Skill levels

[youngsta]

I see and hear it all the time.

"I'm an advanced beginner"
"I've been dancing a year now, I'm an intermediate level"
"I'm almost advanced level now!"

I've been dancing almost two years now and I still call myself a beginner. The owners of the quotes above, I've seen them dance...they're beginners too. People that know me and see me out dancing always ask me "Why do you consider yourself a beginner? You're one of the best out here!" I usually tell them calling yourself something doesn't make it true. I know how much work is still left to do so I don't kid myself with the term intermediate or advanced. But it amazes me how many dancers cling to these titles as if it stratifies them above other dancers. You can say it to yourself all you want, but the truth comes out on the dancefloor in the end.

[Sagitta]

I agree!! :) I'm sure I'll be a beginner for a long time!!

[dancin_feet]

I don't even think of myself as a level. There are levels of class, but they relate more to the steps you are doing rather than the level of dancer doing them.

There is a guy that goes to class with me who considers dancing is all about the number of steps or figures you know. He was complaining to me once that his instructor had not taught him a new step in a private lesson for almost 3 months and he was getting bored. He just doesn't get it at all. Great guy to dance with, but he just doesn't get it.

[twodance]

Most people still quantify their dancing through the medal system. Bronze, Silver, Gold and above Gold. Basically it comes down to 10 steps in each level ie. 10 for Bronze, 10 for Silver etc. It takes an average person 1-2 years to achieve a Bronze medal, 5 years to achieve a Silver medal and 10+ years to get a Gold. However steps do not a dancer make. I agree with youngsta, get on the floor a show me what you do. Don't tell me how many steps you know.

[SDsalsaguy]

I hear you youngsta!

I remember once being asked to dance and, after I'd accepted, being asked to take it easy on her since she was "only a level 3 dancer." :shock:

Seriously now, what in G-d's name does that even mean???

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Hi Youngsta,

This is a good topic, thanks for bringing it up.

Even though I’ve recently passed to an advanced level in my salsa school, I still consider myself as a beginner. It’s kind of ironic because the more proficient I get, the more I feel like a beginner. I’m constantly learning new things (which I should already know) and correcting flaws in my technique. The more I progress the more demanding I become on myself…

Ever since I passed to an advanced level, I’ve spent more time practising the basic step than new patterns. I honestly believe I need to improve my basic step before I can progress further. I feel this has already started to help me in classes as well as on the dance floor.

The other day I was commenting with a friend that I had really enjoyed dancing with an advanced salsera. He corrected me saying, “No she’s intermediate”. I answered, “No, she’s advanced, dance with her, you’ll see…”. My friend was referring to her official level, I was referring to what I felt on the dance floor.

I have the tendency to “mentally” rate people who I’ve danced with. This is my own subjective rating which has nothing to do with their official level. Sometimes when dancing with a new girl, I can tell (before we dance) if she’s good or not just by holding her in a closed position. If in doubt, a simple cross body lead will answer my question. From that moment on, I know what kind of patterns I can do with her.

Regards,

[volleybgrl]

True...calling yourself something doesn't make it true. I too always feel like I have loads to learn, but skill levels are necessary in some cases (classes, for example). But like you said, it doesn't mean all that much. Whenever someone asks me, I usually reply with, "I just try REALLY hard." :D

[KevinL]

I honestly believe I need to improve my basic step before I can progress further.


MapleLeaf,
I usually consider people to be advanced dancers if they know enough to know that they need to keep working on basics, not on learning tons of new patterns. Congratulations!

Kevin

[bordertangoman]

There's something in Zen called "beginner's mind", useful at all levels.

Measuring o :? r assessing something like dance does seem to be defeating the point. Okay if you can dance and its flowing and feels good to your partner then you're probably no longer a beginner.

But after that there's always somebody better so why worry. Just make sure you are learning things that are new.

[cl5814]

Mapleleaf Salsero,
You quote of "she’s good or not just by holding her in a closed position.". As follower i come to the same conclusion of the leader. Thanks for stating that, i have always thought that to be true.
I hear the "i have been dancing for 4 years so i am advanced now". I always argue, 4 years but how many times a week do you dance ? Someone dancing for 1 year, but 4 times a week can be a better dancer than someone dancing for 4 years, getting on the dance floor every second week.

interesting discussion though. I would like to explore the working on the basics more. If you say you practice your basic step in order to improve it, what do you exactly mean ? Can you really improve on your basic step if you have been dancing a few years ? How do you go about working on your basic step ? Do you ask for comments from other good dancers or from a coach/instructor or video ? Obviously i am more of a beginner than anything else......

