History of dance - Relevant for dancers?

[Gssh]

There is a discussion on the argentine tango board that at its core (in my opinion) is about the relevance and importance of history to what we as dancers today are doing.

The two most extreme poles of this argument would be something like:

1) Current dance is a entity by itself, and defined by what it is today. Its historical development is of no importance to understanding it. Sure, its an interesting hobby, but in the end it is like learning to ride a horse to become a better race car driver.

2) Current dance is the product of all of its ancestors, and defined by where it came from. Only when you have an idea where it came from, and how it changed can understand it deeply.


The dance community i have experience with (argentine tango) pays at least lip service to the idea of 2). There are always people looking at vintage movies, digging out old records, and talking endlessley about what the "true" history of their dance is.
I know that many people don't care all that much about these things, but it is part of the idea of what a "serious dancer" is.

Other people that i have contact with (mostly salsa and swing dancers) also seem to care a lot about the origins of their dance, and what the "original" is like.

So i was quite surprised when meeting somebody who is a strong proponent of 1). This position makes perfect sense to me - what i dance is to at least 99.9% learned from contemporary teachers and watching contemporary dancers on the dancefloor.

I (perhaps irrationally) feel that studying the dance (which for me includes its history) enriches what i do, but i couldn't point to any particular feature of my dancing that i got from studying, and that i couldn't have gotten from a contemporary source.

So, how relevant is the history of your dance to you? Has it changed your dance? Did you get anything out of its past that you couldn't have gotten out of its present?

Gssh

[tj]

The immediate thought that comes to mind is how you're going to get a much deeper 'more enlightened' answer here on DF, as compared to your average dancer who probably just wants to get competent/know the steps.

[Laura]

I think it would be nice if dancesport competitors had some sense of history of at least their own sport -- that would head off the inevitable whingeing about "no nothings" on judging panels who had, in fact, rather significant titles 10-30 years ago and have spent the intervening years shaping the sport by judging and coaching. For instance, my favorite piece of 'amazing history' is informing young'uns that Marcus & Karen Hilton used to be very accomplished 10-dancers. :)

[Chris Stratton]

So, how relevant is the history of your dance to you? Has it changed your dance? Did you get anything out of its past that you couldn't have gotten out of its present?

There's a difference between the near past and the ancient past.

Historic eras that had a lot in common with how a dance is done today may have a fair amount of useful information to offer.

But study of historic eras in which more most defining characteristics were different... is more about curiosity than utility.

[Steve Pastor]

"So, how relevant is the history of your dance to you? Has it changed your dance? Did you get anything out of its past that you couldn't have gotten out of its present?"

In the immortal words of a country western song, "You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything".

People have written a lot of pretty uninformed / made up stuff about the history of West Coast Swing. I became interested in trying to ferret out the truth because I like the dance, plain and simple, and I am interested in the relationship between music and dance, and the history of things. Now, having come up with what I think is a pretty fair understanding of the history of the dance (as best I can make it out), does that make me a better dancer?
Well, when someone tells me, for instance, "This is too fast for West Coast Swing", or, "This is too slow for West Coast Swing", I can reply that if you look at this scene in this film X, you'll see that they are dancing to Y, so, of course it isn't too fast/too slow.
This kind of enables them, I think, to try something outside of their confort zone, and it puts me on a surer footing for dancing outside the box. (Wait, is that ballroom West Coast Swing?)

Exposure to different styles of (perhaps historic) tango, for instance, increases your versatility. Hey, go look at this scene from Saura's "Tango", then come back and tell me I shouldn't bounce when we dance to this. Or, you wrote that nuevo didn't start until 1998, and Hey, what about "The Tango Lesson" that came out in 1997. (OK, just a few years off there, but...)

There is of course the pure pleasure of being informed about something, which is a trait that is not univerally shared. But, yeah, I'd have to say in some ways it can make you a better dancer.

[SDsalsaguy]

For instance, my favorite piece of 'amazing history' is informing young'uns that Marcus & Karen Hilton used to be very accomplished 10-dancers. :)
More than just that Laura, as Ams they won the Blackpool Latin title!!!

[suburbaknght]

It depends what you want your dance to do. I liken it to martial arts. Someone who's interested in martial arts purely as a means of self-defense only needs to know what techniques work and what techniques don't. That person doesn't need to know that a certain throw originated from a sword strike or that it used to be performed five degrees clockwise from where it is now. Someone interested in competition might need to know a little bit about those things because he or she will be facing opponents whose backgrounds include older (or newer!) variations. Someone interested in martial arts for the philosophical or spiritual side will want to know a lot about those things because they affect his or her mindset while practicing the art. Someone who practices because they like the culture will want to know all of those things because he or she is trying to understand the environment the art came from. Someone interested in teaching will need to know everything.

Likewise, a dancer who only cares about "surviving" a dance (say, a wedding couple) only needs to know their steps and music. Someone interested in competition dancing will need to know a bit of the history of the dance in order to understand what the judges are looking for. Someone interested in social dance will need to know a little more because his or her partners will probably have different training. And so on.

[Angel HI]

2) Current dance is the product of all of its ancestors, and defined by where it came from. Only when you have an idea where it came from, and how it changed can understand it deeply.

I am a strong proponent of this. Would it be prudent to dismiss all that we learned in grade school upon entering high; or, high when entering college? Not every teacher need be like me, but when I decided to do BR, I went to the regions (not all) where the dances are from to better learn them. When I switched to AT (argentine tango for the nontango posters), I moved to BsAs. I studied music and kinesiology. A waste of time? Perhaps. An invaluable education to my teaching/coaching/performing career? Unquestionably.

I think it would be nice if dancesport competitors had some sense of history of at least their own sport --

Halleluah! IMHO, DS and BR are completely different genres. A little study of BR and its background/history would undoubtedly make for a better future for the biz in general.

Historic eras that had a lot in common with how a dance is done today may have a fair amount of useful information to offer.

Why didn't you take that stand on the AT page? You would have been much better understood.

I liken it to martial arts.

