ballroom salsa?

[nycsalsero]

I'm looking for a video of high-level ballroom dancers dancing salsa. Does anyone know where to find one?

This is to settle an argument with a friend who disagrees with my contention that high-level ballroom dancers, being much more trained, will dance salsa better than any untrained street salsa dancer.

[Some Day]

How about this? It has some pro ballroom couples doing salsa (before Mario Lopez and Eva Longoria come out, that is ;) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNL8-jMJZrk

[quixotedlm]

That's performance. Social dancing anyone?

I really don't think high level ballroom dancers can wing high level salsa dancing that's not choreographed( ie, social dancing). It's certainly possible that someone is both because they've worked to be good at both...

[delamusica]

Most high level ballroom dancers I know don't social dance much, salsa or otherwise.

Unfortunate, I think.

Of course, I never really play music for fun anymore, so I guess I understand.

[syncopationator]

Just show them any mambo video from rhythm comp.

[anp73ga31]

well for me, the deal is this: of course trained dancers generally have a better "look", however, ballroom dancers can practice 12 or more dances while salsa/mambo dancers are practicing, well mostly, just 1. So of course if a salsa/mambo person dances salsa/mambo for 5 hours straight every weekend and sometimes more, as salsa folks are wont to do, of course if naturally talented, they may be able to look better than a ballroom dancer who has sooo much more on their plate and maybe only devotes 1/12 of their time to salsa/mambo. However, technically, I dont know that the salsa dancer would be better. I guess it would all depend on the ballroom dancer and the salsa/mambo dancer. Interesting...

[tangotime]

better not post that comment on the salsa forums site -- they will hunt you down !! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

You might as well compare Social Samba to the way they dance in Brazil-- or several other " latin " dances .Technique-- yes-- that where it ends in comparison.

The main problem that latinos have, with the ballroom " world ", is their insistance , that they have advanced and improved, their indigenous dances== they sure did -- beyond recognition!!!!!

I choose to teach and dance " street " style salsa/ mambo ( theres a whole other topic )

What one sees in a ballroom performance, is a sanitised version of its " parent " .

If you had seen some of the "oldies " dance--Cuban Pete , Mambo Aces, Steve Peck etc., you would readily agree , that would be your choice of style-- to dance with " sabor " .

The one observation, that was made about Pro,s not going out to clubs-- very, very true ( I happen to be the total opposite, latin clubs 5/6 nites a week for many yrs )

Someone on another site, posted info ( all critically incorrect ) about the rise of Salsa /Mambo, in the states .

These comments invariably come from people who have never--1, been to the states 2--- have not ever been inside a latino club !!

[Nik]

I go to Salsa clubs very often and there are much better salsa dancers than me there. Its much more on feeling and not all about hip action and this other mumbo jumbo. Unless the ballroom couple made up a salsa ruitine to dance at the club, then I think the freestyling salsa dancer will shool them out there.

Now after a couple drinks, you stop thinking about the technique part and start to really go at it, then it might be a competition. But, thats a whole other conversation.

[GJB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfOtAkm8YBQ

[tangotime]

Nik-- what has amazed me for all my yrs spent in latino clubs, is the amount of " raw " talent that pervades most clubs .

I often wondered what would happen, if they took that sabor, and trained in the b/room world -- then I got to thinkin-- someone would eventually " beat it " out of them !! :rolleyes:

[Nik]

Its like what Alan Tornsberg always sais, Its all about the music and partnering. Ballroom dancers often forget that because they have so much information on how to move their body and make it look right.

You take a somewhat experienced ballroom dancer, erase all that technique info piled up in their head that blocks out everything else, make them dance on feeling and rhythm, and boom, you got yourself a great salsa dancer.

[tuftufwang]

Its like what Alan Tornsberg always sais, Its all about the music and partnering. Ballroom dancers often forget that because they have so much information on how to move their body and make it look right.



If only I could practice those words of wisdom from Tornsberg in competitions. But then I'll always be thinking about what the judges are looking for instead and often forget that I'm "dancing". And when I do feel it and start dancing for real, I don't think I'd get all the right technique down!! AAAHHH!!! :confused:

[tangotime]

If only I could practice those words of wisdom from Tornsberg in competitions. But then I'll always be thinking about what the judges are looking for instead and often forget that I'm "dancing". And when I do feel it and start dancing for real, I don't think I'd get all the right technique down!! AAAHHH!!! :confused:


Apropo to what you said- The late Bob Medeiros , was dancing at B/Pool-- it was at that time, a televised heat--Peggy Spencer-- her comments " Just look at that boys Cuban motion "-- need less to say-- not enought judges did !!

