Historical Swing Dance definition HELP!!!

[Jonathan Walford]

Hi, I just joined your group, and I am hoping you can help me with my dilemna.
My mother who was 'into' dancing when she was young referred to the dancing style she did during the war as 'jitterbugging'. However, it seems this is a term that is not used universally. Lindy Hopping seems to be more used, and of course some people just refer to everything from then as 'Swing dancing'.

Has there been a definition of what was being danced at the time and what it is called? I never seem to get a definitive answer from anyone I ask and I haven't found a consistant answer in any online sites or books that I have come across. Having danced myself during the 70s, I always referred to the dance collectively as 'disco' but with various steps or dances withing that larger category such as Latin Hustle, etc. Is it similar in the 40s and Swing is the collective and Lindy and Jitterbug are dances???

HELP.

[waltzgirl]

Now, "swing" tends to be the overall term covering all the swing dances. Some people still call single time swing "jitterbug."

[Vince A]

Hiya Jonathan . . . and "WELCOME."

I can really relate to your questions.

My Mom was also a Jitterbug dancer (during the war) in New York City, in fact she was a two-time state champ in Jitterbug. She danced with some now famous dancers that are frequently mentioned in the DF.

I grew up doing the Jitterbug and other dances with her.

We have some very good swing historians here, so you should get some great answers soon. I believe your last sentence is close . . . Lindy and Jitterbug, as well, as a host of dances.

Stay tuned for more . . .

[tangotime]

Will give you a brief distinction ( from a war time dancer ) Jitterbug, was an expression applied to the way that people danced to " swing " bands in the states-- this later ( 1940s ) was brought to the UK by the armed forces-- developed in to Jive-- Lindy, named after Charles Lindbergh, and the pre cursor of american style " swing " , is a style still danced today . ( bop, was also a term used )

[Jonathan Walford]

THanks for your input. So I take it then that the terms Swing and Lindy post date the term Jitterbug in regards to dancing to Swing music? I realize Jive and Bop are more 50s terms. However, I am still confused... In the late 1930s and early 1940s the dancing one did to Swing music was called Swing dancing? Jitterbugging? or Lindy Hopping? I realize Europe was behind the States in dance styles as the time.

[tangotime]

All of those-- just different styles .

Time lines ,approx-- Lindy 1927/8-- J>B . / Swing -- thirties/ forties-- Jive late forties early fifties, and Bop , fifties .

And, as usual, the English took a perfectly good dance genre ( swing etc ) and formalised it .

[Steve Pastor]

Cab Calloway had a song and a film using the word Jitterbug in 1935. I'm not sure of the date of the "first" use of the term Lindy Hop, but there is agreement that the dance and the term came out of Harlem.

The terms Lindy and Jitterbug were / are used with almost equal frequency by Life magazine from the mid 1930s through the end of the 1950s. I just checked this on a site that sells those issues and has an index of the article. (Life was a very important publication at one time here in the US.)

This contradicts a popular belief that the term Lindy Hop became less fashionable because Charles Lindberg went to Nazi Germany, got a medal from them, etc. Then, we ended up at war with them.

Arthur Murray identifies the Lindy Hop as the favorite variety of Jitterbug that was done by young New Yorkers (How To Become a Good Dancer 1947).
In the 1959 edition of the same book we find the text "Formerly called Jitterbug, Lindy Hop and various other names in different sections of the country, Swing is the newer title." (Lots of people like to slam AM, but the guy actually wrote things down and had them published, so we don't have to rely on hearsay for everything.)


The kids on American Bandstand in circa 1956 say that their favorite dance was Jitterbug. They were dancing to early rock n roll. (The History of American Bandstand (1985))

The "Swing Revival" was responsible for the reemergence of that particular style call Lindy Hop. Along with newly labeled Hollywood Style, etc.

[LindyKeya]

THanks for your input. So I take it then that the terms Swing and Lindy post date the term Jitterbug in regards to dancing to Swing music? I realize Jive and Bop are more 50s terms. However, I am still confused... In the late 1930s and early 1940s the dancing one did to Swing music was called Swing dancing? Jitterbugging? or Lindy Hopping? I realize Europe was behind the States in dance styles as the time.

My understanding was that Jitterbug was more of a common term for all of what we now call "Swing" dancing. The term Lindy may pre-date the other terms, but Joe MiddleAged Public, if he ever saw young people "swing dancing," probably said they were "Jitterbugging," until that was replaced with "Swing." (He probably also had some comments about that "horrible music.") Many people who were young in the 50's refer to all swing dances as "Jitterbug," although they seem to really be meaning ECS, particularly if they claim to have done it back in the 50's.

(I think we get the same thing now, really, and we just give more credit for accuracy to the older generation. Think about the average person who goes "swing dancing" a few times with their friends, and maybe takes a few lessons. It's a fun, kind of trendy thing to do, but most of those people don't take serious lessons, or dance much at all. I think the same thing probably happened in the 50's. 20 years from now, these kids will say "Oh, I used to swing dance," and not "Oh, I used to do ECS/WCS/Lindy." )

I would consider Lindy-hop a more specialized term, used by the people who did the dance, and others who actually cared (or were trying to sound hip), while swing/jitterbug were used more generally. (Think how your average person thinks of ballroom (well, maybe not now, but 5 years ago) -- Foxtrot, Waltz, whatever all equal "Ballroom" to some people.)

Besides Lindy, and ECS, you also had emerging forms of Jive, Bop, Boogie Woogie, several Shags, Balboa, etc.

[tangotime]

That depends on where one was raised-- in the UK in the late forties early fifties, we called it " Bop ". It transitioned, very quickly, in the ballroom world, to the term , Jive , as I was frequently reminded, by my teachers ! .

Swing is a very generic term, and should be broken down into its " parts " . The type and style of music, as in most dance developement, determines, by and large, the " form " of the dance .

And by the way-- " behind in dance STYLES ??? " , I do believe WE were the ones who created the type of Jive we see today, from the other dances in the genre .
Not to mention, the world wide impact that was made ,in the current forms of Ballroom and Latin-- for better or for worse .

And to make a blanket statement, about dance, one should always, again, define the area, in to which you are refering .

[DennisBeach]

Hi, I just joined your group, and I am hoping you can help me with my dilemna.
My mother who was 'into' dancing when she was young referred to the dancing style she did during the war as 'jitterbugging'. However, it seems this is a term that is not used universally. Lindy Hopping seems to be more used, and of course some people just refer to everything from then as 'Swing dancing'.

