.
This has nothing to do with AT. "

makes it appear that I wrote that the tanda system has nothing to do with AT. In fact, Angel HI wrote the sentence you bolded, not me.

Now, back to the subject of the tanda.
People in Portland such as Robert Hauk and Alex Krebs love Argentine Tango and the culture that it is part of. They both see a connection between the dance and the culture, and endeavor to teach people not just the dance, but the music and the manners that they observed on their stays in Argentina.
Other instructor / djs in this town are quite a bit less dedicated to this way of doing things, even to the point of not using cortinas, or having not their music organized into tandas.
From reading this list, and at least one other, I know that the AT culture as imported from Buenos Aires is not always offered up along with the dance instruction. So be it.
One thing that appeals to me, and I would argue to many others, is that fact that you get to participate in another culture when you step into a place like Alex's Tango Berretin, or Robert's milonga on Monday evening at the PPA.
Now, I have decided that, because so many people don't treat the difference between a practica and a milonga seriously, I will only attend practicas. This is my way of respecting the tanda "rule". I have no desire to go around dumping partners after one or two dances when they are left feeling insulted. (My preferred method is to bring up something that is not working, and you aren't supposed to do that at a milonga, and you aren't supposed to "teach" at a milonga.)
I am going to "say" that if you don't get some of the culture along with the dance, you aren't getting the full package. I would not go somewhere where people were dancing AT, and think that my partners expected me to dance only one dance with them. It is part of the culture of Argentine Tango. (But maybe not where you are.)

[Heather2007]

I've been trying to catch your eye for some time now, but even on the highest local hillock, the distance and the earth's curvature is a bit of a problem:wink:

Honey, I would eat you alive and dance you to death. Believe. :banana:

[bordertangoman]

Honey, I would eat you alive and dance you to death. Believe. :banana:

that remains to be seen, at least on the latter. :twisted:

[Angel HI]

First, newbie, your post with the bolding
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Pastor
In AT you are more or less expected to dance an entire tanda with someone.
This has nothing to do with AT. "

makes it appear that I wrote that the tanda system has nothing to do with AT. In fact, Angel HI wrote the sentence you bolded, not me.

Yeah, I was confused about this too...regardless of who said it.

They both see a connection between the dance and the culture, and endeavor to teach people not just the dance, but the music and the manners that they observed on their stays in Argentina.

I am going to "say" that if you don't get some of the culture along with the dance, you aren't getting the full package.

As I wrote in another thread about 15 minutes ago...I agree 110%.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=460084&postcount=151

[Angel HI]

:confused: Heather, Re your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=459804&postcount=62, your story brings up years of fears of the miradita game. My problem has always been that I can't see well enough to know what signal I was getting. Often resulted in the long walk back, or the cleverly disguised trip to the WC. :D

[Heather2007]

:confused: Heather, Re your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=459804&postcount=62, your story brings up years of fears of the miradita game. My problem has always been that I can't see well enough to know what signal I was getting. Often resulted in the long walk back, or the cleverly disguised trip to the WC. :D

Ha, ha, ha... The Green Mile trundle to the ever forgiving Water Closet. :D

[Dave Bailey]

here in London the tango scene is predatorial. Even the Argentines are taken back.
Is it? :confused: Wow, I've missed all this predation...

I've no experience of any equivalent AT scenes elsewhere to compare London too, but it doesn't seem as predatory as, say, the London salsa scene.

Maybe London's a predatory town :)

Some of my female friends who have danced tango for a couple of years tell me that they can sit all night at a milonga and not have a single dance.
Yes, I've heard that too - but then, why don't they ask? :confused:

(I know, I know, it's not the Tango Way :rolleyes: )

[Dave Bailey]

{ scary stories }
OK, I'm now officially scared.

[Angel HI]

Originally Posted by Heather2007 http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=457982#post457982)
here in London the tango scene is predatorial. Even the Argentines are taken back.

I was only there for a 3 week whirlwind, but found much of where I was teaching; Leeds, Manchester, not so much York or Edinburgh (Scot), and a couple of other places to be as well.

Some ideas, why?

[kieronneedscake]

That rather depends on what you mean by predatorial. Are we talking socially, or in dancing terms?

Small communities have problems with the number of excellent dancers being in very short supply. Then, pushiest or most tactical man wins and gets to dance with the best. However, London is not afflicted with that limitation, as I can think of at least 6 different schools.

My experience of London is that it is the place I am most likely to feel like I don't exist, irrespective of how well I can dance, or how nicely I smile. There is of course the groupie effect too.

