Ballroom Dancing vs. The Martial Arts

[Spitfire]

Here's a topic I started on Dancescape and DanceTalk some time ago that I've decided to bring over here:

In addition to dancing does anyone here either actively train and practice in the martial arts or done so in the past? Mentor, I know you have.

I took classes in Tae Kwon Do briefly some years back and while this is different from dancing I did find one similarity in learning each of these and that is the emphasis on technique, timing and focus. Each time I took a lesson or class in one it reminded me of the other in this respect. That's my perception anyway.

[DanceMentor]

While they have similar priorites, it might be interesting to take a look at the similarites. When I think of Tae Kwon Do, the priorites are:
1. Conditioning
2. Speed
3. Technique
4. Knowledge of Patterns (Forms)
5. Balance
When I think of Ballroom Dancing, priorities would include:
1. Technique
2. Knowledge of Patterns (Routines)
3. Appearance
4. Balance
...just my initial thoughts.

[salsarhythms]

I have been practicing Aikido for 12 years now, and there is no question
in my mind that dancing and Martial Arts are extremely similar.

Think about it.

Both are simply forms of expression.

[SDsalsaguy]

Both are simply forms of expression.

Hmmm, while it makes sense to me in some respects, I've never really heard of martial arts as being a form of expression before. I can see where the choice of one style vs. another is quite similar to the choice between dance styles in so far as that all have particular focuses and differences of emphasis, etc., but all are still about bodily control, movement, and mastery. But I get the feeling that you meant something more then this... Could you please expand?

Also, it seems to me that aikido, maybe along with judo, are particularly well suited to dancing given their emphasis on balance and flow between two bodies...

[salsarhythms]

Hey SD,

I will definitely expand on my point.

First of all, you are 100% on target regarding Aikido, balance
and flow of both the "attacker" and yourself, must be in some
cases flawless.

Personally, I was attracted to Aikido because of it's fluidness
and the real power within it comes from a lot of sources that
ultimately you control.

But, to answer your question regarding a form of expression.

All Martial Arts are forms of expression. Expression of religion,
of Ki (chi) which is your life force. All of these are expressed
by the physical moves demonstrated.

You see, the physical moves and the physical performances,
which at times appear to be at the level of miraculous, are
really expressions of the deeper inner strength of man. Each
form regardless of style has so much meaning behind it, that
I am sometimes amazed how people take these for granted.

Of course the problem lies in the fact that many instructors
are saying that kata's (forms) are no longer needed. Thank
god for the fact that many still do practice them.

But basically when you look at a kata being demonstrated, every
movement means something, and every movement expresses something
that goes a lot deeper than the physical act itself. Thereby
expressing religion, life force, and other esoteric principles.

[SDsalsaguy]

Hey salsarhythms,

Thanks for the elaboration!

I guess part of why I wasn’t entirely catching your drift is that while I have some training in shotokan karate, and took a little aikido years ago, most of my training is in krav maga, which – as a military combat style (vs. a martial art) – doesn’t have some of the same elements you are referring too.

[Spitfire]

I've met quite a few people in dancing who have a background in the martial arts; one of the instructors at my studio is a black belt in the Korean arts.

Dancing attracts people with many diverse backgrounds.

[pygmalion]

I also see a similarity between dance and Tae Kwon Do. Particularly when you get to the more advanced forms, there is a real emphasis on speed versus silence. In my mind, this is very similar to the sharp and seemingly abrupt movements followed by followed by stillness (or silence) that you see in more advanced dancers.

[Spitfire]

One of the newer instructors at my studio is a black belt in Ju Jitsu along with her boy friend who usually attends the dances. They did a professional WCS routine in which she flipped him in dramatic fashion and this was no swing type of move. 8)

[Taita]

My 2 cents....

Having studied both Martial Arts and ballroom dancing, a few observations...

Both have the concept of a 'connection' with another. In one, it is a partner, in another it is an opponent.

Both have technique and patterns (kata, forms, syllabus, etc...)

Both aim for fluidity of movement and thought.

It should also be noted that the world's greatest martial artist, Bruce Lee, was also a Cha-Cha champion.

[SDsalsaguy]

Nice to "see" you agai Taita :D Any chance you can provide some more info on Bruce's cha-cha?

[pygmalion]

Hi Taita! :D

The point you make about connection is a good one. I never looked at it that way, but you're absolutely right. I can't count how many hours I've spent in class, learning to find and use the pressure points on an opponent. That is one of the connections! :idea: I just never saw it that way before.

And that is a totally cool bit of info about Bruce Lee. You learn some great stuff in these forums. :D

[Spitfire]

I didn't know that Bruce Lee was a dancer. :o

[dancersdreamland]

For a very short period of my life, I spend some time in a cardio kickboxing class and I have taken about a year of ballroom dance lessons...not really sure if that makes me qualified to jump into this discussion, but I just wanted to add my opinion:

I think dance and martial arts have several similarities and can definately draw upon one another's strengths:

Strength - both mental and physical
Endurance
Concentration
Energy behind/with the movement
Respect for the artform and it's instructors
Respect for competitors/oponent
Grace
Stamina
Precision/Accuracy
Speed
An awareness of oneself and his/her surronding and partner/oponent
Practice
Skill


I also think both dance and martial arts are well choreographed. It is my understanding that in martial arts there are certain moves used for "blocking" or "attacking" just like there are certain combinations paired together for dancing.

I think dancers can benefit from martial arts and vice versa.

[Taita]

Hi Guys!

It's certainly glad to know I am welcome. :D To add some more insight before I drop back into lurk mode....

Bruce Lee started dancing when he was about 14 years old. His favorite dance was Cha-Cha. As you can imagine, he became very good at it. I understand that at one point, he carried a card listing over 100 cha-cha patterns! :shock: Eventually, he became the Hong Kong cha-cha champion before coming to America. I also understand that one of his first jobs in the US was as a..... dance instructor! In those days, he would also attend social dances on occassion. It was at these events that he would sometimes give an impromptu kung-fu demonstration during intermissions. People then started to ask him about his kung-fu. The rest, is history.....

8)

back to lurk mode....

[pygmalion]

Hi Guys!

It's certainly glad to know I am welcome. :D To add some more insight before I drop back into lurk mode....

You certainly are welcome. One thing I've noticed about you, Taita, is that you may not post all that often, but when you do, you always have some unique insight, or experience, or knowledge to share. I, for one, am really glad you're here. :D :D


Jenn

[SDsalsaguy]

Thanks for the follow up Taita! :D ...great info.

Anyone else curious though, about why the same guy who went on to do what he did with kung fu needed a card for his cha cha?

[Vince A]

Anyone else curious though, about why the same guy who went on to do what he did with kung fu needed a card for his cha cha?
Exactly the very first thought that popped into my head. Did he look at "the card" just before he went out to dance, or did he look while dancing? Hmmmmmm. Maybe he could not remember his patterns? Now we know why he gave up dancing? But isn't there a lot of memory work in Kung Fu?

I've done both TKD and Ju Jitsu . . way back in college and while stationed overseas. But 'boxing' also can be included in this! Imagine the footwork training involved in boxing and dancing. No wonder I can syncopate so well!

I no longer do any of the three, but have settled into cardio kickboxing and looking into Tai Chi.

[SwinginBoo]

That was really interesting Taita :D

What is up with that card thing though :?: :tongue:

[pygmalion]

Thanks for the follow up Taita! :D ...great info.

Anyone else curious though, about why the same guy who went on to do what he did with kung fu needed a card for his cha cha?

I'll bet he carried around a list of stuff to practice. That's what I do, (not that I'm in Bruce Lee's league in any way :lol: ) although mine's in a notebook, not on index cards. Then, when I'm practicing, I just go down the list as reminders of what moves I need to work. Maybe that's it? :? *shrug*

[Taita]

"It's like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory" - Bruce Lee

Wow! :shock: I'm surprised at the interest in his cha-cha card. I begin this post with a quote from one of his movies. At the time he carried it, he was still a young man, years away from becoming the legend that he became. From what I understand, he would refer to the card when putting together his choreography. In life, Bruce Lee kept extensive notebooks filled with information on everything that interested him. It doesn't surprise me that he kept a record of all his cha-cha moves. However, from what I know of him, I think it would be fair to say, had he chosen to continue dancing, he would have tossed the card and developed a simpler, more effective style as he did with his martial arts. To me, the card is a symptom of one of the things that made him great: An eager mind dedicated enough to write down what he has learned. To focus on the card would be like focusing on the finger and missing out on the real lesson. I hope you enjoyed this!

back to lurking... 8)

[SDsalsaguy]

back to lurking... 8)
No, no, NO! No more lurking for you! Can't you see that you're posts are much to interesting for us to put up with having you as nothing more then a lurker?