Has there been a definition of what was being danced at the time and what it is called? I never seem to get a definitive answer from anyone I ask and I haven't found a consistant answer in any online sites or books that I have come across. Having danced myself during the 70s, I always referred to the dance collectively as 'disco' but with various steps or dances withing that larger category such as Latin Hustle, etc. Is it similar in the 40s and Swing is the collective and Lindy and Jitterbug are dances???

HELP.
You are correct, swing is now normally used to refer to a category of dances, although people doing a specific form of swing, tend to refer to that as swing dancing. West Coast swing dances are normally called West Coast Swing, but other forms of swing frequently advertise their dances as swing, rather than Lindy Hop, east coast, single time etc.. At least it is that way in my area.

[Steve Pastor]

Not exactly the same topic, but I am really interested in everyone's reaction to this quote by Louis Armstrong.
I've been reading W. C. Handy's ("the Father of the Blues") autobiography, and this just blows me away.

Louis Armstrong shared a different version of the history of swing during a nationwide broadcast of the Bing Crosby (radio) Show. Crosby said, "We have as our guest the master of swing and I'm going to get him to tell you what swing music is." He asked Louis to explain it. Louis said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it ragtime, then blues-then jazz. Now, it's swing. Ha! Ha! White folks yo'all sho is a mess. Ha! Ha! Swing!"

Father of the Blues by William Christopher Handy. 1941 MacMillan page 292

Any comments?

[bjp22tango]

You are correct, swing is now normally used to refer to a category of dances, although people doing a specific form of swing, tend to refer to that as swing dancing. West Coast swing dances are normally called West Coast Swing, but other forms of swing frequently advertise their dances as swing, rather than Lindy Hop, east coast, single time etc.. At least it is that way in my area.


Not so in our area.

The Portland West Coast Swing clubs official name is Portland Swing Dance Club. It was around before the renaissance of Lindy Hop so you really can't blame them for not specifying the type of swing they do.

The Portland Lindy Society is for Lindy Hop/East Coast Swing.

[bjp22tango]

Not exactly the same topic, but I am really interested in everyone's reaction to this quote by Louis Armstrong.
I've been reading W. C. Handy's ("the Father of the Blues") autobiography, and this just blows me away.

Louis Armstrong shared a different version of the history of swing during a nationwide broadcast of the Bing Crosby (radio) Show. Crosby said, "We have as our guest the master of swing and I'm going to get him to tell you what swing music is." He asked Louis to explain it. Louis said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it ragtime, then blues-then jazz. Now, it's swing. Ha! Ha! White folks yo'all sho is a mess. Ha! Ha! Swing!"

Father of the Blues by William Christopher Handy. 1941 MacMillan page 292

Any comments?

Well, dipping my toe into a potential mine field because I'm whiter than Snow White:

I think he is just saying that what you called the music wasn't as important as doing the music, that the music spoke for itself, but that "White folks" always had to categorize stuff. (As modern music moguls do to most listeners detriment, I think)

I think it's along the same lines of the "what do you call this kind of swing dance" debate.

Now, in the case of dance, it is fairly important that we know why swing "swings" because, as dancers, it definitely has a different "swingy" feeling from ragged or Ragtime music and Blues and Jazz.

As soon as you put a name to something, the most minor deviation from that "something" will cause a new name to be created.

But maybe it was irritating to the musicians do be playing a different "style" of music each week based on what "white folks" sold the public.

[tangotime]

Louis said, "Ah, swing, well, we used to call it ragtime, then blues-then jazz. Now, it's swing. Ha! Ha! White folks yo'all sho is a mess. Ha! Ha! Swing!"
?



Now let me get this right.. HE said WE used to call it, etc, etc ?

So then in essence, were THEY not re defining the name as the music changed ?.. or... do I detect a resentment that the paradigm was not of their making .

If we are talking " roots ", then yes , we probably would have no dissention... but like a tree, it has branches and all the branches look slightly different .
Definitions do not always define an absolute .

[Alias]

About the "Swing" or "swing" terminology:

I make a difference between "Swing" and "swing".

Music:

Swing music refers (according to Jazz music history) to a specific kind of music that was played in the 1930s, Jazz music that was played in the 1930s by Big Bands, one may talk about the Swing era (sorry for the simplification).

Then given a music genre or a piece of music, one may ask the question "does this music swing?", this may refer to a music technical definition, this may refer to a feeling you have while listening to the music (and then you may try to technically analyse the music to find why), and for dancers this may also refer to feeling something in the music that would translate in something in the dancing (these "something" being a bit subtle, a kind of quality ...).

Music and Dance:

As a dancer I would not specifically target the Swing music, but "dancing Jazz music" (Jazz music was tuned for dancing, but then exploration of new ways in Jazz music led to something not that much suited to dance a priori), in fact I like to dance to New Orleans or Dixieland Jazz music.

Among the dancers, when some talk about "Swing music" do they always specifically think of "Swing music" or do they also include some other "dancing Jazz music"?

It is a mistake anyway to qualify music that for instance "West Coast Swing" dancers dance on as "Swing music" or "swing music" or "swing", because it seems that usually they don't dance to Swing music (or Jazz music) nowadays, and there doesn't seem to be a specific music genre associated to WCS (the kind of music may change over time).

Dances:

There are a bunch of related dances via history and structure, knowing more about how they were named can be helpful to understand testimonies from the past (from old people or from writings), and nowadays when communicating over the world through the World Wide Web - and then being aware of dances outside our local town or country - it is useful to take them into account and not use ambiguous or misleading names.

More on "Swing" in dance names later (maybe).

[ginsu]

Its my understanding that Jitterbug was a regional african american dance from Detroit. Look up Detroit sources for more information on the dance. they take it very seriously.

BECAUSE...

The dance never died in getos of Detroit. It's now called "Jit" "jitten" "Jitting" .

look up "detroit jit" on youtube. its now a solo dance done to techno. And its incorperated many funk/popping moves. But they still count it in 6. And any swing dancer will recognize the steps.