[Heather2007]

Originally Posted by Heather2007 http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=457982#post457982)
here in London the tango scene is predatorial. Even the Argentines are taken back.

I was only there for a 3 week whirlwind, but found much of where I was teaching; Leeds, Manchester, not so much York or Edinburgh (Scot), and a couple of other places to be as well.

Some ideas, why?

Londoners bark at tourists/foreigners that push and heave their way through the underground, shop queue etc. or (gasp) avoid queuing altogether, but don't be fooled by all that traditional "polite", stiff upper lip "may I's", "sorry's", "I beg your pardon's. Londoners can be the pushiest and arrogant (and of course the grumpiest) of all and I guess this also translates in their social life. Many times I have had to quickly reign myself in, lose the impatient sigh and the stiletto sharp side glances, take a breath and "move on" already.

[Heather2007]

That rather depends on what you mean by predatorial. Are we talking socially, or in dancing terms?

Small communities have problems with the number of excellent dancers being in very short supply. Then, pushiest or most tactical man wins and gets to dance with the best. However, London is not afflicted with that limitation, as I can think of at least 6 different schools.

My experience of London is that it is the place I am most likely to feel like I don't exist, irrespective of how well I can dance, or how nicely I smile. There is of course the groupie effect too.


Defiinition of predatorial: Sitting at a table with some girlfriends at a milonga on Saturday. The rather cutie chap who both I and my girlfriends were staring at and talking about eventually made his way over to our table. He held his hand out to the friend on my right, smiling she was about to take his hand when the friend on her right took his hand, stood up, flashed her hair, looked back, flashed her teeth and said, "sorry guys" and went off with him. Of course the chap was too polite to say, "well, er, actually" and I was too much in fits of laughter to sympathise. Similar was repeated when the flashing friend asked me to lead her to a milonga later on and when a guy stood by her and asked her to dance at the same her head did a Wimbledon type summing up and again, she flashed her teeth, this time at me, shrugged her shoulders in much the same way a guilty soccer player does when the ref. has caught him fouling the oppo, and said, "sorry". My reply to her was a rather loud "f**k you too" and laughed. And that is predatorial methods employed amongst friends, little the imagination needed then when it comes to mere acquaintances/strangers.

And yes, of course, London is very cliquey and having lived in several cities across the globe, London is indeed one of the hardest to make friends and so perhaps such nature is also seen on the dancefloor. What do other Londoners feel? (Those that were born here that is and not migrants from the provinces...ha, ha, ha).

[bordertangoman]

And yes, of course, London is very cliquey and having lived in several cities across the globe, London is indeed one of the hardest to make friends and so perhaps such nature is also seen on the dancefloor. What do other Londoners feel? (Those that were born here that is and not migrants from the provinces...ha, ha, ha).

Watch your tongue, gel. I was born in London, lived In Blackheath for ten years, have lived near Finsbury Park, Islington, worked in Chalk Farm, Baker Street, Farringdon, even if this was all before my tango days. Ahn yor from Sarf ov da rivva anyway so yer 'ardly a cockney sparrer are ya?? :wink:

[Dave Bailey]

What do other Londoners feel? (Those that were born here that is and not migrants from the provinces...ha, ha, ha).
I've not enough experience of the AT social-dance scene in London to make a judgement.

I've never really encountered such behaviour, but that's probably because I'm not a cutie :(

[Heather2007]

Watch your tongue, gel. I was born in London, lived In Blackheath for ten years, have lived near Finsbury Park, Islington, worked in Chalk Farm, Baker Street, Farringdon, even if this was all before my tango days. Ahn yor from Sarf ov da rivva anyway so yer 'ardly a cockney sparrer are ya?? :wink:

Oi!! I grew up in Lewisham and more of a Londoner than you. All those dead posh peeps in their big swanky buildings overlooking the Heath. They're not Londoners.

[Dave Bailey]

Oi!! I grew up in Lewisham and more of a Londoner than you. All those dead posh peeps in their big swanky buildings overlooking the Heath. They're not Londoners.
Ahhh, Shhaaaaat itttt.... it's yer faaaaaaaaaaamily, innit?

(yes, I've been watching Eastenders, sorry about that...)

What was this thread about again?

[bordertangoman]

Oi!! I grew up in Lewisham and more of a Londoner than you. All those dead posh peeps in their big swanky buildings overlooking the Heath. They're not Londoners.

