East Coast Swing; A Ballroom "Invention"?

[Spitfire]

Someone elsewhere mentioned that East Coast Swing is a ballroom studio invention; while I don't agree I was wondering if anyone knows more about this. :?:

[DanceMentor]

I would expect that Fred Astaire and Arthur Murray "standardized" swing by creating a syllabus back in the 50's, but I don't know the real answer. I'm going to asl Black Sheep. I'll bet he knows.

[Black Sheep]

To the Mentor,
In answer to the statement below,'
"Someone (the Mentor) in the Dance forum mentioned that East Coast Swing is ballroom studio
invention; Would you care to comment on this? I'm curious if there was some
sort of transition that took place as a result of the standardization by Arthur
Murray and Fred Astaire." David Duval
Such banal generalities, and I don't mean this in a bad way, do not deserve to be dignified by a response. But I'll deal with this banal generality nonetheless. My comment in a banal generality is, 'Whew!'
But the West Coast Swing was not invented by Arthur Murray. Just after WW II Arthur Murray took Swing lessons from my very good friend, Myrna Myron in Los Angeles, and shortly after this, his studios began teaching what is called, West Coast Swing; NOT East Coast Swing. Fred Astaire Studios came on the dance scene several years after Arthur Murray and most of Astaire's American dances were copied from the Arthur Murray Studios. Occasionally we get Swing dancers from the East, doing East Coast Swing and from what I have observed, the East Coast Swing dancers (that I observed) were doing a stylized original Savoy Lindy Hop.
One of the major problems among Swing dancers is that almost every dance instructor is coming up with a new name for an old dance with confusing terms and individual theories of evolution until the world of Swing begins to resemble the City of Babylon where the confusion is seriously endangering the survival of the original Lindy Hop.
I think it is time competent dance teachers should begin to find a way to universalize the integral structure of Swing and standardize a method for teaching this valuable American treasure so that it is not lost in the confusion created by all the rogue Indian Chiefs running rampant in the dance halls of Montezuma.
If anyone is interested, I have already developed a Standard Method of Teaching Swing; It is set down in my latest book 'Lindy by Lanza'. Unfortunately, I'm out of copies, but there is some material on my Web Site, www.LindybyLanza.com .

Black Sheep

[d nice]

I'd have to agree with kinesthiologists. When the the overall body movement style and mechanics change, when the interaction/communication between dancers change, and when the method of interpreting the music changes, and the type of music it is danced to is changed, the dance has become something new.

Arthur Murray is credited with the changes from the swing dance that was once known as lindy hop but generally refered to as jitterbug at the time, into ECS. If you look at the old video footage of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers or Dean Collins, Lindy Hoppers from the world famous Savoy Ballroom, you notice a completely different dance than what is East Coast. IF you look at the old footage of Dick Clark's dance show from Philly you'd notice again a very different dance than what is ECS as taught by Murray.

I have yet to see any footage that predates AM's teaching that is in fact the same dance. Simply using the same number of counts does not equate to it being the same dance.

Arthur Murray is credited with the changes from the swing dance that was once known as lindy hop but generally refered to as jitterbug at the time, into ECS. If you look at the old video footage of Whitey's Lindy Hoppers or Dean Collins, Lindy Hoppers from the world famous Savoy Ballroom, you notice a completely different dance than what is East Coast. IF you look at the old footage of Dick Clark's dance show from Philly you'd notice again a very different dance than what is ECS as taught by Murray.

I have yet to see any footage that predates AM's teaching that is in fact the same dance. Simply using the same number of counts does not equate to it being the same dance.

Dnice makes some excellent, important points.

Based off of steps that were done during the era of Lindy/Lindy Hop in places such as the Savoy Ballroom and later on the western coast, such movement was not then it's own seperate dance. You could indeed say Murray 'created' it then, as his extraction, simplicification and patternization of East Coast Swing definately is easily evident in its kinetic, interactive and musical senses, markedly different from it's 'street' basis.

-FF

[DanceMentor]

...And what made Arthur Murray so succesful was he standardized the dance (some would switch 'stan' with 'bas'). No matter where you travelled you could always find people who had learned from the same syllabus. Arthus Murray also created his own version of the Foxtrot.

There are always people trying to standardize and there are always people who need more room for creativity. I think the development of dancing could be summarized in this way, as a constant struggle between the creators and the standardizers, and maybe also the preservationists. Which one are you?