[pruthe]

Thanks for comments on Jitterbug. I'm also familiar with Detroit Hustle which is variant of syncopated 3 count Disco Hustle. Looks like Detroit is another city of dance history. Welcome to Dance Forums.

pruthe

[d nice]

The Lindy Hop was the first "popular" name to Swing Dancing. Jitterbug used to be a derogatory term which eventually was embraced by the dancers and worn like a badge of honor. The Lindy Hop was a specific dance, Jitterbug was synonymous with Swing Dancing and rather than referring to a specific dance or step referred to the freestyle/improvisational approach and use of all the dances.

Steve... the amount of books written by dancers and academics about the dances is wider than you think. Arthur Murray is merely one source, and not the most researched or informed one at that.

[SDsalsaguy]

Arthur Murray is merely one source, and not the most researched or informed one at that.
Quite true d nice.

[Steve Pastor]

Hey, d, I started with Murray because several web sites stated that he and his studios were involved with early West Cast Swing. Some of the things I read were out right wrong, and were not written in the Murray books, as the web sites stated.

When I started, I had no intention of spending so much time on dance and music history. I've looked at dozens of books now (some of which were ones you mentioned in a PM), with WCS being only one of a number of dances I've been checking out. When I come across something that is "out of the ordinary", that I think others may find interesting, I post it here to see what others think.

[Angel HI]

Welcome to the DF to Jonathan and ginsu.

Referencing the OP's o.p., and TangoTime's original post, .....

Its my understanding that Jitterbug was a regional african american dance from Detroit.

??

The Lindy Hop was the first "popular" name to Swing Dancing. Jitterbug used to be a derogatory term which eventually was embraced by the dancers and worn like a badge of honor. The Lindy Hop was a specific dance, Jitterbug was synonymous with Swing Dancing and rather than referring to a specific dance or step referred to the freestyle/improvisational approach and use of all the dances.

Partially correct. The genre came from the Stomp, a fast slave dance, characterized by one step on each foot danced with very high knees (because it was danced outside and in fields), and seperated with what we now call a rock step. We now call the dance Single Time Swing.

The big bands played largely a slightly slower version of this rhythm. This was called Swing (named for the side to side, "swinging" movements of the musicians as they played. The dance that accompanied swing music, naturally became known as swing dancing. A step was added to accommodate the rhythms, and the Lindy (what we now call Double Time Swing) was born. Further references to Charles Lindbergh, and the name Hop came along to further complicate the issue. Also, of little prominence, the slang term Jive, for the music and dance, and Jive Cats, for the dancers, was actually used in the Afro-American communities of the time.

When slower versions of Lindy music were played, a third step developed. However, as music and dances do, when this "Triple Step Swing" crossed over to the faster music, the movements took on more of an up and down...bouncy look and feel, rather than the familiar side to side. Named for a Southern beetle that, when necessary, 'pops' up and down in a similar fashion, the term Jitterbug was coined. It was partially because of this, and further references to southern negros that it was considered derogatory for a time. Perhaps TT can shed more light on how the term Jive developed in the UK and Euro.

[tangotime]

.
Perhaps TT can shed more light on how the term Jive developed in the UK and Euro.


The word " Jive ".. apocraphyl tho it maybe.... emanated from the American servicemen who introduced what they termed J/Bug .

They in turn, refered to people on occasion, as " Jive turkeys" , due to the way that couples sometimes danced a step called the "strut", where the couple walked towards each other with the same head and neck action used by turkeys.

The name became used in the UK for the first time, when it was used to describe a match between an American and a Canadian 1945, when the 1st "championships ? " were held in the UK .
It was not recognised by the then O.B.

I mentioned this in the past, but when we went to public dance halls in the uk in the 40s, many would not allow Jive to be danced ( one location roped off the side off the floor for jive dancers only ! )

[Angel HI]

Thanks, T.

[Steve Pastor]

Well, I may have missed something in the books I've been reading.
Jazz Dance By Marshall Winslow Stearns, Jean Stearns
fails to mention that swing dance came from the "Stomp ".
The Sounds of Slavery By Shane White, Graham J. White
has two occurances of the word stomp, neither of which connects it to Lindy Hop or swing.
Is there a reference for this version of where swing came from?

Meanwhile, sort of following up on the Armstrong on swing comment there's this from "Chronicles of the American Dance"...
"Syncopated offbeats, which had been known to Western musicians for centuries, became a particular earmark associated almost exclusively with Afro-American music. The sense of timing and rhythmic "breaks" were equally a part of the dance." p 60

[SDsalsaguy]

Agreed Steve, I think tt was right in attributing his "history" as apocryphal. I certainly believe that tt's version is what he heard/was told, but I, for one, would want a lot more information and substantiation before I would put that ahead of documented scholarship (e.g. White & White).

[Angel HI]

The Sounds of Slavery By Shane White, Graham J. White has two occurances of the word stomp, neither of which connects it to Lindy Hop or swing. Is there a reference for this version of where swing came from?

Not familiar with the book, however, is either mention of the Stomp in the context of the evolution of the dance? My reference is 2 fold; 1- what we learned in school (American History), and 2- Frankie Manning, the undisputed king of (and only living and still teaching) Lindy Hop (not to be confused with Lindy Swing whoch is often used interchangeably, but is actually the form of the dance using largely the same footwork but w/o the acro).

[tangonuevo]

The dance that accompanied swing music, naturally became known as swing dancing.

I suggest that you refer historical questions regarding swing dance to Peter Loggins' site. For example, see see the thread:

http://dancehistory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=663

There are a zillion stories behind the origins of swing - most of them wrong. Peter may not be right either, but he has certainly put more effort into researching the history of swing than anyone else I know of. And most of his research is first or second person - not urban legend.

A step was added to accommodate the rhythms, and the Lindy (what we now call Double Time Swing) was born.

No. Double time swing is not Lindy. This is in fact a very puzzling statement. Again, it might be very useful if you were to spend some time on www.dancehistory.org

[d nice]

Partially correct. The genre came from the Stomp, a fast slave dance, characterized by one step on each foot danced with very high knees (because it was danced outside and in fields), and seperated with what we now call a rock step. We now call the dance Single Time Swing.

Er... and what do you call the dozens of dances that existed between this "Stomp" and The Lindy Hop? How do you reconcile the fact that Single Time Swing was in fact created well after Lindy Hop?

In short what are your sources for this information?

The big bands played largely a slightly slower version of this rhythm. This was called Swing (named for the side to side, "swinging" movements of the musicians as they played.

And how do you reconcile the half dozen music forms that were created in between Slavery and the creation of Jazz and then the forms of Jazz that predate Swing? Where does Blues fall into this?

