Should I prepay for 100 lessons with 20% discount?

[HoboChilli]

My studio is currently offering a 20% discount on 100 lessons. The only caveat is the entire 100 lessons must be prepaid up front. I've been taking lessons with my instructor for the past 6 months and like to continue learning from her. I've asked her whether her plans are to continue working at the studio for at least another year and she said yes and told me she likes working there.

Should I go for the 20% discount? Are there anything else I should think about before charging it to my credit card? My credit card is 6.99% so thats still a big saving.

BTW, Since I've been dancing at the studio for the past 6 month, 6 instructors have left. Is this normal?

[Katarzyna]

wow, I would be very very very careful in your situation...

[danceronice]

Until I read the last line, I thought it sounded like a good deal. I just prepaid for 20 lessons (actually 40, but I'm splitting payments) and I'm sure I'll use more than that before the year's over. Heck, I'll probably use up the first twenty before Ohio. So normally I'd say if you can afford it, go for it.

However, that leaving thing--it's not normal where *I* dance, but I've only danced at one studio, and so far, only one instructor's left, and it wasn't really a surprise or AFAIK because of any serious problems. Six sounds like a LOT to me, but I suppose it depends on the studio, the number of pros, the average turnover, etc.

[Laura]

HoboChilli, my first thought is that if so many instructors are leaving, what is the financial health of the studio? Why did all these people leave? If you buy those 100 lessons, will you be able to take them all before the studio goes out of business?

How many lessons a week do you take? Even at four lessons a week, that's six months worth of lessons. If you know you will still be dancing in six months, and that the studio and decent instructors would still be there, then I'd say go for it. Like, if my instructor offered me that kind of discount, I'd jump at it.

But I've also heard stories of people buying big blocks of lessons, and then the studio closing its doors. Is there some kind of policy or clause that deals with this? If you are taking at a franchised studio, is there a guarantee that your lessons will transfer to another franchise location?

My gut reaction is to be very careful about this.

[tanya_the_dancer]

How many lessons do you take per week? If you are only taking 2 per week, for example, that would mean that you're prepaying a year's worth of lessons, are you sure the studio or your teacher will be around that long? My personal position, after what happened here in our town, is that I will never buy a huge package of lessons. I was lucky to get a refund, and I know many people who did not. So now I just pay for the lessons as I take them.

[HoboChilli]

Refund policy is refund of unused lessons within 30 days of purchase. Only 2 out of the 6 I would consider Pros. One left for another studio in California and the other one left to go to grad school. Another 2 couple quit so they can build their house taking up most of their time. 1 left to go back to work and the last one because of performance evaluation wasn't up to par.

[and123]

Years ago I was convinced to buy a substantial block of lessons because the rate was "never going to be offered again." Well, guess what - it was, and even went lower :-x. Needless to say I am no longer with that particular studio. As others have noted, blocks of lessons are not a bad thing *if* the studio is well-established and you and your instructor(s) of choice are planning on sticking around. Things sound a tad unstable though....

[danceronice]

I really don't like the sound of that refund policy. I mean, there is almost no physical way to use that many lessons in 30 days--and if you don't, then once a month is past any you don't use are non-refundable? Ergh. That means if they go under you're probalby NEVER going to see the money back.

I would still consider that kind of deal where I dance if it were available and I had the money, but I know they're going to be here six months or a year down the road.

[Katarzyna]

I recommend being carefull.. I have heard of people doing something like that but it only sounds ok to me if you really know the pro you are taking lesson from and REALLLY TOTALLY trust him/her

[Larinda McRaven]

However, that leaving thing--it's not normal where *I* dance, but I've only danced at one studio, and so far, only one instructor's left, and it wasn't really a surprise or AFAIK because of any serious problems. Six sounds like a LOT to me, but I suppose it depends on the studio, the number of pros, the average turnover, etc.

Actually... 4 have left your studio in under a year, myself included.

[reb]

Are there anything else I should think about before charging it to my credit card? My credit card is 6.99% so thats still a big saving.
Yes, there is something else you should think about - you.

Had you had written "My savings account pays x%", I wouldn't have even batted an eye, but your credit card?!?!
:headwall:

Regardless of the discount, beware of your debt load - unless you're independently wealthy and just use a credit card as a convenience . . . .

[swan]

You know, I never understand how people would buy 100 lessons, and usually that means probably about $5000 upfront!

But people do buy - I've seen it many studios, esp. the chained ones. I'd agree with everyone else's warning - don't count on your instructor staying there that long, given the turnover rate.

If I were in your shoes, my answer would be, No. I'm not even going to say, be careful. My honest opinion & advice is No, don't do it.

[HoboChilli]

I trust my instructor, just not the policies and management style of the studio. This is my first studio so I can't really compare, but the way they manage make me think they're Dance Natzies.

[Chris Stratton]

Should I go for the 20% discount? Are there anything else I should think about before charging it to my credit card? My credit card is 6.99% so thats still a big saving.

Here's the killer they don't tell you about with credit card financing:

Once you don't pay the card off completely at the end of the month, you end up paying interest not only on the amount you are financing, but also on each month's current purchases for as long as you carry a balance. Also cards often have multiple rates for various categories, and guess what - what you pay each month goes to the lowest interest items. The only way you can make payments against the higher interest ones is after you've entirely payed off all of the low interest ones.

I would strongly recommned against no pre-paying for more than a very small quantity of lessons.

I would even more strongly recommend against not borrowing to pay for dance lessons.

And if you must borrow on a credit card DO NOT USE THAT CARD FOR ANYTING ELSE - make payments on the borrowed amount, but do not buy anything routine on a card that you will not be paying off in its entirity every month.

[Larinda McRaven]

Refund policy is refund of unused lessons within 30 days of purchase. Only 2 out of the 6 I would consider Pros. One left for another studio in California and the other one left to go to grad school. Another 2 couple quit so they can build their house taking up most of their time. 1 left to go back to work and the last one because of performance evaluation wasn't up to par.

With or without drama, with or without any kinda of plausible explanation... when teachers leave a studio it basically comes down to there not being a great enough incentive to stay. If you don't really like being there, you can find any diplomatic reason to leave.

[syncopationator]

Based on personal experience, my advice to you is not to it. At least not for so many lessons. By making such a large purchase up front you are giving up your flexibility to take lessons elsewhere in the future. Also, there is less incentive for the studio to work hard for your business since they have already collected for all your lessons. By purchasing a much smaller package, say 10-20 lessons, you keep them honest. They will have to continue to provide excellent customer service (i.e. making sure that you are working with the instructor you want) since they will want you to purchase another 10-20 lessons as soon as your package is done.

There was a horror story in the news about a lady in Japan that spent $1 million for unlimited lifetime lessons, only to have issues with her instructor soon after. This is an extreme case, but the theory is the same. Not just in dancing but in any service related industry. Quality is lost when you purchase in bulk.

What you should try to do, if you can negotiate with your studio, is commit to purchasing 100 lessons, but pay in installments. If you can do this, set it up so that you are never paying ahead for more than 10 lessons or so. This way, they will still need to work for your business so that you don't leave and they lose the constant income stream.

[Larinda McRaven]

I just now started to sell packages over 5, because there are students who are BEGGING for large packages, as they are accustomed to. But these are people who are paying by check or cash. The ones that realize that the discount they save on the purchase is eaten away by interest never bother.

I think 100 is too much liability to put into a studios hands. Technically a studio that has pre-paid lessons on the books is always in the red. The money leaves to pay bills, yet the studio owes out a years worth of lessons and paychecks. Some studios use the sales thing to get a flow of cash moving when they hit that empty spot... when they have used up the last of the reserve. Always borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. It is not a healthy cycle to get into.