Understanding all of the examples that you posted, you know that the true martial artist knows the philosophy behind the movement...basic martial arts 101. Incidentally, I have no doubt that my art aided my dancing and vis-a-vis.

[Dave Bailey]

1) Current dance is a entity by itself, and defined by what it is today. Its historical development is of no importance to understanding it. Sure, its an interesting hobby, but in the end it is like learning to ride a horse to become a better race car driver.
That's pretty much my view.

Another analogy is with language. I don't really want to learn Mediaeval English in order to improve my use of English now. I don't need to learn Latin in order to speak with Italians.

It's historical, that's what historians get paid for, and that's what they're good at. If we amateurs try to ferret out "the one true truth", it usually turns into an argument... and that distracts us from, you know, dancing.

It's more productive (in my view) to research what's happing in a dance now, than to find out what was happening 80-100 years ago.

The dance community i have experience with (argentine tango) pays at least lip service to the idea of 2). There are always people looking at vintage movies, digging out old records, and talking endlessley about what the "true" history of their dance is.
I know that many people don't care all that much about these things, but it is part of the idea of what a "serious dancer" is.
Yeah, but I reckon 95% of that is one-upmanship and posing... :D - it's something people think they have to do, to make them "real" tangueros...

[tangotime]

What most of the posters on these types of site miss-- the average public dancer/ student has little or no interest in the bibliography, of ANY dance they have chosen .

You only have to go back on this or any other dance site, and record the number of posters who are consistent with info and enquiry-- then check the number of reg. users against current actives .

Most of us are " preaching " to the choir . And, I would add, do a fairly admirable job of furthering the education , of those less well informed .


As to the Q of the importance of roots -- that is like asking, do you care from where you hail .

I have always been an inqusitive type, and have carried that ( burden ? ) thru my life, particularly when about my profession.

How could one possibly deny , that any information you can add to the task at hand, would be detrimental ? .
I would be the first to admit, that what as social dances we perform today , in some case, bares little or no resemblance to its anticedents . Even the music has taken , in many cases again , a sharp right turn .
Yes, it is possible to obtain more authentic rhythms that have been re mastered, but I wonder how many would complain if that is what we used on a day to day basis ?.

In each and all of the class work that I teach ( even did this at the IDTA congress in my lecture ) , when starting newer students, fairly comprehensive background on musical content and some dance history is included . It sometimes prompts more questions .

One of the " strings " on my bow , is being a DJ.
Have tried , quite recently, to introduce Classic Mambo/ Salsa recordings from the forties and fifties. Only the afficianados like and or understand, the musical differences . same is true in the Ballroom world-- mention Victor Sylvester, and people say " Victor who ? " .

Most of what we listen and dance to, has gone thru many changes, more so
in the field of Latin american dance and music than the rest combined .

You think you have controversy here ?-- go to the Salsa sites .

Finally, retaining integrity of music, style and content , to a greater or lesser degree , to my mind, is paramount .

[tangotime]

If we amateurs try to ferret out "the one true truth", it usually turns into an argument...

WE ? -- as a friend of mine would ask " do you have a mouse in your pocket ? "

[Joe]

One of the " strings " on my bow , is being a DJ.
Have tried , quite recently, to introduce Classic Mambo/ Salsa recordings from the forties and fifties. Only the afficianados like and or understand, the musical differences . same is true in the Ballroom world-- mention Victor Sylvester, and people say " Victor who ? "
People want to dance to music that sounds closer to music they know. No offense to you, but Victor's music is pretty darn old and much less dynamic than most of the music currently popular for dancing.

[tangotime]

Joe , I wasnt advocating anyone should-- only trying to show the distinction between now and then . ( oddly enough, it works much better in Latin rhythms )

[Chris Stratton]

I'm going to propose that the "history" of the dance settings for the ballroom dances that is perhaps most practically useful to improving one's dancing is actually the somewhat innacurate, imagined one. While these dances inherit from real historical ones, the way they are done today belongs to a somewhat fantasy world that has never, and probably will never exist - it incorporates as much treasured lie and myth as actual historical truth. To fully get into character for these dances would require imagining yourself not in the real past, but into this imagined world.

If instead, you want to dance in the context of real history, then the dances you do will be substantially different forms - best-attempt recreations at what actually was danced historically.

[etp777]

I think it would be nice if dancesport competitors had some sense of history of at least their own sport -- that would head off the inevitable whingeing about "no nothings" on judging panels who had, in fact, rather significant titles 10-30 years ago and have spent the intervening years shaping the sport by judging and coaching. For instance, my favorite piece of 'amazing history' is informing young'uns that Marcus & Karen Hilton used to be very accomplished 10-dancers. :)

That one certainly gets me. Couple from our studio were complaining about scores they got from one judge on their showcase. I kindly pointed out he was a former world 10 dance champion, and probably knew a little bit that was worth listening to. :)

[tangotime]

.
I dont believe anyone is alluding to the " standard " ten , as qualifying for the original format . Its very apparent, to most who have been " around" I,m sure, would readily agree to the many changes that have taken place .

[Chris Stratton]

Chris-- it depends largely, on what period you place a given dance in its historic time slot-- do the fifties qualify ? the forties ? the thirties ?-- how far back in time , would you reference a dance style, before it qualifies as " historic " ?.

When I say that the modern ballroom dances belong to an imagined history, what I mean is that there is no point in time where you would find the general public wearing what we wear when competing standard, dancing as we do, as a normal social event.

Instead, when you find a time or place where tailcoats and ballgowns would be the dress code, you find the dancing is substantially different.... from my perspective, substantially less interesting as dancing.

Sure, there's an historical connection. But there's at least as much storybook fantasy in the applicable "historical" setting of modern ballroom as there is real history.

And, what is social to you, is quite often different to many others in the world of dance .
There are dances that are still being done socially and competitively that predate most of the " standard " social and competitive modern interpretations . And , yes they are Ballroom dances .

Its quite a large mis understanding, for those whose focus, is solely on the American or International style dances , to completely ignore the host of dances, that fall into a similar category .