In short what are your sources for this information?

A step was added to accommodate the rhythms, and the Lindy (what we now call Double Time Swing) was born.

How do you reconcile the fact that the original step "The Lindy Hop" had a quick-quick-slow rhythm which was identified by the origanal lindy hoppers as well as being seen on film?

In short what are your sources for this information?

Further references to Charles Lindbergh, and the name Hop came along to further complicate the issue. Also, of little prominence, the slang term Jive, for the music and dance, and Jive Cats, for the dancers, was actually used in the Afro-American communities of the time.

How do you reconcile George Snowden's having named the step in the late twenties and the use of the term Lindy Hop throughout Harlem even as late as the 50's? How do you reconcile the slang term jive was a derogatory term used for faking something or lying about something? Not until the mid thirties did the term also become used to refer to a person who did not necessarily lied or faked things, but who was a part of the street culture f hustling and numbers running and into the late 30's become a term for someone who was cool because they were bucking the system and making their own rules rather than following what white society said should be done? That the term Jive amongst Black communities did not refer to the music, but it was a misunderstanding of white observers that it did, and the term eventually through that appropriation came back to the communities and even then used ironically?

In short what are your sources for this information?

When slower versions of Lindy music were played, a third step developed. However, as music and dances do, when this "Triple Step Swing" crossed over to the faster music, the movements took on more of an up and down...bouncy look and feel, rather than the familiar side to side.

How do you reconcile the up and down movement that can be seen in all Bantu descended movement, including the dances that proceeded the Lindy Hop from which moves, styling, and inspiration were taken and informed the dance at its earliest stages?

In short what are your sources for this information?

Named for a Southern beetle that, when necessary, 'pops' up and down in a similar fashion, the term Jitterbug was coined. It was partially because of this, and further references to southern negros that it was considered derogatory for a time. Perhaps TT can shed more light on how the term Jive developed in the UK and Euro.

The Popillia Japonica, more popularly known as the Japanese Beetle, is not a Southern bug, but can be found in most parts of the US. It does not "pop up and down" but lifts it hind legs when threatened. I'm interested how you reconcile the writings and songs of the time which state that it was originally a reference to unskilled dancers shaking, kicking, and bouncing who resembled alcoholics suffering from delirium tremens, or colloquially "the jitters."

In short what are your sources for this information?

[d nice]

Lindy Hop and Lindy Swing? Can you share with us your sources for this? The closest thing I've heard to this is that Lindy Hop as what the New Yorkers and Black around the country danced and Lindy (dropping the Hop) was what White dancers in Southern California danced, prior to the embracing of the term Jitterbug.

I've never heard any of the street and club dancers I've interviewed from the 30's through the 50's reference Lindy Swing, it was always Lindy Hop, Lindy, or Jitterbug. Is this perhaps something exclusive to ballroom trained dancers?

[Angel HI]

Sorry to have not gotten back to you sooner. I understand much of what you have written, and will not get into disagreements about it. I know that history is very much exactly that..."his story...", and variations are often created, misunderstood, misperceived, etc.

As a teacher, the one thing that I have always tried to do is to go to the source... samba in Brazil/Carib; rumba in Cuba; tango in Argentina; etc. My posts were not offered as historical references but merely as a sharing of conversations (probably of general timelines and discussions) that I have had primarily with Lindy Hoppers Frankie Manning (and his confidant whose name embarrassingly escapes me at the moment), and Al Minns (another Hopper who I had the great pleasure to meet in the early '80s), and TV producer, Ken Burns, who I worked with on another project during my 12 years as a television director (dancers always have to have back-up careers... :) )

[Angel HI]

No. Double time swing is not Lindy.

Sorry, again, for the delays, but yes, the double step/skip step style was the origin of Lindy...incidentally, a different dance than Lindy Hop (re your other post). Again, I understand that, like language, things get criss-crossed so that one often can not tell the end of one thing and the beginning of another. I suppose, or rather believe, that much of dance, and its origin/s, not only swing, is like this.

[tangonuevo]

Angel HI:

I think that you will find that many, and especially Damon and even more especially Peter Loggins, have spent tens or hundreds of hours (or more?) talking to, dancing with and learning from the likes of Frankie, Al Minns, et al.

Hell, even I have spent hours in conversation with Willie Desatoff, Ann Mills, and LA swing dancers, have had several hours of 1-on-1 conversation with Frankie Manning, spent an evening with Sugar Sullivan (at the London Lindy Hop Festival years ago) learning about herstroy of swing, danced with some of the elders prior to their passing, read every book I could lay my hands on that purported to cover the origins of swing. etc. etc.

I also know that nearly every one of the elder swing dancers that I have talked to knows the full history of swing in great detail, and that they often disagree :shock:

Since I am an elder (read old) jazz musician (of no known stature!) I also have had the opportunity to talk with musicians from out of the swing era about what they saw on the dance floor. etc.

And at that I still don't feel qualified to expound on the history of swing which is why I referred to Peter's web site. I second Damon's remark regarding your sources.

[d nice]

I've interviewed and spent time with darn near every known surviving member of the Savoy 100. Not one of their versions of the origins of Lindy Hop, Lindy, Jitterbug, Swing etc. matches anything you have written.

As much as people like to take pot shots at history about it being inexact and all perspective an opinion, the amount of information given by the Savoy 100 that agrees and even corroborates each other's stories far outweighs that which contradicts.

If you have a source Peter and I have not interviewed, read, seen, etc. we would love to do so and add that information into the archives of the foundation.

And yes I've spent a hundred or more hours just viewing footage in the archives at the Library of Congress and the Smithsonian. I can't even began to calculate how much time I've spent interviewing, dancing with, and studying under the "old timers" but it puts my video time to shame. Enough that I ended up taking two years off and doing nothing but.

[Dancelf]

If you have a source Peter and I have not interviewed, read, seen, etc. we would love to do so and add that information into the archives of the foundation.

If I freely admit my ignorance of "the foundation", will someone cure it?

[bjp22tango]

If I freely admit my ignorance of "the foundation", will someone cure it?

The California Historical Jazz Dance Foundation

http://www.caljazzdance.com/home.html

[Angel HI]

I also know that nearly every one of the elder swing dancers that I have talked to knows the full history of swing in great detail, and that they often disagree

And at that I still don't feel qualified to expound on the history of swing which is why I referred to Peter's web site. I second Damon's remark regarding your sources.

