Learning International Style -- The Big Plunge

[pygmalion]

A year ago, I asked my then dance coach whether I should learn international style ballroom. He said there was no need, unless I'd be using it for competition. I wasn't competing at the time, and he was right. I had very little use for it socially, so I didn't bother.

Well, now things have changed, and I'm plunging headlong into the competition world. So now the question stands, not for me (I've already decided LOL :lol: ) but in general. Since most comps in the US have categories for both International and American styles, is there any advantage to, especially an American, amateur dancer learning International style?

Oh yeah, and while we're at it, what about International competitors? Is there any advantage to them learning American style?

[Sagitta]

I'll haphazard a reply and suggest that international is a little more challenging. :) I've done very little of both American and International, for waltz, rhumba, and tango. For all three I've found International to be a little more difficult.

[DancingMommy]

Well, if as an am, you want to compete at world's, you won't be dancing American style, LOL!

So, if your goal is to become a world class competitor and go to events like Blackpool, you'd HAVE to dance International Style.

[msc]

I prefer International myself, but many prefer American.

Try it out, see if you like it.

[pygmalion]

For Latin vs. rhythm, as a person trained in American style, the big challenge would be learning the stepping into a staight leg versus stepping a bent leg divide (as I understand it). OPh yeah, and learning a couple new dances -- jive and paso doble.

For smooth/standard, the biggest issue, IMHO, is getting comfortable with dancing in body contact inclosed position, which is the goal for American style, too. Right? :?

[msc]

Tip of the iceberg, on both counts, Jenn.

[pygmalion]

8) Yeah. I figured that. That's the story of my dance life. Get attracted by the tip, and then stymied by the iceberg. :oops: :lol: And you can bet I'll be back here, posting discoveries, every step of the way. :wink:

I figure I have to at least try the International style. I may not excel at it, or even like it, but, since my goal is to be a well-rounded dancer, I have to try it.

Interesting. I was reading an old issue of DanceBeat, where various judges were critiquing a top-level American rhythm competition. The assessment of several judges was that the performance they saw was like "sloppy International style" rather than excellent American style, and that American and International styles, particularly for a crossover dance like cha cha, are becoming more and more alike. Needless to say, my curiousity was piqued, since I had little idea of what they were talking about. So now the quest is to find out.

[Taita]

Some random thoughts....

(warning: long rambling post. Definitely skip if you are easily bored or disinterested)

Where to begin.....

I definitely agree with msc, definitely the very tip of the iceburg. As an amateur who is trained in both styles, I can only tell you there is tremendous benefit to learning International Style. Since taking the plunge, my dancing took a quantum leap in almost every aspect.

I find International style definitely more demanding because it requires better footwork, technique, and balance to do well. Coincidentally, these are all things that make for better dancing in general. These also happen to be be qualities that are highly desirable in a competition setting. Once I competed in American style on a last minute whim (another story for another time :wink: ) after having been about 2 years removed from American style. Despite my long break from American style coaching and lack of preparation (no choreography! :shock: ), we did quite well and placed very favorably against dedicated American style dancers! In hindsight, all I did was execute simple patterns with better technique and that was enough to do quite well.

Yes, International style is a separate category from American. Knowing International style is essential if you want to compete in International but I also believe that knowing international style will also make you a better American style dancer. From my experience watching Professionals, I notice that some of the very best American Style pros are also accomplished International style pros and the difference is quite noticeable on the dance floor.

To me, it was initially difficult to learn. While I was considered to be a decent american style dancer when I started, I struggled with International style. For months I simply couldn't get the feel for it. Retraining my body was initially frustrating. To make it worse, it was nearly impossible to practice in a social setting since the predominant social style is American. So, I readjusted my strategy and perservered in spite of these challenges.

By observing numerous talented International Style pros easily make the transition to American style, it would seem that to transition from International to American Style is easily done for someone who is well trained in International. Personal experience tells me it can be rather challenging to go from American to International style, but the rewards are well worth the effort.

