End Game: Prechamp?

[Latinguy]

I hope this is not too controversial a topic for my first post.

This is a question that I've come to wonder over the past few months:
From the time when I was a beginner, I always marveled at the championship level dancers in standard and latin. To me, being championship level meant playing in the big league. Seems obvious enough right? And directly below championship level was another level with which I was very impressed: prechamp. It followed that prechamp must be the precursor to championship. It's the level in which people who are well on their way to the big league but not quite there yet compete. I know this all sounds obvious but...

I seem to have noticed a "trend" occurring as I've watched several prechamp latin events. The very well trained couples, dancing with a lot of maturity and composure, clean and pleasing technique, good connection, nice lines and a nice international style, are getting cut early in the rounds, sometimes as early as round one. My guess is that the reason these couples seem to get short-changed is that they have a somewhat quiet performance. To me, it looks confident, mature, professional, and composed in comparison to what most other couples were doing: dancing so hard, as if afraid that something awful would happen if they let up for a second. I do understand that one must perform with a lot of passion when competing, but at a certain point the passion becomes craziness and the technique, connection, and a lot of other aesthetics break down. This is what leads to my question/realization.

If prechamp were the road to championship, I would expect that judges want to see the formation of hard skills required in championship - the partnering, technique, spinning, lines, tricks, etc. And once in championship, when your physical ability is very good, it's time to show it off by giving the performances of your life. However, it does seem that competitors may be increasingly giving hard, passionate performances at the prechamp level while physical skill suffers, and are being rewarded by the judges for it. I believe that the physical skills are necessary for making it to championship, and if they are to be sidelined in favor of a more passionate performance, then reaching championship will be much more difficult. Does this mean that many of the dancers who have entered prechamp have given up on reaching championship, and chosen instead to perform with what they have? Does this mean that prechamp is really not the precursor of championship, but instead, is more of a "poor man's" championship - or rather, an alternate end game for those who are not trained from childhood? (I am speaking of latin more than standard)

[Chris Stratton]

The good old "complete for what it can be" vs. "clearly a work-in progress" debate...

[latingal]

Welcome to DF Latinguy...

[tanz15]

Does this mean that many of the dancers who have entered prechamp have given up on reaching championship, and chosen instead to perform with what they have? Does this mean that prechamp is really not the precursor of championship, but instead, is more of a "poor man's" championship - or rather, an alternate end game for those who are not trained from childhood? (I am speaking of latin more than standard)

Whether someone has abandoned all hope of reaching champ probably depends on how long they've been in prechamp. After all, if you enter prechamp and win three times in short order, then you don't have this worry. If you have been in prechamp for 10 years and results are not improving, then you may easily start to develop doubt about moving up (as undoubtedly you will have seen a fair number of people enter and place out into champ during your tenure at this level).

[meow]

Again, we are different - we don't have pre-champ events. We have Levels (level 1 being the lowest to Level 5 the highest). At a championship, If you win say, Level 3, then you are the Level 3 Champion in that style at that competition. That isn't earthmoving but it is good. Certain amounts of wins in your level means you then elevate to the next level until, hopefully you are Level 5 (Open). This is all in Amateur - the Pro events here are only Open events. We don't have Pro-Am.

[Adwiz]

The very well trained couples, dancing with a lot of maturity and composure, clean and pleasing technique, good connection, nice lines and a nice international style, are getting cut early in the rounds, sometimes as early as round one.

I've noticed this as a general trend in judging, both in pre-champ and championship levels. I'm not sure what's going on. Judges tell me that they find it dismaying that musicality and quality are being lost, but it seems that too often judges don't seem to mark down couples who fail to display understanding of musicality or quality.

In some cases I have seen these things considered in the marking, and am encouraged by that. A few years ago, I saw a Standard event where Paulo Bosco and Sylvia Pitton were marked down by the judges against Warren and Kristy Boyce because they were clearly sacrificing quality of movement for movement and this didn't sit well with the judges. Paulo was so angry he vowed verbally never again to compete at this particular annual event. But I have been puzzled many times when seeing a pre-champ or champ couple who appeared to be off-time (or at least showing no awareness of musicality) being marked higher than others who showed more maturity in musicality and other aspects of their performance.

Since I'm not a judge, I have to respect that they are seeing things I can't possibly see in the performance, especially in comparison to the other couples. Part of what is being marked is the "performance" or "dance ability" which can be hard to define except that you see it when couples are being compared. One couple may be technically better than another but are so weak in the performance aspect that you don't enjoy watching them. This has to count for something, since DanceSport is a spectator sport. This kind of quality is evident when you see those wonderful couples on "So You Think You Can Dance" take on a ballroom routine in one week and make it look better than most pre-champ amateur couples who have practiced their routines for months. It's not entirely about technique. That's only part of the equation. Pre-champ is designed to give you time to develop those esoteric non-technical performance qualities as you prepare for championship.

Having said that, I still agree that too often it seems that judges are allowing a flashy performance alone to override the technical values that they talk about when teaching, and this has the appearance of looking like a double standard.

[Laura]

Again, we are different - we don't have pre-champ events. We have Levels (level 1 being the lowest to Level 5 the highest).

This is not unlike what we have in the US, just you use numbers and we use names. For instance, we might be able to equate things like this:

Level 5 == Highest-level Championship -- like what would have been the "World Class" level -- USA Dance doesn't actually have a name for this level
Level 4 == Championship
Level 3 == Pre-Championship
Level 2 == Gold Syllabus / Novice
Level 1 == Bronze/Silver Syllabus (or the sometimes used term "Pre-Novice")

Note that these are just my ideas of the mappings.