As far as the card thing, I think part of what caught our interest is that your initial post said that he carried around a card with patterns written on it. Based on what little I know of him it struck me as odd that he would need such an aid. As you point out, however, it was in his earlier years...

(Jenn, the description says a card with over 100 patterns...which is why it didn't seem to me that it could just be reminders or pointers about what he was working on, etc.)

[Taita]

You certainly are welcome. One thing I've noticed about you, Taita, is that you may not post all that often, but when you do, you always have some unique insight, or experience, or knowledge to share. I, for one, am really glad you're here. :D :D



No, no, NO! No more lurking for you! Can't you see that you're posts are much to interesting for us to put up with having you as nothing more then a lurker?


Aww... you guys don't have to flatter me. :oops: It's always great to know you are appreciated. You guys are the best, thanks :notworth:

I will leave you with a view of a young Bruce Lee that very few people knew about....

The ‘empty-mindedness’ applies to all activities…such as dancing. If the dancer has any idea at all of displaying his art well, he ceases to be a good dancer for his mind stops with every motion." - Bruce Lee

http://www.worldisround.com/photos/0/137/297.jpg

and another....

http://www.worldisround.com/photos/0/137/300.jpg

back to lurking... :wink:

[pygmalion]

Adorable photos! :D Thanks.

[SDsalsaguy]

Fantastic! And a great quote too!

[will35]

Hey, Taita, what about the Samurai who lost their jobs in 19th cent. and became priests. They were "priests of nothingness", right? They let the music flow through them like empty vessels. I'd love to do that with my dance. It would take a lot of purification, though. That's what I'll do. I'll turn my body into a shakuhachi.

[Taita]

Hey, Taita, what about the Samurai who lost their jobs in 19th cent. and became priests. They were "priests of nothingness", right? They let the music flow through them like empty vessels. I'd love to do that with my dance. It would take a lot of purification, though. That's what I'll do. I'll turn my body into a shakuhachi.

LOL, Will, you'd look pretty silly trying to turn yourself into a bamboo pipe :lol: No purification is needed, to be yourself in the present moment.

[will35]

Well, I try to forget myself every time I dance. I guess I don't really try, I just get ready to forget. Maybe I am Samurai, and don't know it. Or maybe I am confusing several different things.

[will35]

Did you know that Taita means "father" in Guarani? Taita guasu is grandfather.

[Taita]

LOL, no Will, I did not know 'Taita' had a guarani meaning. Thanks for the info.

P.S. Being in the present is not about 'forgetting' as it is about 'remembering'.

[will35]

Whew! I'm in luck. I can remember things whether they happened to me or not. It is forgetting that is hard.
That sounded like something Mark Twain said once.

[Vince A]

Nah . . . it was Bill Clinton!

[Swing Kitten]

Taita, Where in New England are you from?? I'm currently in CT. What type of dancing do you do? You may have posted it but I haven't seen it yet! ;)

[will35]

I can't help still thinking about this topic. I saw an interview of Bruce Lee a long time ago on TV. It was in black and white, so it was a long time ago. If memory serves me, he said, "The martial arts is a sincere expression of oneself." He gave that as his definition of the martial arts because that was the question they gave him. I have a terrible habit of trying to put things in little categories. So, I'll be the first to say it here. Dance IS a martial art, according to the master's definition.

[Swing Kitten]

"The martial arts is a sincere expression of oneself."

this is true of the arts in general... with or without the martial.

[will35]

That's right. A dance is not martial, is it? What was I thinking?

[SDsalsaguy]

That's right. A dance is not martial, is it? What was I thinking?
Let's ammend that Will...a dance shouldn't be martial...unfortuantely some floor-hog types don't seem to have grasped this distinction yet! :wink:

[Black Sheep]

Spitfire,
Of course any type of physical training like the Martial Arts helps your dancing, but having had almost two years of one Korean style of karate, and understanding the Gung Foo from my favorite TV serial for years, I can see it depends which Martial Art style enhances the dance. Gung Foo, definitely! Karate? I doubt because of the sharp electric striking moves in Karate does not condition the brain to develop a graceful flowing motion needed for dance.
I was a Gymnast and an acrobat before I first trained as a dancer. Once I got the gist of dancing which took me about six months to find the lost beat, my gymnastic training began to kick in and I attribute my progress from the six month confusion to winning the Valentino Tango Trophy in less than two years to my gymnastic background, beating two of my former Teacher Training Instructors, Ted Zane & Mary Tweedy from Veloz & Yolanda, and from Bill Williams Studio, Lance Stevens and his wife in 1951 at the Hollywood Palladium. I could never have accomplished that type of progress without my gymnastic background; talk about timing and balance and coordination... My first attempt at a front Summersault ended with me on the point of my head and the only black out of my life. I think!
Gung Foo? Definitely a great back ground for dancing, but I'm glad I came into dancing from gymnastics.
Black Sheep, still looking for the lost beat!

[Swing Kitten]

That's really neat Joe!

I think my experience with Tai Chi has made a great impact on me. I can't say that it had improved my dancing because I learned Tai Chi before I learned lindy. But I CAN say it made a huge difference on my puppetry. I realized this while in rehearsal for a full stage puppet production of Medea (a special version) and there were several moments when Medea would be upstage while the chorus did its thing. She needed to stay active while not demanding focus (puppets die when they stand too still). So to keep her 'breathing' I would very slowly and smoothly move into different abstract/contemplative positions with about a full minute of transition between each. On about the forth night of doing this it suddenly struck me, "Woah!! I'm doing Tai Chi." Even my breathing was the same and I didn't relize it!!

[suek]

interesting....

I started a reply about tai chi and then somehow deleted it. Came back from dancing to try it again and now I find there's another dancer who has tai chi experience. Let me know if you can relate, swingkitten...

Here's what I'm finding, after nearly 30 years tai chi and push hands and 3ish years of dancing, focusing on lindy hop:

The big epiphany for me is about connection. I learned this in push hands, the 2person "dance" that's the tai chi version of combat -- and it's a whole different definition of combat, since tai chi's all about investment in loss; or as my teacher's teacher used to say, the one who never gets into a fight wins. The adherence I learned in push hands -- a four-ounce whole-hand connection that allows me to follow (!) my partner's movements -- is the foundation of my follow in lindy. I'm connected, from my core to my leader's through the connection point of my hand on the lead's body. The connection is lively, and driven by a good frame, and it's light.

I am so lucky to have all this tai chi training. It's helping me so much in my passionate study of swing, and in my not-so-modest goal of becoming the world's best follow.

blessings,

Sue

[Swing Kitten]

I don't have much experience with push hands... We did it one day and I've only taken one class :( so I never did much partnering doing Tia Chi.

Puppetry helped me emensly with connection. My favorite type of puppetry is a form from Japan called, Bunraku. Long story short (reminding myself that thi is not a puppetry forum) often this form requires two to three puppeteer opporating a single puppet. All of the puppeteers remain in physical conntact with each other in some way and MUST have an acute connection with the others to manipulate the puppet correctly. They must move in synchronization across the stage without tripping over each other (easier said than done) and even working together to complete a single gesture since a different person controls each hand. The puppet only has one brain and one conscienceness and should appear so...

Are you sure this isn't a forum about puppetry???

[suek]

They must move in synchronization across the stage without tripping over each other (easier said than done) and even working together to complete a single gesture[snip]...only has one brain and one conscienceness and should appear so... Are you sure this isn't a forum about puppetry???


Sounds like a forum about dancing to me...how eloquently you put it. "One consciousness," "working togther to complete a single gesture."

That's the thing that keeps me coming back to the dance floor...those fleeting moments of something that transcends lead/follow and becomes (oh I don't know) higher-powered, driven by the music.