[danceronice]

Actually... 4 have left your studio in under a year, myself included.

You, and I know one other who left a month before I came, but I've only been there since November. However, I wasn't surprised to hear you'd left. Didn't sound indicative of either BIG HUGE DRAMA or financial instability. Slightly higher attrition rate than skating coaches at clubs, but then dance instructors seem to have more flexibility in where they can go.

And just moving is driving me nuts. Building a house...I might not just quit a job, I might go into hiding!

Chris Stratton brought up another issue I was hestitant to mention because it's not really my business how other people manage their credit, but I also wouldn't buy if I didn't think there was a reasonable chance of my paying the card off before interest became an issue. (I will, for example, have money in September to pay off these lessons to Visa, when a CD matures and becomes ready cash again.) But if there is no way you're going to pay this off, I wouldn't risk your credit rating. And I know what 100 of my privates would cost, even at a 20% discount--it would be more than I have, without dumping investments.

[latingal]

Agree with many of the posters on this thread. If it were me, I'd say no. The largest package of lessons I've ever taken is 10 at a time - for a small discount (and I paid by check).

[reb]

always in the red.

borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. It is not a healthy cycle to get into.
spot on

[Laura]

As someone who recently paid off ALL her debts except for her mortgage, I must say that not owing anyone anything is a really healthy and liberating feeling! Don't let dancing drag you into debt, even for a "deal."

They seem to want money and commitment...maybe you can make up a counter-offer deal for them that will protect you but still give you a discount and still give them the feeling that you aren't about to leave the studio

[Larinda McRaven]

You, and I know one other who left a month before I came, but I've only been there since November. However, I wasn't surprised to hear you'd left. Didn't sound indicative of either BIG HUGE DRAMA or financial instability. Slightly higher attrition rate than skating coaches at clubs, but then dance instructors seem to have more flexibility in where they can go.

Who left in October??

If a teacher leaves with a big drama, well you can always chalk that up to a crazy teacher. But when many teachers slip away quietly and constantly one would say still waters run very very deep.

I do not envy you having to move... it sucks. I pretty much have cemented my furniture to the floor in the thought that it makes it less likely that I will move again. Enjoy!

[SPratt74]

I think that for me to sign any contract, I would have to know if the pro was going to be in the area for a long time to come... much less the studio (and you can't predict that). If the pro was a top pro and not someone that just started teaching. And if the contract stated that I could get a refund in case something came up to where I couldn't dance like if you suffered an injury or something like that or you became sick or if you had to move for whatever reason etc. It's just that you never really know what can happen in life, so things like that could set you back in your dancing career. I would make sure the contract met all my needs rather than their needs before I would sign it.

And I think that if many instructors are leaving, it seems to make a person wonder a bit. Sometimes stories are made up, because people (mainly the owners of course)don't want to tell you the reason why they actually left. But I am very cautious about high turnovers from having worked retail for a long time. I've been told things only to find out later from the people that it didn't happen the way that I was told.

So, just be careful. It's your money. You can decide what to do with it. I'm probably real cautious just because I don't make that much. So the details really matter to me. But that's just me though. ;)

[danceronice]

Well, on the plus side, I'm moving to Waltham, so I can walk to the studio (and to the commuter rail, and closer to all my jobs.) I'm going to save a bundle on wear and tear on the car and gas. And I love the apartment--it's just packing and moving and dealing with the management here is turning my hair gray even faster!

I was told that was when another person's old coach left--they may have been estimating "a month". But since I've been here, AFAIK, you're the only one. When it comes to buying lessons, I rather suspect my private instructors aren't going anywhere, anyway. I don't get a shaky feeling (like I do at the job I'm trying desperately to replace, so I can quit--of something like twenty people in our original hire group, only three of us are left and two have resumes out everywhere. Only some of those 17 can be accounted for by "leaving to go to school". Well, there was one "fired for cause", but even that isn't a good sign.)

I think the deal-killer for me is the credit card debt. I will do just about anything I have to to keep dancing, but destroying my credit rating is where I draw the line.

[cy_phi]

My studio is currently offering a 20% discount on 100 lessons. The only caveat is the entire 100 lessons must be prepaid up front.

The plain simple answer is "No".

[suburbaknght]

I'd wait awhile. Make sure your teachers are staying and then buy the block and ask for the discount if they're no longer offering it.

[HoboChilli]

And I think that if many instructors are leaving, it seems to make a person wonder a bit. Sometimes stories are made up, because people (mainly the owners of course)don't want to tell you the reason why they actually left. But I am very cautious about high turnovers from having worked retail for a long time. I've been told things only to find out later from the people that it didn't happen the way that I was told.


I know what you mean. The instructor that left recently at the silver level was said by management that he had left to attend grad school. When I brought it up to my instructor, she said "oh, he was fired but hopefully he can come back in the future". I didn't know anyone can be fired and still be welcomed back in the future for any job. A few weeks earlier that instructor through small talk told me that he was planning to go back to grad school. So my assumption is that he gave notice that he was leaving to attend grad school and the management fired / forced him to quit immediately so the studio wouldn't lose any of the instructor's students.

[waltzgirl]

However you feel about your instructor, it will be the management that you contract with if you buy the package, and it sounds like you don't trust them.

Make them a counter-offer: you'll contract for 100 lessons at a 15% discount, with a payment plan to pay it off over 10 months (assuming you'll use the lessons over a year).

If they are on the up and up, they should go for it. They can put the contract on their books as an asset and be assured of the regular cash flow for the next 10 months. If they continue to push for full payment in advance, I'd assume they are strapped for cash and the business is shaky.

[tangotime]

Slight correction-- The incident, was Hong Kong-, not Japan-- and it was $ 8 million!! ( h.k.$ ? ) it was negotiated by a very high profile dance " team ".

The contract details were interesting , to say the least . ( and the reason for its cancellation )

The balance of unused lessons , was refunded.

[Angel HI]

In conjunction with Chris' post #14, also, if you end up paying interest on the credit card, then the lessons are actually more than the amount quoted you by the studio. You are not really getting a 20% discount, you are paying what you 'saved' at the studio to the cc company.

In my studios, we only sold 5-10-20 hour packages. The 20 hr only went to certain patrons (Angels...OK, kind of a play on words), and persons at special times. Even as a teacher/business owner, I see no reason for maintaining 100 hours on the books, or tieing up a client's money for the length of time that it will take you to use it. Legit studios will hold the funds in some sort of escrow until you use them. Why should I hold your money and get the interest rather than you?

[Angel HI]

Slight correction-- The incident, was Hong Kong-, not Japan-- and it was $ 8 million!! ( h.k.$ ? ) it was negotiated by a very high profile dance " team ".

The contract details were interesting , to say the least . ( and the reason for its cancellation )

The balance of unused lessons , was refunded.

I had forgotten about this. I am happy to know that the funds were returned. Do you know whatever happened to "them" over this? Since it is not the subject of this thread, perhaps you can PM me with the info.

