Finding beat 1

[HoboChilli]

How do I find beat 1 of a Salsa track? I recently purchased Salsa On The Beat CD and it said the loud low pitched Conga is beat 4 and the loud high pitched Conga is beat 2. From that I should be able to find the odd beats. Is this right?

[Angel HI]

There are many ways to finding the 1. It has little to do with salsa, and much to do with music, in general. A simple study will help you. As for salsa, specifically, one of the best tools ever is still an old tutorial (only available on casette, I believe) from Eddie Torres.

[tj]

Sweavo's salsamerlizer is helpful, too.

http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/

[HoboChilli]

Whats the relationship between the yellow and pink squares? I'm guessing Conga pink is for the down beat and yellow is for the upbeat. Wish I could slow it down to analyze it better.

I'm assuming my first post is correct since none of you said it is wrong in finding beat 1.

[tj]

Hopefully sweavo will read this and answer your questions about the square colors.

As for the 2, yes, I definitely agree. Dunno about the 4.

Also the cowbell (when present) is typically 1-3-5-7.

[HoboChilli]

Would determining beat 1 differ based on whether I'm dancing On 1 or on 2?

[tangotime]

Piano is frequently the " opener " , for many recordings . The 2 bar phrase is very dominant thru out in some cases .

[Angel HI]

Would determining beat 1 differ based on whether I'm dancing On 1 or on 2?

No. The music is constant. The movement is the perogative of the dancer. Thsi is what allows us to decide whether we wish to dance on 1 or 2; yet, the 1 is in the same place regardless.

Most 1s are considered to be 'downbeats' as they are more pronounced than the others, and more importantly, albeit more difficultly, defining of phrasing. This is the perplexing factor in maintaining 1s. A couple of things that might help in the interim of acquiring sweavo's or eddie's materials...all music breathes; just like humans (after all, we play it). There is a definite "in" and "out" in the music. Try to hear it...feel it. It's not a beat; moreso, a feeling; a rhythmic breathing. The one is generally at the beginning of the inhale.

Don't hyperventilate. :)

[HoboChilli]

Thats what my instructor kept telling me; find the down beat. But my issue is that the music is usually too fast with numerous percussions. Its hard for me to lock in on the down beat.

I need to first focus on a default percussion instrument before I can lock in on the down beat.

[delamusica]

Sit down with someone who's good at it and just count music out loud together.

My partner used to have trouble telling 1 from 5. We would get in the car with a cd of practice music and just drive around and count while we were out doing errands and such. Helped a lot.

[tj]

I also used to use the vocals as a crutch. Depends on the song, however.

[Laura]

Vocals, melody line, and rhythm section -- I listen to them all rather than pick out a specific instrument and try to follow it. With all the syncopations in some Salsa tracks, it can get really confusing!

Perhaps if you hum along, and also let yourself clap and snap as comes naturally, it helps you become aware of how the music is phrased and where the downbeats are. Try playing Salsa music in the shower and bopping along to it. But don't try actually dancing -- you might slip!

[Angel HI]

[quote=HoboChilli;462103]But my issue is that the music is usually too fast with numerous percussions. Its hard for me to lock in on the down beat.
quote]

2 further points. 1 - All music is slower than it sounds. The ear hears all of the instruments and orchestration. This often obscures what I call the base tempo. To help find it, especially in salsa, try point 2 - You obviously have a sense of rhythm. Take nice even slow steps side to side in rhythm (some like to touch the feet together after each step...L touch, R touch, L touch, etc). After settling in to this, the slowest common rhythm in 2 counts, add a third step in the middle...L and L touch, R and R touch, etc. 7-8 times out of 10, you'll instinctively hit the 1.

Try it. It's a fun exercize.

[Josh]

Watch a video with someone dancing to music and have someone with you who knows to count aloud for you. Do this a lot. Once you have a hold on it, listen to salsa every time you get in your car and imagine yourself dancing with the music. This is the most crucial part- imagination plays a key part in any success you will have as a dancer.