'ere, Liza Dolittle. That's inverted snobbery. I am neither posh nor wealthy. In fact I'm too eccentric to be pigeonholed into either provincial or cosmoplitan. Cor Blimey, Guvnor, strike a light! Me dear old mum was from Dagenham and she went to school with Dudley Moore,and so me grandad lived in Dagenham; and me uncle was a docker in the days when the docks was docks. And I wasn't too posh to have friends in Lewisham neither.

[spectator]

bah these londoners they're either inverted or straight forward snobs when they look across the fields to Essex...
we don't claim to be londoners they stole our accent and named it "estuary"...

[Cortado]

Well .... I think that you are all talking about the wrong definition of .. class.
:)

class as in "place where you learn stuff" rather than "something that you inherited from your parents". :)

[Angel HI]

Londoners bark at tourists/foreigners that push and heave their way through the underground, shop queue etc. or (gasp) avoid queuing altogether, but don't be fooled by all that traditional "polite", stiff upper lip "may I's", "sorry's", "I beg your pardon's. Londoners can be the pushiest and arrogant (and of course the grumpiest) of all and I guess this also translates in their social life. Many times I have had to quickly reign myself in, lose the impatient sigh and the stiletto sharp side glances, take a breath and "move on" already.

I guess it is the same everywhere. I often tell Americans that Parisians are just the New Yorkers of France.

[Heather2007]

I guess it is the same everywhere. I often tell Americans that Parisians are just the New Yorkers of France.

A couple of years back I returned from what I thought was a most friendly New York. The people I found most helpful. When I reported back to the office some of my colleagues were quick to point out how rude they thought they were when they had travelled there. I had to laugh and shake my head. You ask a Londoner the direction or go to offer him a leaflet etc. when they're in a rush (i.e. on the way to work), they will look at you as if you've just murdered their cat. Even the Parisiennes helped me out when I lived there and yes, they knew that I was British and the tale of these two cities have never been a good one. A Londoner will smile and say their "thank yous" but OMG if you have an accent foreign to theirs then know that the minute your back is turned they are no long smiling but laughing.

My friend at a milonga on Sunday. The small meditterrean chap took her hand, kissed it and walked her back to her seat. This I thought was very sweet and very rare. My friend to me after the chap left our company: "Dear God, did you that dreadful accent?"

[newbie]

"Dear God, did you that dreadful accent?"

Your friend asked God if He created that dreadful accent?

[Heather2007]

Your friend asked God if He created that dreadful accent?

Yes, and you know what God replied, "vive le difference m'enfant".:bouncy:

[Hock Siew]

I agree fully with Angel HI :D

The point is that if you are in a class that is over your head, yes, it might be difficult for you and your partners, but everyone can learn something if they choose to. Perhaps, you will not learn the 'pattern', but you will learn an element; and, your partners might learn how to follow someone who isn't an advanced dancer or teacher. A good partner will not mind that you are struggling.


I think I understand how you feel, Sunny Daye. I`m a beginner myself; and I felt like I was in a similar situation before, although possibly not as bad.

Anyway, after that particular workshop, I tried to thank the girl whom I was dancing with for her patience with me. We had been paired at random, and this was the first time I was dancing with her or even meeting her.

This was what she had to say to me :
"You are welcome! We are all students and everyone needs help to improve. I lose nothing but knowledge and experience to gain."

I will always take heart from this. Thank you to all the gracious dancers out there :D

[Angel HI]

Je vous en prie. Bienvenue au DF.

[Me]

I dunno... maybe it is the southern accent, but I've only encountered one rude Parisian in my life (nasty woman in a museum gift shop who slammed change on the table when I bought a 1 euro postcard with a 5 euro note). Now the milonga left something to be desired, as many of the younger gentlemen did pass over me to stick to their obvious favorite dancers... though all of the cuddly fun to dance with older gentlemen (complete with AT pillows, aka bellies) danced me a lot.

I haven't had the opportunity to dance AT in London but all of the people were extremely nice to me. The people I traveled with had to literally drag me away from conversation with complete strangers. Again, it might have been the southern accent. I know I was listening to theirs!

[Angel HI]

I dunno..., it might have been the southern accent. I know I was listening to theirs!

I have found it, surprisingly attractive. ;)

Sorry...side note. :rolleyes:

[bordertangoman]

I have found it, surprisingly attractive. ;)

Sorry...side note. :rolleyes:

Like Gomez in the Addams Family?

[Angel HI]

:uplaugh: Ouais.