Too touchy feely? Just came up in one of DNice's lindy classes last week. We were practicing lead/follow exercises and passing the lead back and forth. And it got to the point where neither my partner nor I knew who was leading, yet there was still movement. Nice flowing movement.

There is a spiritual aspect to this and I'm lucky to experience it sometimes.

Blessings,

Sue

[Sarah]

Hi all. I'm new here, but you've hit upon two of my favoritest topics and I couldn't resist chiming in. :D

I was introduced to salsa and merengue by a couple of people from my Aikido dojo. The skill sets involved are extremly complimentary as almost everything you'd want in a good lead/follow connection - things like just the right amount of tension and elasticity, using that connection to affect your partner's balance in order to get them to move how you want, the realisation that less muscular force is almost always more effective, everyone concerned being responsible for maintaining their own balance, being able to cope with unexpected wierdness and being able to make things up on the fly because they 'feel' right- all this can be found in fundamental aikido principles and practice.

Breakfalling practice also made me almost completely fearless when it comes to dips and drops. Falling on the floor - I've already done it a hundred times today - what's one more matter?

Another thing that is probably common to most martial arts as well as to dancing is the learned skill of being able to watch someone doing a movement and then being able to copy it.

Cheers
Sarah

[SDsalsaguy]

Hi Sarah, glad to have you with us! :D

Also, thanks for the input... I actually went back through this thread and, in the fourth post, I noted that:

it seems to me that aikido, maybe along with judo, are particularly well suited to dancing given their emphasis on balance and flow between two bodies...
I've only had limmited expereince with aikido, however, so it's great to have a more informed perspective regarding these dynamics.

[Black Sheep]

Suek,
The best way to become the 'best follow', is to learn to lead.
Black Sheep

[suek]

Joe, just in the last 2-3 months, I've found myself learning to lead (in beginning lindy classes where there aren't enough leads). You're right; it is very useful to see from the other side. Main thing I've noticed:
• Many follows don't let the lead lead! Something I'm getting feedback on (as a follow) all the time: don't anticipate; come straight forward; let the lead turn you. When I lead I find myself begging the follow to please let me lead her.

There's probably more to learn here; for now I'm still focusing mostly on my following practice because I still have so far to go and leading only in beginning lindy and beginning charleston. A good combination for the moment.

Blessings,

Sue

[pygmalion]

suek,

I know this is off topic, but did you change your signature line from Sacramento's oldest to Sacramento's second-oldest? What gives? :D

Sorry, guys and ladies. Back to martial arts. :D

[Swing Kitten]

Welcom Sarah!
I don't know much about aikido... what are some of it's defining characteristics? How long have you been involved and what got you interested?

It's nice to have you along :D

--Swing Kitten

[pygmalion]

Hi all. I'm new here, but you've hit upon two of my favoritest topics and I couldn't resist chiming in. :D


Welcome, Sarah! It's really nice to have you with us. :D

[Swing Kitten]

Thanks for your comments suek... puppetry tends to be my frame of reference toward most things and I'm glad it may be clearly applicable to others... not that that would really change the way I do things... but it's still very nice.

That lead follow exercise sounds like a good one... very similar exercises exist for theatre... which is only natural.

There's nothing quite like that feeling is there?

[suek]

off-topic about my signature...

I found out one guy is a bit older than I am! So I changed my signature...with my 53rd bday around the corner, too.

(shudder of resignation)...

:-)

blessings,

sue

[SDsalsaguy]

off-topic about my signature...

I found out one guy is a bit older than I am! So I changed my signature...
Why let a little think like reality intrude? :lol:

[Black Sheep]

Suek,
Back on Topic: 'Following & Leading'
The only term we used instead of the word 'Frame' in the 1950's was 'Body Leads' a much more descriptive and appropriate term.
Next time you lead a partner, do the following 'Magic Six Step, Body Leads':
Prerequisite: Constant Resisistance (CR) (see post above!)
1) Blind fold your partner;
2) have her place the palms of her hands on your shoulders with a slight 6 oz pressure;
3) As you change weight from one foot to the other, have her focus on the natural tilting of the shoulders over the foot supporting your body weight. Be subtle, she'll get the feel easy enough;
4) Turn, rotate your shoulders slowly, as you stand in place, from right to left and ask her to keep her shoulders parallel to yours;
5) Shift weight on one foot and step back with other free foot, she should feel the movement away from her and step into you with the proper free foot.
6) Turn music on and have your blindfolded partner follow you in simple directional moves, i.e. side steps, rock steps, walking forward and backward, having her depending only on the pressure of her hands on you shoulders. A little support at first will help by you guiding and supporting her with both your hands on her waist line until she develops the kinetic sense for the moves which is only in a matter of a couple of minutes.

Check my threads, 'Teaching Techniques' and the 'Magic Pill' for additional pointers, but do me a favor, let's call these 'Magic Six Step Body Leads', and not the dehumanized, esoteric word 'Frame'.

Testing this Method:
Keep blind fold on partner and lead her in several slow simple Lindy steps. Her focus should be on your lead hand, but your body moves, if you are dancing on balance, will be transmitted through your flexing, rotating, CR arm and wrist into you partner easy enough.

Fifty years ago I used to do complete Rumba and Lindy improve dances, leading one of my students 'blindfolded' as a party entertainment. And Carmen Haro was in 1953 the same age I am now in 2003; 80 years old.
Black Sheep, 'A Noble Youth Sweetens Old Age', Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[pygmalion]

Hey Joe!

This is a great technique, and works for a whole lot more than just Lindy. My coach uses this one for lots of dances, smooth and rhythm, and IT WORKS! :D

[Sarah]

Welcom Sarah!
I don't know much about aikido... what are some of it's defining characteristics? How long have you been involved and what got you interested?

It's nice to have you along :D

--Swing Kitten

Hi Swing Kitten

Thanks for the welcome :)
I've been practicing Aikido for about 5.5 years now - Got into it through a now-ex boyfriend.

I don't know how much you know about martial arts in general, so here goes. Aikido is a relatively young martial art which was developed in the first half of last century. It draws on various older styles of Ju Jitsu as well as Japanese sword and spear techniques.
Aikido looks more like Judo than Karate, in that it focusses on joint locks, pins and throws rather than punches and kicks. It differs from Judo in that most styles of Aikido are non-competitive which means that more potentially damaging techniques are practiced more regularly. For instance small joint locks (finger, wrist and I think elbow) are disallowed in Judo competition, so they tend not to be practiced as much in Judo classes.

There are several aspects of aikido which make it excellent cross training for various types of partner-dancing. For instance it is ideal to not block an incoming punch, but to get out of the way of it, make contact with the arm and maintain that connection untill a minute redirection will take your partner off balance.[1] It takes longer to type than to do, but there you have have following and leading practice all in one.

Following well is also necessary when someone has you in one of those small joint locks I mentioned earlier. You have to be very much "in the moment" prepared to move with your whole body to relieve the pressure, while absolutely not anticipating. It can be very painful if you anticipate wrong.:shock: :? Better than that though, following well can set you up for an appropriate counter-technique.:twisted:

Aikido done well looks fake because of this leading and following, and because it can be absolutely effortless.

Cheers
Sarah

[1]I said ideal, not easy.:D I'm still working on it.[/list]

[pygmalion]

Hey Sarah!


That is a very good description, and illustrates to me very well how dance and martial arts are related. Thanks. :D



Jenn

[Swing Kitten]

Thanks Sarah... that is interesting!! So how did you get into dance? :D

[Gator]

Hey Sarah!
That is a very good description, and illustrates to me very well how dance and martial arts are related. Thanks. :D
Jenn
Considering the number of similar or the same excercises I am doing for both, must be related ;)

[Sarah]

Thanks Sarah... that is interesting!! So how did you get into dance? :D

Hi Kitten

I got into dance through a couple of people from my aikido dojo actually. I dance at a university club which concentrates mainly on social salsa, merengue and modern jive[1]. We do branch out occasionally by bringing in outside instructors to teach short courses in various other dances - we've just finished a few weeks of lindy hop, before that we had eight weeks of chacha. We've also had single lessons in Brasilian samba and various other things where, while you can't learn much in a single lesson, these can encourage people to go other studios and learn something different or if there's enough interest to bring the instructors back for a whole course.
We also have a belly dance group, which is really cool.

