Overly aggressive dancers

[danceguy]

I had an interesting experience last time I went out dancing that I wanted to share. I got to watch a guy dance who had some of the most incredible dance skills I've seen to date, but there was something about his particular style that didn't appeal to me.

The way he danced was so aggresive...he would spin himself and his partner and blinding speed and he was also a huge guy (250+ pounds), so anyone near him had to watch close to avoid getting bulldozed out of the way.

I heard one his partners say "hey you're leading me too fast through something I don't know" but he didn't slow down in the least. Instead of two people moving as one, it was like watching a guy lead a lady like she was a marionette. The lady was getting whirled, spun and even dipped (to the point that she was horizontal with the floor and mostly laying on it!) at such speed that I was glad to see she was still in one piece after the dance!

I'm curious to ask the other Salsa folks if this type of dancing is a common occurance in the clubs you frequent, as I've never seen anyone dance like that before. If Salsa is truly part of the ritual of love and in essence a form of forplay, it made me wonder by watching this guy dance how tended to treat women. To put it mildly, in my eyes it looked like he saw them only as a piece of flesh to satisfy his tremendous ego, nothing more.

Maybe I'm being too critical as this just not my thing, but I love to watch very smooth and sensual dancers. The crazy stuff just doesn't do much for me, save to remind me I never want to dance like that. :wink:

Best,

SG

[MadamSamba]

Scorpionguy, I think every dancer has a similar tale...I've been thinking lots about the same topic since a few weeks back when I danced with a fabulous dancer whose lead was so aggressive I acutally had a cut and a bruise on my hands after dancing salsa with him.

He's an absolute gentleman and it's rare to get a dance with him, but I've never had someone lead me so hard that his fingernails penetrated my skin!!! And, frankly, the dance looked so good (him, not me, I just followed), that it was worth a couple of drops of blood (ha ha!).

I usually find that guys who lead agressively with no concern for their partner are only dancing by themselves anyway...they're dancing to show off THEIR own dancing skills, not their skills as a dancer who can dance smoothly with another person.

Having said that, I don't think the chap I mentioned is falls into this category. He doesn't do it maliciously, but is such a strong dancer and has such a strong lead he doesn't realise how forceful he is. I'll tell him nicely next time and I know he's good-natured enough to accept it gracefully and do something about it.

[peachexploration]

....... To put it mildly, in my eyes it looked like he saw them only as a piece of flesh to satisfy his tremendous ego, nothing more....

You're right SG. This is all about his ego. Unfortunately, I see this all the time and makes me more reluctant about going out dancing in my area. :?

[salsachinita]

Aggrasive dancers....? Sure. Too many these days :roll: .

A lot of these people are still relatively new (3-5 years?), and very keen to test their skills for tricks & speeds. I find that given time, some of them do mellow out & finally able to enjoy the sensuality/foreplay side of salsa.

I think dancers can be like wines.......we matured with time/environment/experiences, that turn us from sour grapes into drops from heaven 8) .

[SDsalsaguy]

Yeah, been there and saw that too... :lol:

Seriously, there is one word, and one word only, to describe such antics: EGO! :evil:

Personally I just don't get it. I mean seriously, I am dancing with a woman, not some piece of organic dance appartus! Also, for me dancing is about the connection (see here for more on this (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2247)), which is entirely antithetical to such machismo driven posturing...

[MadamSamba]

Oh, organic dance apparatus...I like that SD!!! If I ever change my nick it will be ODA :)

[Sagitta]

Yeah, been there and saw that too... :lol:

Seriously, there is one word, and one word only, to describe such antics: EGO! :evil:

Personally I just don't get it. I mean seriously, I am dancing with a woman, not some piece of organic dance appartus! Also, for me dancing is about the connection (see here for more on this (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2247)), which is entirely antithetical to such machismo driven posturing...

Ditto about the type of connection I like. No aggressive dancing/connection. Feather-touch...connecting with someone precious... :D

[borikensalsero]

I know this one guy, he is about 210Lbs solid muscle, he truly is a beast. He is an all right salsero, however, he doesn't know his own strength. He literally abuses the ladies on the dance floor. We are good friends so I have more of a leeway to bother him about his dancing skills.

One night I decided to show him what the difference between his and my dancing was, we were to ask the same girl to dance and see what her expressions were when dancing with each other. I asked a girl with big bushy hair, the kind that a little humidity turns into a forest. Well, after I was done dancing with her I went over to him and asked what did you see. He said she smiled a lot and was flirtatious. How is her hair, I asked. He said the same. Well, then it was his turn. After it was over, I asked him to look at her. What do you see, he look at me and said what do you mean.

I was like, dude, look at her hair, it looks like it was attacked by a gang of chickens looking for corn in a hay stack. You are too forceful. Look at her, her dress was all messed up, she was heavily breathing, and above all took a 2 song break after his dance. All he could say was that she didn’t know how to follow and why she looked as she did. That I’m too soft on her and why she didn’t get messed up like she did with him. But that she can’t follow, I proceeded to ask him if it didn’t have anything to do with his off-beatness and he said. “My timing is solid”… Boy, I’m still scratching my head.

Sometimes guys really don’t know that they are doing something. There is no blinder man than he who refuses to see.