[Twilight_Elena]

The franchise studio I started at as a student (and also worked at as a teacher for a year) sold packages from 5 to 200 hours of lessons. Quite obviously, selling bigger packages brings in cash to the studio, so they'd want to sell to you. If you can, getting a bigger package will ultimately save you money. But on the other hand, it means you're stuck at this studio till you finish your lessons. I know of friends of mine who bought big packages and in a few months, all of a sudden, their teacher left the franchise. But their contract was with the franchise, not the teacher, so they had to continue with a different teacher. Very often they didn't like, that teacher.
As a newbie teacher, I kept giving money to my franchise to have lessons with my teacher. But I didn't dare buy anything bigger than 20 hours, knowing that my teacher (who is actively and successfully competing) could decide to stop teaching for a year, like so many have before, and I'd be stuck with a teacher who could give me nothing new.
So. As others pointed out, franchises want to sell. But they're not always the devil. I'd say go for a smaller package. Maybe 30 or 40 hours. You'd still have a discount (not that much, I'm sure) but you'd also have a great flexibility.
Remember: the teacher is very important. If you've found teachers there that are good enough and make you happy to be going to your lessons, then stick to them. Just try to keep yourself open to other possibilities. They might go independent, or leave, or who knows what else. And it's never good to have such a debt on your credit card.

T_E

[mamboqueen]

Should I go for the 20% discount? Are there anything else I should think about before charging it to my credit card? My credit card is 6.99% so thats still a big saving.

BTW, Since I've been dancing at the studio for the past 6 month, 6 instructors have left. Is this normal?

I would say "no" if you have to put it on a credit card (and if you're insistent on doing that, there are plenty of 0% ones around...I'm the Queen of Refinancing).

The other thing to consider is that you might blow through those lessons faster because you have already paid for them up front. It's really easy to do. If you don't pay off the credit card as quickly, you'll end up owing money on lessons you took a couple of months ago -- something I try to avoid at all costs.

Lastly, I guess I agree with those who are leery of the revolving door situation. As much as your pro may think she'll be there for a year, there's really no way of knowing what may happen in a year...for your teacher or for you!

[syncopationator]

Slight correction-- The incident, was Hong Kong-, not Japan-- and it was $ 8 million!! ( h.k.$ ? ) it was negotiated by a very high profile dance " team ".

The contract details were interesting , to say the least . ( and the reason for its cancellation )

The balance of unused lessons , was refunded.

After some legal action, or the threat of, I presume.

[syncopationator]

Another thing to think about, which is much worse than if your favorite teacher leaves, is what if the studio goes under? If this is a franchise studio, you probably don't have to worry about because you can get your refund from corporate, but if this is an independent studio (not sure if this was discussed earlier) then you will be out a lot of money with no way to collect.

[Larinda McRaven]

Make them a counter-offer: you'll contract for 100 lessons at a 15% discount, with a payment plan to pay it off over 10 months (assuming you'll use the lessons over a year).

If they are on the up and up, they should go for it.

If they are on the up and up, the should decline this offer. The deal is PREPAY... UP FRONT, so the studio can collect the interest. Why on earth would they give a 10 (15 no less) percent discount on money the won't even see for ten month? Because essentially that counter offer was, "Let me have an even greater discount, but I will only purchase 10 at a time." So they lose out all around.

As Danceronice said above... she bought 40 and then she corrected herself... she understood the loophole she had found... she paid for 20 now and is supposed to pay another 20 later... but she got the discount as if she prepaid 40. The owner of her studio actually hates that. As teachers, in the meetings, we would get chastized at for letting that happen. She slipped through the cracks. That is NOT how bulk discounts are supposed to work.

The only reason for a studio to give a discount for bulk is if they get the money up front. The contracts are not to solidify a students attendance, anyone can jump ship at anytime. The contracts are to get the money up front.

*******

And note, some studios pay their teachers what is called earned income... essentially they get paid based on what they bring in, so a teacher that sells a discounted package gets a discounted paycheck!

[tangotime]

After some legal action, or the threat of, I presume.


Actually, from what my sources tell me-- no. Coaches in high profile positions, are never going to " test " , the waters .

[tangotime]

This is the old chestnut in chain schools -- Am I " buying " the teacher-- or am I buying the system ?

[Larinda McRaven]

Right, basically you are buying the system. Students get attatched to teachers and assume they are buying the teachers time. They are paying the check to the Studio and it is up to the studio to provide the lessons, not the teacher. So even if your favorite teacher leaves...

Teachers say "That is MY student"
Studios say "Aaah, but they wrote the check to the STUDIO!"
Students say "I belong to NO ONE and will take lessons with whoever I choose."
But technically the Studio is right. They have a legal(?) contract, the others are matters of preference.

[etp777]

It's all been said, but I'd say no. Was recently trying to get a job overseas for a 12mo contract, and i went into it expecting my teacher wouldn't be around in a year, and not tying down a new contract (mine is just about up) knowing that.

I did buy a 50 lesson contract with discount at mine, but it was initial down payment and then monthly, didn't have to pay whole thing up front, could cancel it any time. So noticably less liability.

[samina]

i'm definitely on the "don't do it" side of the argument.

the other piece to consider is, it doesn't sound like you'd be guaranteed lessons with a particular pro which means you really don't know what you're paying for. i wouldn't ever want to shell out that kind of money for someone open-ended on their end...

fwiw, i pay as i go and have an independent pro. i keep 20s in my pocket for whenever i'm able to take a lesson, and because i'm not with a huge studio or franchise, my lessons tend to be cheaper than elsewhere. you're in an area where you might be able to find a similar situation, enabling your money to go further without your getting in over your head with something unclear.

[etp777]

Yeah, definitely not worth it if you don't get a particular pro (if that's what you want). Manager of my studio knows that I'm there for that pro, with the understanding that while I won't guarantee that I'd change studios, i'd certainly take lessons with every teacher in region (among FAs) before I chose my new teacher, and wouldn't necessarily stay at that studio. Unless of course my pro was leaving to teach at another studio in the area, then wouldn't decide, would just move to that studio. :)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Just wondering, didn't someone on this forum wanted to add a note to their contract with the studio that if their teacher leaves, they get full refund, because he was the only teacher at the studio who knew AT? I wonder how that went.

[fascination]

i'm definitely on the "don't do it" side of the argument.

the other piece to consider is, it doesn't sound like you'd be guaranteed lessons with a particular pro which means you really don't know what you're paying for. i wouldn't ever want to shell out that kind of money for someone open-ended on their end...

fwiw, i pay as i go and have an independent pro. i keep 20s in my pocket for whenever i'm able to take a lesson, and because i'm not with a huge studio or franchise, my lessons tend to be cheaper than elsewhere. you're in an area where you might be able to find a similar situation, enabling your money to go further without your getting in over your head with something unclear.yep....I pay pro and no other fee unless we go to other space for coaching...I pay as I go...and it works well for both of us

[Cal]

Another thing to think about, which is much worse than if your favorite teacher leaves, is what if the studio goes under? If this is a franchise studio, you probably don't have to worry about because you can get your refund from corporate, but if this is an independent studio (not sure if this was discussed earlier) then you will be out a lot of money with no way to collect.

I'm not convinced that the franchise corporate office is liable for giving refunds if the individually owned franchise studio does not do so. It may be that, for public relations purposes, corporate would assist you in seeking a refund, but that isn't the same thing as being required to provide the refund.

However, check your state laws.: I live in a State in which dance studios/dance teachers that take in more than $50 in prepaid lesson fees must be bonded with the State and they must use written contracts, and they must abide by several other requirements. I think it's a minimum $10,000 bond that must be deposited with the State. It protects students in situations in which a studio/teacher disappears overnight.

The state law applies equally to franchise and independent studios. In my experience, however, it is only the franchise studios - at least the ones that I have taken lessons from - that acutally abide by the State laws. And, I've purchased prepaid 20-lesson packages from a franchise studio on occasion. The independent instructors that I've taken lessons from - well, they don't use written contracts and I don't ask a lot of questions about their position on State laws, written contracts and bond certificates; I just pay them AFTER each lesson and I don't ask about pre-paid packages. That way, I'm not going to be the one to get them into any trouble with the state.