Agreed. Yet, I thought I answered Damon's remarks.

The California Historical Jazz Dance Foundation

{broken link removed}

Thanks. Always willing to learn something new.

[d nice]

The points you brought up actually contradict the things Frankie has told me as well as the works of well known researchers like Marshall Stearns.

I think I'm not the only one who would like you to cite sources point for point.

[Angel HI]

Is the above post directed to me? If so, I humbly refer you to http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=593458&postcount=30 and http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=596117&postcount=36 . If this isn't enough, Ill see what I cana find. Otherwise, I'll be studying {broken link removed}.

[d nice]

Now that says nothing. Ken Bruns is not a Jazz dancer, Al Minns discusses the origination of Lindy Hop on film and makes no mention of "the Stomp" neither does he mention it when he talks about Charleston, the Cakewalk etc. Frankie tells a different story, and nothing I've read in American history mentions the Stomp as the precursor to the Lindy Hop...

As to every other comment I asked for citations for, he hasn't said anything that support any of those and given interviews that specifically contradict some of that.

[Angel HI]

Now that says nothing. Ken Bruns is not a Jazz dancer, Al Minns discusses the origination of Lindy Hop on film and makes no mention of "the Stomp" neither does he mention it when he talks about Charleston, the Cakewalk etc. Frankie tells a different story, and nothing I've read in American history mentions the Stomp as the precursor to the Lindy Hop...

As to every other comment I asked for citations for, he hasn't said anything that support any of those and given interviews that specifically contradict some of that.

I was merely sharing info from conversations which I have had. All of which, I might suspect, is largely a matter of opinion, even by those who were there, evidently. If we read 2 articles on Lindy/Lindy Hop, we read 2 varying stories. You seem to be particularly bothered by all of this. Care to post or PM me, and tell me why? :confused:

[tangonuevo]

... You seem to be particularly bothered by all of this. Care to post or PM me, and tell me why? :confused:
Although I have not been as outspoken as d_nice, I feel strongly that much of the history of swing is well understood and in general consistently repeated by those how were there. This is also readily available on the web through Peter's site (caljazzdance). I think that where data is available, it, rather than hearsay, urban legend or outright myth, should be provided.

A number of people, including d_nice, have invested enormous amounts of time, energy and thought into determining the history as best they could. Respect for this is a very good thing.

[d nice]

It is just that there is a mountain of evidence that contradicts... well nearly everything you said, and you specifically put your information up counter to what had been presented before. You stated it as if it was verifiable fact, and when asked to either provide those verifiable facts or reconcile the differences you say you have already done so and quote your own statements which are what prompted the request for evidence in the first place.

Now if all you have are conversations from years ago with no verification, and no way to prove your memory is correct, then we can let it go.


As to this being important to me, it is. Dance is extremely important to me and the history and music of the dance is equally important to me. Seeing it treated so cavalierly, seeing good and verifiable information dismissed, does bother me. If you have info that is "new" (as in not widely known by the historians and researchers) that contradicts what has been written and taught for the last 60 plus years, I want to now about it. I want to verify it, and spread that knowledge to the other researchers and academics to vet it.

[Steve Pastor]

I'm sure that by now everyone has trundled over to Peter's site to figure it out themselves. But just in case it seems like there has been more heat than light here...

This is from "Steppin' on the Blues" by Jacqui Malone. page 101

"An influential predecessor of the lindy was the Charleston swing. Barbara Engelbrecht explains that "this swing infused the Lindy Hop's basic step - the syncopated two step, with the accent on the off beat-with a relaxed and ebullient quality. And this relaxed and ebullient style of execution gives the impression, like the music, of the beat moving "inexorably ahead." The dancers feet appear to "fly" in syncopated rhythms, while the bodiy appears to "hold" the fine line of balance in calm contrast to the headlong rush of the feet. " According to Stearns and Stearns, the lindy flowed more smoothly and horizontally that the earlier two-step, had more rhythmic continuity, and was more complicated.
At the Savoy, black musicians and dancers, armed with the musical innovations of Louis Armstrong, helped develop the formula for what was eventuall called "swing music," which swept the country during the Great Depression..."

This is interesting, also, I think. page 103

"According to Stearns and Stearns, the stage was set for movement innovations with the appearance of a group of Kansas City musicaians in 1932. The power and drive of the Bennie Moten Band "generated a more flowing, lifting momentum. The effect on the dancers was to increase the energy and speed of execution."

[Angel HI]

I feel strongly that much of the history of swing is well understood and in general consistently repeated by those how were there. This is also readily available on the web through Peter's site (caljazzdance). I think that where data is available, it, rather than hearsay, urban legend or outright myth, should be provided.

A number of people, including d_nice, have invested enormous amounts of time, energy and thought into determining the history as best they could. Respect for this is a very good thing.

First, let me make something very clear; I admire greatly, humble myself before, and am very interested in those who have devoted serious study/life work to the history of such things. Though, I have studied much more than the average person as to how to do them, I am an expert of nothing in dance outside of AT and Latin. I know my passion for these dances, and apologize to d'nice if I offended the studies in his.

It is just that there is a mountain of evidence that contradicts... well nearly everything you said, and you specifically put your information up counter to what had been presented before.

Now if all you have are conversations from years ago with no verification, and no way to prove your memory is correct, then we can let it go.

Point 1. Getting back to the post that started this assault, my 'only' point was that history is largely a matter of the interpretation/s of what has been passed down over the years. Some historians have swing dances coming from African-amer. dances, while others have them coming from Native Amers, for Christ's sake (Indians... [for clarity only], pardon the lack of PC, here). With some exception (such as Frankie discussing his 'personal' involvements), we are rarely priviledged with the acutal facts of such things as dance origins.

Point 2. There is no argument that swing, in general, evolved from the old African-American traditional/folk/slave dances. "A-Step Stomp", "Gut Stomp", "Stomp"...who knows what the "real" name of that movement was, was a dance done by taking a one step left - one step right - and a type of rock step back and forward. We know it as a dance that the Africans performed before coming to the U.S. (no doubt by some other name), and, recognizing the similarity, we also know it as a type of Swing that, today, we mostly call a Single Time Swing. History tells us that the slaves in amer. would dance this, or something similar, at the end of the day to celebrate finishing the day's work. Probably...the operative word here, the high lifting of the knees had something to do with the original movement, and, as was added over the years, ...the fact that they [dancers] were dancing in the fields which made such movement necessary.