[borikensalsero]

Ok, enough on the guys… How about forcefull ladies,

Friday night I was dancing with this little, little lady, she couldn’t have been taller than 5 feet. My God, was she wild. I mean, I honestly compared her to trying to get a hold of 5 feet long bluefish with your bare hands. She was as wild as I have ever seen a technically sound dancer be. Through out the entire dance I felt like I was trying to hold a blender gone mad. My hands still shake from Friday night.

She threw her body everywhere, her dancing by no means matched the tempo of the song, and her moves were nowhere near smooth. And since I am not one of those guys who chooses to control the girl on the dance floor to show how great his lead is that he can tame a wild pony. I took a step back and said, go wild baby! I relaxed my lead and allowed her to go nuts. She was about 18 years old, so I’m hoping age had a lot to do with her eagerness to dance. God, how can such a little thing be so wild?

[peachexploration]

I was like, dude, look at her hair, it looks like it was attacked by a gang of chickens looking corn in a hay stack. You are too forceful. Look at her, her dress was all messed up, she was heavily breathing, and above all took a 2 song break after his dance. All he could say was that she didn’t know how to follow and why she looked as she did. That I’m too soft on her and why she didn’t get messed up like she did with him. But that she can’t follow, I proceeded to ask him if it didn’t have anything to do with his off-beatness and he said. “My timing is solid”… Boy, I’m still scratching my head.

Sometimes guys really don’t know that they are doing something. There is no blinder man than he who refuses to see.

ROTFL. Oh my! :lol: :lol: I can't believe he couldn't see what you were trying to show him. Really funny though. :)

[peachexploration]

Ok, enough on the guys… How about forcefull ladies,

Friday night I was dancing with this little, little lady, she couldn’t have been taller than 5 feet. My God, was she wild. I mean, I honestly compared her to trying to get a hold of 5 feet long bluefish with your bare hands. She was as wild as I have ever seen a technically sound dancer be. Through out the entire dance I felt like I was trying to hold a blender gone mad. My hands still shake from Friday night.

She threw her body everywhere, her dancing by no means matched the tempo of the song, and her moves were nowhere near smooth. And since I am not one of those guys who chooses to control the girl on the dance floor to show how great his lead is that he can tame a wild pony. I took a step back and said, go wild baby! I relaxed my lead and allowed her to go nuts. She was about 18 years old, so I’m hoping age had a lot to do with her eagerness to dance. God, how can such a little thing be so wild?

Oh Gee! You poor thing! :D :D Well, I guess it doesn't matter what size you are. :D

[borikensalsero]

I was like, dude, look at her hair, it looks like it was attacked by a gang of chickens looking corn in a hay stack. You are too forceful. Look at her, her dress was all messed up, she was heavily breathing, and above all took a 2 song break after his dance. All he could say was that she didn’t know how to follow and why she looked as she did. That I’m too soft on her and why she didn’t get messed up like she did with him. But that she can’t follow, I proceeded to ask him if it didn’t have anything to do with his off-beatness and he said. “My timing is solid”… Boy, I’m still scratching my head.

Sometimes guys really don’t know that they are doing something. There is no blinder man than he who refuses to see.

ROTFL. Oh my! :lol: :lol: I can't believe he couldn't see what you were trying to show him. Really funny though. :)

He refuses to believe that a bad dance has anything to do with him. He always blames the lady. He was gotten 100% better though, there was a time when I would leave with out him to the clubs just not to be embarrassed by the whiplash causing x-bodies he possessed. I hated when ladies would come up to me and asked what was wrong with my boy. I would always apologize for him and say that he doesn’t know his strength but that he is getting better, which he is, but still not where it should be.

He is a very machista guy. He was brought up in a household where the man is the man and the woman his servant. It is what the man says and anything the lady says is taken into consideration as long as it is the same thing the man says. At least he moved to the US when he was young enough to see that life really isn’t about what he says. However much he sees it, he still can’t live outside of that thinking, even in his dance.

[borikensalsero]

Here is my question to this entire aggressive debacle. When you speak to these people they actually speak of salsa as sexy, sensual, like making love. But crap, what I wonder what kind of lovemaking they are talking about? I still don’t understand how they can say that salsa is so sexy when their dancing isn’t. I ask my friend, and he truly speaks like if he was in love with the music, yet when he dances, its more like he is taking his frustration outs on the lady. Now how does that equal to lovemaking? I try to understand, but I don’t. I hear him speak, he is passionate, but when he dances, there isn’t any passion there, there is just him, an attack on the girl, and the thought that dancing despite result is sexy… Hmmm, I refuse to believe that his definition of love and sexy is that much different than mine.

[peachexploration]

Here is my question to this entire aggressive debacle. When you speak to these people they actually speak of salsa as sexy, sensual, like making love. But crap, what I wonder what kind of lovemaking they are talking about? I still don’t understand how they can say that salsa is so sexy when their dancing isn’t. I ask my friend, and he truly speaks like if he was in love with the music, yet when he dances, its more like he is taking his frustration outs on the lady. Now how does that equal to lovemaking? I try to understand, but I don’t. I hear him speak, he is passionate, but when he dances, there isn’t any passion there, there is just him, an attack on the girl, and the thought that dancing despite result is sexy… Hmmm, I refuse to believe that his definition of love and sexy is that much different than mine.