[SDsalsaguy]

Apropo to what you said- The late Bob Medeiros , was dancing at B/Pool-- it was at that time, a televised heat-- her comments " Just look at that boys Cuban motion "-- need less to say-- not enought judges did !!
Who's the "her" tangotime?

[Sagitta]

I'm looking for a video of high-level ballroom dancers dancing salsa. Does anyone know where to find one?

This is to settle an argument with a friend who disagrees with my contention that high-level ballroom dancers, being much more trained, will dance salsa better than any untrained street salsa dancer.I agree with your friend. What you are suggesting si blasphemy. It is like saying lets compare argentine and ballroom tango. YOu cannot compare the two to say that one way is better than the other. each has it's purpose. Now if you are saying that both ballroom and street salsa have the same purpose and sow e can compare the two then that is a different story. I'll be happy to discuss that point first. Let's not compare street and ballroom please. Two different animals. I don't think that one can really compare two dance styles which have different basic criteria as you are suggesting.

[delamusica]

Sagitta -

I OP was looking for a video of a high-level ballroom dancer doing street salsa. Comparing the dancers from different backgrounds doing the same dance style.

Is this right, nycsalsero?

[Sagitta]

better not post that comment on the salsa forums site -- they will hunt you down !! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

You might as well compare Social Samba to the way they dance in Brazil-- or several other " latin " dances .

Well I lurk everywhere and if a person wants to start comparing street to another style they better know what they are talking about. Fighting words...I know. I actually learnt salsa from a club and ballroom social tecaher. I also have gone to some hardcore ballroom teachers. Lastly I have learnt by feeling the music and moving to it. The last method has transformed my dancing. While ballroom and other instructors might facilitate some technique to make it easier there is nothing to be said for paying attention to your partner, feeling the muisc, and moving to it. Nothing! I am way beyond -not even a shadow of my class training. That "ballroom/class experience" gave me nothing compared to what the music and paying attention to connection has given and is still giving.

I've taken a follower who does not know a step, who does not really partner dance and given her a heavenly experience and made her addicted to salsa. After I danced with her I saw some other fools go and I know they went to dance with her as they saw what she did with me. I talked to one and asked him about her and he said she doesn't know salsa. I asked him why you went and asked her and he said I saw how she danced with you. This I got from the music and connection to my partner. To dance from the heart..from the soul...to be one with the music with the partner be part of the musical trinity. That's what it means to be street to me. Technique is nothing if there isn't a connection where partners are listening to each other and that is why ballroom should not be compared to street.

As for ballroom, since it is being compared...I detest the erect posture...the over quick responsiveness and tendancy to overreact to my lightest lead. Because that is what you learn to do in ballroom doesn't mean that is correct. Listen to the music! If the music does not call for fast moves and I suggest slow do it please. Not to say that there aren't great ballroom dancers who dance well because they listen to the connection, as I have danced with a few, but ballroom doesn't teach that in a way that I see it being practiced.

Oversimplistic...I know...but, the two styles come from different routes..street from soul and ballroom from technique. My comparison is meant to highlight this difference in origin. If you like technique go and do ballroom. If you want to start with soul do street.

[Sagitta]

Sagitta -

I OP was looking for a video of a high-level ballroom dancer doing street salsa. Comparing the dancers from different backgrounds doing the same dance style.

Is this right, nycsalsero?

Now that should be interesting. And what are we looking for as criteria?

I suggest:
1. connection with partner where one sees them responding to each other.

Since we are expecting to compare high level dancers I will assume that technique is a given and both will have a nice repertoire of moves that they can throw out in a song.

[tangotime]

I've taken a follower who does not know a step, who does not really partner dance and given her a heavenly experience and made her addicted to salsa.



You MADE her addicted ? Ya know, in all my near sixty yrs of teaching , I dont think I have ever MADE anyone, do anything , in dance, that they were not already inclined towards .--- Assisted ,yes-- encouraged , yes , forced-- Never !!

[tangotime]

.

Oversimplistic...I know...but, the two styles come from different routes..street from soul and ballroom from technique. My comparison is meant to highlight this difference in origin. If you like technique go and do ballroom. If you want to start with soul do street.




Do you really believe " street " has NO technique ?--

Ive been dancing and teaching street for longer than you care to know-- There is not a dance performed in ANY genre, that does not require SOME form of technique .
How could anyone instruct any individual, without giving them the basic concepts of lead and follow ?-- not to mention the numerous other aspects of partnership.
Do you not consider music as part of that learning ?== its the most " technical " part of the whole purpose !--

I "teach " Cuban style " Son "-- do you again, think that can be just lead ?