Certain amounts of wins in your level means you then elevate to the next level until, hopefully you are Level 5 (Open).
We have the same thing here.

This is all in Amateur - the Pro events here are only Open events.
Again, we have the same thing in the US. Well, there's "Rising Star" Pro Events.

[meow]

This is not unlike what we have in the US, just you use numbers and we use names. For instance, we might be able to equate things like this:

Level 5 == Highest-level Championship -- like what would have been the "World Class" level -- USA Dance doesn't actually have a name for this level
Level 4 == Championship
Level 3 == Pre-Championship
Level 2 == Gold Syllabus / Novice
Level 1 == Bronze/Silver Syllabus (or the sometimes used term "Pre-Novice")

Note that these are just my ideas of the mappings.


We have the same thing here.


Again, we have the same thing in the US. Well, there's "Rising Star" Pro Events.

You may be right, I really don't know. But it sounds like it might fit. But, we don't have 'Rising Star" Pro events.

[Laura]

:) I'm just trying to give you a mental picture of what we're talking about :)

[meow]

:) I'm just trying to give you a mental picture of what we're talking about :)

Thanks, it has helped me get somewhat of a grip on things.:)

[Chris Stratton]

but it seems that too often judges don't seem to mark down couples who fail to display

One likely factor is that actually "marking someone down" would only become appropriate in extreme circumstances. Instead, what a weakness generally presents is an opportunity for someone who is comprehensively better to be marked instead. But if there is no comprehensivly better couple in that round, nothing can be done - unless the judge is so offended by the particular subject issue that they let it over-ride everything else.

[madmaximus]

An adjudicator's mandate is to find and select the best couple on the floor.

Problem is: "Best" is a very fluid concept.
Best in what?
Passion? Technique? Maturity? Connection?

What are the weights given by an adjudicator to these criteria?
What are the personal biases formed by the adjudicator's own experience (and teachers), and how do those resonate with their selection of couples?

Power and energy are very attractive--my mentor likes to say.
Unfortunately for most, it is with the young that this is often misspent.




m

[fascination]

mmm yes, controlled power is best

[Masaya]

Well, I dance prechamp latin, and I'd have to admit that performance is what I shine the most at. Not that my technique is horrendous or anything (I hope), but I feel like I keep getting better marks than I deserve based on my performance factor.
There was this one competition in which I was competing against this guy who'd been dancing open for a lot longer than me - I really love and respect his dancing. We had a lot of time to kill before our event, so I went up to him and asked him for a mini-lesson in rumba. He showed me a lot of cool technique stuff that I'd never known before.
Come end of the final, I ended up beating him by two places. I didn't feel any accomplishment at that ridiculous result, just shame, because he was so obviously better than me (and his partner was a lot better than mine). His dancing is sophisticated and subtle, while relative to that I'd compare my dancing to, I dunno, a cheap hooker with lots of shiny fake jewelry or something.
I guess I'll just keep working on my technique, so that hopefully when I win a competition others, and especially myself, won't think it's just because of the performance factor :)
I certainly have no intention of moving up to champ until I feel like my technique is up to par.

[Vitalis]

hey, i also dance, or should i say danced prechamp latin. i think i may be amongst the couples you were talking about latinguy. it was always a natural inclination of mine to overemphasize the physical aspects of dancing and not think about the emotional side of performing. i think the same was probably true for my partner, so the end result was probably a dance school pupil look, as nigel on sytycd would say. in my own opinion we had the technicals down pretty good and both of us had quite some background, as in ice dancing and stuff. however, we constantly got eliminated pretty early on, and we were always baffled as to why we didn't make it just a little bit farther. now that i look back and watch some of our videos, i think i can say that it was the performance that was severely lacking. in other words, our dancing looked boring. high quality and boring.

i think at the end of the day, you can believe that you're on your way to championship, and hone all the skills you think you need, but when it comes time for competition, you have to be realistic. its somewhat naive to think that simply a good quality product will sell itself. its always the best marketed products that sell.

[Joe]

Also note that unlike you, the judges don't have the luxury of watching only one couple during each dance. You may see a couple during a moment of musicality that the judges missed.

[Latinguy]

Also note that unlike you, the judges don't have the luxury of watching only one couple during each dance. You may see a couple during a moment of musicality that the judges missed.

I agree with this, so it brings up an interesting point: Less mature dancers may be tempted to worry that if you're dancing subtle and sophisticated, say with highs and lows, light/dark, etc. then a judge may miss the highs and only see a low. So it encourages dancers to go at full volume the entire time, so that no matter when the judges look, they'll see a lot of energy. And to take it one step further, if everybody's going at full volume, then in order to stand out, dancers feel like they need to escalate their energy even more, past full blast and into deafening.

I agree with a previous post that coaches/judges do seem to give mixed messages by focusing on technique a lot in their teaching, and even proclaiming the supreme importance of technique to their students, and then rewarding technique last, if at all, when marking in competition.

In regards to what Vitalis said, it seems easy to say that as a dancer you should have the best of both worlds. But when it really comes down to it, I think you're really going to improve in what you work on the most, and if you're working on the physical skill, that's where you'll improve. If your "strategic focus" is performing what you have, then you're going to be successful there. I think if you try to do both, then both will improve much more slowly.