Well, in my area, all I've seen is the machismo aspect of it. It's not really about dance at all. Sure, they may love Salsa but when on the dance floor (which for some people, is their area of control), they become this "I am King of the Universe" person. In this area, they do it in class as well as in the clubs. The sad part is, the instructors encourage it. I remember my first day of class was spent telling guys off and explaining what real Salsa is supposed to be and then I refused to dance with them. :evil: some people just don't get it. Sorry, don't mean to be negative. Just a sore subject with me. :cry: Maybe lovemaking means hitting the woman over the head with a club like in the old days. :twisted:

[borikensalsero]

I remember my first day of class was spent telling guys off and explaining what real Salsa is supposed to be and then I refused to dance with them. :evil: some people just don't get it. Sorry, sore subject with me. :cry:

lol :lol: :lol: ... Its good that you told them thought... At least you are planting a seed. Even if it hurt their egos, it is best to find out now before they build a lack luster philosphy of salsa dancing.

I don't think that there is an uglier dance than when the lady becomes an after thought. The other day, we were joking with this dude, who tried to spin a million times and almost fell, we told him he needed more practice. He pointed to us and said watch, for the rest of the song, he murdered the lady. The poor girl looked like she wanted no part of the egotistical display of proving the off balance spins were a mess-up. I felt so bad, I said to the guy standing next to me, looked what we have caused, we shouldn't have said a thing. Now he has to prove, why he is thought of as one of NY City's "cream of the crop" dancers. We all knew he was good, that is why jokingly said he needed practice... But after that display I lost all respect I had for him as a dancer.

[danceguy]

A thought here Boriken, thinking back to the guy I saw the other night, I remembered something else. After a song was over, he didn't ask the lady if she wanted to dance another, he just keep on dancing with her until he felt he was done (like 5 songs).

In regards to Salsa being the act of lovemaking...this wasn't it. What it looked like was...well...rape to be totally honest.

"Love making" is about the joining of two people...be it for just physical pleasure or more of an emotional/heart centered connection. It can be the worst experience in life, or one of the greatest. And even if two people are joined physically, they can literally be on different planets, minds and soul far far away from the act itself (I speak from experience here, sadly).

You learn a lot about how someone would make love when you dance with them...that's why I greatly enjoy a smooth Salsera who is gentle yet powerful, and takes her time to make it an enjoyable experience for both of us. :wink:

Yikes, now I'm blushing...in fact I feel like I could cry...in a good way though. :P

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I was like, dude, look at her hair, it looks like it was attacked by a gang of chickens looking for corn in a hay stack. You are too forceful. Look at her, her dress was all messed up, she was heavily breathing, and above all took a 2 song break after his dance.

LOL!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I believe that after someone has mastered a dance their personality is unveiled. If you have a natural aggressive personality or a tremendous ego, it’ll show on the dance floor.

You can hide your personality from someone during an afternoon; however, if you spent an entire week with that person, you’ll ultimately reveal who you are.

I agree with SG, you can learn a lot from people by how they dance.

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Friday night I was dancing with this little, little lady, she couldn’t have been taller than 5 feet. My God, was she wild.

She threw her body everywhere, her dancing by no means matched the tempo of the song, and her moves were nowhere near smooth. And since I am not one of those guys who chooses to control the girl on the dance floor to show how great his lead is that he can tame a wild pony. I took a step back and said, go wild baby!

Boriken, I read and reread your post several times. Each time I laughed more than the previous time. :lol:

I had a similar experience with a girl except that she was a little taller and a little chubbier.

After some time, I’m not sure who was leading and who was following, the only thing I could see was a wild Tasmanian Devil in front of me doing her thing. I got lost in the haze of the wild hour. :shock: :shock: My choice of moves was according to her need at the moment. I’d read her face. She’d tell me, "I’m going to do a triple spin now, be prepared". Sure, no problem. 8) I think the wild beast enjoyed herself. Well, I’m glad one of us did.

Afterwards, I started thinking. I wonder how she is in bed. :wink: She’d probably chew me to pieces, spit me out and stick a toothpick in her mouth. Hmm…

[peachexploration]

I had a similar experience with a girl except that she was a little taller and a little chubbier.

After some time, I’m not sure who was leading and who was following, the only thing I could see was a wild Tasmanian Devil in front of me doing her thing. I got lost in the haze of the wild hour. :shock: :shock: My choice of moves was according to her need at the moment. I’d read her face. She’d tell me, "I’m going to do a triple spin now, be prepared". Sure, no problem. 8) I think the wild beast enjoyed herself. Well, I’m glad one of us did.

Afterwards, I started thinking. I wonder how she is in bed. :wink: She’d probably chew me to pieces, spit me out and stick a toothpick in her mouth. Hmm…

:lol: :lol: Oh geez! Not the Tasmanian Devil with a toothpick. You guys are hilarious! ROTFL :lol:

[danceguy]

Mapleleaf,

Great story, I can certainly relate. 8)

I danced with one of those "demons" when I was first learning to dance. I was at a Ballroom venue and was partnered with what I thought was a sweet and kind lady until a Salsa came on...and then her true nature was unleashed and all I could do was hang on for dear life! :shock:

It was obvious she had spent a lot of time in clubs, but she was doing the wildest, craziest moves and I felt like I had been engulfed by a tornado. Oddly enough, she forced me to lead her through some multiple spins and other moves that I never thought I could do...but when I tried to actually lead her on my own, she was having none of that! :lol:

It was fun for one dance, but after a few more I had certainly had enough and polietly excuse myself to go check my body for damage. I'm quite sure she was a demon in more ways that one...but I didn't feel inclined to find out. :oops: :P :oops:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Oddly enough, she forced me to lead her through some multiple spins and other moves that I never thought I could do...but when I tried to actually lead her on my own, she was having none of that! :lol::

Don´t you just love it when that happens? :wink:


It was fun for one dance, but after a few more I had certainly had enough and polietly excuse myself to go check my body for damage.