[peachexploration]

....I usually tell them calling yourself something doesn't make it true. I know how much work is still left to do so I don't kid myself with the term intermediate or advanced. But it amazes me how many dancers cling to these titles as if it stratifies them above other dancers. You can say it to yourself all you want, but the truth comes out on the dancefloor in the end.

Very true post youngsta......
This has happened particularly in the salsa schools I've attended where alot of students walk around claiming levels and I think to myself, "You call yourself any level you want but you still have problems with the basic rhythm? hmmmm...." It's not a good idea that people cling to these titles but it comes from wherever they're being taught. Students are validated by whatever the instructor sometimes tell them when in reality, you are only "advanced" because the schools need the money and they need to keep you coming back. Therefore, they're really not being honest and give a false since of hierarchy among students that shouldn't happen in the first place. :? Like younsta says, the TRUTH comes out on the dancefloor in the end.

[Vin]

I don't think in terms of skill levels, I either enjoy dancing with someone or I don't.
I think I am more interested in making the dance my own, basically feeling comfortable on the dance floor with my partner and the music, how can I do this if I am constantly trying to live up to somebodies expectation of how I am supposed to be dancing. I say forget skill levels they only place restrictions on how one is supposed to dance.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I honestly believe I need to improve my basic step before I can progress further.


MapleLeaf,
I usually consider people to be advanced dancers if they know enough to know that they need to keep working on basics, not on learning tons of new patterns. Congratulations!

Kevin

Thanks KevinL!!!!! :D :D :D

[peachexploration]

.... I say forget skill levels they only place restrictions on how one is supposed to dance.

Amen, Vin!!! :D :lol:

[pygmalion]

Amen to that, peachexploration.

Youngsta, thanks for a great topic. 8)

And it's just as bad, if not worse, in the ballroom world, because of the medals system. Bronze, silver and gold become so important to some people, and many people equate the levels with knowing some number of step patterns. Wrong!

The thing is, some techniques, for example, just take a long time to learn and develop. I'm a prime example for this. I've been dancing 2.5 years (anniversary Friday! :D ) and in that time have taken about 600 hours of private instruction. So, by some people's reckoning, that should put me somewhere near done silver. But, in my mind, and my coach's LOL, I'm still working bronze. You can't measure dancing ability by the number of lessons you've taken, or sometimes even the amount of time you've spent practicing. It's measured by what you can do on a dance floor. And that takes time, both on the calendar and on the practice floor, to mature, IMHO.

[salsachinita]

Great topic, Youngsta!

I personally dislike these rating terms. My preferences on leaders are form based on how they feel & how the make me feel. Followers? I ask the guys who I consider to be good leads :wink: !

I am still learning everyday, after running around in this salsa scene for nearly 15 years. I didn't spend a great deal of time in studios, or focusing on techniques/styling etc. I've always just turn up to clubs & have fun.

These skill level terms are not always accurate in describing classes either. I've turned up to advance classes & got bored, yet found beginner classes somewhere else full of information........

That's kinda why I'm not really interested in classes. The actual dancefloor at the club is where you get a true sense of how someone feels/looks for you.

[Sagitta]

I would like to explore the working on the basics more. If you say you practice your basic step in order to improve it, what do you exactly mean ? Can you really improve on your basic step if you have been dancing a few years ? How do you go about working on your basic step ? Do you ask for comments from other good dancers or from a coach/instructor or video ? Obviously i am more of a beginner than anything else......

I feel that how one executes the basic step can completely change the feeling of the dance. Foot placement, body weight, flexing of the knees, what is done over the two beat slow... I can really bend my knees resulting in large hip movements, or have slight flexing which results in subtle hip movements. Since I'm connected to my partner that immediately affects how my partner can move. During one song/dance I may change how I do the basic to reflect what the music is telling me and the moves that I am doing. :)

[pygmalion]

The ballroom world is a weird and diferent place, I admit, but I still agree with what's being said here.