Technical methods in finding rhythm have merit IMO, but the "just watch this" and then "now you do it" method is probably the easiest, as rhythm must become natural and not require much thought.

[etp777]

Sit down with someone who's good at it and just count music out loud together.

My partner used to have trouble telling 1 from 5. We would get in the car with a cd of practice music and just drive around and count while we were out doing errands and such. Helped a lot.

This is definitely a point I lack in. I can pick up 1, but as far as I personally know, don'tpick up the phrasing at all. Honestly, not sure how after years of music I can pick up 1, butnot 5, but I don'tknow anyone else who picks up the phrasing, so I can't check what I'm doing. I'd guess both my sisters and my mom do, as they were all music majors, and 2 out of 3 at least were classically trained, but I haven't askeed them. . I'm just happyh if I can pick up the measure. AND decide on1 or on2 and whether I can give a firm lead for my partner at the time.

Scared to ask pro what she thinks of my lead on this. :) I know she has competed a lotin past at several latin dances, and definitely a LOT better at salsa on2 (or mambo, as we call it), but not sur eat her experience musically, or if it matters. I talk very little with her abouut the past, orher life. I'm a franchise student, and already have 4 ouot of 6 studios in region that I won't take lessons at. I tend to operate with a large fear of adding another studio to that list. Esp. since I've learned howwell my current pro fits my personality and learning style.

[sweavo]

Hi,

I will not explain the coloured squares because there is not necessarily any system there. They are there to be explored by you as you listen and play with the Salsamerlizer. The aim of the Salsamerlizer is not so much to give you rules but to activate your ability to listen to and feel the rhythms. The coloured squares can help your eyes to help your ears, but little more than that.

Having said that, the usual 8 beats ARE marked on the salsamerlizer, so you can use it to gain a good feeling for where the 1 is.

Your issue with the music being overly complex is very common. The Afro-Latin ear is much more accustomed to following these complex rhythms (according to this DvD http://www.amazon.com/Salsa-Latin-Pop-Music-Cities/dp/630131171X). It takes the rest of us some real effort to hear something other than a blur. Use the mute buttons on the Salsamerlizer to simplify what you hear and sooner or later one or more instruments will start to make sense to you. For many it's the conga. For others, the cascara makes more sense.

Good luck! Don't get too hung up on this point, but take your time and enjoy the music. Once you can enjoy and follow the music, it will add a great dimension to what you get out of salsa!

[eidt: I wish it was slowdownable too, but my skills weren't good enough!]

[salsamarty]

I agree with delamusica. Count with someone who does know("feel") the 1 beat until you get it. I probably spent about 2 weeks in the car listening intently for the 1 beat and eventually I just got it. If you know it's there and listen to a lot of salsa music and you look for it then you should eventually get it. Don't complicate it by doing it while you dance. It is more related to how you would tap your foot or hands to the music.

[etp777]

Also, dont' necessarily limit yourself to listening to salsa. If you can pick up 1 in any style, it will help you pick up 1 in others. Obviously, salsa is going to be harder than some songs, but if you can pick up one in others first, it will help on picking it up in salsa. Heck, I learned how to do it in just about every other style before I ever listened to salsa, and now that's made it completely simple when I started on salsa.

Of course, picking up 1 doesn't necessarily help me start on 2 when I'm doing mambo. :)

[LovingIt28]

Great Thread - Many Thanks!

[Ogreking]

Some great suggestions and tips already. As someone pointed out, just finding the tempo and tapping your foot or clapping your hands to the music helps alot. Once you can do that comfortably you are pretty much home, and you shouldn't really have much trouble finding the 1 (or sometimes 5). Some songs are harder than others of course. I've been studying music at college for more than 2 years now, and even though I have a pretty trained ear, some songs are still just a blur until I hear the melody or actively search for the beat.

[Angel HI]

As someone pointed out, just finding the tempo and tapping your foot or clapping your hands to the music helps alot.