LOL!! Did you check for emotional damage?

Anyway, I´ve learnt to never fight against a tornado. Just go on for the ride and wait till it subsides. Eventually it does die down, I think... :wink:

[Sagitta]

I'll be a demon, but then it is only to match the person whom I'm dancing with. I don't like that at all, anymore, personally.

[borikensalsero]

Boriken, I read and reread your post several times. Each time I laughed more than the previous time. :lol:

I had a similar experience with a girl except that she was a little taller and a little chubbier.

After some time, I’m not sure who was leading and who was following, the only thing I could see was a wild Tasmanian Devil in front of me doing her thing. I got lost in the haze of the wild hour. :shock: :shock: My choice of moves was according to her need at the moment. I’d read her face. She’d tell me, "I’m going to do a triple spin now, be prepared". Sure, no problem. 8) I think the wild beast enjoyed herself. Well, I’m glad one of us did.

Afterwards, I started thinking. I wonder how she is in bed. :wink: She’d probably chew me to pieces, spit me out and stick a toothpick in her mouth. Hmm…

lol.. :lol: :lol: :lol: I guess you are lucky she wasn't trying to hook up with you...
Ahhh, I always think the same thing, if you are this beastly while dancing I really don't want any part of intimacy with you.

It feels horrible when I’m asking for something and the girl busts out 5 things of her own yanking my fingers along the way. There was this one time where I actually had to chase the girl in a circle because she held my hand so tight while spinning. I thought she was going to pull my shoulder out of socket. It was the funniest thing, I said, DAMN, I gotta catch up… and had to run a circle around her, back to the front before she had a chance to pull my shoulder off. What the #$@% was that! Ever since, I’ve acquired this great skill of pulling my fingers off the tightest of grips. My thumb has gotten quite strong from pushing death-grips away from my fingers. I think it looks horrible to have a thumb wrestling competition when dancing but hey, I rather look bad than lose a few fingers.

The worst dance I ever had was with one of my friends “girls”. She was taller than me, much taller; she was about 6’4’’. She said, I love the way you move, I want to dance with you, but I must warn you. I like to lead; I love to do my own thing she, strongly said. Say what???? I was the one with the hair all messed up running the other way, doing the moonwalk, hoping to get away from this lady. I felt that a polar bear had a hold of me and wanted to eat me. Talk about being scared… I truly felt like a Chihuahua running away with his chalupa, being chased by a wolverine. Sadly enough, I couldn’t get away from her until a couple of songs later when they decided to play bachata. Thank God, I’d never been happier to hear a bachata. When I got back to the bar, my friend was red from laughter… That fool, I have to get him back..

[peachexploration]

You know, if anyone ever sees me dancing like any of the follows in this thread, please just shoot me and put me out of my misery. :lol:

I've gotta stop reading this thread, the people in my office think I'm on laughing gas. :D :D Boriken, Mapleleaf, SG and others....I am soooooo sorry! :cry: :D :D

[danceguy]

LOL!! Did you check for emotional damage?

Anyway, I´ve learnt to never fight against a tornado. Just go on for the ride and wait till it subsides. Eventually it does die down, I think..

Ha! As I recall, there wasn't any...I didn't find the lady attractive nor did I really like how she danced. I have suffered emotional damage watching from a woman I had a crush on dance wildly with some else though! :oops:

I dunno...some of those "man eater" types seem to get worse before they get better. As I recall I finally put the lady I mentioned through about 5 or 6 really fast spins and I think maybe she got the point...note the 'maybe.' :roll:

Perhaps we should start a new thread called "Chupacabra sightings on the Salsa dance floor." :shock: :P :shock:

Boriken - That must have been quite a night for you! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that has to guard against broken fingers! Thank God I've studied some MA, I had a lady almost elbow me in the face the other day, and I had to pull off a lightning fast evasion technique to avoid losing a few teeth. :?

Here's an idea...introduce that wild Salsera to one of the overly aggresive Salseros that we were talking about.

Now that might prove interesting. :wink:

[SDsalsaguy]

Here's an idea...introduce that wild Salsera to one of the overly aggresive Salseros that we were talking about.

Now that might prove interesting. :wink:
As long as I'm way far away from them or, better yet, not even on the same floor! :wink:

Might be fun to watch though...

Hey! :idea: I just figured out that we could turn this into a fund raiser to help get some of us DF salseros down to Australia! :D

OK, so here's what we're going to do: we'll round up all salseros and salseras we've been discussing, and then pair them up, Jack & Jill style. Then we'll start taking bets on each "couple" individually. Who's going to drive the other one off the floor first, him or her? After each round we'll repartner our litlle dance floor monsters until, at the last, we have a pairing of the truely horrific! I figure what with all the bets we'd be taking on this "tournament of salsa terror" we should make enough $ to hop down under... and in style at that! :twisted:

[salsachinita]

Hey! :idea: I just figured out that we could turn this into a fund raiser to help get some of us DF salseros down to Australia! :D

OK, so here's what we're going to do: we'll round up all salseros and salseras we've been discussing, and then pair them up, Jack & Jill style. Then we'll start taking bets on each "couple" individually. Who's going to drive the other one off the floor first, him or her? After each round we'll repartner our litlle dance floor monsters until, at the last, we have a pairing of the truely horrific! I figure what with all the bets we'd be taking on this "tournament of salsa terror" we should make enough $ to hop down under... and in style at that! :twisted:

:lol: :lol: :lol: ! Please go ahead, SD! If you actually make a video recording of it, you might even get more $$ selling them on the net (so you guys can get here sooner)!