Yes, almost every art or endeavor has it recreator or early-form following. That's fine, and it may be useful for keeping that part of the history alive. But historically accurate does not necessarily mean "better" - that my dances achieved the form I love only within the lifetime of some of those presently teaching them does not make them any less worthy than the older forms. I don't want to do the older dances, I want to do todays, but in the context of an imagined history longer and more satisfying than the one they've really had. I prefer to imagine formal balls featuring dances with the expansive physical and interpretive depth of modern competition practice.

This is not a pro-history or anti-history viewpoint, it's a practical one. When I was a musician and sometimes instrument maker, I actually did a fair amount in historic instruments circles, for two reasons: much of the interesting literature for my instruments (trumpet and then horn) was actually created for the mechanisms and sounds of their simpler historic forms, and is fundamentally different than intended (though still quite interesting) when performed on modern instruments. Second, as an instument maker, the simpler historic forms were more within my capability to fabricate... hammering a trumpet bell is one thing, machining a valve section something else entirely! Recreating historic practice practically fit my interests as a musician, but as a dancer it does not practically fit my personal interest so much as recreating an imagined history does.

[Dave Bailey]

As to the Q of the importance of roots -- that is like asking, do you care from where you hail .
Well not really. I'm not my interest, there's clearly a difference between the two. And even if the analogy were correct, I'm not massively interested in my own geneology - it's interesting, sure, but I'm not going to spend valuable dance time chasing down my family tree to the 13th generation.

How could one possibly deny , that any information you can add to the task at hand, would be detrimental ?
I'd say it depends on how focussed you get over it. Sure, some basic information is healthy, but a complete obsession over the minutiae of historical events is (usually) not so healthy in my view.

You think you have controversy here ?-- go to the Salsa sites
I thought I made that very point in the AT discussion? I've seen people get all worked-up about the history and development of salsa, and in my view such a high level of angry debate is non-productive. It turns into a holy war, people become fundamentalists, feuds start... etc.

Oh, and:
WE ? -- as a friend of mine would ask " do you have a mouse in your pocket ? "
Huh, at least I can close my quotes :p

But, I know for a fact that "professionals" differ as to the interpretation of events - historians are famous for their constant re-interpretations and revisions and discussions. In my view there is no "final truth", a lot of it is subjective. So let's get on and dance.

[Stagekat]

As I am what one may call your "average" public dancer/student... I have a great deal of interest in the history of each dance and step I learn, it helps me obtain and maintain the correct frame of mind during that dance. If I'm performing, knowing where the dance comes from absolutely helps to "get inside" the dance, for lack of a better term, and sell the performance. :D

[FatBaldGuy60]

To me, the history of whatever dance I am doing is irrelevant. I want to dance, enjoy myself, be with my wife twirling around the floor.

Taking sports as an example, those athletes that don't have a good [or any] knowledge of the history of their sport are not worse or better baseball, or football players because of that knowledge, or lack of knowledge. They live in the here and now, studying tape of last week or their last game with that team, etc.

Studying tape from an older era may be personally satisfying to them, but it does not contribute to their success on the field. They may be considered to have a "lack of respect" for the game, but again, no impact on how they play.

What I do find, on occasion, is that the history-studying types tend to try to use that knowledge to give themselves a sense of superiority. Superiority [or skill] is found on the baseball diamond, football field, or dance floor, not in a discussion about the origins of a particular style.

Caveat: Not to say that a historical knowledge will not add to your "enjoyment" of dance, as that is a personal mileage-may-vary type of thing. And, yes, I do carry a lot of history and trivia around in my head, and I am liable to use that to get a leg up on someone, just like the next guy, but then guys are like that, always looking for that edge.

Not sure if any of that made sense, now that I re-read it, but performance in an athletic activity like dancing is not linked to its history, IMHO.

FBG

[madmaximus]

History is there to teach us if we are but willing to listen.

Fer instance...
Understanding that Tango has its roots from dancers who wore boots with spurs gives me a better understanding of the character of the dance and how it's evolved into its different styles.

It gives me insight on the root and divergence of various technique, and better tools for creating distinctive characterizations in style of the dance.

IMO
For me to ignore history is to ignore its valuable lessons--and marginalize my abilities and understanding.


True in foreign affairs, and just as true in dancing.




m

[DrDoug]

Taking sports as an example, those athletes that don't have a good [or any] knowledge of the history of their sport are not worse or better baseball, or football players because of that knowledge, or lack of knowledge. They live in the here and now, studying tape of last week or their last game with that team, etc.

Studying tape from an older era may be personally satisfying to them, but it does not contribute to their success on the field.

There was an interesting play in a major league baseball game that was televised on Fox a couple weeks ago. (For those who care: runners are on first and third with less than two out, the runner on first starts to steal, the catcher throws as if to throw out the runner at second, so the runner on third starts to run home, but the catcher actually throws the ball to the pitcher, who tags the runner coming home.) The announcers made much of the fact that that play hadn't been used in a major league game in thirty or forty years.

[Zhena]

I've read both this discusssion and the preceding discussion on the AT forum. The topic is one that comes up often in the folk dance community, for obvious reasons. I don't want to write an essay here, but I've thought a lot about it. I'll try to limit myself to a few of the highlights for now.

To begin, I think the question is only partly related to history, per se. Implied, but not mentioned overtly very much in the two threads, is the question of "authenticity", or "the one true way." On the surface, and in many applications, this is a game of one-upmanship. "The way I dance is better than the way those other people dance because my version is more authentic." But, if you go deeper into each of those "authentic" versions, you should find what I like to call "internal integrity" where the movements are consistent with each other as well as compatible with the music played, the clothing worn, the venue danced in and the general ambience. Obviously we can't recreate the exact conditions surrounding an historical dance, but we can understand those conditions in order to connect them to the movements (i.e., steps and styling).