Unfortunately, this just doesn't work; evidenced by the massesof persons on a dance floor who obviously have no concept of a beat, tempo, body control, or anything else. A learned understanding of music and its varied components is essential. Some seem to have a sense of timing and such naturally, but musicality is learned either through formal study or immergence.

Welcome to the DF. Thanks for the post.

[Ogreking]

Unfortunately, this just doesn't work; evidenced by the massesof persons on a dance floor who obviously have no concept of a beat, tempo, body control, or anything else. A learned understanding of music and its varied components is essential. Some seem to have a sense of timing and such naturally, but musicality is learned either through formal study or immergence.

Welcome to the DF. Thanks for the post.

Sure, but then again, they didn't really find the tempo, did they? ;) If you (or they) find the tempo it does help alot. They may start clapping or tapping on the 2 or whatever, but it's still better than just randomly tapping, as some people seem to do, hehe.

[Angel HI]

Sure, but then again, they didn't really find the tempo, did they?

I am a wee confused by your post. Tempo has naught to do with tapping. Tempo (timing) is quite different from rhythm, yes?

[Ogreking]

I am a wee confused by your post. Tempo has naught to do with tapping. Tempo (timing) is quite different from rhythm, yes?


To me, finding the tempo = finding the "pace" of the song. "Beats per minute". And tapping your foot to the song has alot to do with it. Where and how often in a measure you tap is somewhat subjective, since we usually don't tap on every 1/4-note, but rather tap to what we feel is the pulse in the song (on 1 and 3 for example). It doesn't guarantee one finds beat 1, but it's a step in the right direction.
One can find and improvise numerous rhythms within a tempo. The salsa clave is one rhythm, and it can be in a fast tempo or a slow tempo.

I understand it can be a bit confusing, since rhythm can also be used to describe the pace of a song. "A slow rhythm".


In the case with folks just tapping randomly, I think they haven't found the pace of the song, and are just guessing where beat 1 is. Thus, they end up tapping everywhere except where they should... But that is just a wild theory. They may hear some percussion somewhere and/or mix all the percussive rhythms up. And that makes it VERY hard to find beat 1 I would guess. What do I know... =)
If they find the pace (tempo) but not beat 1, they should at least tap on the same beats consistently through the song, 2 and 4 for example (2, 4, 6 and 8 in salsa terms over two musical measures).

I can't imagine how anyone could dance to a song if they can't hear the tempo. Brave souls though. They could just as well turn the music off and present their moves as morning exercises.

[Sagitta]

I can't imagine how anyone could dance to a song if they can't hear the tempo. Brave souls though. They could just as well turn the music off and present their moves as morning exercises.

Well I danced with a follower who is good at keeping the beat etc a couple weeks ago, but this time she totally relied on me. She is good at swing/argentine tango etc, but for this one song it was all me. It happens. ;)

[gte692h]

The '1' is usually stressed in piano, or bass guitar. Another good reference is the cowbell, which hits on 1, 3, 5, 7.

As an example of the cowbell, here is a video of 'micaela' by sonora caruselles - I pick this band cos they make the '1' easy to find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxE-lri4zI

The 'hoo' and the 'ha' are on 1, 3, 5, 7, and the claps are on 2, 4, 6, 8. Once the song kicks in, the cowbell stresses 1, 3, 5, 7.

Count as you go along, eventually, you'll sense it without counting.

[Ogreking]

Well I danced with a follower who is good at keeping the beat etc a couple weeks ago, but this time she totally relied on me. She is good at swing/argentine tango etc, but for this one song it was all me. It happens. ;)

It was meant for leads mostly :)

[sweavo]

The '1' is usually stressed in piano, or bass guitar. Another good reference is the cowbell, which hits on 1, 3, 5, 7.

I disagree about the bass. Often it will hit the 1 at the start of the song, then scarcely touch it again for the rest of the song. Take the clip you posted. Bass is on 2& and 4 pretty much all the way through.