[brujo]

Hey! :idea: I just figured out that we could turn this into a fund raiser to help get some of us DF salseros down to Australia! :D

OK, so here's what we're going to do: we'll round up all salseros and salseras we've been discussing, and then pair them up, Jack & Jill style. Then we'll start taking bets on each "couple" individually. Who's going to drive the other one off the floor first, him or her? After each round we'll repartner our litlle dance floor monsters until, at the last, we have a pairing of the truely horrific! I figure what with all the bets we'd be taking on this "tournament of salsa terror" we should make enough $ to hop down under... and in style at that! :twisted:

:lol: :lol: :lol: ! Please go ahead, SD! If you actually make a video recording of it, you might even get more $$ selling them on the net (so you guys can get here sooner)!

Like bumfights (http://www.bumfights.com) , but con clave!

[SDsalsaguy]

Now that I like, "bumfights con clave" it is! They made millions marketing those too, huh?

Well OK then, maybe I won't have to resort to nefarious means to get down there after all! :D

[tsb]

sadly, it's not limited to salsa; there's a guy who frequents the derby in hollywood. he's built like a linebacker, probably about 6'3" 230 lbs. and he'll pick up and dip her parallel to the floor with no warning. i try to warn my friends anout him but that doesn't necessarily help; one time i watched him approach a girl, and despite getting turned down repeatedly, lift her off the floor and try to carry her onto the floor. i was so hoping that she'd kick him in the groin.

[danceguy]

Hey! I just figured out that we could turn this into a fund raiser to help get some of us DF salseros down to Australia!

OK, so here's what we're going to do: we'll round up all salseros and salseras we've been discussing, and then pair them up, Jack & Jill style. Then we'll start taking bets on each "couple" individually. Who's going to drive the other one off the floor first, him or her? After each round we'll repartner our litlle dance floor monsters until, at the last, we have a pairing of the truely horrific! I figure what with all the bets we'd be taking on this "tournament of salsa terror" we should make enough $ to hop down under... and in style at that!

SD, this is a great idea! And besides the Jack & Jills, there could also be an open comp for the most destructive dance pair!

Now, instead of Bronze, Silver and Gold levels, there could be the following divisions:

1. Bailarín Borracho
2. Cocaína Que fuma Del Bailarín
3. Bailarín poseído por el Diablo

And the grand prize could be some dance lessons so they learn how to not to injure people while dancing. 8)

This is genius! :P

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

You know, if anyone ever sees me dancing like any of the follows in this thread, please just shoot me and put me out of my misery. :lol:


Hi Peachexploration!

From what I´ve read from your posts, you could never become one of these girls (thank God). :D

We´re talking about a certain species of women who are hyperactive, eccentric, out of control and who blow up a storm (or tornado as SG put it) while on the dance floor. Fortunately it is a rare species and evenly distributed over the 5 continents. I only know two women who are like this and avoid dancing with them with all my strength. :wink:

[peachexploration]

Hi Peachexploration!

From what I´ve read from your posts, you could never become one of these girls (thank God). :D ......


:oops: :oops: Thanks MLS. :D

[peachexploration]

I needed a laugh today. This thread certainly did it for me. Too funny! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

SD, do you have a date for the "tournament of salsa terror" yet? I want to place my bets. :wink: Hmm... don´t want a front seat ticket though, I´d prefer to be as far away from the gladiators as possible... :roll: We can put SG in the front seat, he knows karate and can defend himself if necessary... :wink:

[salsachinita]

Hey! I just figured out that we could turn this into a fund raiser to help get some of us DF salseros down to Australia!

OK, so here's what we're going to do: we'll round up all salseros and salseras we've been discussing, and then pair them up, Jack & Jill style. Then we'll start taking bets on each "couple" individually. Who's going to drive the other one off the floor first, him or her? After each round we'll repartner our litlle dance floor monsters until, at the last, we have a pairing of the truely horrific! I figure what with all the bets we'd be taking on this "tournament of salsa terror" we should make enough $ to hop down under... and in style at that!

SD, this is a great idea! And besides the Jack & Jills, there could also be an open comp for the most destructive dance pair!

Now, instead of Bronze, Silver and Gold levels, there could be the following divisions:

1. Bailarín Borracho
2. Cocaína Que fuma Del Bailarín
3. Bailarín poseído por el Diablo

And the grand prize could be some dance lessons so they learn how to not to injure people while dancing. 8)

This is genius! :P

Yep. We need this for 'the plan'....!

Date, anyone :wink: ?

[TemptressToo]

I danced with a supposive 'trained dance instructor' the other night at swing that was so rough...he busted my thumb. I bite my nails and they bleed fairly easily...however, he didn't need to hold me that tightly...I follow well. He apparently was being a total technician and not really relaxing and enjoying the dance.

I felt beat up afterwards...

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I danced with a supposive 'trained dance instructor' the other night at swing that was so rough...he busted my thumb.