[waltzgirl]

If they are on the up and up, the should decline this offer. The deal is PREPAY... UP FRONT, so the studio can collect the interest. Why on earth would they give a 10 (15 no less) percent discount on money the won't even see for ten month? Because essentially that counter offer was, "Let me have an even greater discount, but I will only purchase 10 at a time." So they lose out all around.

As Danceronice said above... she bought 40 and then she corrected herself... she understood the loophole she had found... she paid for 20 now and is supposed to pay another 20 later... but she got the discount as if she prepaid 40. The owner of her studio actually hates that. As teachers, in the meetings, we would get chastized at for letting that happen. She slipped through the cracks. That is NOT how bulk discounts are supposed to work.

The only reason for a studio to give a discount for bulk is if they get the money up front. The contracts are not to solidify a students attendance, anyone can jump ship at anytime. The contracts are to get the money up front.

*******

And note, some studios pay their teachers what is called earned income... essentially they get paid based on what they bring in, so a teacher that sells a discounted package gets a discounted paycheck!


I guess I've got a great studio. And they've been in business a long time and are very successful, so they must be doing something right.

Actually, the largest package they sell is 20 lessons, and it's nearly a 25% discount from the per-lesson price (which is quite high). I like buying packages because they are convenient and I can just dance for a period of time without having to worry about paying for the lessons each time.

I usually get 20 to 40 lessons at a time, but at one point, I was short of cash, so offered to contract for 100 if I could pay it off monthly. They didn't seem to hate the idea. I'd been a steady customer for several years at that point and they knew I was telling the truth when I said I just didn't have a chunk of cash at that moment. So their choice was a steady income for the next 10 months, or nothing at all. And if they had refused, as much as I love my pro, I would probably have looked around for another teacher that I could pay on time, rather than stop dancing. So, by forgoing a little interest (that they wouldn't have gotten anyway because I couldn't pay the lump sum), they have retained my customer loyalty and made much more money off me in the long run than that tiny bit of interest.

Larinda, you've left the "get the cash now" studio, haven't you?

[and123]

As Danceronice said above... she bought 40 and then she corrected herself... she understood the loophole she had found... she paid for 20 now and is supposed to pay another 20 later... but she got the discount as if she prepaid 40. The owner of her studio actually hates that. As teachers, in the meetings, we would get chastized at for letting that happen. She slipped through the cracks. That is NOT how bulk discounts are supposed to work.

Yeah, I saw that and went :shock::shock::shock:!!! I have a very difficult time pulling 40 lessons' worth of $$$$ out of my butt at once. I would LOVE a pay-some-now-pay-some-later deal, or something in between the current 5-lesson-rate and 40-lesson-rate. Ah well. If wishes were horses, right?....
http://foldies.wtms.net/poophorse.gif

[Larinda McRaven]

Yes. I had my own business for ten years before. I, for whatever insanity, thought it was a good idea to become an employee again. But it did not sit well with me when the owners view point of business was against the grain for so many things I had done successfully for so long...

But in their defense, they don't say or demand immediate cash up front, there is a small grace period of a month or so to finish the final payment. Which is fair.

There are several of my students now who really want the big package of 40, and are more than willing to pay up front. Only one asked for a full month to pay. But no matter what I vehemently refuse to sell more than 40 at a time though... no matter what.

The ones that only want to pay small amounts continually monthly, pay the rate for the small package that lasts about one month.

I am fair, I don't cut deals, everyone is treated the same. No "specials" for special people. I used to rent space in a studio that didn't advertise their prices. And every student was offered a different deal, based on the car they drove, or how much they begged, or if they were "hot"... Not fair, the price is the price, regardless of who you are.

[Larinda McRaven]

Yeah, I saw that and went :shock::shock::shock:!!! I have a very difficult time pulling 40 lessons' worth of $$$$ out of my butt at once. I would LOVE a pay-some-now-pay-some-later deal, or something in between the current 5-lesson-rate and 40-lesson-rate. Ah well. If wishes were horses, right?....
http://foldies.wtms.net/poophorse.gif

See, cutting deals for one... means you better cut deals for everyone... once other people in the studio find out about it they feel gypped.

(Not that DOI was cut a deal, she just innocently walked into a loophole.)

[and123]

I hear ya. People talk. At my old studio, we called it "As The Studio Turns" :rolleyes:

[HoboChilli]

See, cutting deals for one... means you better cut deals for everyone... once other people in the studio find out about it they feel gypped.

(Not that DOI was cut a deal, she just innocently walked into a loophole.)


One student told me she prepaid for 100 lessons and got all group lessons for free. I inquired with one of the owners what I got as a bonus for getting private lessons and its only the Friday night lesson and dance party. I feel a little gypped since there's no mention anywhere in their policy ordering a certain number of lessons or prepaying lessons will get all group lessons free. :(

[fascination]

lol...I am so glad that I mostly dance in pro's living room...and he is so great about stuff like that

[samina]

must be a large room...?

[fascination]

no...but I have very scarred elbows(textrued walls)....and we are elsewhere two other days of the week...I have, if you recall, come perilously close to catapulting out the closed window on VW

[danceronice]

We pay for group lessons totally separately--also a lot cheaper, but that's only logical. (Group lessons and semi-privates were always cheaper for riding, too.)

Also, the people I deal with when paying aren't the owners, they're the managers and AM. There was also some confusion about how coaching lessons with visiting pros are paid for. I've found it easiest to talk to the manager if there's a money confusion matter.

I like being able to prepay for things myself--for skating, it's pay as you go, or it's pay afterwards, and for my bookkeeping, anyway, that's harder to keep track of. But I won't pay for anything that involves maxing out a credit card or going into interest debt--doesn't just go for dancing!

And I finally met someone who dances who understands why I don't blink at prices in skating or dancing--she owns a Dutch Warmblood. After you've paid for horseback riding, very few other sports seem all THAT bad.

[samina]

I have, if you recall, come perilously close to catapulting out the closed window on VW

yes, i do recall... and wondered at the time what you were up to!

[ChelD]

IMO buying a discount package is only a good deal if you can afford to pay for it - not charge it, and even so, 100 lessons, seems like a lot. Regardless of the health of the studio or longevity of the teachers, there is no guarantee on your own continued health or priorities.

Do they have a shorter package, say 50 lessons, that you can afford to pay for up front without charging it and that wouldn't take so long to use up?

[fascination]

yes, i do recall... and wondered at the time what you were up to!
swing dahling:cool:

[samina]

one day soon you'll probly have to keep yourself from chicken-walking thru those windows! lol...

[fascination]

going to have to have a talk w/ pro on those


here's my thing

dancing a sexy or showy move w/ someone who I don't find attractive but who finds me attractive=easy

dancing a sexy or showy move with someone I find attractive who finds me attractive=yummy, albeit somewhat distracting

dancing a sexy/showy move with someone who doesn't find me the least bit attractive= very embarrassing and difficult


so, either he has to learn to fake it better or I have to think of someone else while I am doing that step...PLUS...I hate that step

[HoboChilli]

Now that I started thinking of all the pros and cons of buying more lessons, my studio recently had all the instructors tell each of their students that there were signs that the dance party atmosphere was becoming more "negative". So all the students that were taking private lessons are asked to be upbeat and cheerful all the time since any negativity can make potential students reluctant to buy private lessons.