I referred above to "historical" dances, but, to be perfectly accurate, every dance is historical once the music fades away. The waltz you did with your partner last weekend will never be created again ... it is not the same as the waltz you will do with the same partner this weekend. All we can hope to have are snapshots of a particular dance at a particular time. Even if we write things down in books and say "this step belongs to International Standard Waltz and that one doesn't," International Standard Waltz is still a living entity, and will continue to change whether its practitioners try to hold onto one particular form or not. Therefore there is no such thing as a single "dance" called International Standard Waltz ... there are different interpretations within the rulebook.

So what is "authentic" International Standard Waltz, and what relationship does it have to the "one true" waltz? It is whatever its practitioners believe it to be at the moment, and it is one subset of the massive thing called waltz. It can be awkward or ugly when not done well, but the goal of dancers who wish to dance it "correctly" is to find the movements that work with each other and the conditions under which it is danced to produce a sense of aesthetic and emotional gratification ... to find its internal integrity.

Although International Standard Waltz and rotary waltz are different enough that a competent practitioner of one is not necessarily able to do the other without learning something new, they are both members of the waltz family. The two versions of waltz share some of their history, and some of their movements, but each has its own internal integrity, and movements that work well in one will not necessarily work in the other. Someone who knows both versions well will have a deeper understanding of why each is the way it is ... why the frame needs to be different in order to work with different movements, etc.

A social or "street" version of a dance does not necessarily have more or less internal integrity (or "authenticity") than one that has been developed by professional practitioners. AT is not "better" than ballroom tango, salsa is not "better" than ballroom mambo, and rotary waltz is not "better" than ballroom waltz, or vice versa. Some people have preferences for one or the other, but each can produce the desired aesthetic and emotional experience. Of course, each can also be done quite "badly" in the sense that the experience is not positive for either the dancer or any observers.

One of the questions I obsess about (e.g., see my first post in DF), is when I know I have found (some portion of) the internal integrity of each dance, as evidenced by the feeling of "flow" when I am dancing. I believe that feeling is more attainable when I know enough about the roots of the dance to know why the "right" way to do a movement works in the context of the other movements of that dance. Others may see it as a question of physics or the mechanics of the motion, but it is possible to see it as a question of the origins of the movement. Has it "always" been done this way, or has it changed with time? Whet were the conditions or pressures that caused it to change? At what point did those pressures lead to changes that drove the dance in a direction that makes it an entirely "new" dance?

I realize I could just work with the movements out of context, but for me the history of the dance can be important.

This is longer than I intended, and less coherent ... I hope it has contributed something to the discussion ...

[Zhena]

Fer instance...
Understanding that Tango has its roots from dancers who wore boots with spurs gives me a better understanding of the character of the dance and how it's evolved into its different styles.
and understanding.

m
This made me think of a folk dance ("Bunjevacko Momacko" for those who care) where one man dances with two women. The basic position is side-by-side with the man's hands outstretched to rest on the outside of each woman's waist, and the woman's inside hands on the man's nearest shoulder. The distinctive features of the dance are the man's heel clicks and stamps, and the women's spins and turns. The "right" way to do it is with the man's arms outstretched as far as possible, so the women are at their maximum possible distance from him, but people who learn the dance in a social setting tend to get a little more cuddly. The reason the cuddly version is inappropriate in original costume is that the women wear long full skirts of Italian silk that swish out when they spin, and the man wears boots with spurs. If a woman gets too close while spinning, there goes her pretty skirt ...

[madmaximus]

...to find its internal integrity...

This is one of the best posts I've read on this forum byfar.

Well said Zhena.




m

[Chris Stratton]

A social or "street" version of a dance does not necessarily have more or less internal integrity (or "authenticity") than one that has been developed by professional practitioners. AT is not "better" than ballroom tango, salsa is not "better" than ballroom mambo, and rotary waltz is not "better" than ballroom waltz, or vice versa.

I like your idea of internal integrity, but it does bring up a question:

What about dances or forms that seem to have "lost" in comparison to others?

Is there any meaning in that, such as a weaker internal legitimacy compared to others, or it is merely a change in habits with no "cause"?

For example - mambo. How often is it really danced any more? Both the latino and general street dance scenes seem to have moved on to salsa (as well as a variety of others) while the studio/competition crowd has increasingly picked the options of the international "latin". Are there internal consistencies which those dances offer, in areas where mambo was perhaps a little unsettled and artifical?

Might it have happened only as a result of changes in popular music?

Did the music itself change because the earlier sort was in some way unsettled and artficial?

Was there perhaps some external social restraint which has since been removed?

Or is the change simply something that happened without any meaning?

---

Or another: what about social ballroom in general?

Has it's relatively high ratio of required learning investment to cultural relevance caused a situation where it has "lost" to the focused efforts of competitors on one hand, vs. the greater street credibility of salsa, greater cultural nostalgia of disco hustle, greater indigineous inventiveness of WCS or Lindy, and greater cultural depth of AT?

[tangotime]

Chris-- you made the very common mistake of " dividing " Mambo and Salsa--

As any Cuban will tell you, they are one and the same in a physical sense .

History clearly delineates where, when and why the name change came about . It was primarily a musical " revolution " and a marketing ploy .Nothing more -- nothing less.
The reality-- Mambo is still taught and danced ( even competed at world level ) . There are basic differences in rhythmical expression, but the fundamentals have not changed in 60 yrs-- style-- maybe-- even thats moot .
Its origin is from Danzon ( even that is still done in some cuban towns, among other preserved forms of afro/cuban dance .

The only given-- the current style of which is presently in vogue, has strayed somewhat , from its " Parent " . But then-- dont ALL dances ?

[Joe]

So the people dancing in the clubs are really dancing mambo, not salsa?

[tangotime]

Joe -- in Miami-- yes, also, all the chain schools still have Mambo on their syllabus .
The fact is, that most Cubans in Cuba. if asked, will tell you thats what they are dancing.

Everyone is convinced that a new paradigm took place, primarily thru the efforts of Fania . What an incredible marketing idea !.