You mean he´s trained in busting thumbs? :shock:

[redhead]

This thread is way funny!
I actually have a friend who loves wild followers! I should mention he's 6'3, solid muscles... Anyway, I prefer elegant dancing, but sometimes a little devil gets into me and I agree to dance with this friend of mine. That feels like wrestling. Hmm, I just love the compliments he gave me yesterday - first was "I love your hair", and second... "I can tell you've been working out". :lol:

[SDsalsaguy]

MLS & salsachinita, no, no date has been set yet... I've been to busy to find a backer to sponsor the event. If either of you (or anyone else) has any leads however... :lol:

[sadie]

Sometimes people tell me my lead is too strong, but others will tell me it's nice to be led by somebody who knows what they want. I certainly don't think i'm an aggressive leader as you've all described - and i'm not especially large or strong - but apparently, they didn't think they were too aggressive either. So tell me - how do i know if i'm being too forceful?

[borikensalsero]

Sometimes people tell me my lead is too strong, but others will tell me it's nice to be led by somebody who knows what they want. I certainly don't think i'm an aggressive leader as you've all described - and i'm not especially large or strong - but apparently, they didn't think they were too aggressive either. So tell me - how do i know if i'm being too forceful?

Welcome welcome welcome to Dance Forums. Happy to have you aboard. :D :D

Look at her eyes. The eyes and the mouth usually tell everything. If you are being too forceful her eyes will be open big, her mouth tight, or a frozen smile. She will also look like she is playing catch up. Ask a friend to tell you what she looks like when you guys dance. Her facial expressions as well as her body mannerism. If he thinks she looks tense, and she an intermidiate/advanced dancer then your lead might be too strong.

If that doesn't do it, then try leading her as soft as possible yet having her do exactly what you want. If you find yourself being a lot softer on her than you usually are, it probably means that you were being a bit too forceful. With beginners you usually have to make them do things, hence, they really like a bit stronger lead, however, stronger doesn't mean forceful. Always think of how to get exactly what you want using the least amount of necessary force. At times you need more force, at others very minimal.

And last, ask all the girls you dance with. Beginners, intermediate, and advanced. See what they all say, you should be adjusting to all of them, and if at the end of the night you see that one group thinks you are forceful while others don't, then your lead just isn't adjusting from girl to girl and basically you are forcing the girls to adjust to you, instead of just allowing them to settle down in your lead. It is kind of hard to really tell without watching you dance, best bet is to ask someone who you feel is in a position to tell you for sure.

[Tasek]

Doesn't sound like your an agressive leader.

What your asking though is one of the more difficult things of leading, knowing what is required for a particular follow; simply put you should lead with the exact minimal force required for the follower to understand what you mean and do what you intended. However that's a whole lot easier said than done, how much force is required can vary wildly depending on the follower's background, preference, experience, even the particular feel of a song.

One of the things you'll often hear mentioned with regard to is a concept called frame, this means that as you hold each other there should be a certain amount of tension in your arms so, with the follow matching the leads given tension, and the lead choosing the tension just right; not too soft so it's clear what he wants, and not too strong as that will be uncomfortable or even painful for the follow. If you have a proper frame you'll be connected to each other, though you're both keeping your own balance and posture you should be able to slightly lean into each other, and through that tension you can communicate what you want to do, without that tension (the infamous 'spaghetti arms') the lead can't lead, and the follow can't tell what's going on.
Also keep in mind that leading should come from the body, not the arms, the lead will shift his body(weight), the resulting force is transmitted through the arms and the resulting impulse should put the follow in the right direction, whether it's movement or rotation wise.

Hope this makes sense, (and if anyone spots any errors, please correct me), in a practical sense; practice, practice, practice, and whenever you dance with a new follow start simple and soft, if she doesn't do what you had intended, provided you're leading in the proper direction, up the force until she gets the message, if she does something different but does do something you'll have to change the lead (direction, timing) rather then the force. And then as you get attuned to a certain follow you can slowly try and lower the force again, trying to get a close to that cutoff point where you're as smooth as possible while still communication your intentions properly. And keep in mind that this is a lifelong endeavour, you'll never be perfect for all follows at all times.

[Tasek]

Almost forgot, welcome to DF.

And i'll second what boriken said, focus on your partner, try to read them, see how they're doing.

[etchuck]

Sometimes people tell me my lead is too strong, but others will tell me it's nice to be led by somebody who knows what they want. I certainly don't think i'm an aggressive leader as you've all described - and i'm not especially large or strong - but apparently, they didn't think they were too aggressive either. So tell me - how do i know if i'm being too forceful?

The fact that you're asking and concerned tells me that you're not aggressive. Most aggressive dancers (so I can observe) don't care if they're leading too forcefully or not. But strong leading does not mean you're aggressive because your follower may be inexperienced and cannot understand what you want her to do without a forceful lead. I agree that if you are incapable of adjusting your lead based on how well your follower understands what you want her (him?) to do, then you might be an aggressive dancer.

Also, if you're proud in auditing the number of shoulder sockets you've popped, you might be an aggressive dancer.

[dragon3085]

SG when were you here in San Antonio at Arjon's nightclub? I mean you just describe one of their regulars. A guy who has literally scared some of his partners half to death. I think sometimes dancers can get a little to self indulgent, hey its great if you into the much and all that that, but for the length of the dance you have a certain responsibilty to your partner. That goes for lady's too. Remember you can see behind us.