I see ladies all the time sitting out at the dance party zoning out or just plain not happy watching others dance. When I sit out, its usually I'm exhausted or that the Hustle everyones' dancing to makes me dizzy.

All I can say is that people go to the dance party to have fun and if somethings bothering them, they're doing the best they can to be upbeat and not let their personal life pull them down. But this is the strangest request I've ever heard from any business. Its basically comes down to "if you're not happy, please don't come to the dance party by bringing your negativity through the door".

[LucyDiamond]

Let me pass on my experience with purchasing packages at a discount. The studio I was at had packages with 10 lessons. I purchased 2 at one time for a total of 20 lessons thinking my pros would be there long enough for me to use them up. At the time I was taking 2 lessons a week, 1 each with 2 different pros so, that was only 10 weeks (2.5 months). When I was about half way through the lessons, my main pro left. Ok, I thought, no problem I'll take lessons with my main pro as an independent, and finish up my remaining lessons with my other pro. When I had about 5 lessons left, my other pro also quit. Fortunately, he was around long enough that I could finish up my lessons with him but, I had to take lessons 4 days in a row to finish them. My last lesson was on the last day my other pro was at the studio. 2 years later, that studio is still in business but, I had/have no desire to take lessons with anyone else at the studio.

The reason I'm sharing this is because no matter how stable it seems where you are at, be careful when purchasing packages. Things can change overnight.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Now that I started thinking of all the pros and cons of buying more lessons, my studio recently had all the instructors tell each of their students that there were signs that the dance party atmosphere was becoming more "negative". So all the students that were taking private lessons are asked to be upbeat and cheerful all the time since any negativity can make potential students reluctant to buy private lessons.

I see ladies all the time sitting out at the dance party zoning out or just plain not happy watching others dance. When I sit out, its usually I'm exhausted or that the Hustle everyones' dancing to makes me dizzy.

All I can say is that people go to the dance party to have fun and if somethings bothering them, they're doing the best they can to be upbeat and not let their personal life pull them down. But this is the strangest request I've ever heard from any business. Its basically comes down to "if you're not happy, please don't come to the dance party by bringing your negativity through the door".

Of course, the athmosphere is becoming negative with so much staff turnover, which creates general tension. The place you're describing begins to sound a lot like the place in our town which went under.

[Dance Jasmin]

I'm not convinced that the franchise corporate office is liable for giving refunds if the individually owned franchise studio does not do so. It may be that, for public relations purposes, corporate would assist you in seeking a refund, but that isn't the same thing as being required to provide the refund.


Hi all ,
as owner of one of this chain studios , I can assure you that the corporate office and specially the regional director does give refunds ( if any of his studios for any reason is not able to) as we have joint account with him where we keep amount of money equal to the amount of prepaid and not taken lessons. You can't open franchise without to open this account. And specially my studio is very flexible . I dont like to sale more then 20 lessons at one time . And if they would like to pay monthly even better for me , so I dont have to worry about refunding the money if they dont stick with the studio . After being together for 1 or 2 years and both sides feel comfortable , they could purchase more then this 20 lessons and pay any way they like ( mostly credit cards for miles )

[DanceMentor]

I don't think I will ever believe in purchasing 100 lessons. There is so much that can happen.

As a negotiating tactic, I would say that making such a large offer is going to require you to do some comparison shopping in your area. I would then find out some of the credentials of teachers in your area and the prices they charge. You said you really have nothing to compare to, so I think now is the time to start learning about what else exists in your area.

In the same conversation, make a counter offer of 10 lessons at 20% off, and let them know you will but 20 the next time if you feel good about things after 10 more.

I'm assuming they are asking you for around $6000-7000. You need to look at how fast you make that kind of money. Regardless of the discount, you still need to spend at a rate that is less than or equal to your expendable income. It would make a lot more sense to buy smaller blocks of lessons, even if the discount is less.

[Angel HI]

Hobochili, Regarding your post #61, it just seems that you are at a bad studio. I am not a big fan of chain schools for many reasons, but note that there are good...that is to say, honest and reputable ones.

As I, and others have, mentioned in earlier posts, there is really no reason for paying these kinds of fees other than to make the studio money. Studios are in business to make money, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the studio remains honest and ethical. Consider that you are enrolling in a collegiate program...one where you attend classes on a weekly schedule, and work toward a goal/degree (many studios, franchises, etc. offer various...one can actually obtain a BA at mine). If you receive some benefit for prepayment of lump sum hours, then pay for them as you would a collegiate course...a quarter or semester at a time. College students do not pay for the whole degree or year at once; why should you?

Lastly, the parties are for having fun, and no one wants to have negativisms bringing them down. Yet, I believe that this would reflect a problem with the studio or the party rather than the clientele.

[fascination]

Now that I started thinking of all the pros and cons of buying more lessons, my studio recently had all the instructors tell each of their students that there were signs that the dance party atmosphere was becoming more "negative". So all the students that were taking private lessons are asked to be upbeat and cheerful all the time since any negativity can make potential students reluctant to buy private lessons.

I see ladies all the time sitting out at the dance party zoning out or just plain not happy watching others dance. When I sit out, its usually I'm exhausted or that the Hustle everyones' dancing to makes me dizzy.

All I can say is that people go to the dance party to have fun and if somethings bothering them, they're doing the best they can to be upbeat and not let their personal life pull them down. But this is the strangest request I've ever heard from any business. Its basically comes down to "if you're not happy, please don't come to the dance party by bringing your negativity through the door".
yea...I have some issues with this...a particular franchise I was at made you clap at the end of every dance and wouldn't allow you to say no to a dance and I found both of those things very heavy handed...at the end of the dance I would rather thank the gentleman and chat as we walk off the floor not clap like a trained seal...at what?...and, while I almost never, in fact i can't even think of a time when I have, turned a gentleman down...I object to some studio telling me I can't...there is occasioanlly a valid reason...stuff like that makes me nuts...and as for moods, a real dance community doesn't look like a bunch of "smiling prisoners of happytown" they are real people, more like the island of misfit toys, who should be allowed and welcome to be who they are however they are short of something disruptive...crappy moods are why people need to dance...sheesh

[DanceMentor]

I missed this post about the party. Something just isn't right here.
I know you can do better.
Can you make some phone calls to other studios in your area?
(then let us know what you find out)

[samina]

makes me wonder why they're not happy in the first place... if the studio is taking care of them & making sure they're dancing, they're gonna be fluttering about like giddy butterflies. JME...

[HoboChilli]

At the dance party after every student was told "don't be negative", I actually became more negative and depressed. I didn't know if they're talking about me smiling or frowning, body posture, or something I'm saying to others. So every time I wanted to say something to someone else at the party, I kept thinking "is this negative?" In the end I wasn't sure anything I said was negative cause everything can be taken the wrong way because everyone is different. So after that I just basically told my self I'm going to treat people as how I want to be treated. Dignity and self worth is more important.

I live in a small town with only one other studio. I've been there and so far my current studio seems better. My other option is to drive 2 hours across state line to another city. When my instructor quits, I'll follow her to another studio and worst case scenario be a weekend dance warrior taking private lessons across state line.

I believe the instructors that stay at the studio are unwilling to quit and move because of friends and family. There's been times that my instructor would tell me she's frustrated at studio management. Then she'd go back to her cheery upbeat self. In the beginning I didn't pay much attention to it. Now it just feels management is taking notes who's being a good boy or girl at the studio. Hope I don't get a coal in my stocking.