Point 3. Together with proper study, it is a reasonable assumption...ooh! I know, there's that dreadful word, that the 2 step movement of the Lindy is an evolution of the one step movement of Stomp. I recognize, and fully accept, as others have, all of the readings of how Shorty George coined the name, and of how he and others developed the dance afterwards. But, Lindy Hop is a fcombination of many dances that came before or were popular at the time. It seems practically impossible to solidly chronicle to one true source the solo and improvized moves of, say, jazz, and the partnership stuff of Lindy, and the formal eight-count structure of other stuff. There are varying stories as to how it all came about. I guess, I fall...fell...somewhere in here.

Yet, further, it is logical, based on film and other study, that the 3 step movement of later was an evolvement of the 2 step movement/evolution of the Lindy and other dances...Charleston, etc.). This is supported by the film, and kind of b/c, we further have learned that perhaps Stomp didn't influence Swing directly, but became initially popular in what we call Blues dancing. Only later, it crossed over to the swing genre. When I say "learned", of course I mean 'have read or seen (movies)' as an alternative to some other opinion/study.

When listening to the music, it is easy to understand the development of these dances, and the confusion/s as to which came; first, when, and how. As, I am sure that you have, I have encountered many persons who use terminologies interchangeably..."Swing" for "Jitterbug", "Jitterbug" for "Jive", "Lindy" for "Swing".

Dance is extremely important to me and the history and music of the dance is equally important to me.

I agree with you completely that such study is interesting, necessary (to the best of our abilities), and should be taken seriously much as everything else in hsitory.

Seeing it treated so cavalierly, seeing good and verifiable information dismissed, does bother me.

This, I think, was a wee unfair. Nothing in my posts suggests authority, a "cavalier" attitude, nor, certainly, a dismissal of information. Again, I was merely sharing. Perhaps, it is prudent, or at least a safety zone for me, :rolleyes: that you, and others, could keep in mind that I, and many, learned these things largely in European schools, which taught, no doubt, a very different history than the U.S.

I find it incredible that you never heard this stuff http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=587412&postcount=21, but when looking through some of my stuff, begging your indulgences that 'my stuff' is well divided between Hawai`i, Alaska, and the Gulf, here are some things that I pulled which speak to some of this.

1. Zimbabwe Dance and African Dance (both by Kariamu Welsh Asante)
2. Free Dance by Susan Clark
3. Bound and Free (a book on early, early Jazz) by Stearns
5. The Story of American Vernacular Dance (I think with Frankie)
6. The Black Tradition in American Dance

Conceding, this is it. :notworth: Just as in life...always a student. :cheers:

Angel

[Angel HI]

Steve, your post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=597375&postcount=43 is exactly, and all, that I was saying in my post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=587412&postcount=21 . Perhaps, I just didn't do it right. But, thanks.

[Steve Pastor]

It'll be interesting to see if anything in there will be contradicted.

[Steve Pastor]

The Funky Butt, Squat, Fish Tail, and Mooche are all performed with hip movements. Similar dances were popular in New York City by 1913. When dancers at the Jungles Casino-"officially a dancing school" "got tired of two-steps and schottiches...they'd yell: 'let's go back home!'...'Let's do a set'...or 'Now put us in the alley!' I did my Mule Walk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mule_(dance)) or 'Gut Stomp' for these country dances.", according to pianist James P. Johnson. "The dancers were from the Deep South."
http://www.redhotjazz.com/jpjohnson.html
Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance By Marshall Winslow Stearns, Jean Stearns 1994 Da Capo Press page 24

[d nice]

The gut-stomp (and early version of what is sometimes called knee-rocks in Blues dances or Applejacks in Jazz) does not fit the description that Angel is putting forward. There is nothing that ties the description he put forward with the development of Lindy Hop, all evidence points to the rock-step as an evolution of the kick step from the break away step in the Texas Tommy done with Charleston timing.

The Gut Stomp is the predecessor to the Gut-bucket, a solo Blues dance with a ton of hip and torso articulations.

As to the sources cited... most of them can't be found in the library of congress, do you have ISBN numbers?

Also, anything that stated that Native Americans created Swing Dancing is wrong. Just plain wrong. No if's, and's or but's.

Now if "the Stomp" is the name Europeans and Euro-Americans gave a traditional West African dance you could probably trace it through a few dozen different dances into the Lindy Hop, but it is disingenuous to say the rock-step "comes" from that dance. I could just as easily say the rock step comes from a dozen different solo dances all originating with the Bantu speaking people of West Africa.

What we have here is probably an example of cum hoc ergo propter hoc. You see one thing in a dance and something similar in another dance and assume correlation/descent.

I'd find it more believable that there was a correlation between "the Stomp" and the Jigwalk from your description than "the Stomp" and the Lindy Hop, and even then it would be based entirely on similarity of gross movement rather than on a chain of dances showing the evolution.

[Angel HI]

As to the sources cited... most of them can't be found in the library of congress, do you have ISBN numbers?]/quote]

I actually have the books, but as I said on my post #44, they are scattered all over the country at the moment. Here are 2, though. ISBN 0-8478-1092-5 (file:///C:/wiki/Special:BookSources/0847810925) and ISBN 0-8478-1092-5 .

[quote=d nice;598147]Also, anything that stated that Native Americans created Swing Dancing is wrong. Just plain wrong. No if's, and's or but's.

Again, in my former post, I agree 100%. I said that sometimes even written records are questionable, and sometimes just down right ridiculous.

Now if "the Stomp" is the name Europeans and Euro-Americans gave a traditional West African dance you could probably trace it through a few dozen different dances into the Lindy Hop, but it is disingenuous to say the rock-step "comes" from that dance.

Re the side-side-back/fwd step of the Muchongoyo being directly/indirectly related to the side-side-rock step of stomp, lindy, jitterbug/jive, or whatever, perhaps, you have another point worth considering. The U.S. is such a young country in relationship to europe. It is not surprising that history; researches...traces, etc would go back to different origins than euro researches, accounts, etc. I just feel that, given the history of Africans, and their relationship to US history, it is a reasonable assumption/reference that certain music/rhythms/movements could be related to similar music/rhythms/movements prior to the recording/publication of accepted forms such as Texas Tommy, Charleston, etc.