As an example of the cowbell, here is a video of 'micaela' by sonora caruselles - I pick this band cos they make the '1' easy to find:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJxE-lri4zI

[quote]The 'hoo' and the 'ha' are on 1, 3, 5, 7, and the claps are on 2, 4,6, 8. 'Hoo' is on 1 but 'ha' is actually on 2& (you can hear this if you sing the hoo hah while listening to the cowbell. 'hoo' hits the cowbell and 'hah' is a moment before it).

You're spot on with the claps and cowbell though. Between the cowbells, claps and the 'hoo' it does indeed give a great indication of the 1. The only small problem here is that the claps and the hoo hah refrain won't be there on most tunes! They are influences from boogaloo, which is much more soul-y and easier to find the beat on.

Hope I haven't confused everyone with that :-/ Part of the thing about this music is that it's not particularly helpful to think about it in terms of beats, but it has to be felt...

[tj]

What a bunch of hoo hahs! :rolleyes: ;)

[Sagitta]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagitta http://www.dance-forums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?p=464978#post464978)
Well I danced with a follower who is good at keeping the beat etc a couple weeks ago, but this time she totally relied on me. She is good at swing/argentine tango etc, but for this one song it was all me. It happens. :wink:



It was meant for leads mostly :)

Same for leads. I've had difficulty a few times and relied on the followers! Not a problem. :p

[Ogreking]

Same for leads. I've had difficulty a few times and relied on the followers! Not a problem. :p

Ok. I couldn't do that even if the follower was on beat. Sure, the follow can help me find the beat. But once I start doing moves and routines I need to feel it on my own.

[Sagitta]

Ok. I couldn't do that even if the follower was on beat. Sure, the follow can help me find the beat. But once I start doing moves and routines I need to feel it on my own.It's all about the connection. ;) If one is connected than it isn't a problem. And see I don't do routines and patterns...that's helps too. :-)

[Angel HI]

Ok. I couldn't do that even if the follower was on beat. Sure, the follow can help me find the beat. But once I start doing moves and routines I need to feel it on my own.

In much of BR and especially in AT, at the upper levels, we share, that is to say, exchange lead often.

[Ogreking]

In much of BR and especially in AT, at the upper levels, we share, that is to say, exchange lead often.

I guess AT = Argentine Tango? What's BR?

I've only danced for about a year and a half, and almost exclusively salsa, so I wouldn't know much about other dances. I'm starting a Lindy Hop beginners course tomorrow though. Looking very much forward to it! =D

I have been playing different instruments and "musicating" (is that even a word, haha?) my whole life pretty much, so the music is a central part of the experience even when I dance. If I don't feel the music, I feel no joy when dancing. Not to say I won't let someone else lead me sometimes. It's fun to switch roles sometimes, hehe. Still, I need to feel the music, or I might as well just turn the music off and do some powerwalking or whatever.

[Angel HI]

I guess AT = Argentine Tango? What's BR?

Still, I need to feel the music, or I might as well just turn the music off and do some powerwalking or whatever.

BR = Ballroom. It's good that you are coming to dance. So often, we laugh that musicians are our worst students. They don't understand that dancers, and rightly so, read/hear/interpret music differently than musicians.

Want an interesting exercise? Try going to a solitary place, closing the eyes, and dancing to an emotion or feeling rather than a song.

[Ogreking]

BR = Ballroom. It's good that you are coming to dance. So often, we laugh that musicians are our worst students. They don't understand that dancers, and rightly so, read/hear/interpret music differently than musicians.

Want an interesting exercise? Try going to a solitary place, closing the eyes, and dancing to an emotion or feeling rather than a song.

Hehe, dancing is a passionate hobby. I study music in college.

I'm sure you're right musicians hear it differently than dancers. Moving to an emotion or feeling I can do. Musicians don't lack feelings! Music is one way to express oneself ;) But I can't ignore what I hear when I go out dancing.

[Angel HI]

Understood. I wouldn't call myself a musician, yet I do have a grand whose little legs come to life and run every time I sit to play it. Perhaps, as I danced first, I understand the playing of notes --but dancing between them thing. Musicians often seem to struggle with this. Glad you understand it, as well.