Reality-- look at the many steps you are currently using . The whole basis of the " dance ", is virtually identical to its predecessor . Sure, there was a very marked musical shift , and dance style, to a greater or lesser degree, changed some what . Does that-- in and of its self- make it a new dance ?

A fair analogy may be American style waltz and Intern. style waltz-- same dance ?. Of course, the obvious answer, style change-- but its still waltz .

Everyone is quick to hang a lable on their product , to make it more appealing
to the general public at large-- guess what ? -- it works .

Hate to use the hackneyed phrase of the King of Mambo- " Salsa ? thats what I put on my food ".
The pied piper plays--- and most everyone follows

[Chris Stratton]

I sure get the sense that there's a lot to Mambo of the 50's or the chain schools which nobody in a salsa venue would be caught dead doing...

We can say that contemporary salsa is a varient of mambo, but it's not the same thing as mambo was.

Is the older mambo still alive? Or has it largely lost out to the salsa versions?

If it has, does that say anything about the internal strength of the old mambo, or is it due only to external factors?

[tangotime]

The music is contemporary-- the variations are not !! -- virtually every step in salsa , was purloined from another dance ( mambo also ) .

And yes, there are some areas where the " style " of mambo is retained, as I said -- Miami is a classic e.g. . There is a school in the UK, where they teach ONLY mambo, sure there are more .
As far as the chain school reference goes-- in the last major city in which I lived ( and danced salsa 4 nites a week for many yrs ) was not uncommon to see B/room types present , dancing their version. I know, I had to teach and examine in chain schools, as late as 2003 . Students who are trained in that style, usually retain it .
The current trends, are incorporating the more authentic rhythms into their congresses ,and it is the wheel tuning its usual full circle . As I previously stated-- as most cuban musicians will tell those that ask-- they are one and the same . And ya know-- neither your opinion
or mine, as far as they are concerned, is worth a tinkers cuss .

The musical distinctions they make, are derived from the style of music they play as in Pachanga , Charanga or other variants . Bottom line-- cubans dance Mambo .



And Chris-- how do you know what the mambo was like in that period ?-- old movies ? -- I lived thru that period, and I can assure you , that the present day salseros have brought little new to the table .

[Al Gisnered]

People want to dance to music that sounds closer to music they know. No offense to you, but Victor's music is pretty darn old and much less dynamic than most of the music currently popular for dancing.

Too true, and too sad. For a long time opera audiences thought Verdi and Puccini and Wagner were the happening dudes and Donizetti was "pretty darn old and much less dynamic". So what? They're all in the repertory now.

Too bad the same hasn't happened with dance music. Perhaps it will - later.

[Zhena]

I like your idea of internal integrity, but it does bring up a question:

What about dances or forms that seem to have "lost" in comparison to others?

Is there any meaning in that, such as a weaker internal legitimacy compared to others, or it is merely a change in habits with no "cause"?



I think it's a matter of fashion. Music styles change, clothing styles change, we've even reached the point where food and wine styles change, and yes, dance styles change too. But part of the process is occasionally returning to previous fashions.

I'm not a historian, but I listen to stories. I've observed some changes and I've heard firsthand about others. Some of what follows may be inaccurate, and, as usual, I'm open to correction from anyone who has better information.

In the 1940's, people were learning about parts of the world they had never heard of before. Thousands of people (particularly in San Francisco, New York and Chicago) became interested in dances of other cultures. Folk dance clubs were formed where people could share their interest. My parents belonged to one of the largest of these clubs. Interest was so strong that club membership was limited, because they didn't want to turn members away from dances but physical space was limited ... you can fit only x bodies in the average gym. They also limited attendance by requiring everyone at the dances to wear some sort of folk costume, and they even had costume police (which meant most of the ladies learned to sew whether they had any aptitude or not;)).

With five children taking up a lot of time, my parents didn't dance much when I was growing up, but my father (the stronger dancer of the two) was a member of an amateur performing group. I remember going to an annual event at an enormous hall and watching from the balcony. The floor would be filled with dancers in colorful costumes moving in unison, and I was fascinated.

In my last year of high school, and particularly in the summer before college, I convinced my father that I was interested. He took me to some of the beginner classes in the city (none were available in our town). I also started taking classes at a rec center in another town. Here's where I first experienced changes in fashion. At the rec center, there were two rooms large enough for dancing, a dance studio and another room with an ordinary floor. My parents went to the folk dance class in the dance studio, and I went to a different one in the other room, because at this point (the early 1970's) the younger people were interested in different dances than the older people. My parents' group did mainly couple dances from Europe, but the other class was also learning line dances from the Balkans (in addition to some of the dances done by the older group). Another reason for me to go there was that the teacher of the younger group also taught at the university I was going to attend in the fall.

When I got to college, I hit the ground running as far as folk dance. I was painfully shy, but I loved dance so much that by my second quarter I was teaching beginning classes (the "real" teacher taught only intermediate and advanced because he was available only on Friday afternoons and evenings - he had a day job).

At this point in history, the Iron Curtain was beginning to part. Communist governments had supported certain aspects of folk culture and were willing to allow people in for research and cultural exchange. For example, where dancers of my parents' generation had learned one Racenica or Kopanica, the younger generation was learning that there were many variations. Where some of the older dances were from sources in state-sponsored performing groups, many were now from original sources and had been more carefully researched and documented. The search for "authenticity" was intensified, and had some aspects of a generational divide.

After two years at college, I found that my interest in dance and folk culture was overshadowing my interest in academic subjects. I dropped out of school and travelled with a couple of girlfriends to Yugoslavia where we explored folklore museums, looked for dancing, and shopped for authentic costumes. When I came home I got a job and a place to live and devoted my free time and energy to dancing. I met DH (someday I might tell how he got into dancing, and how we met) and we spent a few years learning, teaching, working with performing groups that formed and dissolved, while still maintaining normal lives.