Again, as I posted, I am NOT contesting authoritarian study (you/others) as to the contemporary development of anything. It is NOT my area of expertise. I have already conceded...and meant it.

[Steve Pastor]

My favorite "book locator" is WorldCat.
The "Zimbabwe Dance " book Kariamu Welsh Asante. African World Press, Inc. 2000. page 56 ISBN 0-86543-492-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0865434921) is one of the ones I've looked at, too.
One thing that strikes me about traditional African dance is the absence of "partnering", and the presence of well defined, and usually quite different movements performed by men and women.
It's also interesting to note the change from a tradition steeped in, well, traditonal, and usually group oriented ways of doing things, to the -in the Americas- seeming emphasis on individual expression.

Jazz Dance: The Story of American Vernacular Dance By Marshall Winslow Stearns, Jean Stearns 1994 Da Capo Press page 13 ISBN 0306805537 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0306805537)

ISBN for Steppin on the Blues is 0-252-02211-4.

I've read enough now to agree with several authors who think of things in terms of there being vernacular movements, which have been combined and recombined to become "dances" at certain times.

Correct or not, there is one author that believed that there was input from Native Americans, not for the Lindy, but for the "Cakewalk", which itself was done in so many different ways...

Ethel L. Urlin writing in the 1912 "Dancing, Ancient and Modern" stated that "It originated in Florida, where it is said that the Negroes borrowed the idea of it from the war dances of the Seminole...The negroes were present as spectators at these dances, which consisted of wild and hilarious jumping and gyrating, alternating with slow processions in which the dancers walked solemnly in couples. The idea grew, and style in walking came to be practised among the negroes as an art."
http://www.archive.org/details/dancingancientmo00urlirich
see page 13

[d nice]

Urlin is in an extreme minority. First the Seminole didn't dance man/woman, they danced in solo, or in groups of like sexes, with each sex having their own dances and own steps. Second, there were Cakewalkers alive who have been interviewed numerous times and the origination and inspiration they all credit is the European Grand March, the Jig step known as Strut, and the derision dances of West Africa as being the three biggest influences on the Cakewalk.

There is just not enough evidence to support the idea of the Seminole band. Intermarrying of the Creek and freed and escaped slaves and cross pollination of cultures didn't happen for a decades after the Cakewalk was already popular among Southern Blacks.

Also all evidence of "single time Swing" which uses the step-step-back-step you are referring to came out in the 50's, the step is not believed to have been a part of Lindy Hop. There certainly is no reference, clip, and I have never heard of a dancer from the 30's or 40's who has ever said otherwise. Frankie has said (on film) that the Single Time Swing was not done in Harlem during the Jazz Age as far as he can remember and Norma has down right blasted the step as a bastardization of Lindy Hop, part of the dumbing down of the dance after it started being taught by chain studios.

You might be able to make a case that the step evolved into Shag, but there still is no corroborating evidence.

It is a reasonable assumption that two things that look alike may be related. In that you are right... but when there is evidence to the contrary (and multiple sources of it), asserting it is so makes little sense.

Now the Jig Trot, might be a more solid argument and something that might be worth looking into. The Jig in the title references both the Irish percussive dance and the African percussive dance that took on that same name. The steps were blended together and done in a face to face partnering. The rhythm is a little different than that in Single Time Swing, but there are a number of elements of the gross movements that match up at least to the casual observer.

[tangotime]

One thing that strikes me about traditional African dance is the absence of "partnering", and the presence of well defined, and usually quite different movements performed by men and women.
Snip




This also reflects the same principles in the foundational core of Mambo / Salsa . The "call and response " theory demonstrated in indigenous Rumba .

[Steve Pastor]

No one should be surprised that I did some fact checking...
And, really, I'm not arguing about the absoluteness of "where the Cakewalk came from", but...

Africans and Native Americans

The incoming English government soon learned that Florida was a magnet to Africans and African Americans in North America who sought freedom from slavery. Once in Florida, freedom seekers encountered the Creek and Seminole Native Americans who had established settlements there at the invitation of the Spanish government. Those who chose to make their lives among the Creeks and Seminoles were welcomed into Native American society.

Governor John Moultrie wrote to the English Board of Trade in 1771 that ?It has been a practice for a good while past, for negroes to run away from their Masters, and get into the Indian towns, from whence it proved very difficult to get them back.? When British government officials pressured the Seminoles to return runaway slaves, they replied that they had merely given hungry people food, and invited the slaveholders to catch the runaways themselves (Schafer 2001:96).
http://www.africanaheritage.com/black_seminoles_1.asp

Without looking it up the reference, there is a vaudevillian who is on record as saying that his in his grandfather's day...
OK, I looked it up.
Vaudvillian Tom Fletcher heard the following account from his grandfather, "The cake walk, in that section and at that time, was known as the chalk line walk. There was no prancing, just a straight walk on a path made by turns and so forth, along which the dancers made their way with a pail of water on their heads. The couple that was the most erect and spilled the least water or no water at all was the winner."
Steppin' on the Blues. by Jacqui Malone. University of Illinois Press. 1996. page 43. ISBN 0-252-022114
Perhaps this was a parody of white people dancing, but it's also extremely common to see people carrying substantial loads of whatever on their heads in Africa. (I refer specifically to Tanzania, where excellent posture is very notable, but I don't think I'm overgeneralizing about where/how things are carried in sub-Saharan Africa. I may be??)
So, does the popularity of "the Cakewalk", which in itself seems to allow for/has been composed of, many different movements, go back as far as the late 1700s, before blacks and Seminoles mixed? And if so, where can I confirm that?

[d nice]

I'll have to look at my books to find which one(s) specifically reference it, but the slaves were being put against one and other and bet on by there masters, these dance contests date to the 1600's. The derision dances come directly from Africa, the strut the main step in the Cakewalk shares a number of elements in common with a few dance steps from the Agbor, Akan, and Kalabari. While it is impossible to say that the Strut step was formed by these three tribes, their dances precede slavery and these three tribes were among those taken from Africa and brought to the American South. It could be coincidence, but I think the claim of descent makes more sense than the Seminole...

Being part Native American (though these days who isn't, right?) I certainly love the idea of their having a direct part in the creation, but the dates just don't add up, and if the largest amount of evidence cited is a resemblance between the too, I think the Grand March done by both the French and English have just as much chance of being the inspiration (and have already been pointed out as the most likely inspiration in a number of books).