[fascination]

makes me wonder why they're not happy in the first place... if the studio is taking care of them & making sure they're dancing, they're gonna be fluttering about like giddy butterflies. JME...well...maybe, but we all have personal lives as well...and some of us can leave them at the door more easily than others

[Angel HI]

I live in a small town with only one other studio. I've been there and so far my current studio seems better.

There's been times that my instructor would tell me she's frustrated at studio management.

Now it just feels management is taking notes who's being a good boy or girl at the studio. Hope I don't get a coal in my stocking.

Exactly what I referred to in my last post #66. Perhaps, we should change the focus of this thread to "How To Make The Best of A Mediocre Situation" (how to continue to enjoy the dancing, and get the best from your dancing regardless of the other elements).

[DanceMentor]

At the dance party after every student was told "don't be negative", I actually became more negative and depressed. I didn't know if they're talking about me smiling or frowning, body posture, or something I'm saying to others. So every time I wanted to say something to someone else at the party, I kept thinking "is this negative?" In the end I wasn't sure anything I said was negative cause everything can be taken the wrong way because everyone is different. So after that I just basically told my self I'm going to treat people as how I want to be treated. Dignity and self worth is more important.

I live in a small town with only one other studio. I've been there and so far my current studio seems better. My other option is to drive 2 hours across state line to another city. When my instructor quits, I'll follow her to another studio and worst case scenario be a weekend dance warrior taking private lessons across state line.

I believe the instructors that stay at the studio are unwilling to quit and move because of friends and family. There's been times that my instructor would tell me she's frustrated at studio management. Then she'd go back to her cheery upbeat self. In the beginning I didn't pay much attention to it. Now it just feels management is taking notes who's being a good boy or girl at the studio. Hope I don't get a coal in my stocking.


I could be wrong, but don't be surprised if there isn't some other lesser known place where some excellent instructors rent space that you don't know about yet. Often you find the better instructors work for themselves and rent space, versus working for someone and making far less per hour.

[foxtrotress]

I felt compelled to respond to your question. My immediate reaction is be very wary and to proceed with caution. Allow me to explain why. I have worked at 2 studios where we would periodically sell dance lessons in bulk packages at steeply discounted rates. At one studio my boss pulled me aside before a renewal lesson and told me if I did not sell a 100 lesson package to a student I, and the rest of the staff, would not get paid because the studio was broke. When that student asked if I would stay for another year I hedged. I was very unhappy with the manager's questionalble ethics and had been contemplating leaving for sometime. The student bought the lessons after the manager reassured him that he could get a refund if he wasn't happy with a different teacher. I ended up leaving a month later and the student didn't see a dime. At the second studio I worked at we would sell the bulk lessons during our bi yearly tournaments. Once again, there was enormous pressure from the management to "sell" these lessons. One summer I sold 2 100 lesson packages. The manager was very clear and explained to the students that they were purchasing the lessons from the studio and the studio did not guarantee a teacher. Although the students understood this it was their intention to take the lessons with me as their instructor. When I left they were understandably upset and felt betrayed.

I currently run a dance business and refuse to sell anything larger than a 10 lesson package. I feel that it is more beneficial to students, staff, and me because:

1. If a staff member quits then it is a very small number of lessons for another instructor to teach out.
2. It creates a higher standard of teaching. It is very easy to get complacent when you know the student has 75 lessons on the book. This motivates me, and the staff be on top of our game at all times.
3. From a business perspective it is much, much, much better to have monies coming in monthly. Imagine how careful you would have to be if you got paid just once a year as opposed to once or twice a month.

In my opinion there is no real good reason for lowering your prices 20% except in desperate circumstances. Of course, I do not know you or your studio. I just want to elaborate with my insider experience.

[SPratt74]

I felt compelled to respond to your question. My immediate reaction is be very wary and to proceed with caution. Allow me to explain why. I have worked at 2 studios where we would periodically sell dance lessons in bulk packages at steeply discounted rates. At one studio my boss pulled me aside before a renewal lesson and told me if I did not sell a 100 lesson package to a student I, and the rest of the staff, would not get paid because the studio was broke. When that student asked if I would stay for another year I hedged. I was very unhappy with the manager's questionalble ethics and had been contemplating leaving for sometime. The student bought the lessons after the manager reassured him that he could get a refund if he wasn't happy with a different teacher. I ended up leaving a month later and the student didn't see a dime. At the second studio I worked at we would sell the bulk lessons during our bi yearly tournaments. Once again, there was enormous pressure from the management to "sell" these lessons. One summer I sold 2 100 lesson packages. The manager was very clear and explained to the students that they were purchasing the lessons from the studio and the studio did not guarantee a teacher. Although the students understood this it was their intention to take the lessons with me as their instructor. When I left they were understandably upset and felt betrayed.

I currently run a dance business and refuse to sell anything larger than a 10 lesson package. I feel that it is more beneficial to students, staff, and me because:

1. If a staff member quits then it is a very small number of lessons for another instructor to teach out.
2. It creates a higher standard of teaching. It is very easy to get complacent when you know the student has 75 lessons on the book. This motivates me, and the staff be on top of our game at all times.
3. From a business perspective it is much, much, much better to have monies coming in monthly. Imagine how careful you would have to be if you got paid just once a year as opposed to once or twice a month.

In my opinion there is no real good reason for lowering your prices 20% except in desperate circumstances. Of course, I do not know you or your studio. I just want to elaborate with my insider experience.

First of all, welcome to DF! But most importantly, thanks for posting this information. Your post was very interesting to read. :D

[latingal]

Welcome to DF Foxtrotress, hope I will see you around the boards!

[Angel HI]

I felt compelled to respond to your question.

Welcome to the DF, and good points, all.

[HoboChilli]

I felt compelled to respond to your question. My immediate reaction is be very wary and to proceed with caution. Allow me to explain why. I have worked at 2 studios where we would periodically sell dance lessons in bulk packages at steeply discounted rates. At one studio my boss pulled me aside before a renewal lesson and told me if I did not sell a 100 lesson package to a student I, and the rest of the staff, would not get paid because the studio was broke. When that student asked if I would stay for another year I hedged. I was very unhappy with the manager's questionalble ethics and had been contemplating leaving for sometime. The student bought the lessons after the manager reassured him that he could get a refund if he wasn't happy with a different teacher. I ended up leaving a month later and the student didn't see a dime. At the second studio I worked at we would sell the bulk lessons during our bi yearly tournaments. Once again, there was enormous pressure from the management to "sell" these lessons. One summer I sold 2 100 lesson packages. The manager was very clear and explained to the students that they were purchasing the lessons from the studio and the studio did not guarantee a teacher. Although the students understood this it was their intention to take the lessons with me as their instructor. When I left they were understandably upset and felt betrayed.

I currently run a dance business and refuse to sell anything larger than a 10 lesson package. I feel that it is more beneficial to students, staff, and me because:

1. If a staff member quits then it is a very small number of lessons for another instructor to teach out.
2. It creates a higher standard of teaching. It is very easy to get complacent when you know the student has 75 lessons on the book. This motivates me, and the staff be on top of our game at all times.
3. From a business perspective it is much, much, much better to have monies coming in monthly. Imagine how careful you would have to be if you got paid just once a year as opposed to once or twice a month.

In my opinion there is no real good reason for lowering your prices 20% except in desperate circumstances. Of course, I do not know you or your studio. I just want to elaborate with my insider experience.

Thanks for being informative. Since my current studio is also my first, my impression was that all studios were conducting their business from the Machievelli handbook. I'm glad to see your business is free of high pressure sales tactics and overbearing rules.