BTW, welcome to the Dance Forums, funkyfreak! Your participation is much appreciated.

I'm going to have to remember to check my Arthur Murray manual when I get home. I have a first edition copy.

[SDsalsaguy]

...And what made Arthur Murray so succesful was he standardized the dance (some would switch 'stan' with 'bas'). No matter where you travelled you could always find people who had learned from the same syllabus. Arthus Murray also created his own version of the Foxtrot.

There are always people trying to standardize and there are always people who need more room for creativity. I think the development of dancing could be summarized in this way, as a constant struggle between the creators and the standardizers, and maybe also the preservationists. Which one are you?

BTW, welcome to the Dance Forums, funkyfreak! Your participation is much appreciated.

I'm going to have to remember to check my Arthur Murray manual when I get home. I have a first edition copy.

I think Arthur Murray's role in the proliferation of dance should also be noted – he used to send 8mm video to his various schools almost weekly of the latest things he'd seen in the clubs over the weekend. Standardization, for teaching purposes, may, indeed, have been one element of his schools, but – at least at the time – so was a thirst for learning and spreading the newest and latest variations and developments.

—Jonathan

[d nice]

Its easy as vernacular jazz dancer to bash AM for the things he did to change so many dances away from their original roots... however one thing that no one can take away is that he made dancing easily accessible, and made popular dances of the young and lower class (or minorities) available and acceptable to to white middle and upperclasses.

You can debate whether the changes were good and whether the dances were essentially the same as the original versions, but you can't really deny that partner dancing would be a completely different thing if not for for AM, and prolly, at least in general, not for the better.

[Steve Pastor]

Jitterbug
The Jitterbug is the one dance which spells youth, vitality and sheer joy of living more than all other dances. It is as bubbling and effervescent as champagne and very gay. For several years it has been growing in popularity with the younger and more vivacious crowd.
There are humdreds of regional dances of the Jitterbug type. Each section of the country seems to have a variation of its own. And yet, all are similar in character and rhythm.
A favorite with young New Yorkers is the Lindy Hop.

From "How to Become a Good Dancer" by Arthur Murray Revised edition 1947

[Steve Pastor]

Murray's 1947 step description for Double Lindy - Basic Step for the man can be summarized as:
starting with the left foot - triple step, (These are all quick steps, requiring two beats of music and can be counted "one and two.") then slow in place with right foot, slow step in place with left foot;
triple step starting with right foot, then step back with left foot, step forward on right foot.

His description of the Single Lindy Hop (which he writes is used when the music is fast) is:
Tap in place with left foot.
Step to left with left foot.
Bring right foot up to left.
Step in place with left foot.

Tap in place with right foot.
Step to right with right foot.
Step back on left foot.
Step forward on right foot.

[Steve Pastor]

Murray had a different take on things in the 1954 edition of "How to Become a Good Dancer".

Swing

And now we come to the dance that spells youth, vitality and sheer joy of living more thatn all other dances. It's as bubbling and effervescent as champagne! Whether it's called Swing, Lindy or Jitterbug, it's one of our most exciting dances.
Dancers in different parts of the country adopt their own local variations, but all Swing steps are similar in character and rhythm.

BASIC LINDY STEP
The Basic Lindy Steps can be done in three different rhythms. All these rhythms are equivalent, in count, to a Waltz danced to Fox Trot music. In other words, one slow step, and two quick steps.
Step left (slow)
Step right (quick)
Step left (quick)
Step right (slow)
Step left (quick)
Step right (quick)

NOTE: The quick steps can be taken back-forward, forward-back, or back-together. Any of these ways are correct.

The descripton of Double Lindy Hop is the same as in the 1947 edition.

[d nice]

His later description is more accurate of Lindy Hop, but he falls into the trap again of assuming all Swing dances are the same. Having similar rhythms used in a general way does not equate to something being the same dance. Cha-Cha and Lindy Hop have the same rhythm and certainly aren't the same dance.

[tangotime]

Having worked for the " chain ", and know (and knew ) most of its foremost high profile dance " talking heads ", would doubt if he personally wrote the aforementioned description . In the late forties, he had turned the dance side of things over to a national d.d. who became responsible for content and description . That is not to say he did not have editors priviledge, I,m sure.