[africana]

wow :lol: :lol: :lol:
thanks for the great great laughs!! I was pretty close to rolling on the floor from boriken/SG's stories :lol:

I actually danced with this "advanced" lead a couple weeks ago who was EXTRA aggressive and rough. but since he was about the same height as me (5"10) and much heavier I couldn't slow him down by resisting, and I got soo tired from being thrown around that I commented to him "this dance feels like a fight", and he goes "yeah, a love fight" :shock: and he just continued the same, it felt awful
I haven't noticed him being so rough before, so I'm thinking other intentions/forces where at work that night :?

[squirrel]

:) I have a student (he'a also a friend)... he is one rough leader! I mean, he's 1.80m tall and weighs about 100 kg. He's also trained to fight, as he works for the special troops.

Now, when dancing with him, it's like a roller-coaster! :) But he takes greatr care of the lady... after spinning her wildly he immediately catches her! :)

Lately his lead softened a bit, but if a fast song comes... :shock: :shock:

Everybody told him he is too rough and he still doesn't believe it! His usual line is "You haven't seen rough!"... :) He is probably unaware of his own strenght!

[Rosa]

There's a fine line between a 'strong' lead and a 'rough' lead. I'd say a lead is too rough when it causes the follower physical discomfort or pain.

But the whole thing is subjective. I like a strong lead, but I know other women who prefer a more gentle lead.

So, it's understandable that if a guy is dancing with a woman for the first time, his lead might not match up to her expectations of what a lead should be.

BUT, if both partners are used to dancing together (in a club or perhaps they're partners or in class together) then there's no excuse for a man leading so roughly as to hurt a woman.

Rosa :)

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Now, when dancing with him, it's like a roller-coaster! :) But he takes greatr care of the lady... after spinning her wildly he immediately catches her! :)

You mean after spinning her wildly till she flies into a wall, he catches her on the way down? :shock:

[leftfeetnyc]

He is probably unaware of his own strenght!

I think many men are very unaware of how strong they actually are. Not quite dance related, but a friend of mine who has more than just friendly feelings for me recently got annoyed that I said I wasn't going to a particular dance. My reasoning was that I hadn't had a weekend to myself in such a long time that I needed to unwind. He jokingly pinched me on the arm and then told me to quit bing such a wimp when I told him it hurt.

Way to my heart buddy! I'm a tiny girl and now have this huge black and blue on my arm. I know it wasn't intentional, but guys need to be aware that girls just aren't built like men and can't always physically handly that kind of touch.

[Ms_Sunlight]

Some girls can handle it, some girls can't. Whether it's acceptable to use with any girl is another matter entirely.

I try to be a lady but any man who won't treat me like one might just find out how unladylike I can be.

On this subject, I was at salsa class last night (Cuban style) and we were learning a wee sequence of moves, as you do. This guy missed his timing to lead me into a reverse arm turn and tried to force me into it too late. I had to practically wrestle with him. Hello! I can't turn that way when I'm on the other foot! What's wrong with just waiting a bar and trying again? :evil:

[tsb]

He is probably unaware of his own strenght!

I think many men are very unaware of how strong they actually are. Not quite dance related, but a friend of mine who has more than just friendly feelings for me recently got annoyed that I said I wasn't going to a particular dance. My reasoning was that I hadn't had a weekend to myself in such a long time that I needed to unwind. He jokingly pinched me on the arm and then told me to quit bing such a wimp when I told him it hurt.

Way to my heart buddy! I'm a tiny girl and now have this huge black and blue on my arm. I know it wasn't intentional, but guys need to be aware that girls just aren't built like men and can't always physically handly that kind of touch.

i wouldn't be so sure that it's innocent, but i hope i'm wrong for your sake. anyone who doesn't accept that their actions can make someone uncomfortable are a big flashing red light in my book. if he tries that again, kick him in the groin and tell him not to be such a wimp if he dares to complain.

[Sabor]

if u need 'strength' to dance .. then take me out of consideration .. i strongly dislike force .. i can understand relatively firm tho.. yet it has nothing to do with strength..
altho i could go thru a wall if i need to.. but thats a totally different matter.. A VERY VITAL ASPECT of dance is tuning your physical energy to execute water smooth motion .. it is integral for the lead/follow to reach 'floatation status' .. as i'm sure the smooth dancers would agree after experiencing it.. as u advance u should get better at it.. but if u dont pay attention to it and just hack it out .. maybe wrestling is the way to go..

sorry, but i just cringe when i see force taking effect and i dont think its as much to do with being a beginner or advanced (altho they improve on it for sure) dancer, but more of a natural sense and sensuality of perception that any dance-interested party should posses or be taught first off along with etiquette..

but again, just my opinion

[Twilight_Elena]

I know some teachers (ballroom, mind you) who are extra forceful because they're used to beginners and have to lead them around. But I can't say much about strictly salsa dancers, as the only one I know is my salsa teacher and he's an amazingly soft and yet very stable lead.

Twilight Elena

[peachexploration]

Oh my! This thread still cracks me up to no end. Too funny! :lol: :lol:
Word to the wise: Avoid 5ft Blue Fish, Tasmania Devils with toothpicks, blenders and friends with 6'4 girlfriends who like to lead!

[tacad]

:eyebrow:

[peachexploration]

And the raised eyebrow is for?