I think the kicker is that different so-called skill levels don't really mean anything absolute. Case in point -- I take group lessons for practice at a studio near me. Her "advanced Intermediate" class is full of beginners, by my observation! No offense to her or her students -- a bunch of really nice, enthusiastic dancers -- but they can't dance. Not yet, anyway. Yet they have that label -- "advanced intermediate". And when I go to dance camp this summer, you can bet I won't be in the advanced intermediate classes. I'll be with the beginners, where I belong. It's all relative.

btw, the beginner classes are where the good stuff can be found. You take learning step patterns out of the equation and can focus on practicing technique. And if the teacher's really good, they'll toss you some technique ideas on the side while they're teaching steps to the newbies. 8) :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

interesting discussion though. I would like to explore the working on the basics more. If you say you practice your basic step in order to improve it, what do you exactly mean ? Can you really improve on your basic step if you have been dancing a few years ? How do you go about working on your basic step ? Do you ask for comments from other good dancers or from a coach/instructor or video ? Obviously i am more of a beginner than anything else......
Hi cl5814!

This is kind of hard to explain, but here goes…

I first suspected I needed to brush up on my basics in salsa class. As I moved on to the studios´ so called “advanced level”, the patterns started becoming more and more complex. By pattern I mean a combination of several moves.

My instructor would say, “OK guys, today we’ll learn a new pattern”. It’s called “A”. “Let me show you how it’s done”. He’d demonstrate it with his partner two (sometimes three) times. Then he’d say, “This is easy because it’s composed of 3 moves you already know, plus one new move.” “All you have to do is learn the new move”. RIGHT!

Anyway, when I’d try it out, I would sometimes end up off balance in between moves. I knew there was something wrong but just couldn’t pin point it. After some time, I realised that the only things that could cause my off balance was incorrect weight transfer and body posture. Therefore, I needed to relearn the basics. I remember in beginner’s class, the instructor will constantly stress that weight transfer and posture were extremely important in salsa. I actually thought I had learned it. Well, I was wrong! I started practicing the basic step over and over again, completely transferring my weight on each step and at the same time making sure my body was always forwardly inclined.

I realise that us guys have a lot to think about when learning a new pattern - our minds are very busy - however, weight transfer/posture should be instinctive after a certain level. It wasn’t for me. I can assure you that practicing the basic step has done wonders for me in class (even though I haven’t mastered it yet).

So, to answer you question “Can you really improve on your basic step if you have been dancing a few years?” YES. I’m living proof of this. How can I consider myself an advanced salsero if I haven’t even mastered the basics yet?!

P.S. I’ve noticed that I’m not the only one in my class with this problem… Hmm…

Regards,

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I feel that how one executes the basic step can completely change the feeling of the dance. Foot placement, body weight, flexing of the knees, what is done over the two beat slow... I can really bend my knees resulting in large hip movements, or have slight flexing which results in subtle hip movements. Since I'm connected to my partner that immediately affects how my partner can move. During one song/dance I may change how I do the basic to reflect what the music is telling me and the moves that I am doing. :)

I couldn´t agree with you more Sagitta. And you say your a newbie at this... Hmm... :?

[Vin]

I first suspected I needed to brush up on my basics in salsa class. As I moved on to the studios´ so called “advanced level”, the patterns started becoming more and more complex. By pattern I mean a combination of several moves.

My instructor would say, “OK guys, today we’ll learn a new pattern”. It’s called “A”. “Let me show you how it’s done”. He’d demonstrate it with his partner two (sometimes three) times. Then he’d say, “This is easy because it’s composed of 3 moves you already know, plus one new move.” “All you have to do is learn the new move”. RIGHT!


I have found that a great way to improve your dancing as a lead is to really work on transition's between different movements, I would say I only know how to lead 5-6 different things, however it seems like I know how to lead alot of different things to people dancing with me because I don't always follow move A with move B, Sometimes I do 2 move A's with a move D in between.
Back to the subject, how is one person judged a better dancer than someone else? I have seen one guy in particular that alot of people consider an advanced dancer(in swing and Lindy), It actually pains me to watch him dance, he looks like he is throwing the girls around like a rag doll and I have rarely seen him on beat. But he does alot of cool looking things like airiels that people go ooh, ahh for(not socially of course). Many say he is an advanced dancer, I would say he is not.
Or how about those women who are great follows. Consider 2 of my "favorite" salsa partners, both with years of ballet training, one of whom grew up with salsa(dancer A) one who didn't(Dancer B).
With both dancer's I have a great connection, Dancer A and I do great together and we are especally good when we seperate and do shine patterns in synch. However if I throw a move at her that she has not seen before she does not usually get it right away and we would have to work it out before doing it again.
Dancer B and I are also great together, however when we seperate to do shine patterns she tends to get lost with the footwork and I have to pick her up again before too long since she is not as familiar with salsa. On the other hand she follows everything I lead to perfection. She is much better at recovering from bad leads when I try and lead something new that goes wrong.
Who am I to say that Dancer A is a better dancer than Dancer B or vice versa, all I know is that I enjoy dancing with both of them for different reasons. Although I do have my preference :twisted:

[cl5814]

Mapleleaf Salsero,

Thanks for explaining the basics concept with an example. I get your point, it being the basic step plus more technique.
I am thinking of attending the dance camp vegas in june. Anybody else going ? I see that they have 4 levels, i might just stick to the beginners level since we have excellent instructors on the program. i might just pick up more pointers to improve my basic steps.