There were a lot of teachers and researchers bringing new material to the dance community. They tried to convey the unique aspects of each type of dance. For example, a lot of Balkan dances have an emphasis on foot rise while the body remains essentially still. In a Croatian drmes step, there may be one weight change per measure, but within that measure the heel(s) rise and fall three times, hitting the floor hard each time but hardest on the first beat. This creates a shock wave upwards through the body, which causes the woman's coin necklace to bounce and jingle, essentially becoming a musical instrument. In a Serbian dance, though, the heel will not hit the floor at all and the ball of the foot may come off the floor for a lighter effect as the dancer hops or leaps. In contrast, a Macedonian dance may have a very slow tempo with the foot rising over a full measure, with the body stretched to full height over the raised foot at the end of the measure, and then perhaps dipping and rising again on the next measure without changing weight. As with ballroom dance where you are supposed to be able to tell whether a dance is rumba or cha cha even with no sound, it should be obvious whether a folk dancer is doing a Croatian, Serbian, Macedonian or any other dance genre just from the styling. A practical difficulty arises in that every village used to have its own version of certain dances, so there can be an almost infinite number minor differences within each family. The teachers who introduced dances to the folk dance community had to balance concerns for authenticity with the capacity of their audience to absorb (or even care about) the minor differences.

At about this time, the folk dance community was being fragmented as people began to realize the wealth of dances in each genre. This was the time of the Hungarian Tanchaz movement that I mentioned in a previous post. Although "single-style" groups had existed all along, particularly when associated with immigrant communities, there seemed to be an explosion just before we stopped dancing. DH and I even participated in a purely Scottish group for about a year. There were groups for Israeli, Scandinavian, English Country Dance, Hungarian, Scottish, Polish, Bulgarian, Croatian, Serbian, etc.

Back to my personal history ... DH and I got married (at a folk dance wedding, of course), I went back to college, we had children and ... we stopped dancing. When our children got older, we found a ballroom dance class at our local rec center. It was the classic pattern-oriented class taught by purely social dancers. We learned everything quickly, but we didn't feel we were really "dancing". I suggested finding a better place to learn. I didn't know about independent studios, but we often passed by a chain studio, so we tried it with some trepidation. We've been there for three and a half years now (and we just signed up for another block of lessons ...).

But also in the period after trying the rec center ballroom class, I saw in our local newspaper that my old folk dance teacher still had a class in the same location. Within a week we were there again. The funny thing is, the group that my parents used to dance with is also still there on the same night, and they still have the dance studio while the "young" (snerk - we're mostly in our 50's or older) people still have to use the other room. Why don't we get together and share? Because we still do slightly different repertoires, even though there is significant cross-over. (The groups are not unfriendly - we have a practice of "borrowing" people from each other when a certain dance requires an exact number people and a group is short by one or two.) They don't want to do all our dances, and we don't want to do theirs.

Anyway, the point is that people will dance what appeals to them. A dance community will exist only when a significant number of people want to do a particular type of dance. A dance will be "lost" when there is no longer a critical mass of supporters. The current forms of ballroom dance may die, but they may be brought back again in the future. The folk dances of the Balkans may die in the "folk dance" community, but they may or may not survive in their contries of origin. It depends on what the people of the future want to dance ... which can be depressing or inspiring, depending on your personal point of view.

[Gssh]

One of the questions I obsess about (e.g., see my first post in DF), is when I know I have found (some portion of) the internal integrity of each dance, as evidenced by the feeling of "flow" when I am dancing. I believe that feeling is more attainable when I know enough about the roots of the dance to know why the "right" way to do a movement works in the context of the other movements of that dance.

Thank you for this idea of "internal integrity" - it give a name to something that i have vaguely felt for a long time, but haven't quite been able to articulate. I really appreciate that DF allows peopel from so many different traditions to meet and exchange views.

For me the times i experience this is when i feel that the "logic" of the dance as a whole (music+dance+dynamic on the dancefloor) clicks together, and suddenly everything just makes sense. My first experiences with this concept were actually more like "negative flow" - i was dancing, and suddenly i started to wonder why i was using that particular aspect of my vocabulary, because it felt so alien, and uncomfortable, and it took me out of the dance. And then i started paring out pieces of my dance that i felt contributed to the alienation, and after a while i realized (much to my dismay) that i was reinventing the wheel and i was starting to dance like the old and boring guys at the milongas.

Gssh

[Dave Bailey]

I don't want to write an essay here,
Oops :)

But, if you go deeper into each of those "authentic" versions, you should find what I like to call "internal integrity" where the movements are consistent with each other as well as compatible with the music played, the clothing worn, the venue danced in and the general ambience. Obviously we can't recreate the exact conditions surrounding an historical dance, but we can understand those conditions in order to connect them to the movements (i.e., steps and styling).
Sounds like a sort of historical re-enactment to me more than a dance. And whilst a smoke-filled brothel waiting room may have some element of cool to it, I don't want to wear flares and an afro to dance salsa, for example...

I loved the rest of your post - I don't care if it didn't contribute, it was poetic and moving :notworth:

[Dave Bailey]

The music is contemporary-- the variations are not !! -- virtually every step in salsa , was purloined from another dance ( mambo also ) .
Yeah, but you could say that about any dance really. There are no new moves or steps in dance, after all.

Of course, mambo was clearly one of the fathers of salsa, but it's moved on and mutated quite a bit even in the few years I've been doing it - on1 / on2, cross-body, etc.

And I'm not sure I'd accept what Cubans say as the definitive view on what salsa "should" be - I think that a lot of people in the USA would have more claim to progressing salsa to its current state than Cubans would.

[Zhena]

Thank you for this idea of "internal integrity" - it give a name to something that i have vaguely felt for a long time, but haven't quite been able to articulate. I really appreciate that DF allows peopel from so many different traditions to meet and exchange views.

For me the times i experience this is when i feel that the "logic" of the dance as a whole (music+dance+dynamic on the dancefloor) clicks together, and suddenly everything just makes sense. My first experiences with this concept were actually more like "negative flow" - i was dancing, and suddenly i started to wonder why i was using that particular aspect of my vocabulary, because it felt so alien, and uncomfortable, and it took me out of the dance. And then i started paring out pieces of my dance that i felt contributed to the alienation, and after a while i realized (much to my dismay) that i was reinventing the wheel and i was starting to dance like the old and boring guys at the milongas.