After a year of study in International style, movements that were once difficult to pull off in American style were now easily comprehended and executed with ease. I found Rhythm to be much easier to do and people commented on how sharp I made it look. I really started to enjoy Smooth even more than before and it became really effortless with the added balance and technique you learn in international (some might say it became extra smooth 8) ).

As far as social dancing, I was initially concerned that International style would take away from my enjoyment of social dancing and make it more difficult to lead since the predominant social style is American. While I was now able to dance socially in both styles, opportunities to dance International style in a social setting were few and far between. Gradually over time, greater quality of movement that comes from practicing International style made leading easier and somehow made previously "unleadable" patterns easily lead. Social dancing became even more effortless and fun.

Warning: Once you take the plunge, you may never go back :wink:

Back to lurk mode...

[pygmalion]

This is not long and rambling. For me, it's totally on point, and actually helped me figure out some things, and re-set some goals.


For example, I was planning to do my ISTD exams for International this summer, along with my bronze "leader" exams. Wrong. I think it's going to take a lot longer than I thought.

Also, I believe completely what you say about International versus American. My coach was trained in International as a child. And truly, he's the best teacher I've ever had -- I think the difference is teaching approach and discipline. American style does appear to be more lax. Fortunately for me, with the coach I have, laxness will not be an issue. What a slave-driver! (And I love it! 8) )

[msc]

If you watch a world championship Int'l event, you'll see "Student Associate" moves scattered throughout all routines. Of course, the level of execution of those moves is unbelievable, but still, even the most basic of Int'l moves can be very, very challenging to perform at a high level.

[pygmalion]

I'm going to buy (or borrow) a couple of the world championship videos. All I have to date is US stuff which is good, but probably not what I'm looking for.

[Alpha]

Jenn:

You go, girl! I started with Int'l Latin so I can't say much about American style but I know that the sharpness, precision, speed, and clarity of Int'l style will help in any style of dance. I've even incorporated it into club style salsa dancing. Also, I really like Int'l because SAMBA IS SOOOOOO COOOOL!

Of course it does seem to be more difficult to find a less experienced partner in Int'l style to compete with (I've been taking privates for less than a year.)

So, don't lose heart when learning all of the technique stuff-- it seems to take forever to learn and one day you just get it. And you're like "I had no idea I could move like that!"

Also, if you are ever in Tampa, let me know and we'll dance Int'l style.

--Chris

[pygmalion]

:kissme: Thanks, alpha! I'll let you know how the internationl style project is coming. It probably will be a challenge to find a partner, but what the heck? It's not easy finding someone in American style, either. May as well hold out for what I really want.

[Sagitta]

Well...I really like international style rhumba more compared to American rhumba.

[DanceMentor]

International Standard is has always been close to my heart. I LOVE Quickstep It's my favorite dance right now.

I definitely agree with the concept that International can improve your American, especially when it comes to the smooth. I dance in contact in both styles, and this seems to be the norm. One thing cool about learning International is you can import virtually all of the steps into American style. You'll also find that most steps in American style that are danced in contact are perfectly fine to dance in International (except Bronze Foxtrot).

Trying to think back...some of the first things I learned in International after having danced American for a few years were...
- getting lower into the knees, which later resulted in much stronger use of my legs.
- getting more flight, and in general, being able to travel further in fewer steps (ex. I can dance a Waltz box step almost twice as far).
- A much better understanding of dance position
- Learning how to take steps that are long, slow and balanced. This is one of the greatest challenges that I still face today (case in point: Foxtrot)

For those of you that have never taken the time to learn International Standard, I hope you will give it a try. BTW, it's okay for Americans to dance International! :lol:

[delamusica]

I have to agree with everyone else, but I thought I'd throw my 2cents in anyway. :) International is definitely more demanding in technique - although I think that dancing American is definitely more fun socially (except that they don't do samba - if only they knew what they were missing!). Just a thought from a follow's point of view: I've only had training in Int. Standard and Latin, but find that in all social settings I can follow people leading American with no trouble. I suspect it has something to do with becoming more conscious of how you use your body and react to leads by refining technique, but I really don't know . . .