The problem with your premise, is that the majority of " teachers " in Salsa , have no idea what the differences are , between the several varying styles of music, ( Cumbia, Guaganco, Guajida, Charanga, etc ,) and how one should factor them into a practical situation .

Virtually, every move you dance, came from another genre-- the "trick ", if there is one-- is to translate it into a " street " style edition----.have been doing it for yrs !!

I hear this complaint ,continuosly, from people who go to congresses -- the lack of " teaching " and the " Monkey see, Monkey do " type of explanation(?)

And as much as you seem to dislike the B/room style,( and thats ok. ) , you make assumptions , that are incorrect .

I teach both styles of " Latin "-- and yet-- they are worlds apart in style .

The majority of my latino compadres ( many whom I used to teach ) have little or no knowledge of my Ballroom background-- now do you think they came to me, because I dance that style ??

[Musique]

Nik, too bad I never met you in latin club when I was in your area.

Does this discussion depend on the lead/follow role? It's very humble of Nik to say there are lots of better salsa dancers than him. I can imagine there might be a few better salsa leaders. But seriously, if Natasha, or Olga or Polina ever go salsa dancing, I can't imagine at all any ladies in salsa clubs dance better than them. Not a chance.


I go to Salsa clubs very often and there are much better salsa dancers than me there. Its much more on feeling and not all about hip action and this other mumbo jumbo. Unless the ballroom couple made up a salsa ruitine to dance at the club, then I think the freestyling salsa dancer will shool them out there.

Now after a couple drinks, you stop thinking about the technique part and start to really go at it, then it might be a competition. But, thats a whole other conversation.

[tangotime]

Nik, too bad I never met you in latin club when I was in your area.

Does this discussion depend on the lead/follow role? It's very humble of Nik to say there are lots of better salsa dancers than him. I can imagine there might be a few better salsa leaders. But seriously, if Natasha, or Olga or Polina ever go salsa dancing, I can't imagine at all any ladies in salsa clubs dance better than them. Not a chance.



Its really not about who is better --- not about the traditional lead and follow, but about the interplay that happens during a given dance/ song-- more about " sabor " a look ,a feeling, that words cannot really express-- the most intangible, indefinable characteristic-- and yet-- it sticks out, like the proverbial thumb !!

I, in the past, have danced with several" champion " lady " ballroom " types. friends and colleagues-- for whatever the reasons may be-- they NEVER feel the same as my P.R. and or latino salseras ( neither do they look the same, in a social setting .

[Musique]

Its really not about who is better --- not about the traditional lead and follow, but about the interplay that happens during a given dance/ song-- more about " sabor " a look ,a feeling, that words cannot really express-- the most intangible, indefinable characteristic-- and yet-- it sticks out, like the proverbial thumb !!

I, in the past, have danced with several" champion " lady " ballroom " types. friends and colleagues-- for whatever the reasons may be-- they NEVER feel the same as my P.R. and or latino salseras ( neither do they look the same, in a social setting .

Then this is all becoming "indefinable". (:
But I thought this discussion is about can ballroom dancers dance salsa as good as or better than street dancers.
Being a china salsera, I guess there's little chance that I can be as good as P.R. or Dominic salseras - even before we start to move, they'd look to have much more sabor than me.

[tangotime]

Its not really about being " as good " as or better than-- yes, maybe latinos do have that something, that they bring to the dance "table ". But is not that true, of many generic forms ?--

Emulation, is the sincerest form of flattery-- and that has always been my endeavor, in all the genres I dance and teach . My peers will always be the judge of that !

( p.s. -should add, that one of the all time " greats " was an Italian guy, from N.Y-- Steve Peck, and add Rocki Mari to that list )

[chica latina]

I think to compare and say better depends on what are you looking at.

I can imagina a ballroom trained dancer will say to a excellent salsero "extremely talented, musical, emotional but needs to work on his lines, frame, maybe posture".

A salsero looks at a great latin trained dancer and sees "fast, very smooth through transitions, very nice styling for ladies but too rigid, erect... not enough freedom. looks choreographed"

So it depends what you call best or ideal.. They are both amazing when done by the top dancers.