Knowing the person who was at the helm, at that time ( and afterwards ) worked for 3 of them, they were quite decisive about any edicts they put forth . ( for nearly 30 yrs, national d.d. were all ladies ) .

[Steve Pastor]

I looked at those books as part of my West Coast Swing "original music" project. I wanted to see what Murray's books actual had in them, rather than what people wrote was in them.
As late as 1954 there is no mention of East Coast Swing, Murray acknowledges that Lindy Hop is the basis for both swing and jitterbug, and there are local variations. There is no mention of West Coast Swing or Rock 'n' Roll dancing.
I'm not surprised that he didn't actually write the books. I don't really believe that the Earl of Sandwich actually invented the sandwich, either.
I have completed my WCS project, and have no plans to continue looking at Murray's books. If someone else does, please share with us.

[saludas]

There is no need for the name 'East Coast Swing' except to differentiate it from WC Swing.

[Steve Pastor]

"The Ballroom community, looking for a much more simple and mild form of swing, invented a much simpler and milder form called "Eastern Swing" (East Coast Swing) in the forties. In Los Angeles in the 1940's and 50's many teachers would dance West Coast Swing as sort of an enticement."
The above was taken from a popular dance web site.
If you carefully read what people write on these sites, you will become totally confused about what happened when and where.
Arthur Murray did not use this term in his books thorugh 1954. So who were the people that were using this term, if anyone?
Other than noting the above information from the Murray books, I haven't seriously looked into when the name East Coast Swing began to be used.
Like it or not, the use of that name is common usage now.

[dancedevine]

"The Ballroom community, looking for a much more simple and mild form of swing, invented a much simpler and milder form called "Eastern Swing" (East Coast Swing) in the forties. In Los Angeles in the 1940's and 50's many teachers would dance West Coast Swing as sort of an enticement."
The above was taken from a popular dance web site.
If you carefully read what people write on these sites, you will become totally confused about what happened when and where.
Arthur Murray did not use this term in his books thorugh 1954. So who were the people that were using this term, if anyone?
Other than noting the above information from the Murray books, I haven't seriously looked into when the name East Coast Swing began to be used.
Like it or not, the use of that name is common usage now.
i am totally confused! Why do we hear of two classes ECS and WCS at diverse studios? And some people have an almost cult like intensity regarding whatever brand of swing they 'use'?

I am baffled. Why must things be so bloody complicated? This takes all the fun out of it...:confused: :cry:

[DennisBeach]

i am totally confused! Why do we hear of two classes ECS and WCS at diverse studios? And some people have an almost cult like intensity regarding whatever brand of swing they 'use'?

I am baffled. Why must things be so bloody complicated? This takes all the fun out of it...:confused: :cry:

That is a good question. We dance and like both ECS and WCS. WCS has various styles and I enjoy seeing good dancers, do the various style. I just enjoy sharing the dance floor with other people, who share my love for dancing, what style they do is irrelavent too me. I think they are all great.

[tangotime]

Dennis-- if you go back to earlier posts, a lot has to do with musical influences .

Swing ( e.c ) being a watered down version of a combination of dances, promoted by the chain schools to adapt rhythms ,to slower tempos, with a choice of 2 dominant rhythms ( syncop. bar and a s.s.q.q. ) which would better suit their clientele . They also wanted it to look more refined .

Its a funny thing, if one thinks about it-- the " laziness "of the w.c. and the " speed " of the e .c. , seem to typifiy the laid back persona of the west coast ( calif. ) ,as opposed to the hustle and bustle of the east ( like n.y.c. )

[DennisBeach]

[QUOTE=tangotime;409003]
Swing ( e.c ) being a watered down version of a combination of dances, promoted by the chain schools to adapt rhythms ,to slower tempos, with a choice of 2 dominant rhythms ( syncop. bar and a s.s.q.q. ) which would better suit their clientele . They also wanted it to look more refined .

QUOTE]

I noticed in some advanced East Coast videos, that a lot instructors, enhance East Coast by putting a lot of the Lindy type stuff into it. It became more fun when we learned some of those types steps.

What I was getting at in the first reply, was I don't see why people have to put down other types of dances and the people who like them. There are some dances I have no interest in, but I still appreciate and respect peopl who do like them.

[tangotime]

On the A / M step list, there was a step called " Lindy Turn ".