[samina]

well...maybe, but we all have personal lives as well...and some of us can leave them at the door more easily than others

yah, true -- i didn't mean to suggest all that fades away. was thinking only of the dance culture of the studio. one particular studio i went to, everyone sat around all droopy, without a spirit of fun or connection. coincidentally, i arrived by myself & was a first-time visitor, but not one member of the staff asked me to dance... nobody expended any effort to ensure their guests were having fun. being a good host is paramount for good vibes.

my favorite place to go to is in hackensack, where some of the regionals are held... the owner is very pro-active making sure everyone is having a good time. he especially makes sure to seek out & dance with new people. i find it a very warm place to dance...

[mamboqueen]

my favorite place to go to is in hackensack, where some of the regionals are held... the owner is very pro-active making sure everyone is having a good time. he especially makes sure to seek out & dance with new people. i find it a very warm place to dance...

Would love to go on my next trip. You're right -- very warm and friendly peeps. My aunt and uncle LOVE taking lessons there.

[samina]

yep. i love their latin nights. this last year i've done ballroom socials either in nutley or the place where you have your recent lesson, because both places are very big on international.

[Me]

HoboChilli,

I’ve been reading your posts, your thoughts and ideas. The more you write, the more unsure you seem of making such a commitment. I think you should go with your gut instinct on this one, for many reasons.

I will give you reasons from a business point-of-view.

What does the business propose to do? Hold your money in escrow? Is this a contract for services? I am assuming this money exceeds the 5K mark, even with this discount. However, whether it is a contract for services or escrow, these questions become pointless as the business is offering no refund after 30 days. This is a key point. This tells me the business feels no obligation to hold the funds in escrow. They can spend the money as they please, though if you pursued legal recourse the story would be QUITE different. If the employees do seem to be leaving as rats from a sinking ship, and it is at this point that the business has approached you for a significant amount of money, this could spell trouble.

If you really want to buy a contract in such a seemingly unstable situation, then this is the ONLY reason I would recommend using a credit card, and ONLY if you can pay the full amount in one month. Most credit card companies allow a 60 day window for a reversal of charges. But even with that extension, you would still be extremely hard-pressed to use up 100 hours of private instruction.

All possible dark motives by the business aside, it is my opinion that no business should approach you with a contract for services coupled with such a limited refund policy. It is just bad business.

[danceronice]

That "act happy!" thing at the parties would actually bug me more. I'm usually happy at parties (except for that time I almost passed out, but that was a freak event.) THAT strikes me as rather weird. And a bit control-freakish. Also a sign of desperation.

As someone who LIKES buying multiple lessons, I will say this in defense of packages--it makes me the customer's life easier.

[JANATHOME]

I buy lessons in blocks from a chain studio for the convenience and a small cost savings. At this chain if you pay in cash they discount the cost 10%. You do pay the entire amount and then they give the 10% back to you in "free lessons". I have never been pressured to buy blocks of lessons... They just kind of hand you the price list, tell you about cash discounts and
you make your own decision. I usually buy enough lessons to last 3 months.

Just buying a group of lessons at this chain I pulled out my contract to see what the cancel policy is.....The contract says that the student can cancel the contract at anytime and be refunded for lessons not used less a 10% fee, 5% if the contact is over $1000. It did also state if the owner refuses a refund the national office and owner of the trade name would.... Interesting!!

When our instructor left to open his own studio the owner let us take a priviate lesson with the other instructors at the $10.00 intro price so we could make a decision on a new instructor which we thought was more than fair....

[SDsalsaguy]

Sounds like a very fair place indeed Jan.

[HoboChilli]

HoboChilli,

I’ve been reading your posts, your thoughts and ideas. The more you write, the more unsure you seem of making such a commitment. I think you should go with your gut instinct on this one, for many reasons.

I will give you reasons from a business point-of-view.

What does the business propose to do? Hold your money in escrow? Is this a contract for services? I am assuming this money exceeds the 5K mark, even with this discount. However, whether it is a contract for services or escrow, these questions become pointless as the business is offering no refund after 30 days. This is a key point. This tells me the business feels no obligation to hold the funds in escrow. They can spend the money as they please, though if you pursued legal recourse the story would be QUITE different. If the employees do seem to be leaving as rats from a sinking ship, and it is at this point that the business has approached you for a significant amount of money, this could spell trouble.

If you really want to buy a contract in such a seemingly unstable situation, then this is the ONLY reason I would recommend using a credit card, and ONLY if you can pay the full amount in one month. Most credit card companies allow a 60 day window for a reversal of charges. But even with that extension, you would still be extremely hard-pressed to use up 100 hours of private instruction.

All possible dark motives by the business aside, it is my opinion that no business should approach you with a contract for services coupled with such a limited refund policy. It is just bad business.

Thanks to all for bringing my sanity back. In the back of my mind I always had the thought that somethings not right at the studio. Then they announced a 20% off deal but only for the month of August and my reasoning skills went out the window.

[FatBaldGuy60]

Then they announced a 20% off deal but only for the month of August and my reasoning skills went out the window.

Reminds of the Home Depot commercial on the radio where the wife wants everything remodeled and the husband says no. Then she says "It's all 10% off!" and he wants to head to Home Depot right away. The word "savings" seems to have an effect out of proportion to the actual money saved.

Glad your sanity has returned.

FBG

[Cal]

as owner of one of this chain studios , I can assure you that the corporate office and specially the regional director does give refunds ( if any of his studios for any reason is not able to) as we have joint account with him where we keep amount of money equal to the amount of prepaid and not taken lessons. You can't open franchise without to open this account.

I think we're defining things a bit differently: what you are describing as "corporate refund" is really just a bank account of a local studio in which a corporate officer has check signing powers. But it's still the account of the local studio. If that account goes broke, it's broke, no matter who signs the check.

What I mean by "corporate refund" is that, in the event that the bank account of the local studio goes broke and there is no money for refunds, then the corporate office will provide a refund out of its OWN corporate bank account. That is not what you are describing - so really, the students who may want refunds get them only if the local studio's account is healthy.

And, I am not suggesting that you are in any kind of financial difficulty or anything like that. Your description of your sales practices sounds very fair and that you try to deal with finances in a straight-forward manner.

[Cal]

Just buying a group of lessons at this chain I pulled out my contract to see what the cancel policy is.....The contract says that the student can cancel the contract at anytime and be refunded for lessons not used less a 10% fee, 5% if the contact is over $1000. It did also state if the owner refuses a refund the national office and owner of the trade name would.... Interesting!!


At the risk of beating this horse to death, I have a couple of questions because I don't quite understand how the national office fits into this. Did someone from the national office sign your contract? If not, does the owner of the local studio really have authorization to sign a document that binds the national office into providing refunds??? Perhaps it's the same kind of arrangement that Dance Jasmin was describing: someone from the national office can sign checks on the account of the local studio; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the national office is "on the hook" to provide a refund in the event that the local studio goes broke and closes.

Again, I don't mean to suggest that your studio is in any kind of financial trouble, or that it is unable to meet its obligations, or that they are being unfair or anything of the sort. I'm just unconvinced that the national office is opening itself to liability for providing refunds out of its own account if a local studio goes broke.

I'm curious as to your studio, because the contract that I had with a franchise studio was very, very clear that the local studio was independently owned and that my contract was solely with the local studio owner, and NOT the national franchise. There were absolutely no expectations that the national/corporate office would provide a refund if the studio went broke. At least it was clear, even if people don't like the policy.

[reb]

My first lessons were at an AMI while consulting/traveling in Scottsdale AZ. I bought a bunch of lessons there, but was soon re-assigned to corp hq. I later went into the local OC AMI and asked if they could transfer the balance - and they did!