Point is, I guess, that if you learn Int it's easy to follow American, and (from what I've seen other people doing) it's next to impossible the other way around. So if anything, it should help your social following skills to learn int. once you get the hang of it.

All IMHO, as always. :)

[Sagitta]

That's interesting delamusica. How did you happen to start out with international, given that US is your location. Were you somewhere else when you started dancing? Do you find it easy to get international dance lessons where you are?

[delamusica]

I was 13 when I started dancing latin and ballroom with a small group of friends, and since there weren't any people our age dancing, we started training for competition right off the bat - there just wasn't anywhere "social" for us to be other than the studio as far as dancing since we weren't legal to get into any dance clubs. :) There are many, many independent studios in the US who teach from the ISTD or PDF International syllabi - I luckily had a coach who understood that learning the fundamental technique of International style dancing from the beginning would make everything else a lot easier later on.

[SDsalsaguy]

Sagitta, there are many, many studios and instructors, throughout the U.S., that are geared towards international style. American style is far from being as universal stateside as some might have you believe...

[Sagitta]

Now that's good to know. I'm not out of place liking international rhumba, then... :banana: :banana:

[Kitty]

The reason why people trained in international are generally better dancers than the ones who only trained in American is because those people were usually trained to compete: indeed, why would they learn international if all that needed for social dancing is American. And people trained to compete are dedicated dancers that practice a lot, thats why at the end they are better. Also going to competitions and seing other people at your level being better makes one practice harder.

If you compare bronse competitors they are same quality in both styles, while Open level competitors in international are generally better dancers than American Style open dancers. This happens because highest achievers often cross over into int. style.

[Kitty]

Point is, I guess, that if you learn Int it's easy to follow American, and (from what I've seen other people doing) it's next to impossible the other way around. So if anything, it should help your social following skills to learn int. once you get the hang of it.


When I only knew American, I could follow international with no trouble. Technique for Smooth and Standard is actually the same. The reason why many Int. dancers are better dancer than American style dancers is because larger fraction of Int. style dancers are competitors, while most American style dancers are only interested in steps.

[johnnywalker]

Some random thoughts....

I find International style definitely more demanding because it requires better footwork, technique, and balance to do well.

Knowing International style is essential if you want to compete in International but I also believe that knowing international style will also make you a better American style dancer.

To me, it was initially difficult to learn. While I was considered to be a decent american style dancer when I started, I struggled with International style. For months I simply couldn't get the feel for it. Retraining my body was initially frustrating.

After a year of study in International style, movements that were once difficult to pull off in American style were now easily comprehended and executed with ease. I found Rhythm to be much easier to do and people commented on how sharp I made it look.

Social dancing became even more effortless and fun.

Warning: Once you take the plunge, you may never go back :wink:



Great response Taita.
I'm certain there are others who have similar experiences or thoughts. I know I, for one, share your point of view. However, I still haven't taken the plunge in competing but am greatly enjoying International style more so than Social.
I suppose the social style is very well suited to the smaller and crowded dance floors in many of the clubs i've attended. With some of the International styles (particularly in Quickstep, Foxtrot and Waltz) there just isn't enough room to move.
Where possible, I sometimes mix both styles as I think both have something to offer; although my memory of some of the social steps seems to be fading

[D-spot]

This always baffles me. I was taught social ballroom in England and it was all International and it was easy. Then I came to Canada and was taught International Style with lots of technique and it was much harder. My dancing improved a great deal.

If you learn technique in either style then it will benefit all styles.
International is just as easy to learn as American (IMHO) it just depends on how it is taught, with a technical bias or a non-technical bias.
I initially teach non-technical just to get people moving on the floor.

No big plunge required.

Larinda mentioned that a technique bok for the AS will be prined soon. See how that changes things.
D-spot

[redhead]

I still think International requires more precision in moves. American came after International, like a more social form of dancing... right?

[Porfirio Landeros]

Hmmmm, people were dancing in America just as much as in Europe, so I don't think you can say American came after International. In fact, my original instructors here in the US had to show the English instructors the Latin dances because there was no International Latin syllabus back then (but there were step lists here ;)).

If you want to say who unified the style and wrote down all the steps and technique, I guess that would be the English, but they invented their own style at that point, while Americans were dancing one of their own all along.

[redhead]

Well my instructors told me that International was first ... Don't you agree that American is much more leadable socially though?

[Larinda McRaven]

Redhead, Yes, but only because the majority of people in a social setting have been learning American, not because American is easier to lead.

[jon]

Well my instructors told me that International was first ...

Your instructors are full of it. Ask them where the "International Style" dances were first created and danced, and by who. If they're honest the answers are not going to be (a) in Britain (possible exception for Quickstep) or (b) by the ISTD, Alex Moore, or anyone associated with them. Even the ISTD website acknowledges they adapted dance forms created elsewhere.

[mamboqueen]

Interesting stuff.

I, too, have spent a lot of time wondering if I should make the jump to International. My fears were (a) no one really does International at the social dances I go to and (b) fear of confusion. Someone please tell me you don't go back and forth between the two during one song.

I think I will wait until I feel proficient at the silver level smooth/rhytym before I make the switch. Does anyone think that's a bad idea, and if so, why?

Also; more people compete in International, right? So isn't there some advantage to sticking with American?


I have already taken lessons in Quickstep and Samba since they're *generally* only done in International. Love them both.

[Chris Stratton]

I actually think Smooth presents far, far more challenges than Standard. The more I learn about standard, the more I realize how many things still need to be improved in my smooth. Even in closed position, I've even seen figues that pre-champ international couples would struggle to dance cleanly listed with the silver level smooth material.

While it is true that social smooth can be easier to dance than social standard, to really dance smooth well you have to have extensive training either in standard, or in the exact same concepts under an american naming scheme. Because international technique has standardized naming, a body of documentation, and a large tradition of competition training, this is often the easiest context in which to learn those ideas. For some reason, while many american materials present long groupings as a single 'figure' international tends to be documented in terms of smaller 'building blocks' making it easier for students to understand and reshuffle the material. (Most of the people I've studied smooth with call anything that resmebles international by its international name for simplicity)

There are some things, like fluency with promenade and SQQ foxtrot timing, which may be more easily taught in the context of smooth. My own early training mixed styles and used whichever provided a better vehicle for learning concepts. As a result, I've tended to think of the (closed form) of the two foxtrots as essentially being different stylistic preferences within the same dance. Even though I'm now using international foxtrot in semi-social settings, if I get stuck I may still use a smooth figure that offers more manueverability, even with an international-only follower. Some of the classic silver smooth actions even show up in open international routines if they can connect something better than syllabus standard material could. And of course open smooth borrows freely from standard - even heel turns.

So I'd strongly encourage everyone to give international training a try, even if they really plan to concentrate on american. For guys I would not worry too much about 'contaminating' social or even competitive dance - it's pretty hard to accidentally lead a heel turn to an uncooperative partner, and in the unlikely event you drop in something from standard, it's probably on somebody's smooth syllabus anyway.

Girls do need to be attentive the slightly different feel of outside partner vs. inside partner versions of things - but again, neither style is completely consistent on that issue on its own, so nobody can really afford to ignore it.

[Warren J. Dew]

I find International style definitely more demanding because it requires better footwork, technique, and balance to do well.... Once I competed in American style on a last minute whim (another story for another time :wink: ) after having been about 2 years removed from American style. Despite my long break from American style coaching and lack of preparation (no choreography! :shock: ), we did quite well and placed very favorably against dedicated American style dancers! In hindsight, all I did was execute simple patterns with better technique and that was enough to do quite well.
But doesn't that just go to show that technique is just as important in competitive American style as in competitive International style?

[Sagitta]

Interesting stuff.

Someone please tell me you don't go back and forth between the two during one song.



For social dancing anything goes as long as it flows seamlessly.

[cl5814]

Interesting stuff.

I, too, have spent a lot of time wondering if I should make the jump to International. My fears were (a) no one really does International at the social dances I go to and (b) fear of confusion. Someone please tell me you don't go back and forth between the two during one song.
.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but wanted to make a comment.

Mamboqueen,

I am with you. I am still an AS bronze level dancer and i am contemplating the same issue regarding switching to IS. I have danced with a leader that switched between IS and AS quite frequenctly during the same song - he talked a lot during the song. It wasn't bad at all, actually rather smooth.
P.S. I have not had any IS lessons

[Chris Stratton]

A couple of thoughts from the 'family tree' to keep in mind:

Bronze AS waltz is fairly close to IS waltz in general, though the whisk & chasse may be unfamiliar to some AS dancers.

Bronze AS foxtrot is unique (actually it is adopted into IS as 'slow rhythm dancing' for potential use as an introductory form)

Silver AS foxtrot, Silver AS waltz, and generic IS foxtrot are today extremely similar dances. IS foxtrot requires a bit more accuracy, but the basic ideas of movement are the same. Basic silver (continuity) AS waltz & foxtrot often seem to be identical, except for the music.

AS & IS Tango differ in the idea of what constitutes a basic pattern, but the technique and many of the figures are now interchangeable.

Viennese waltz has the same core travelling steps in both styles, while AS adds a lot of barely moving and stationary actions.

[spatten]

As this thread touches on the differences betweent International and American, I just have a quick question for those better versed in American then myself.

Is there really anything be it technique or patterns from Standard that can't be done in Smooth? (Other than quickstep?)

I can't think of anything, so does that mean that one could say Standard is really a subset of Smooth?

Thanks,
Scott

Just a quick edt - I really am referring to open level dancing here - as I realize the IS syllabus would conflict with the nebulous AS syllabi.

[delamusica]

Well, Standard can't be a subset of Smooth because Standard came first. (at least, that's what I've been told). You could look at Smooth as being a version of Standard that is more oriented towards social dancing at the lower levels and open work at the higher levels than its more technically precise predecessor.

[cl5814]

Bronze AS waltz is fairly close to IS waltz in general, though the whisk & chasse may be unfamiliar to some AS dancers.


Thanks Chris for the reply. I had the understanding that AS and IS are too far apart and so i saw it as 2 different entities - like smooth and rhythm, 2 different things. In principle then, i should be able to apply(some) IS technique during AS dance, especially in something like Waltz which sounds to be the closest related dance. That gives me a lot more encouragement to try IS.

A follow up question. Would you think it is easier to learn IS waltz first (instead of foxtrot or any other standard dance ) for someone with AS background ? Most people seem to be think that IS foxtrot is rather difficult.

Jenn,
you started this thread originally, can you give us some update on the plunge - what has been your experience ?

[spatten]

cl5814

I would agree that Waltz is the best Standard dance to learn first. Learning the Natural and Reverse Turns (which are closed compared to open for Foxtrot) gives you a great basis of the alignments which are so critical to standard. Waltz is also easier to understand in terms of the sway and swing which are also foundations of Standard.

Quickstep can be tricky just because the timing is difficult. Tango doesn't have the swing/sway elements the other dances require.

On the other hand, I know a world famous coach who would recommend starting with Viennese Waltz. This idea would make sure you understand inside/outside of turn while not having to learn many patterns. This is perhaps a better idea for people whit no ballroom experience at all.

Scott

[Porfirio Landeros]

Well, Standard can't be a subset of Smooth because Standard came first. (at least, that's what I've been told).

Again with the Standard came first claims?!?!

Didn't you read Jon's and my posts earlier?

Even the ISTD website acknowledges they adapted dance forms created elsewhere.

American style was just "ballroom dancing" here in the states before the English wrote the steps and technique down and called it "Modern".

Believe me, I'm grateful that they did, but the International Style of dancing came from grabbing dances from other countries/cultures. If anything, it's the Last and Definitive Style, if you choose to be an IS groupie ;), but people were dancing archaic American Style long before the Standard syllabus was written, so Standard could not be "first".

[cl5814]

cl5814

On the other hand, I know a world famous coach who would recommend starting with Viennese Waltz. This idea would make sure you understand inside/outside of turn while not having to learn many patterns. This is perhaps a better idea for people whit no ballroom experience at all.

Scott

That would make me super happy since i like VW the most. Can't dance it yet, know some basic steps. It is definitely the most beautiful dance there is - ok, when done by professionals.

[Warren J. Dew]

Silver AS foxtrot, Silver AS waltz, and generic IS foxtrot are today extremely similar dances.
I would agree that the basic technique and flow of the dance are similar. For beginners, particularly ladies, the presence of frequent heel turns in International style may make it more challenging to get started.

Well, Standard can't be a subset of Smooth because Standard came first. (at least, that's what I've been told). You could look at Smooth as being a version of Standard that is more oriented towards social dancing at the lower levels and open work at the higher levels than its more technically precise predecessor.
Victor Silvester, an early British world champion, wrote a book called "Ballroom Dancing" that includes a chapter on the history of each dance. He indicates that most of the Standard dances were originally imported from America.

I would guess that what's now called Standard developed from codification of the dances imported from America, along development of a greater lead/follow asymmetry in the English style. The lady's heel turn in the first half of the reverse turn is a good example of this asymmetry; an American left turn is symmetric, with the parts reversed in the two halves.

[delamusica]

Again with the Standard came first claims?!?!

Didn't you read Jon's and my posts earlier?

Even the ISTD website acknowledges they adapted dance forms created elsewhere.

American style was just "ballroom dancing" here in the states before the English wrote the steps and technique down and called it "Modern".


Not that this argument really makes a difference . . . but still. Even though it was danced in the US, and then codified by the ISTD . . . wasn't the actual AS syllabus written after the IS syllabus?

And whichever of us is right, I think that the general perception that American style dancing is younger has more to do with rhythm than smooth, as the competitive world of AR has only become really standardized in the last ten years or so - until then they were still switching dances in and out and trying to decide on a standard technique . . . still, there are top rhythm dancers who are criticized for looking too "international" in their dancing, while the styles of only a few couples (Bob & Julia, for example) are used to define what it should be. (again, or so I've been led to understand)

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Is there a website link we can post that has a definitive history of the dances included? I know a book or two has been referenced in this thread. How about a web site? If I weren't so pooped, I'd google. Maybe in the AM. :?

[Warren J. Dew]

Even though it was danced in the US, and then codified by the ISTD . . . wasn't the actual AS syllabus written after the IS syllabus?
Well, there's more than one syllabus, even for International style (the IDTA uses a different syllabus than the ISTD does); there are a plethora for American style. Interesting question when Arthur Murray put together his first syllabus.

[rails]

Hmm. Is there a website link we can post that has a definitive history of the dances included? I know a book or two has been referenced in this thread. How about a web site?

I thought this page was interesting and relevant:

http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/am-intl-ballroom.html

[mamboqueen]

Somewhere in my house I have a good book on ballroom dancing that I got on ebay and thought would never use that goes into the history of the dances. Of course, I can't put my hands on it right now, but I do remember reading in it that the foxtrot was "invented" in America by a guy named "Fox". Here's something I found on the internet about him:

http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3foxtrt.htm

[pygmalion]

Thanks mamboqueen and rails. Any input would be greatly appreciated. One thing I've found, in my search of the web is that most of the histories substantially agree on 95% of what's said. The other 5% is anybody's guess. I'll give an example of a foxtrot history article which shall remain nameless. :roll: The article was interesting and informative, and throughout, agreed with everything I've read about foxtrot, so I assume it was correct. In the last sentence was a throwaway remark which stated that lindy and hustle were derived from foxtrot. :shock: Uh ... I don't think so. At least, not directly. I suspect the Black dancers in the Savoy Ballroom would have been very surprised to hear that they derived their dance from foxtrot. See what I mean? The histories are mostly correct, but every once in a while, anecdotal points get thrown in, some correct, some questionable. Long story short, I think I'll stick with article that have references cited, as you both have. Thanks. 8)

Hmm. Is there a website link we can post that has a definitive history of the dances included? I know a book or two has been referenced in this thread. How about a web site?

I thought this page was interesting and relevant:

http://www.eijkhout.net/rad/dance_specific/am-intl-ballroom.html

[Genesius Redux]

I think that the general perception that American style dancing is younger has more to do with rhythm than smooth, as the competitive world of AR has only become really standardized in the last ten years or so - until then they were still switching dances in and out and trying to decide on a standard technique.

Not to mention the perception of the US as a "new" country. And don't you find it interesting that the differences in the styles are described in terms like "American" and "International"? As though "American" means insular and provincial, when in fact today the US--for better or worse--is probably the most internationally connected country in the world?

One wonders what kind of ideological struggle may have underwritten the codification of these two styles.

[rails]

In the last sentence was a throwaway remark which stated that lindy and hustle were derived from foxtrot. :shock: Uh ... I don't think so. At least, not directly. I suspect the Black dancers in the Savoy Ballroom would have been very surprised to hear that they derived their dance from foxtrot.

I think I read the same history. If so, that sentence is qualified with "to some extent" which makes a little difference. I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me if foxtrot had some influence on lindy since none of the dances or dancers existed in a vacuum. For example, didn't Damon once say that Frankie Manning created a move that he derived from judo? The most common thinking (Frankie's too, I believe) is that lindy grew out of Charleston (with a little foxtrot and judo thrown in :wink:)

Anyway, tough to erect strict boundaries around dances, much as the IDTA & ISTD tried. My knowledge of dance history is not extensive so I was fascinated to discover how many kinds of waltzes and foxtrots there are in the world. I hadn't realized how far beyond the ballroom definitions they go.

[pygmalion]

True, Chris. Nothing exists or is developed in a vacuum, and lindy is no exception. I just didn't want to get too philosophical so early in the morning. LOL. :lol: :lol:

[etchuck]

cl5814

On the other hand, I know a world famous coach who would recommend starting with Viennese Waltz. This idea would make sure you understand inside/outside of turn while not having to learn many patterns. This is perhaps a better idea for people whit no ballroom experience at all.

Scott

That would make me super happy since i like VW the most. Can't dance it yet, know some basic steps. It is definitely the most beautiful dance there is - ok, when done by professionals.

I'd invite you down here in November (I think it will be the first weekend in 2004) for the Duke Viennese Ball then. ;)

Yeah, VW is my most comfortable dance partly because there are so few figures that you need to know to do it competently. In fact, "IS" VW only has 8 figures, while AS VW has so many more. I'm not so much a fan to learn AS VW, but I'm willing with the right partner.

I don't think I'd start with VW to teach people dancing, but it would be the first "specialty" ballroom dance I'd start teaching people who are more serious dancers. But if you get the technique down for VW's basic steps, you can dance with just about any professional out there. Or at least you can pretend you can. :)

[mamboqueen]

Funny thing about VW....you kind of have to know it *pretty* well to dance it socially with partners you aren't very familiar with. I haven't had many lessons in it thus far, and would pray the song be less than 2 minutes to make it through with what I know. I really do enjoy watching people who do it well do it, though. It can be quite dizzying!

On a slightly different topic, but I'll forget it by the time I make a thread about it, what dances do you find it hardest to follow when dancing with unfamiliar partners?

And for the men, what dances do you think it is hardest to lead with an unfamiliar parnter?

[pygmalion]

LOL. I'll start the new threads. I'm a moderator. That's what I'm supposed to do. You just enjoy. :D :lol: 8)

[mamboqueen]

Okay. I did it. Took the International plunge tonight. I had a private and did Rumba, Cha cha, a tiny bit of jive (basically just quickened our swing routine), and a little samba, which I kinda sorta knew a little. Very interesting stuff. I am guessing it will help with my American style, if I choose to stick with it. I will say that I can definitely tell that I used my calf, inner-thigh and butt muscles more during Rumba than any dance I've done. This is normal??

[cl5814]

Okay. I did it. Took the International plunge tonight. I had a private and did Rumba, Cha cha, a tiny bit of jive (basically just quickened our swing routine), and a little samba, which I kinda sorta knew a little. Very interesting stuff. I am guessing it will help with my American style, if I choose to stick with it. I will say that I can definitely tell that I used my calf, inner-thigh and butt muscles more during Rumba than any dance I've done. This is normal??

Rumba was also the first international dance that i learned in group class - luckily only 4 in class. I didn't feel the calf, inner-thigh thing. I guess you worked a lot more on technique. Our main issue was stepping on a straight leg with feet turned out when you step.
Wow ! 4 dances during a private lesson. That is a lot, i generally try to stick to 1 dance per lesson.

[mamboqueen]

I think he did spend a lot of time focusing on the technique; a lot of the steps were similar to American style. The timing is different (i.e., the count for the rumba was more like the American cha cha if I remember correctly). Jive was just speeding up the bronze swing routine. And I had taken some samba classes before, so I knew about 80% of the routine for that already. We didn't touch on paso; I'm a little leery of that because I had great disdain for the bronze paso I saw being done at the last comp I was at -- looked very boring.

As for the achy muscles....he was showing me technique in pretty slow motion. So, say in rumba, I had my left leg out in front, foot pointed outward and was just doing a basic forward walk, he had me really emphasize the bent knee with foot pointed as it passed underneath my body and stretching the other leg, if that makes sense. I'm not used to pointing my toes so much and my calves will always feel it. Definitely a workout!

Anyway, he did a pretty general run-through just to make sure I wanted to do International, so I'm sure it will be a constant re-hashing of everything over the next batch of lessons. I would generally do the group classes for this beginning stuff, but they're on a night I just can't make it.

Oh, and you know, I think that my american rythym was never really as "pure" as it should be; I didn't adhere to the constant bent knee as much as I should have. Something in between American and International, I guess.

[cl5814]

yes, mamboqueen, i get what you are saying. i am definitely on the testing grounds for latin, already decided that i want to do standard. that is why i started off with group class in latin.

[mamboqueen]

I don't tend to explain things well; I'm a visual creature for sure! I know people can pick up a dance book and do the steps, that's definitely not me!

Best of luck with the classes. Some day, when I win the lottery and buy the studio, I'll have the schedule of my dreams :)

[cl5814]

in most personality/IQ tests, i normally get the feedback of being a strong visual person, i am still with you. The combination of the video giving you the visual aspect along with the manual giving you the nitty gritty detail (at least i don't have to write down everything they say during video ) proved to be helpful to me. With the manual alone, it would most probably be hard, although i have the "hang" of the manual now and most probably could figure out a step just by reading the steps in manual.

[Sakura]

Note: I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I'm getting there! Just wanted to give my two cents. =^_~=

I *believe* I'm being taught in Int'l style only; although Jonah (teacher) did teach me some American Cha Cha and mentioned in brief some differences between Int'l and American Rhumba...

In peoples' experience here between Int'l and American, is it easier to learn Int'l first? From what I've read so far, this seems to be true, but are there benefits to learning one first over the other?

Sakura Kitty :kitty:

(PS- Welcome to DF Alpha! What part of Tampa? The actual city, or thereabout? My Nana and Granddaddy live in Cortez/Bradenton -- they're credited with getting me into dance. :D :D 8) I love Florida!! :banana:
...Much better than freezing, ol' Indiana... =-_-=... I need to go to the beach...)