[dancin_feet]

I have been watching any rumba routine I can find since I decided to do a rumba performance and was watching the Australian Dancesport Championships late last year. The couple they had doing exhibitions were fabulous and watching her to an Alamana was just amazing. I had taped the show and had to rewind and play it again before I recognised what step it was. Sitting back and thinking, that is amazing, and then the realisation hits you, "hey I know that step!". :shock:

Really does look so different when you add the advanced styling.

[SDsalsaguy]

Nothing impresses me more than advanced execution of basics. Now that is when you really see dancing.

[salsachinita]

There is a great article I've read: "What is an advanced dancer" under "articles".

Check it out, guys!

[tsb]

Nothing impresses me more than advanced execution of basics. Now that is when you really see dancing.

like watching michael jordan in his heyday. he had tremendous talent, but that was supported by mastery of the fundamentals. a past instructor put it this way:

"An advanced dancer is one who does basic patterns with advanced technique and advanced patterns with basic technique."

[youngsta]

The other day I was commenting with a friend that I had really enjoyed dancing with an advanced salsera. He corrected me saying, “No she’s intermediate”. I answered, “No, she’s advanced, dance with her, you’ll see…”. My friend was referring to her official level, I was referring to what I felt on the dance floor.

I have the tendency to “mentally” rate people who I’ve danced with. This is my own subjective rating which has nothing to do with their official level. Sometimes when dancing with a new girl, I can tell (before we dance) if she’s good or not just by holding her in a closed position. If in doubt, a simple cross body lead will answer my question. From that moment on, I know what kind of patterns I can do with her.

I do that too MapleLeaf. I don't really rate the women I dance with in terms of beginner, intermediate, or advanced...but I DO think things like she's about my level or she's better than me.

Great comments people! :D

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Back to the subject, how is one person judged a better dancer than someone else? I have seen one guy in particular that alot of people consider an advanced dancer(in swing and Lindy), It actually pains me to watch him dance, he looks like he is throwing the girls around like a rag doll and I have rarely seen him on beat. But he does alot of cool looking things like airiels that people go ooh, ahh for(not socially of course). Many say he is an advanced dancer, I would say he is not.

Vin, anyone who throws the girls around like a rag doll is not an advanced dancer. In my opinion he´s not even a dancer! I would consider him more of a wrestler than a dancer. A lead is supposed to be a suggestion, the leader says, "please go here, I suggest a left turn, etc." For this to happen, there has to be a connection between the two (as you mentioned with the two girls you like dancing with). When you force your partner to do something, it´s no longer considered dancing. I think many leaders forget that dancing involves two people - not one person vs a following machine. It´s not a competetion to see who´s stronger. It´s a conversation, not an argument.

[pygmalion]

Beautifully said, Mapleleaf Salsero. :D 8)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Nothing impresses me more than advanced execution of basics. Now that is when you really see dancing.

I love this forum! :D :D

[peachexploration]

It´s a conversation, not an argument.

Very true, MapleLeaf. :D

[Vin]

Vin, anyone who throws the girls around like a rag doll is not an advanced dancer. In my opinion he´s not even a dancer! I would consider him more of a wrestler than a dancer. A lead is supposed to be a suggestion, the leader says, "please go here, I suggest a left turn, etc." For this to happen, there has to be a connection between the two (as you mentioned with the two girls you like dancing with). When you force your partner to do something, it´s no longer considered dancing. I think many leaders forget that dancing involves two people - not one person vs a following machine. It´s not a competetion to see who´s stronger. It´s a conversation, not an argument.
I agree completely Mapleleafsalsero, I was using this example to make a point about what focusing on skill levels brings out. If you are so focused on being an advanced dancer then you forget what dancing is about.
My other example was to illustrate the point that among people who you enjoy dancing with, it is almost impossible to say one is a better dancer than the other as each person brings something different to the dance.