Whether this was studio-to-studio or via a national office, I don't know, but transfer it they did.

[Cal]

Reb,
My experience also is with Arthur Murray.
The transferring of lessons: two things:
1. Each franchise owner agrees to accept transferred lessons from other franchised studios (that agreement is made by the owner of the individual studio in its franchise contract with the corporate office; that's an agreement that is separate from the student's contract with the studio owner). The studio contract with the student does state that the lessons can be transferreed (with a mileage limitation). I have transferred lots lessons over the years and never had a problem.
2. If you transfer lessons, your original studio still holds the contract - the contract itself is not assigned to the "new" studio. It's just that the "new" studio agrees to accept the remainder of the lessons you made under contract with the original studio. So, if you have some kind of contractual claim it would still be made through the original studio.

The corporate office may monitor these transfers and help to facilitate them, but it's still not putting the corporate office on the hook if you want a refund and can't get it from the studio owner.

[DancingMommy]

RUN AWAY.

And I'm not yelling. If you DO decide to stay with that studio, check out whether or not they have any clauses in your contract about substituting teachers or refunding money if they up and close shop.

My experience has been that a studio that has a HUGE sale on HUGE blocks of lessons is having financial trouble and will be closing their doors shortly.

As far as putting it on your credit card? Don't. Just take my advice on that. BTDTBS [been there, done that, been screwed].

[DancingMommy]

I trust my instructor, just not the policies and management style of the studio. This is my first studio so I can't really compare, but the way they manage make me think they're Dance Natzies.

I think you just answered your own question. If you don't like their policies and management style, then don't commit your resources to them indefinitely.

[Larinda McRaven]

I actually have known independant studios to do something similar. I woman moved to my studio from the midwest and was unable to get a refund before she left. She was out probably 20 lessons or so. The previous studio owner was adamant about not giving her money back. We were able to work out a deal that the previous studio pay us the teacher rate and we taught out her lessons. So they could keep the profit, she got to take lessons she had already paid for, and we got paid to teach her. Everyone won.

[DancingMommy]

I know what you mean. The instructor that left recently at the silver level was said by management that he had left to attend grad school. When I brought it up to my instructor, she said "oh, he was fired but hopefully he can come back in the future". I didn't know anyone can be fired and still be welcomed back in the future for any job. A few weeks earlier that instructor through small talk told me that he was planning to go back to grad school. So my assumption is that he gave notice that he was leaving to attend grad school and the management fired / forced him to quit immediately so the studio wouldn't lose any of the instructor's students.

This happened to a colleague of mine. Our boss told her not to bother cutting back her hours but to just leave. He was such a [insert derogatory term here].

[DancingMommy]

And note, some studios pay their teachers what is called earned income... essentially they get paid based on what they bring in, so a teacher that sells a discounted package gets a discounted paycheck!

Ay yes... "Commission". Hated that. I hated having to shill for lessons to be able to affored a new pair of shoes to keep on teaching. Oh yeah. Happy times. ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

Sorta commision... but commision is paid out in one lump. Earned income is spread out over the lifetime of the package. So if you got 5% E.I. you got your regular 15$ + 5EI for each lesson.

So I will just say the lessons started at 80. Thge discount was 20%. And the EI was 5%.
Normally lesson cost 80... teacher got 15 + 5% = $19
Bulk discounted lesson 64... teacher gets 15 +5% = 18.20
(I hated selling discounted packages...knowing that I was dropping my hourly income by almost a dollar. And to a newbie teacher when your weekly gross is only 450, you don't want to give up a single dime.)

As a studio you take a huge hit on the income, 64 instead of 80, and you give 3% over to the credit card company. The teacher gets paid less. And you as a consumer don't save anything in the long run because you paid intrest on your credit card.

So who won out in this scenario... Studio lost. Teacher lost. You came out even. Credit card company made quite a bit.

[DancingMommy]

Ugh. You'd think the studio owners would see the [stupidity?] of offering such a huge discount when they are still going to take a hit on merchant fees. I'm glad I am employed by the Y. They aren't a dance studio, so I don't have to worry about the politics/drama that is inherent to the studio environment. I'm getting paid WAY more than I ever would as an employee. All the students pay by the month if they aren't Y members. Y members get the class for free. It's a win/win. I work one hour per week and get WAY reduced membership fees. Basically it boils down to working one hour to get the whole month for free.

[Larinda McRaven]

But what they are looking for is immediate cash flow and if that is what it takes to get 6K from someone they are willing to do it...

Some people say the package is about commitment from a student. But that is malarky. I have a particular student for the past 14 years. For the past 10 years he has paid me lesson by lesson. Commitment comes not from a contract but mutual trust. And where is the commitment from someone who "buys" the bulk but only actually pays for a few months at a time and then leaves (for any number of valid reasons)... never finishing out paying for or taking the lessons?

[DancingMommy]

Amen to that.

[Angel HI]

A woman moved to my studio from the midwest and was unable to get a refund before she left. We were able to work out a deal that the previous studio pay us the teacher rate and we taught out her lessons. So they could keep the profit, she got to take lessons she had already paid for, and we got paid to teach her. Everyone won.

Good post. Perhaps others will take this hint.

Some people say the package is about commitment from a student. But that is malarky. Commitment comes not from a contract but mutual trust.

Bless you. I have 'always' done the same. My partner is adamant that if one runs an honest and ethical business...success is inevitable.

[HoboChilli]

How helpful are dance DVDs like ones produced by Dance Vision. I'm thinking of just finishing my current set of lessons; not renew for any more privates. Practice daily via the Dance Vision DVDs. Then go to Dvida's dance camp next summer.

[etp777]

Ironically, jsut finishe dup last lesson in my pack of 50 today and regret that i won't be in town long enough to justify buying another package of privates. Will be buying a few more piecemeal though just to last until I move.

[quixotedlm]

20% discount! Wow,that's amazing. That's like getting 20 free lessons, atleast worth $1000 or $1500. That's a lot of money - go for it!

:spam:

[rjcbear]

How helpful are dance DVDs like ones produced by Dance Vision. I'm thinking of just finishing my current set of lessons; not renew for any more privates. Practice daily via the Dance Vision DVDs. Then go to Dvida's dance camp next summer.

IMO they are the best teaching tool if your studio is using that curriculum. Our Studio uses Dvida.

We use it at home before we go for lessons and after for reinforcement.

If you are going to dance camp prepare yourself to go into overload.

[Larinda McRaven]

I agree, they are not a substitute for lessons but an addition to lessons.

[waltzgirl]

They can be useful for review of what you already know. But I don't think you can learn new material from them very well, expecially if you are working on them by yourself. You don't really know a step until you've learned to do it with a partner. And you may develop bad habits without feedback about whether you are in fact doing what is being demonstrated correctly.

If you don't want to take private lessons, then I'd recommend finding a studio where you can take group classes by themselves (without having to combine them with privates in a package). That way, you'd get to practice with a variety of partners and get some feedback from the instructor.

[Angel HI]

How helpful are dance DVDs like ones produced by Dance Vision. I'm thinking of just finishing my current set of lessons; not renew for any more privates. Practice daily via the Dance Vision DVDs. Then go to Dvida's dance camp next summer.

Students must understand that when they watch a DVD, they are seeing the end result of a movement. Even when the instructor/s demonstrate/s how to do a step, they rarely discuss the kinesthetics of it. In this, DVDs are great for practicing what one has studied with a private or group teacher.

[biggestbox]

Never Never Never, 10 lessons is even a stretch, and you might find a style or teacher you like better.