I've been dancing for about 3 years now, and (I think) I can salsa very well, chacha adequately, swing extremely badly with a forgiving partner and a following wind, and have the very beginnings of a waltz (although I can't converse while doing it - too much processing power still devoted to making sure one and only one foot change happens per beat)
I also do the belly dance thing - bits of that are finding their way back into my salsa which is kind of fun. A salsa beat really lends itself to a 3/4 shimmy - or is that just me ;)

Cheers
Sarah

[1]Think pseudo-ceroc without the brand-name. Really easy for beginners to get into, then we infect them with the salsa bug :twisted: .

[Sarah]

Considering the number of similar or the same excercises I am doing for both, must be related ;)

Ohh - details please?

Cheers
Sarah

[Taita]

Taita, Where in New England are you from?? I'm currently in CT. What type of dancing do you do? You may have posted it but I haven't seen it yet! ;)

Hi Swing Kitten,
Sorry for the belated reply. I am based in CT. Currently, I am an International Latin competitor. I've also been an International Standard Competitor and have been known to be able to practice 'self defense' in just about any type of social dance occassion. :wink:

[DanceMentor]

"The consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical action."
- Bruce Lee

...And dancing helps you to lose yourself and find yourslef all at once!

[Swing Kitten]

I am based in CT. Currently, I am an International Latin competitor. I've also been an International Standard Competitor and have been known to be able to practice 'self defense' in just about any type of social dance occassion. :wink:

YAY!! we're neighbors!! The states are so much smaller out here! If y9ou ever want to go swing dancing let me know!! :wink: :D

[d nice]

Suek,
The best way to become the 'best follow', is to learn to lead.
Black Sheep

:shock: :lol: :roll: :uplaugh:

[SDsalsaguy]

Suek,
The best way to become the 'best follow', is to learn to lead.
Black Sheep

:shock: :lol: :roll: :uplaugh:
Tell me about it! :roll:

[d nice]

Suek,
Back on Topic: 'Following & Leading'
The only term we used instead of the word 'Frame' in the 1950's was 'Body Leads' a much more descriptive and appropriate term.
Next time you lead a partner, do the following 'Magic Six Step, Body Leads':

This is an awesome exercise for getting followers to become sensitive to their leads, which is one of the keys to good lead follow technique.

Check my threads, 'Teaching Techniques' and the 'Magic Pill' for additional pointers, but do me a favor, let's call these 'Magic Six Step Body Leads', and not the dehumanized, esoteric word 'Frame'.

Point of order though... Frame is not body lead. They are completely different concepts, though necessarily inter-related. The word frame is not dehumanizing or esoteric. It is the teachers responsibility that all dance terms used are properly defined for their student.

[d nice]

One of the best followers I've met in Lindy Hop can barely lead a swing out. Yet she blows nearly every other follower out fo the water, even on her worst days.

[Black Sheep]

Certainly, Ginger Rogers never needed to learn to lead; she was a natural. And I'm sure Fred did learn to follow because he did much of his own choreography.
But if you are not the Ginger caliber, learning to lead does give you a better perspective of the problems of following, and when you have this frame of reference, following becomes more of a logical concept. Just common sense!
Using the 'Exceptions' to a case in point, to contradict a teaching technique, a technique that dance teachers themselves always use to improve their own 'Lead/follow' techniques, is not nice!
Did you ever meet a qualified dance teacher who did NOT know how to both lead and follow well? Doesn't that give you a clue?
I have a rule when I teach a student, 'Until you get a sound basic foundation of a given technique, avoid listening to others who would discourage you'. Too many cooks can turn a nice meal into a not nice meal.
Black Sheep 'Creativity Always Threatens the Establishment'. Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[DanceMentor]

I'll agree Joe here, at least, in part.
I believe I have become a better a leader as a result of learning to follow. By understanding the signals necessary to be a good follower, I can better provide the lead.

....somehow we're not talking about martial arts.

So here goes:
Do you think learning how to take an attacker off balance would help in keeping a partner in balance?

[Sarah]

I'll agree Joe here, at least, in part.
I believe I have become a better a leader as a result of learning to follow. By understanding the signals necessary to be a good follower, I can better provide the lead.

Yep. You don't even necessarily have to be a paticularly good follower. Actually, I'll quite often lead newbie guys (Actual role reversal, not backlead, although I've learned not to say `here, you be the girl for a bit'. Guys dont seem to go for that for some reason.:?) and say - `this is what its 'sposed to feel like - now you try.' It works quite well sometimes, but going from follow mode into lead mode does graunch the mental gearbox a bit.


....somehow we're not talking about martial arts.

So here goes:
Do you think learning how to take an attacker off balance would help in keeping a partner in balance?


Absolutely. 100%. Well sort of. Um wait a minute and I'll expand on that. Often we'll play with the very edge of a persons balance, almost allowing them to take it back, in order to move them somewhere else - or just for fun.
So you find yourself very aware of what your partner is doiong balance wise and how you can change it. (or not change it as the case may be....)
It also makes you very steady and sure of yourself when suddenly someone is leaning on you for support.

Cheers
Sarah <knowledge can be used for good or evil :twisted: >

[Black Sheep]

DanceMentor,
Martial Arts and Gymnastics are not that far apart in body training. Both fields develop a stronger kinetic sense and teach you the body mechanics that improve both your ability to control your own center of balance in any contorted moves.
But the most important benefit I think I have derived from years of acrobatics was the ability to analyze and correct a movement whether it be in tennis or in dancing. And if I were proficient enough in Martial Arts, that same analytical ability would have been developed through my knowledge of M. A..
There is one advantage that acrobatics has over MA as I see it where dancing is concerned:
With the exception of tai chee and Gung Foo and maybe Judo, and that advantage is in the aesthetics, the styling, the smooth graceful flow that gives dancers the look of balance and flowing gracefulness that is mesmeric. I don't know that any expert in any of these arts including acrobatics ALONE can develop a sense of classical statuesque styling. I see too many good dancers ala the Arthur Murray dancers on these TV shows that throw in all the SAME Ballet poses, that are plastic with frozen smiles and are, to me, nauseating to look at.
If some teacher could come up with an INDIVIDUALIZED course in 'Styling', i.e. the natural use of the arms, legs, body and the head in dancing that is APPROPRIATELY appealing for each individual dancer, I think they would be overwhelmed with students. I have my theory on how this could be done, and maybe I'll have an opportunity some day to illustrate how before my batteries run too low.
Great thread!
Black Sheep 'Dancing is Any Body Movements Put to Music', Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

[will35]

I guess I probably brought up the part about men learning to follow in this thread or another, it's hard to remember. But it works whether you like it or not. It increases sensitivity in either partner. Remember the old Indian saying, "Walk a mile in my shoes." I have seen a few leaders who just don't know how a woman needs to hear what the leader is saying in the dance. That does not mean a leader has to learn to be a very good follower, but he should spend at least some time with it to get the feel of it. The follower does not have to learn to lead, I think. The leader is the person responsible for most of the dance. He points the way. He has to learn to do it in a way that is convincing and pleasing to the follower. The follower has different problems with learning to dance. Sometimes she just needs to learn to let go. It might or might not help her to learn to lead. It might get the urge to backlead out of her system, and it might not.

"I don't know that any expert in any of these arts including acrobatics ALONE can develop a sense of classical statuesque styling. I see too many good dancers ala the Arthur Murray dancers on these TV shows that throw in all the SAME Ballet poses, that are plastic with frozen smiles and are, to me, nauseating to look at.
If some teacher could come up with an INDIVIDUALIZED course in 'Styling', i.e. the natural use of the arms, legs, body and the head in dancing that is APPROPRIATELY appealing for each individual dancer, I think they would be overwhelmed with students. I have my theory on how this could be done, and maybe I'll have an opportunity some day to illustrate how before my batteries run too low."
-Black Sheep

The natural use of the body comes from doing it for years and years, and feeling how painful it is to do it in an unnatural way. Everything becomes natural with practice, but practice in dance, not Jujitsu. If dancers want to dance better, they should practice dancing. If they also like to practice martial arts, then they should do that, too. But I can't see how it could be sold as help for dance when the time could be spent better dancing.

[d nice]

Did you ever meet a qualified dance teacher who did NOT know how to both lead and follow well? Doesn't that give you a clue?