Gssh
Boring to watch or boring to be? Are you acknowledging an internal conflict, or expressing a new appreciation for depth of experience?

I don't (yet) dance AT, but I'm intrigued by the image I have of an internally-focussed dance ... just you and your partner and the music, no audience. There's a couple at my studio that do AT (to the extent of having travelled to BA to dance), and I love watching them. They may not be dancing for me as the audience, but I'm drawn in by their subtle intensity and I really appreciate the opportunity to observe them.

[Zhena]

Oops :)


Sounds like a sort of historical re-enactment to me more than a dance. And whilst a smoke-filled brothel waiting room may have some element of cool to it, I don't want to wear flares and an afro to dance salsa, for example...

I loved the rest of your post - I don't care if it didn't contribute, it was poetic and moving :notworth:

Thanks ... blush ...

I said I didn't WANT to write an essay, not that I wouldn't ... sometimes the thoughts just kinda pour out, ya know?

And I agree about the historical re-enactment ... although knowing the background can often help in understanding the dance, it's impossible to actually re-create the conditions under which it may have reached it's "ideal" form. We can only take what we have now and try to identify and preserve the factors that actually contribute to internal integrity, leaving the unessential bits by the wayside.

[meow]

My view, for what it is worth, is that a dance tells a story. The dance continually evolves and alters somewhat over time but essentially the story and emotion it portrays remains the same. I think that is what is important, conveying the story/emotion, which is always a part of the history of the dance. Knowing certain facts about the country of origin and how and when this or that change was made can be irrelevant - it is the essence of the dance which one must absorb.

[tangotime]

Yeah, but you could say that about any dance really. There are no new moves or steps in dance, after all.

Of course, mambo was clearly one of the fathers of salsa, but it's moved on and mutated quite a bit even in the few years I've been doing it - on1 / on2, cross-body, etc.

And I'm not sure I'd accept what Cubans say as the definitive view on what salsa "should" be - I think that a lot of people in the USA would have more claim to progressing salsa to its current state than Cubans would.



Dave -- of course that is what they say-- and believe--- thats because they NEVER been told about its roots and transition. The average student being taught today in 95% of clubs/studios, are being taught by people who have little or no knowledge of the dances history-- neither do they care-- THATs ok.. Even most of my latino friends are un aware .

As I previously stated, most people who are regular posters on these sites ,
get exposed to more info. in one reading, than they probably get from one yrs lessons with a " teacher? " . I come across this constantly. ( just had one , after 18 months with highly visible teachers that is now with me ) was supposedly taught cuban" style ", and did not even have a correct hold , among several other basic essentials .

I danced, in essentially , a cuban club for longer than you have been dancing salsa( in Tampa ) with a cuban DJ.. This is empirical evidence- NOT hearsay .

Believe me, you have no conception, of how they dance Mambo/salsa .The world of the double and multi spin, is not part of their vocabulary .

The integrity of hold, and fundamentals, is there to be seen .




Heres a classic e.g. from the B/room world that went thru an identical situation musically-- Many quicksteps were written in 2/4 time and the change to 4/4 in the mid forties, brought about a complete revolution, in the interpretation of the dance ( it continues to evolve )-- Point-- we did not change the name because style and content changed--- NO marketing was ever considered .

Why does every one believe, that because style and music evolve ( a good thing ?- moot )-- marketing -- Ya know the style of cars change constantly-- its STILL a car .

Even the NY PR, admit to the publicised effort by Fania to assert itself into the market place, by the "name " change .

One thing is for sure-- they did a HELLUVA job !!

[Chris Stratton]

Believe me, you have no conception, of how they dance Mambo/salsa .The world of the double and multi spin, is not part of their vocabulary .

In which case they sort of salsa that they don't dance in Cuba would have to have been developed and promoted somewhere else.

Which is the basic justification for Dave's argument:

And I'm not sure I'd accept what Cubans say as the definitive view on what salsa "should" be - I think that a lot of people in the USA would have more claim to progressing salsa to its current state than Cubans would.

Credit for the state of a version of salsa than includes characteristics foreign to the cuban idea if mambo/salsa cannot go entirely to cuba - the other elements have to come from somewhere!

[tangotime]

You completely misunderstood my point -- I said they dont CALL it salsa ( maybe for the touristas ) .

My point to dave-- was what the general dance population, in the UKs perception of the genre is , due to lack of exposure . As to the elements-- they are unequivically , Afro CUBAN .



.Style change, does not have to imply, that the dance has to be re named. Again-- does the word marketing mean anything to you ?

You can change the name of a rose , and call it what you will-- its still a Rose ! .

I still place my " money " on Puentes comment . If he didnt know the difference ( or should I say the lack of it ) then no one does !

[Chris Stratton]

But you keep ignoring that your posts, along with Dave's, demonstrate that cuban mambo is not the same as his idea of salsa. It may or may not be the same dance, but it's certainly a different version that has followed a different path of development to arrive at the different place where it is today - regardless of what you choose to call it, it's is different dancing.

[tangotime]

Chris -- no ones disputing the style change-- its the change of the name that is in questiion.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually, the dispute appears to be about the ownership of responsability for the style change. But since it hasn't been one style change, but changes in several different directions, it seems illogical to argue that one group is responsable for that evolution. It's not a linear history, it's at least a tree, if not a web.

[tangotime]

Actually thats the easier part of the equation- the PR take full responsibity, on that count ( musically speaking )
Fania-- who took a spanish word, and applied it to their new record company promotions , are the sole individuals who saw an opportunity to re vitalise a flagging share in the market place .
I,m not denying, it was a brilliant piece of marketing-- however -- in the process, they caused a rift between the Cuban community, of taking something that they had developed culturally, and arbitarily changed its name . That rift, still exists today with many cubans .