[Sagitta]

You MADE her addicted ? Ya know, in all my near sixty yrs of teaching , I dont think I have ever MADE anyone, do anything , in dance, that they were not already inclined towards .--- Assisted ,yes-- encouraged , yes , forced-- Never !!I gave her an experience which lead her in that direction. Afterwards...this was a while she told me that if it wasn't for me she didn't know if she would be enjoying herself that much. That she just never thought of herself as a partner dancer, or even capable of it. Did I force her...no! Was she there really liking what people were doing in dancing..yes. So she had the inclination, but never would have acted on it without my persistent encouragement. That's what I meant...

[Sagitta]

Its really not about who is better --- not about the traditional lead and follow, but about the interplay that happens during a given dance/ song-- more about " sabor " a look ,a feeling, that words cannot really express-- the most intangible, indefinable characteristic-- and yet-- it sticks out, like the proverbial thumb !!

I, in the past, have danced with several" champion " lady " ballroom " types. friends and colleagues-- for whatever the reasons may be-- they NEVER feel the same as my P.R. and or latino salseras ( neither do they look the same, in a social setting .

This is what I am talking about. Each style has certain characteristics. DOn't compare one to another. I admire all styles for what they bring and how they illustrate the music and partnership. They all have some good points and people choose a particular one beacuse they prefer one emphasis over another, or mix what they like from the different ones, but to compare la style/on1/on2/ET on2/power on2/cuban street/ballroom etc etc is all missing the point about dancing.

[biggestbox]

One mistake people make all the time is they forget that technique supports the movement. Not technique for technique's self. International Latin technique has been developed for speed, sharpness, strength, creating space. Ballet technique has been developed for balance, strength and tricks. Salsa technique (and yes there is a lot of technique) has been developed so the lead and follow can communicate perfectly, it is made to be cool and slick. Personally, I am a student of all three, and I think dancers who cut themselves off from another style are missing out.

In my opinion, salsa men are the biggest losers when they never take up a different style. There are some hip-hop dancers in salsa, but rarely are there classical dancers taking up salsa. Many women have had dance training giving the strong core and quick spotting that makes salsa turns so cool.

It is true that some dancers loose sight of dance when they become only technicians

Dance in the future are going to be technically stronger and stronger. There is no doubt about that. If you are truly a dancer, I challenge you to improve beyond your current level.

[Nik]

MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC. You must listen to the music, it is the key. Ballroom dancers have too much to worry about and too little time. Club dancers have nothing to worry about other than leading the lady and listening to the music. Their movements are sloppy, their feet just do as they please, but yet, the look is amazing and the girl spins around so many different ways sometimes I wonder how it is possible to lead that. But then I break it down, figure it out, and with time can reproduce that look.

What I can say is that if you take a trained ballroom dancer and make them learn a bunch of salsa moves and styling, then stick them in salsa clubs 3 nights a week, in a month that ballroom dancer will be able to outdance pretty much any latino freestyle salsa dancer.

[Musique]

MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC. You must listen to the music, it is the key. Ballroom dancers have too much to worry about and too little time. Club dancers have nothing to worry about other than leading the lady and listening to the music. Their movements are sloppy, their feet just do as they please, but yet, the look is amazing and the girl spins around so many different ways sometimes I wonder how it is possible to lead that. But then I break it down, figure it out, and with time can reproduce that look.

What I can say is that if you take a trained ballroom dancer and make them learn a bunch of salsa moves and styling, then stick them in salsa clubs 3 nights a week, in a month that ballroom dancer will be able to outdance pretty much any latino freestyle salsa dancer.

Agree with both points!

[tangotime]

MUSIC, MUSIC, MUSIC. You must listen to the music, it is the key. Ballroom dancers have too much to worry about and too little time. Club dancers have nothing to worry about other than leading the lady and listening to the music. Their movements are sloppy, their feet just do as they please, but yet, the look is amazing and the girl spins around so many different ways sometimes I wonder how it is possible to lead that. But then I break it down, figure it out, and with time can reproduce that look.

What I can say is that if you take a trained ballroom dancer and make them learn a bunch of salsa moves and styling, then stick them in salsa clubs 3 nights a week, in a month that ballroom dancer will be able to outdance pretty much any latino freestyle salsa dancer.


Nik-- the problem? -- most TEACHERS do not understand the music !!-- not only in salsa,butmany dances .

If I say " Call and Response ", to many of my Eng. colleagues ( also Amer. ) they havent a clue what the issue is .

I would disagree with the " any " club dancer statement .-- Could name several that would more than hold their own ( Frankie Martinez for one )

[IsaacAltman]

Salsa dancers have evolved over time. Now they are looking for more technique as they have pretty much exhausted everything else. Take a look at any major Salsa contest compared to only 5 years ago and you will see the difference including the costuming is looking more like Latin dancers in the Ballroom world than ever!