Well actually most of the top followers in Lindy Hop instructors or otherwise are at best mediocre leads... most of them can't lead anything beyond a swing out. Their insight comes from simply being aware of themselves.

Now certainly learning to lead can help some dancers improve. My issue is in you saying "The best way to become the 'best follow', is to learn to lead." (emphasis mine)

[d nice]

With the exception of tai chee and Gung Foo and maybe Judo, and that advantage is in the aesthetics, the styling, the smooth graceful flow that gives dancers the look of balance and flowing gracefulness that is mesmeric.

I think any of the arts are more than capable of producing this, assuming that ones instructor is skilled, and you have fully embraced their teachings.

I don't know that any expert in any of these arts including acrobatics ALONE can develop a sense of classical statuesque styling. I see too many good dancers ala the Arthur Murray dancers on these TV shows that throw in all the SAME Ballet poses, that are plastic with frozen smiles and are, to me, nauseating to look at.

Retch. I'm SO with you on this. My biggest complaint about Ballroom for so long was that SO many of the dancers seemed to be doing the exact same dance stylistically, all latin looked the same, all smooth looked the same, all swing looked the same, regardless of the difference in step/rhythm/patterns. I can't even dance lindy hop to two versions of teh same song with the same partner, played back to back, the arrangement is different, the improvisations are different, so my styling is different.

If some teacher could come up with an INDIVIDUALIZED course in 'Styling', i.e. the natural use of the arms, legs, body and the head in dancing that is APPROPRIATELY appealing for each individual dancer, I think they would be overwhelmed with students.

I have and I am. It is one of my two most sought after master classes. Luckily for the community I am not the only one.

Black Sheep 'Dancing is Any Body Movements Put to Music', Joe Lanza 2003 a.d.

In the African diaspora there is no difference between dancing and music and your entire life is spent moving in rhythm.

[d nice]

The grappling styles to me are more immediately applicable than the striking styles, but even a hard, striking dominated form like Tang Soo DO or Shotokan or the giant of the hard styles Kyokushinkai all grant you the ability to sense motion through subtle visual and tactile clues, incorporate their opponents body movement into their own, "blending" the two.

The benefit the grappling arts have is in the redirection of force through manipulation of momentum and balance.

Then there is the added benefit of using hgih amplitude throws with a little adjustment into wicked air steps.

[danceguy]

Hi,

I've been thinking about the parallels between dance and MA for a while now, and without a doubt I'd agree that they are complementary art forms. However, and I do hope not to offend anyone here, I have a hard time calling martial arts "dance" since I've studied under some really traditional teachers where the martial side of the arts were strongly emphasized.

Whenever people find out I study MA, most tend to ask if I study wushu. I try not to get offended, since in my book, wushu is in a whole other category. It does teach some self-defence, but the modus operandi of the art is for show, display, and competition.

Studying some of the more rare and unknown martial arts will show a student just how deep these systems go. Far beyond all the movements, the forms, there is so much that modern martial arts have lost from their ancient ancestors. Its a rare find these days to meet an instructor who knows the old ways...where the arts were "martial arts" - the arts of war. No sparring, no belts, no kata, no spinning twirly kicks...simply a method of survival that was designed to do one thing in an application - cause death. And please let me clarify, I am not an advocate of violence and I do strive for peace...to the point that in most situations I would allow someone to hit me without fighting back if it could end the encounter with a peaceful resolution. The true secret of any martial art is never to use it...but if it must be used, then it must be as it was made to be. When the arts have become watered down (sadly, as most tend to be today), they become something else...empty movements.

Where I see the similiarity to dancing is the balance, posture and movement of the body. But getting to the true essence of the martial arts...there are no forms, no preconceived ideas...no set rules (save moral ones). So on the other hand, they are vastly different. For myself, being a Taoist, I avoid even letting people in dance class see how good my balance is. In some martial arts classes, I lose my balance on purpose. This may sound weird to some...but it should make sense to others.

And dancing...well aren't we out there to strut our stuff and look good? A very tough call for a guy like me...but again, to understand why we do things one way, we must address the other.

To sum it up, I do feel dancing and MA have some common ground...but as the world of martial arts is so vast...there is a huge gap in the middle. For many years the Asian systems (which I dearly love) have dominated the martial art world...but in the next few decades...I believe it will be the Russians who will give the world of martial arts back their true nature.

As life goes on, all things come full circle.

Warm wishes to all,

Scorpionguy

[d nice]

Hi,

I've been thinking about the parallels between dance and MA for a while now, and without a doubt I'd agree that they are complementary art forms. However, and I do hope not to offend anyone here, I have a hard time calling martial arts "dance" since I've studied under some really traditional teachers where the martial side of the arts were strongly emphasized.

Depends entirely what you mean when you say dance. Fighting has a distinct rhythm to it, The better fighter can force his opponent to fight in his rhythm, and can syncopate that rhythm to maintain control of the lead. *shrug*

No sparring, no belts, no kata, no spinning twirly kicks...simply a method of survival that was designed to do one thing in an application - cause death.

Not quite true... the various old styles used sparring, spinning kicks, and simplistic forms of kata to teach flow, rhythm and timing... and of course there were often belts... what else would they hold their pants up with? ;) Okay seriously you have to spar if you plan on becoming proficient in combat. Striking the air or a board will not teach you how to respond to a living opponent. Sparring wasn't done for sport of course, but it was used.

The true secret of any martial art is never to use it...

I'd disagree. Certain arts were designed specifically to be used. Ying Jow Pai and Wing Chun are two examples of arts designed with combat specifically in mind. In the case of Ying Jow Pai, it was originally comprised of Ngok Fei's Style designed for his soldiers to use in warfare.

For many years the Asian systems (which I dearly love) have dominated the martial art world...but in the next few decades...I believe it will be the Russians who will give the world of martial arts back their true nature.

The Russians? Really? I highly doubt it. The Brazillians were the last people to majorly affect combat, though American/Japanese union has redesigned even their developments. The Russians are pretty much out of the loop, their last developments being the leg locks of Sambo which is pre-coldwar and already overshadowed by luta-livre/shootfighting/MMA.

[danceguy]

Hi Dnice,

Oooh goody! A martial arts debate! We must talk further on this my friend. :)

Depends entirely what you mean when you say dance. Fighting has a distinct rhythm to it, The better fighter can force his opponent to fight in his rhythm, and can syncopate that rhythm to maintain control of the lead. *shrug*

Wait a minute...that sounds like a lady I was dancing with last night...heh heh. :)

About my post, I was referring to more "softer" styles where there is little or no movement...and the higher levels where the masters ability goes far beyond "physical" movement. But even so...I know this must happen with really advanced dancers who have been dancing for many years together. I saw this couple doing Vienesse Waltz last night...a husband and wife who just flowed so beautifully...after being around someone for many years our bodies do begin to link energetically. It was quite amazing to watch. :)

Not quite true... the various old styles used sparring, spinning kicks, and simplistic forms of kata to teach flow, rhythm and timing... and of course there were often belts... what else would they hold their pants up with? ;) Okay seriously you have to spar if you plan on becoming proficient in combat. Striking the air or a board will not teach you how to respond to a living opponent. Sparring wasn't done for sport of course, but it was used.

Hmm, I think you mean the harder styles, like the early Judo and folks like Jhoon Rhee...and I've always admired him. Again I was referring to the older Chinese styles, such as Liuhebafachuan...it dates back about 900 years or so. And yes, of course there is partner interaction in all arts...but what I meant was our modern concept of sparring. The one on one back and forth of trading strikes...not designed for multiple opponents...nor to disable them very quickly. I think sparring in most arts is more for sport these days. And don't get me wrong...I have the greatest respect for boxers...it takes guts to do what they do!

I'd disagree. Certain arts were designed specifically to be used. Ying Jow Pai and Wing Chun are two examples of arts designed with combat specifically in mind. In the case of Ying Jow Pai, it was originally comprised of Ngok Fei's Style designed for his soldiers to use in warfare.