[rembrandt44]

There are many dances that came before the Charleston era, such as black bottom, ragtime, etc. But there can be no doubt that the Lindy hop was developed right out of the Charleston era in Harlem, as dancers like Shorty George began to "Swing out" from their partners. And the term Lindy hop was coined.

as evidence I submit the following (1929(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di5eYAtf0f0

The Savoy ballroom in Harlem was one of the most integrated places in the country. Black, white, it didn't matter as long as you could dance. From this era swing spread around the country taking on different names and styles. Certain dances like Carolina shag, west coast swing, balboa, may have roots other than Charleston, but that is all part of the evolution of dance. Tracing it is difficult because new dances often draw from many different influences. However, there can be no doubt that the Lindy hop was developed right out of the Charleston era, which was a huge era of music and dance across the country that cannot be ignored when talking about the Lindy hop.

[tangotime]

And, really, I'm not arguing about the absoluteness of "where the Cakewalk came from", but...





My research tells it slightly different.... Apparently, the slaves were asked to perform dances, and the winner was awarded.. you got it.. a cake

[Steve Pastor]

Thanks for bringing up the Cakewalk.
This seems to be the sum total of evidence regarding cakewalk
If anyone had any additional accounts from "plantation days", please let me know.


First Person Accounts
In the 1981 article "The Cakewalk: A Study in Stereotype and Reality" Brooke Baldwin cites "an almost exhaustive compilation of those accounts which have been found so far".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-2) This compilation consists of eyewitness accounts by ex-slaves from Virginia and Georgia recorded by WPA researchers in the 1930's, along with second hand accounts from other sources. Baldwin notes that "when the reasearchers of the Federal Writer's Project of the W.PA. interviewd aged ex-slaves in the 1930's, there was no longer any need to suppress information about the happier moments of slave life."[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-3)
Louise Jones; "de music, de fiddles an' de banjos, de Jews harp, an' all dem other things. Sech dancin' you never seen before. Slaves would set de flo' in turns, an' do de cakewalk mos' all night"."[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-4)
Georgia Baker said that she sang a song when she was a child. "Walk light ladies, De cake's all dough" She laughed and added, "Us didn't know it when we was singin' dat tune to us chillun dat when us growed up us would be cakewalkin' to de same song".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-5)
Estella Jones; "Cakewalkin' was a lot of fun durin' slavery time. Dey swep yards real clearn and set benches for de party. Banjos wuz used for music makin'. De womens wor long, ruffled dresses wid hoops in 'em and de mens had on high hats, long split-tailed coasts, and some of em used walkin' sticks. De couple dat danced best got a prize. Sometimes de slave owners come to dese parties 'cause dey enjoyed watchin' de dance, and dey 'cided who danced de best. Most parties durin' slavery time, wuz give on Saturday night durin' work sessions, but durin' winter dey wuz give on most any night."[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-6)

Second Hand, Oral Tradition Accounts
A South Carolinian told of Griffin, a fiddler who played for the dances of the whites as well as for the "annual cakewalks of his own people".[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-7)
A story told to him by his childhood nanny in 1901 was repeated by 80 year old actor Leigh Whipple, "Us slave watched white folks' parties where the guests danced a minuet and then paraded in a grand march, with the ladies and gentlemen going different ways and then meeting again, arm in arm, and marching down the center together. Then we'd do it too, but we used to mock 'em every step. Sometimes the white folks noticed it, but they seemed to like it; I guess they thought we couldn't dance any better."[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-8)
Ex-ragtime entertainer Shepard Edmonds told in 1950 of memories related to him by his parents from Tennessee; "...the cake walk was originally a plantation dance, just a happy movement they did to the banjo music because they couldn't stand still. It was generally on Sundays, when there was little work, that the slaves both young and old would dress up in hand-me-down finery to do a high-kicking, prancing walk-around. They did a take-off on the manners of the white folks in the "big house", but their masters, who gathered around to watch the fun, missed the point. It's supposed to be that the custom of a prize started with the master giving a cake to the couple that did the proudest movement."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-9)
Baldwin concludes that the Cakewalk was meant "to satirize the competing culture of supposedly 'superior' whites. Slaveholders were able to dismiss its threat in their own minds by considering it as a simple performance which existed for their own pleasure" (p. 211). [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-10)
Not included in the Baldwin article, vaudevillian Tom Fletcher, heard the following account from his grandfather, " The cake walk, in that section and at that time, was known as the chalk line walk. There was no prancing, just a straight walk on a path made by turns and so forth, along which the dancers made their way with a pail of water on their heads. The couple that was the most erect and spilled the least water or no water at all was the winner."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-11) Fletcher also commented that, "The old "chalk-line walk was revived with fancy steps by Charlie Johnson a clever eccentric dancer... The "chalk-line walk" then became known as the "Cake Walk."[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cakewalk#cite_note-12)

The dance was popularized by minstrels.

[Steve Pastor]

For the most part I agree with rembrandt44, but it's a bit more complicated than that.

According to Ethel Williams, who helped popularize the Texas Tommy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Tommy) in New York in 1913, the Texas Tommy "was like the Lindy", and the basic steps were followed by a breakaway identical to that found in the Lindy. "You add whatever you want there." Two additional dancers stated that: "The Texas Tommy had a different first step than the Lindy, or Jitterbug, that's all." "I saw the Texas Tommy around 1914. It was just like the Lindy Hop".[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_hop#cite_note-2)
Savoy dancer "Shorty" George Snowden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Shorty%22_George_Snowden) stated that, "We used to call the basic step the Hop long before Lindbergh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lindbergh) did his hop across the Atlantic. It had been around a long time and some people began to call it the Lindbergh Hop after 1927, although it didn't last. Then, during the marathon at Manhattan Casino, I got tired of the same old steps and cut loose with a breakaway..." [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_hop#cite_note-3) Fox Movietone News covered the marathon and took a close-up of Shorty's feet. When asked "What are you doing with your feet," Shorty replied, "The Lindy". The date was June 17, 1928.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_hop#cite_note-4) The Stearns write that, for that time and place, Snowden had invented the breakaway, the essence of Lindy.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_hop#cite_note-5)

Note that the Stearns write "for that time and place, Snowden had invented the breakaway". Note further that many European dances involved partners separating, and coming back together again (Think dances like the minuet. There were many others that were common in "the colonies", etc. Ever seen square dancers?), which is probably what the Streans had in mind.