[bordertangoman]

I agree with the argument hypothesis: I've received some vitriolic posts about whether i was dancing tango becuase it wasnt to tango music. But there is plenty of Tango music that has originated in countries other than Argentina. What people believe about the history of tango is to me as a dancer irrelevant. I also think there is a lot of mythology.
The tango has, I have read African roots, but an African-Englishman I know, who visited BsAs was conspicuos in his ethnic origin and saw very few other people of African descent. What happened to them?

Dance evolves and changes for lots of different reasons

[tangotime]

I dont think anyone was suggesting for one second, that music of ANY genre, could only be generated in its country of origin. After all one of the hottest Salsa groups, is from Japan !! ( but we dont dance kabuki to it )

[Steve Pastor]

"an African-Englishman I know, who visited BsAs was conspicuos in his ethnic origin and saw very few other people of African descent. What happened to them?"

I can't give you a reference for this, it's something I read (probably on Tango L) but what happened to them was that they were rounded up and sent to fight the Native peoples of Argentina, thus helping to ensure the demise of both groups. An inconvienient truth, that.

[Steve Pastor]

And, this reminds me of something that I occassionally think about. The improvisational nature of African music and dance, as opposed to the more rigidly defined Western music and dance is given credit for the same qualities being part of jazz and jazz associated dances such as the swing family of dances.
How is it then, I wonder, that even though most blacks disappeared from Argentina long ago, we ended up with an improvisational dance such as the Argentine Tango of today?

[tangotime]

Are you asking --do we need to be of African descent to improvise ? .

The foundation of all rhythm, as we know , is the drum . But, Im sure we would agree, that it took the many talents of many cultures, to arrive at a "new " form of music as well as dance .
The invention of new instruments thru out the ages, inspired many, to put step to tune .

To revert back to Tango for a moment, the abscence of the Bandeleone, that became inherent, in many of the older pieces, very often is now discarded .

All music and dance, is subjective , and the views of the masses, tends to drive the genres in the direction that they demand .

That does not mean to say ,that I, or others, have to agree with the departure .

[Dave Bailey]

You completely misunderstood my point -- I said they dont CALL it salsa ( maybe for the touristas ) .
Fair enough - but my point is, Cubans are really only responsible for developing the style that they dance, not the global styles of Cuba. Although, confusingly, it doesn't seem like you're describing "cuban style" :)

My point to dave-- was what the general dance population, in the UKs perception of the genre is , due to lack of exposure . As to the elements-- they are unequivically , Afro CUBAN .
The original elements, sure. And FWIW I completely agree with you that "salsa" the name was a marketing exercise. But then, so was mambo, and so are lots of other dances in some ways.

I still place my " money " on Puentes comment . If he didnt know the difference ( or should I say the lack of it ) then no one does !
And he was Puerto Rican, so he should know... :wink:

I'd rather not get into a "origins of salsa" debate - just to point out that there are clear differences of opinion about dance history, development and "ownership" even for recent dances - which was one of my original points.

So whilst some knowledge of context is useful, my feeling is that, taken too far, this turns into work for historians rather than dancers.

[tangotime]

One more piece of " historical " info for you, as passed on to me by some VERY old cubans ( from cuba )

Mambo, is the name that was ascribed to ladies, as they walked swinging their hips from side to side ( a mild form which was applied to their dancing -- hence-- cuban motion) . Also, there are several dances that have original names , that were not "made up " for marketing purposes. ( Peabody, Quickstep, Foxtrot, Paso doble Etc. )

In respect of "style " description, it is, of course, in the eye of the beholder.
I have to speak in terms of what has remained fairly constant, in the social aspect of the dance , Of course, there are many variations that will find their way into any given dance, but the essence of the dance should always be present.
That is quite within keeping, if one wishes to stay within those parameters-- most dont-- thats o.k.-- but-- there are many who do.

I realise you look at dance from a different perspective than do I-- to you - a hobby - to me -- my profession .
Although you seem to place little value on origins etc., I believe it is important in my world, to have as much info. on my subject, as you probably do in yours .

[Dave Bailey]

Although you seem to place little value on origins etc., I believe it is important in my world, to have as much info. on my subject, as you probably do in yours .
Fair enough.

Although, one last point - I didn't say that a placed little value on origins of dance (although I realise that my comments could be read that way); I think that studying the history and development of dance culture is an interesting topic, and it's great to have this historical information.

But my viewpoint is that learning such history - whilst interesting, enriching and a valid area of historical study - is not really going to help us dance any better in the here-and-now.

[tangotime]

I will take your point under consideration-- it may be moot-- I do believe, however, that ethnicity, has to be the foundational building blocks of all dance .

Anyway, thanks for a good debate ,think we,ve probably agreed to disagree on certain aspects-- as it is , in some instances , subjective .

[Joe]

"an African-Englishman I know, who visited BsAs was conspicuos in his ethnic origin and saw very few other people of African descent. What happened to them?"

I can't give you a reference for this, it's something I read (probably on Tango L) but what happened to them was that they were rounded up and sent to fight the Native peoples of Argentina, thus helping to ensure the demise of both groups. An inconvienient truth, that.
Or displaced by all the Italians and Nazi Germans...

[Angel HI]

But my viewpoint is that learning such history - whilst interesting, enriching and a valid area of historical study - is not really going to help us dance any better in the here-and-now.

It has been a nice discussion. Yet, perhaps in a last attempt to sway your thinking :roll:, or maybe just sharing another view, I believe TT's point has been that if one knows and understands the birth and creation of something that it will help do whatever it is better in the here and now, even if for no other reason than to learn from the past and not do it that way any longer. Isn't that really applicable to all of life?

[meow]

History can help us prepare for the future.

[Ampster]

History can help us prepare for the future.

...by not repeating the mistakes of the past.

[Peaches]

And when we spend too much time looking back and honoring the past, we can get caught up and stagnant and miss what's going on now and lack vision for where things can be taken in the future.

Best, perhaps, to learn about it...respect it...and then make your own way.

[Angel HI]

Best, perhaps, to learn about it...respect it...and then make your own way.

I believe that this is what most of us inspire to do. I, certainly.