[Don Silver]

Thats what my instructor kept telling me; find the down beat. But my issue is that the music is usually too fast with numerous percussions. Its hard for me to lock in on the down beat.

I need to first focus on a default percussion instrument before I can lock in on the down beat.

One of the issues is salsa tends to be "dense" in terms of the rhythm section (percussion, piano & bass). Combined with horns and vocals, the density only increases.

There are many instruments playing at once, and it can take some time to learn to pick out each of the sounds played by each of the musicians. That's a learned skill.

With practice, you can follow the piano, bass or one of the percussionists. Once you can follow them individually, it's easier to hear them inside the mix of instruments. (It still takes some practice, but until you know the sound of each, it's tougher to hear them when they are all together.)

As mentioned earlier, Sweavo's salsamerlizer is a great tool for hearing some of the rhythm section:
http://www.oldyorksalsa.com/apps/salsamerlizer/

As for music, an excellent tune for hearing many of the instruments is on this YouTube video (I can't remember the Spanish title, but it's called "The Salsa Never Stops" in English.)

Here's a YouTube with the song:
http://www.youtube.com/v/a4_pjN40Kxs

I reference it in the following article along with links where you can purchase the tune (99 cents or less) and you should burn a CD with this tune or put it on your MP3 player, and listen to the introduction about 100 times or more. You'll be amazed how clear things become after you've heard something like this over and over for a couple months.
http://www.unlikelysalsero.com/2007/06/my-favorite-tunes-part-1-of-367.html

The YouTube is good but you really want to download your own copy because the sound quality of the video is just OK. You want to hear the tune on the best possible sound system because it's easier to hear the details.

Note that most of the time I start my private students with simplier music. If you can't find one in most commercial music, I'd submit you'll almost never find it in salsa.

Few new dancers start by attempting triple spins, extended shines or fast, complex turn patterns. They start with basic, learn a CBL and then grow into more complex movements/body control after working on some foundational moves. This same principle should be applied to learning music; start simple and build.

The density of salsa music gives it the rich sound we all find so attractive, but it also makes it tougher to learn about the individual instruments because there are so many of them.

To repeat: Part of the process is training your ears to hear different instruments, and you can do that in your car with hip-hop, R & B, class rock, spanish rock, etc. When you can hear different instruments, it's dramatically easier to hear the timing because each instrument has a place in the mix, that relates to the time.

PLUG ALERT: Behind the scenes I'm working on a music fundamentals series that will start sometime next week. After the written series matures, I will follow it with YouTube clips to provide context for the articles. If I didn't work for a living it would already be done... But it's a time consuming work of love for me. (I've played drums for over 30 years now...)

My final thought is you are already well along the way. Once you realize the timing is important, and you want to hear it, you'll find a path to get you there. I never worry about the guys who say they can't hear it, they will always find it over time because they realize they are missing something.

It's the ones that "don't know they don't know" are who I find interesting. They think they know the time, but often they are simply ignorant and dance with great confidence but totally outside the music.

Keep asking questions, there are a large set of very impressive people on this board and their combined wisdom will provide a wealth of information for you.

[squirrel]

The song is called "La Salsa Nunca Se Acaba"

[Don Silver]

The song is called "La Salsa Nunca Se Acaba"

THANKS! That is exactly right.

The video clip starts around 4 eight counts (AKA "4 bars") into the tune, where the vocalist is announcing the bongo player. I love the tune for learning because it's a great tune, and after the clave, each instrument is introduced and added to the mix every two bars (2 eight counts). Most instruments start on 1 when they enter on this tune (except the bass player who gracefully enters avoiding the one) and it's an excellent tune to hear over and over, especially the introduction.

I'm sure there are others, but this is one of the best salsa tunes for hearing the instruments. Again, while the clip is OK, you really want your own copy burned to CD and/or a MP3 player, and listen to it on the best quality system possible. You want to hear the details as each new instrument as it's added to the mix. You notice these same instruments in a wide range of salsa tunes.

Let me know how it works for you (and again, with so many great people here, ask questions if something is unclear).