You have a good point there. Are not all martial arts designed for combat, or where at one time? I think my library of Taoist terms got the better of me...as saying "never use it" meant to avoid using it for darker purposes...ie once we learn how easy it is to harm others...we realize just how sacred life is. Every master I have met has told me this...of course these were also guys you didn't want to mess with. :)


The Russians? Really? I highly doubt it. The Brazillians were the last people to majorly affect combat, though American/Japanese union has redesigned even their developments. The Russians are pretty much out of the loop, their last developments being the leg locks of Sambo which is pre-coldwar and already overshadowed by luta-livre/shootfighting/MMA

I won't debate this one with you. But I wasn't talking about Sambo. There is a new group of martial artists on the scene, only around for about 10 years and only becoming well known in the last few. Do an online search for Russian Martial Arts...and all I can say is...prepare to be amazed. There are some folks from that country who have a method of combat that is more effective than any I've seen before..and IMHO, it will most certainly change the world of martial arts...and it already has. :)

Take care,

SG

[d nice]

You mean the Systema? Nothing particularly new or revolutionary in it. Our own spec-ops close quarters combat systms are every bit as useful as is the IDF's Krav Maga. I taught CQC for the Marines (1st, 2nd and 4th FRCO) including a stint at Quantico, and trained over, with, and under SF units from around the world. While a number of units had some interesting techniques there was little that wasn't covered in some manner by multiple other forms. Nothing that I saw as both superior and unique.

The only thing these styles have over most martial arts is a dedicated work ethic, and a dispensement with superficial trappings. This is just the military version of what Bruce Lee was going for with JKD (minus his spiritual/artistic component).

As to sparring, the point tag a lot of commercial styles use is more than a bit removed from the old style. However I've given concussions, knocked out and broken bones in my training partners in Shootfighting. I've seen the same in sparring in several arts. Depends on the art, the branch, and the instructor.

[danceguy]

D-Nice,

Well it sounds like you are much more knowledgeable about SF training than I am...very impressive qualifications. Remind me never to get in the ring with you. :oops:

I don't know much about shootfighting...but it sounds pretty brutal.

Well, I'm finally going to meet and train with the Russian folks in a few weeks...so hopefully it will be a good learning experience. Now, if they teach some of that funky low stance dancing...heh.

Hmm...we seem to have gotten a bit off thread with too much MA discussion...so I'll pull a X-Body lead back to dance...

For me, the best thing that MA has given me for dance is body awareness...being able to sense when other couples get close to myself and my partner on the dance floor.

I wish more people were aware of this! Especially at events that serve alcohol. :shock:

Best,

SG

[Sarah]

Hi,

I've been thinking about the parallels between dance and MA for a while now, and without a doubt I'd agree that they are complementary art forms. However, and I do hope not to offend anyone here, I have a hard time calling martial arts "dance" since I've studied under some really traditional teachers where the martial side of the arts were strongly emphasized.

I don't think that anybody here was calling martial arts dance. I certainly wasn't. My main point has been that many of the often fairly counterintuitive reflexes I've learned in the dojo have translated easily to the dance floor. Heck, my "frame" started life as a defensive reflex.

When the arts have become watered down (sadly, as most tend to be today), they become something else...empty movements.

Like learning a routine without any lead/follow connection? :D

Where I see the similiarity to dancing is the balance, posture and movement of the body.
Agreed... Many of the same traits that make a effective[1] martial artist make a good looking dancer.
But getting to the true essence of the martial arts...there are no forms, no preconceived ideas...no set rules (save moral ones). So on the other hand, they are vastly different.

Weird. What you have described here is the mindset that I achieve when following to the very best of my ability. No preconcieved ideas indeed.

To sum it up, I do feel dancing and MA have some common ground...but as the world of martial arts is so vast...there is a huge gap in the middle.

Different activities with different purposes, but using essentially the same set of tools - two[3] human bodies and the consious and unconsious kinesthetic communication between them. I find the overlap in method as big as you find the gap in purpose.

Cheers
Sarah

[1]able to dominate a confrontational situation[2]

[2] Ok, then `win a fight'. ;)

[3] Two or more.

[KaiTran]

Hi All, I'm fairly new to this forum so I thought I'd just spit out my opinion on this topic since I myself have been in the martial arts for about 10 Years now. I'm 18 by the way. Well first off I wanted to say that the comment about Krav Maga not being a Martial Art is somewhat of a fallacy. Most people see forms, demonstrations, people with gi's on and what not when they think Martial Arts. I think thats what most Krav Maga instructors are trying to seperate the style itself from as far as the sterotypical MARTIAL ART is concern. Martial Arts translates to "Warefare Arts" and Krav Maga is indeed a Warfare Art. I myself take it. As far as Martial Arts and dancing is involved, I believe they can complement each other greatly. I know in some of the softer Martial Arts (such as Aikido), the instructors actually tell their students that they are "dancing" with their opponet in more spirtual sense. From my own experience, my instructors in Shotokan even told me that I should think of myself as performing a dance when doing a Kata to show form and expression but with power and strength. I've also had some classmates with extensive backgrounds in ballet and other dance styles. Lemme tell you, they can make some of those forms look so graceful and beautiful it'll bring tears to your eyes. One example of the complements of Martial Arts and dance on each other is capoeira. This is an art where students actually learn to dance in their own way. However, like I said that is the floopy side of the marital arts. The truth in my opinion however is that the true side of the martial arts has no real similarity with dance. Dance is a performative art and true Martial Arts is not. As said earlier, Martial Arts translates to warefare arts. The core of the Martial Arts is all about combat. Whether the Martial Art studied becomes defensive or offensive is up to the martial artist. In the end, Martial Artist are learning how to fight. I know that can stir up some debate but i believe that to be the truth. Some people say that martial arts is becoming a performative art. I think it can have some performative value, but it really can't be called a martial art (warefare art) if it is performative. Dancing and dancers fit into a whole other category. That is just my opinion of course...and I am young so if anybody has anything to teach me, i welcome them with open eyes and ears.

[KaiTran]

to the person who said that fighting with your opponet can be somewhat like a dance:

I see dance as graceful, beautiful, and some other adjective I can't think of at the moment. I see combat as destructive, far from beautiful, and simply brutal. In most fights, there is no "dance" involved. The only combative "dance" I see are those in movies and TV shows. In dance, usually all the participants are enjoying themselves. In combat, usually the participants are just trying to beat the sh** out of each other. Some might enjoy that but in the end someone will not have very much fun.

[SDsalsaguy]

First off, welcome to the Forums KaiTran! :D

As far as your comments, while I personally do see connections between dance and martial arts I also understand where you are coming from. I think the key to the discrepancy is, at least in part, one of focus -- is it martial arts or martial arts? To differentiate Krav Maga from martial arts with katas, forms, point systems, etc., I usually reference it as a military combat style instead of as a martial art but, as you point out, it is – in a very real sense – a true martial art.

Thanks for adding another perspective and I look forward to seeing what some of the better-versed martial artists here have to offer in response...

[d nice]

Kai have you been in fights before? Sparring or sel-defense.

I've done both it is very much like dancing. There is grace and beauty in the body movement used in a fight. Maybe not of the same aesthetic by which you judge ballet but it is present. Watching a perfectly executed throw, lock, punch or kick leaves me with the same feeling as watching Steven Mitchell execute a perfect swing-out.

As to dancing being a performative art, that is a Western European mindset. Dancing is not just part of life in the African Diaspora it is life.Dancing inthis family which includes most Black Dance (read African American) tends to be about improvisation both rhythmic and pattern. You dance for yourself, becausen you must.

[KaiTran]

Well first I want to say its great to see other people's points of view. To answer your question d nice, yes I have been in many fights. More then I really would have liked to have been in. As far as sparring, I do it all the time because Krav Maga is a full contact combative art. Let me just say first that I think the best fights are the ones that are ended quickly. In the fights I've been in, I just went in, did my stuff, and got out. Basically I don't like to fight and every fight I've been in was one where some "Mr. ToughstufF" wanted to prove himself in front of his friends and my peers. So my philosophy is make the other guys not want to fight anymore then just leave. Thats why I have a hard time seeing such a connection between dance and the martial arts. This is because its so hard for me to see any of the pattern and rhythm mentioned when to me the fighting is such a brutal and unplanned thing. I know I'm talking about fighting rather then the Martial Arts themselves, but fighting is the core of the martial arts in my opinion. Although...I must say I do see your point d nice when watching Frank Shamrock in those cage battles or those great boxing matches. However, the fighting I'm talking about are the ones where it doesn't last more then 30 seconds - a minute. The kind of fights that most survival martial arts (True Karate, Krav Maga, and etc...) were meant to address. (If you wanna know what I mean by True Karate I can elaborate on that later if y'all want)

[d nice]

Shamrock actually is a perfect example. Take a look at his first three or four fights... over in under thrity seconds including the time it takes for the ref to come in and pull Frank off of his opponent and confirm the knockout or recognize the submission.

He moves with grace, speed, and power, adapts instantly to the movement of his opponent, incorporate sthat into his own movement using their momentum or inertia to create the attack he chooses, and establishes clear control of a situation or follows their lead until he has exploited an opening. He controls the rhythm of the fight even when it lasts for only a sixteen seconds.

A lot of whether or not someone will believe that there are ties/similarities to dance and martial arts will be determined by their personal understanding/definitions of the two.

It sounds like we have similar ideas of martial arts, but differing ideas on dance. Not surprising to me, I have a very different view of dance than most people on this forum.

[KaiTran]

Yeah you know..actually you probably have a better point then I do. Fact is I can't dance and know jack about it. I'm basically here because I hope to learn something about it. I actually admire dance a lot and a lot of my friends...(A WHOLE LOT) are dancers. I am a pure Martial Artist and my skills are basically based upon combat. I also do a lot of simulated combat sports such as paintballing and airsofting so you can get an idea of what kinda train of thought I have when comparing the two arts of dance and Martial ARts. I HOPE one day I will learn enough to maybe see your point.

[Sarah]

Hi KaiTran, and welcome

One major similarity between martial arts and dance is that it's impossible to learn it by reading about it. Are you taking dance lessons anywhere, and if so in what style? Some of the best leads I know were martial artists before they were dancers - they seem to instinctively know that more force is not necessarily the answer.:)

Cheers
Sarah

[Porfirio Landeros]

I would hope that between all of us we could list any number of differences between martial arts and dancing. I think that's why the topic of this forum is interesting, because pointing out similarities seems surprising, when martial arts is associated with fighting, and dancing with art/enjoyment.

I trained in Aikido, Judo, and wrestling, while being introduced to ballroom dancing. I got my black belt in Aikido and studied religiously for a total of 8 years (and I still get on the mat now and then). At some point toward my diminishing devotion to Aikido, I changed gears and focused more on ballroom dancing.

What's similar?

You train for hours to do something that only lasts minutes.
You must be in shape physically and have control of your body.
Power is best derived from using your opponent's/partner's energy to your advantange.
The more aware you are of your center of gravity, the better you will be.

These are all I could think of in this quick moment, given that I hear dance coaches say similar things that come out of a Sensei.

In the end, I guess I picked being a Lover over a Fighter...

[Sarah]

:D time this thread was brought back into the light, as we seem to have picked up a few new martial arts types.

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

Very interesting thread--though I think it pretty much covers all the bases already. Some early mention of tae kwon do--most of my MA experience has been in tkd and hapkido. I would agree with most of the people who say that the soft arts have far more potential in enriching a dance background than the hard Korean and Japanese arts. TKD in particular is explosive and sharp. Most strikes and kicks gain their power because the practitioner is taught to release the joint. That means if you're doing something as simple as unfolding an arm, you have to concentrate pretty hard not to let the wrist flick and snap into position.

And as I've written elsewhere, the body alignment in tkd is more or less completely the opposite of what it is in Rhythm and Latin. Any tkdist worth her salt will have to retrain her body in a very basic way when moving into dance.

Oh, and about whether the forms were traditionally practiced--some of the poomse in tkd are many hundreds, perhaps thousands of years old, and they are all quite deadly, if you understand what the form is teaching. The form is the essence of the art, and contains within it all the techniques one would use in fighting.

Just some of my own thoughts from my experience in MA, which has been about 12 years, but is also something I've given over for dancing. So I'm something of an outsider in the MA community these days.

Cheers,

Genesius

[Blondie]

Porfirio Landeros said: (regarding similarities of martial arts and dancing)-
You train for hours to do something that only lasts minutes.
You must be in shape physically and have control of your body.
Power is best derived from using your opponent's/partner's energy to your advantange.
The more aware you are of your center of gravity, the better you will be.

I am a dancer, and so far only an observer of martial arts. But I found your comments very observant, as it is how I see things when comparing the two.

Not long ago on cable tv I saw a show about kung fu, and saw masterful men and women performing it. I was quite impressed with the moves and poses, immediately seeing the visual similarities of using the body in both dance and MA poses. At least that's how I see it...

[Blondie]

I don't want to digress, but since there seem to be so many experts in this forum with a lot of martial arts experiences, I have a question. I am interested in taking a course in a martial art form where I could develop the moves using hands, arms, feet, legs, body, etc. without actually touching other people or punching equipment. Is there such a thing? I want to learn fast moves. I have good reflexes and do well in dancing. I tried taekwondo briefly but did not like using my feet to hit things. (And some people say that taekwondo is not a martial art!)

So is there such a thing as learning fast (and accurate) MA moves and forms without actually touching others or hurting your feet on objects? I heard from some friends that karate may be taught this way. (As you can tell, I just don't know much about this).

[Sarah]

So is there such a thing as learning fast (and accurate) MA moves and forms without actually touching others or hurting your feet on objects?

Hi Blondie

If you want to learn moves which look kinda like punching and kicking, without actually ever intending to punch or kick anything, or even pretending to want to use this stuff in a martial context[1], you might as well go to some Tae-Bo[2] classes. It'll probably be cheaper.


Cheers
Sarah

[1]Competitive sparring -or- self defense.

[2] Or whatever your local gym's non-brand-name equivalent is.

[Genesius Redux]

So is there such a thing as learning fast (and accurate) MA moves and forms without actually touching others or hurting your feet on objects?

Hi Blondie

If you want to learn moves which look kinda like punching and kicking, without actually ever intending to punch or kick anything, or even pretending to want to use this stuff in a martial context[1], you might as well go to some Tae-Bo[2] classes. It'll probably be cheaper.


Cheers
Sarah

[1]Competitive sparring -or- self defense.

[2] Or whatever your local gym's non-brand-name equivalent is.

Actually, my old dojang charged $600 per year, offered 16 classes per week, and you could take as much as you like. MA is a very affordable work-out!

Genesius

[Blondie]

I thought that tae-bo was just hyped up aerobics with some kicks and punches.

[Sarah]

I thought that tae-bo was just hyped up aerobics with some kicks and punches.

Sounded to me as though that was
what you were asking for.

Sorry - that answer's a bit short. Thing is, in a martial art the movement, while often being aesthetically pleasing, has a function and that function is to incapacitate another person.
You probably are already aware that many martial arts have choreographed forms for solo practice, and I get the feeling that that is what you mean, but IMO without having the background knowledge of what it feels like to contact something, be it punching bag, concrete block or living breathing body, those forms become hollow and meaningless.

That doesn't mean that you won't be able to find someone who will sell you something like what you're asking for.

Cheers
Sarah

[Genesius Redux]

I thought that tae-bo was just hyped up aerobics with some kicks and punches.

It is. And in the words of the immortal Bruce Lee, "Boards...don't hit back." :wink:

[Blondie]

Thanks for comments. I do know what punching and body contact are like since I just finished a 3 month course on self defense. We had plenty of experience with being the attacker and the victim. Along the way we punched pads and bags, eventually punched our instructor who wore protective gear. We did a lot of that sort of thing.
Anyway, I won't continue to digress from the original topic.
I appreciate everyone's comments.

:)

[KaiTran]

HI Blondie,

Well first I'd like to say that whoever told you that TKD is not a martial art has demonstrated they don't know fully what Martial Arts is all about. First the term Martial Art in itself means Warfare Art. TKD was created during the Japanese occupation of Korea during WW2 and the Koreans created it to basically have a way of defending themselves w/hand to hand combat. Anyway sorry about but I had to correct that since I get very touchy when people debate what is and isn't a Martial Art. As for a Martial Arts that doesn't concern punching or kicking, I'd recommend TAI CHI to you. Tai Chi is infact a Martial Art in case anybody says otherwise. Its just that you will have an extremely had time finding a good Tai Chi instructor since Tai Chi is mostly used as a relaxation sort of thing these days. It doesn't involved kicking or punching and relies on circular soft energy to fight back. The truth is however, I doubt you'll find a school that still teaches the combative aspects of TAI CHi and even if you find one, it'll take you about 30 years to learn correctly. If you are looking to the Martial Arts as a way of self-defense in a shorter amount of time, there isn't any way around not punching and kicking. The closes I think you'll get to what your asking about is Aikido. Although Aikido does have some strikes and what not...it stresses mostly on redirecting your opponents energy against them. I hope this helps!

[danceguy]

Hi KaiTran,

Wow, I haven't seen you post in a while...quite a lurker!
:D
I wanted to comment a bit on your post as I've studied many styles of Taijiquan (Tai Chi) over the past 10 years.

It doesn't involved kicking or punching and relies on circular soft energy to fight back. The truth is however, I doubt you'll find a school that still teaches the combative aspects of TAI CHi and even if you find one, it'll take you about 30 years to learn correctly

While you are correct that many teachers of Tai Chi only know the health aspects, rest assured the combative parts of the art are still alive and well. Sadly, there are not many practitioners who do teach the fighting elements, but there are some out there and more people are seeking to learn the entire art.

I also wanted to mention that all systems of Tai Chi have punches and kicking. You won't see a lot of kicks, but they are there and quite effective in their use. As far as punches...Chen style in particular is full of them, and they are extremely powerful and deadly...but even softer styles such as Yang and Wu have punches. Other similiar arts such as Bagua are more open handed...while Hsing I Chuan is full of closed fist techniques. And oddly enough, one of the first teachers of Karate in the US (forget his name, but I can look it up later) taught some of the aspects of Hsing I in his schools...I'll find a link to his website and post it when I have more time...

It certainly will not take 30 years to become proficient in Tai Chi, a good instructor, like in any MA can train you to become quite skilled in a matter of months. It all depends what you want out of it and how deep the training goes.

Learning to hurt others is very easy, but learning to master any MA and become a good person who avoids violence can take 30 years...or many more for some people. :? :wink:

Best,

ScorpionGuy

[johnnywalker]

Learning to hurt others is very easy, but learning to master any MA and become a good person who avoids violence can take 30 years...or many more for some people. :? :wink:

Best,

ScorpionGuy

I wish more people could propagate exactly those sentiments. I've attended dojos where some students were more intent on learning to cause harm than to avoid conflict. I've witnessed a student being dismissed from my Aikido school for his agressive and disrespectful ways (he wouldn't even bow when entering the dojo or to an opponent). My sword instructor has been my best sensei though. The violent aspects of the art he has taught as history but the philosophy he has always taught has been more peaceful.
I credit both styles with giving me a better understanding of movement, balance, co-ordination and space which I try to apply to dancing; unfortunately, not always successfully.

[Sarah]

As for a Martial Arts that doesn't concern punching or kicking, I'd recommend TAI CHI to you.
Hi Kai
Nice to see you're still around.
Um - Blondie's original post specified `fast moves'. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I understood that most tai chi practice is not exactly what you'd call fast.
... you are looking to the Martial Arts as a way of self-defense in a shorter amount of time, there isn't any way around not punching and kicking. The closes I think you'll get to what your asking about is Aikido.
She also specified `no touching'. Around about the second[1] thing you'll be asked to do in just about any beginning aikido class is to grab someones wrist, and then it just gets more intimate from there.
Actually the art that I think most fits the original description is iaido[2] - practice is primarily solo kata, no kicking anything, and you're most definitely not allowed to touch anyone. The clothes are cool, too.

Cheers
Sarah

[1] after bowing ;)
[2] Japanese sword drawing art.

[johnnywalker]

Actually the art that I think most fits the original description is iaido[2] - practice is primarily solo kata, no kicking anything, and you're most definitely not allowed to touch anyone. The clothes are cool, too

Do you do Iaido, Sarah? The school I was at (have moved so am looking for another) taught Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Toyama Ryu and Batto Do. We were also part of the Shinkendo Federation.
Although there is no 'touching' involved we sparred quite a bit with both bokken and iaito.
The hakama is great. It is more comfortable than the normal gi. Looks more dynamic too on both Iaido and Aikido practitioners.

[Sarah]

Do you do Iaido, Sarah? The school I was at (have moved so am looking for another) taught Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Toyama Ryu and Batto Do.
Yes, a while ago, until our Sensei had to move away. Also Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.
The hakama is great. It is more comfortable than the normal gi. Looks more dynamic too on both Iaido and Aikido practitioners.
Until one catches a toe and falls flat on one's face. This seems to be a rite of passage in most aikido dojos, where in iaido you're taught to flick the thing carefully out of the way[1]. Then again most aikido dojos don't have bare hardwood floors.
:mrgreen: Theres a thread on men in skirts in the salsa forum, if you're interested. :mrgreen:

Cheers
Sarah

[1] in a cool and stylish manner :D

[johnnywalker]

"Sarah :mrgreen: Theres a thread on men in skirts in the salsa forum, if you're interested. :mrgreen:

Cheers
Sarah

:D

:oops: :shock: there's something oddly liberating about the hakama. :D but if you think you'll catch me in a skirt...well, it would depend on if it made me look good

[Sarah]

but if you think you'll catch me in a skirt...well, it would depend on if it made me look good

Well, what do you reckon?
http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/~physsmw/johnnywalker.jpg

Cheers
Sarah

[johnnywalker]

but if you think you'll catch me in a skirt...well, it would depend on if it made me look good

Well, what do you reckon?
http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/~physsmw/johnnywalker.jpg

Cheers
Sarah

Ha ha...that's great. Hoots Mon, where's ma sporran?

[Noiseman433]

I've done both it is very much like dancing. There is grace and beauty in the body movement used in a fight. Maybe not of the same aesthetic by which you judge ballet but it is present. Watching a perfectly executed throw, lock, punch or kick leaves me with the same feeling as watching Steven Mitchell execute a perfect swing-out.

I agree. And really, there isn't as much of a discontinuity between martial arts and dance. A number of non-far-eastern martial arts still have "ties" to dance in the form of music (someone already mentioned Capoeira, and Muay Thai as a ring sport is always accompanied with music/musicians that improvise to the flow of the action) and theatre (Kalaripayat is still the basis for alot of theatrical training in Indian theatre like Mutiyettu and Kathakali; Muay Boran-ancient thai kickboxing, is primarily practiced as a theatrical form; Silek is the basis of West Sumatran Randai theatre). I look at dane and martial arts as just being at along some sort of continuum of movement based activities that can also include mime, acrobatics/gymnastics, and other less easily classifiable art forms...

As to dancing being a performative art, that is a Western European mindset. Dancing is not just part of life in the African Diaspora it is life.Dancing inthis family which includes most Black Dance (read African American) tends to be about improvisation both rhythmic and pattern. You dance for yourself, becausen you must.

It is more of a Western/European mindset to separately categorize the arts into little boxes, but I also think that dance and martial arts traditions in the west are a little more dichotimized in that way, in a sense...

[Noiseman433]

In the end, I guess I picked being a Lover over a Fighter...

haha...and that is really the basic difference between dance and martial arts isn't it? :wink:

[Noiseman433]

While you are correct that many teachers of Tai Chi only know the health aspects, rest assured the combative parts of the art are still alive and well. Sadly, there are not many practitioners who do teach the fighting elements, but there are some out there and more people are seeking to learn the entire art.

I also wanted to mention that all systems of Tai Chi have punches and kicking. You won't see a lot of kicks, but they are there and quite effective in their use. As far as punches...Chen style in particular is full of them, and they are extremely powerful and deadly...but even softer styles such as Yang and Wu have punches. Other similiar arts such as Bagua are more open handed...while Hsing I Chuan is full of closed fist techniques.

Some forms of Tai Chi are incredibly deadly efficient, indeed.

And oddly enough, one of the first teachers of Karate in the US (forget his name, but I can look it up later) taught some of the aspects of Hsing I in his schools...I'll find a link to his website and post it when I have more time...


I'm not sure who you mean, but I believe that Sosai Oyama incorporated Tai Chi into his Kyokushin style...it didn't long outlive his death, unfortunately (I think only one of his students continued incorporating it)