[tacad]

Avoid 5ft Blue Fish, Tasmania Devils with toothpicks, blenders and friends with 6'4 girlfriends who like to lead!
:wink: Just kidding.

[luh]

I had an interesting experience last time I went out dancing that I wanted to share. I got to watch a guy dance who had some of the most incredible dance skills I've seen to date, but there was something about his particular style that didn't appeal to me.

The way he danced was so aggresive...he would spin himself and his partner and blinding speed and he was also a huge guy (250+ pounds), so anyone near him had to watch close to avoid getting bulldozed out of the way.

I heard one his partners say "hey you're leading me too fast through something I don't know" but he didn't slow down in the least. Instead of two people moving as one, it was like watching a guy lead a lady like she was a marionette. The lady was getting whirled, spun and even dipped (to the point that she was horizontal with the floor and mostly laying on it!) at such speed that I was glad to see she was still in one piece after the dance!

I'm curious to ask the other Salsa folks if this type of dancing is a common occurance in the clubs you frequent, as I've never seen anyone dance like that before. If Salsa is truly part of the ritual of love and in essence a form of forplay, it made me wonder by watching this guy dance how tended to treat women. To put it mildly, in my eyes it looked like he saw them only as a piece of flesh to satisfy his tremendous ego, nothing more.

Maybe I'm being too critical as this just not my thing, but I love to watch very smooth and sensual dancers. The crazy stuff just doesn't do much for me, save to remind me I never want to dance like that. :wink:

Best,

SG

well, wouldn't be good if this is normal.
dancing is about having a relationship on the dancefloor, this guy obviously did not understand that.
luh

[chandra]

I danced with a guy a while ago, who obviously wanted me to be a tornado. I was a newbie follow (still am :d) And he wasnt dancing any dance id ever heard of before. I dont have a problem with that if the guy has any patience, and this was a simple rythem so I was doing fine. At first. Once the guy realized Id gotten his style of dance down, He fully grabbed my hand by the wrist (not that nice genlte way some leads do) and proceeded to plant himself and spin me in a circle around him for the rest of the dance. When he was done, he said "you spin fast, that was awesome". I said thanks and collapsed out of breath on the floor near my friends. They gave me water and sympathizing looks. I vote him to be in the contest too!

[luh]

I danced with a guy a while ago, who obviously wanted me to be a tornado. I was a newbie follow (still am :d) And he wasnt dancing any dance id ever heard of before. I dont have a problem with that if the guy has any patience, and this was a simple rythem so I was doing fine. At first. Once the guy realized Id gotten his style of dance down, He fully grabbed my hand by the wrist (not that nice genlte way some leads do) and proceeded to plant himself and spin me in a circle around him for the rest of the dance. When he was done, he said "you spin fast, that was awesome". I said thanks and collapsed out of breath on the floor near my friends. They gave me water and sympathizing looks. I vote him to be in the contest too!

sometimes i'm glad I'm a leader not a follower.
luh

[peachexploration]

Avoid 5ft Blue Fish, Tasmania Devils with toothpicks, blenders and friends with 6'4 girlfriends who like to lead!
:wink: Just kidding.

Oh, gotcha. :D

[Ms_Sunlight]

Oh heck. You know, I wonder how many leaders blithely go about doing obnoxious things on the dancefloor because followers just never tell them.

[chandra]

Last night i was dancing LH with a guy who was throwing me around, and After a couple of swingouts, I said "I cant do that Im sorry, Im going to fall down" He shrugged, and grabbed another ther partner.
I have completely crashed before whilst dancing, and Im not going to risk it again.

[Sabor]

i think salseros and salseras should mud wrestle :x

[peachexploration]

ROTF LMAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sabor, who's establishing the lead role in your signature? :wink: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh my gosh! That has to be the funniest wedding cake topper that I've ever seen! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sabor]

LOL!.. yeah just a quick reminder for the guys who are interested/like to 'follow'.. u see what happens when women lead?! :shock:

[Sagitta]

i think salseros and salseras should mud wrestle :x

I prefer jello or chocolate pudding wrestling, thank you very much.

[Sagitta]

LOL!.. yeah just a quick reminder for the guys who are interested/like to 'follow'.. u see what happens when women lead?! :shock: Not turned me away yet. You got to try harder sabor. :wink: :lol:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I danced with a salsera the other day. She has been dancing for a while but for some reason has never taken classes. Anyway, the other day she grasped my hands during the dance as if she was falling from a 10 story building. :roll: This really bothered me. I have told her time and again not to do that but she never learns... I never ask her to dance anymore, unfortunately she is always asking me. :shock:

[cornutt]

I danced with a supposive 'trained dance instructor' the other night at swing that was so rough...

Funny you should mention it... a follower that I see every now and then, and she is a trained instructor, is an incredibly physical follower. She will "take off" unless physically restrained by the leader. The first time I did an East Coast Swing with her, she rocked back so hard into my right arm that she spun me around the opposite way! I'm pretty strong, so now that the initial shock has worn off, I can dance with her and I do actually enjoy her dancing. However, it causes me to pick up bad habits. After a dance with her, I have to be careful not to "muscle up" on other partners.

[chandra]

lol, maybe its from dancing with all the newbies who wont go where you tell them to :twisted:
(jk)

[Sagitta]

lol, maybe its from dancing with all the newbies who wont go where you tell them to :twisted:
(jk) :lol: