Following weak lead?

[newdancer113]

I've been having some difficulty lately, and I don't know how to fix it. As my dancing has improved, I find it more difficult to dance with many leaders who aren't up to my level yet. Or even a few students who I've passed, and used to be able to dance with fine...lately I find their lead to be weak and difficult to follow. I have the same problem with many of the beginner students. I'd like to be able to dance with and have fun with everybody, but it's gotten to where I don't even enjoy dancing with weak leaders becuase I feel like it holds me back from practicing technique I'm working on, and keeps me repeating bad social habits.

I've heard that to be a good follower you should be able to follow any lead. So I think the problem has a lot to do with me.

Any suggestions on how I can improve this?

[croaker]

Heh, you sounded just like my partner... Until the "So I think the problem has a lot to do with me "
part :)

[rjcbear]

Any suggestions on how I can improve this?

Don't mean to sound ugly but maybe you need to read the follwing thread:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=3096


IHO social dancing is not a place to practice technique.

[wooh]

In general:
1) aim for his right shoulder
2) when in doubt, spin
3) don't try to guess, just go
It's gotten me through many a dance.

[DennisBeach]

I've been having some difficulty lately, and I don't know how to fix it. As my dancing has improved, I find it more difficult to dance with many leaders who aren't up to my level yet. Or even a few students who I've passed, and used to be able to dance with fine...lately I find their lead to be weak and difficult to follow. I have the same problem with many of the beginner students. I'd like to be able to dance with and have fun with everybody, but it's gotten to where I don't even enjoy dancing with weak leaders becuase I feel like it holds me back from practicing technique I'm working on, and keeps me repeating bad social habits.

I've heard that to be a good follower you should be able to follow any lead. So I think the problem has a lot to do with me.

Any suggestions on how I can improve this?

Based on social dancing for 6 years, this situation is not unique to you. A couple of the places we dance, the local teacher comes to the dances. When I see the teacher dance with their student. My reaction is, I didn't realize she could dance that well. It is difficult to to progress rapidly unless you practise and dance with someone learning the same moves and techniques as you or with the operson teaching you.

You should be able to follow any effective lead. Meaning the physical communication is clear and technique of the dance is being followed by both dancers, so it is possible to lead and follow effectively.

[croaker]

In general:
1) aim for his right shoulder
2) when in doubt, spin
3) don't try to guess, just go
It's gotten me through many a dance.
You carry a gun to the dances ???! :shock:

[etp777]

Remind me to avoid wooh. I like my shoulder without any holes. :)

[waltzgirl]

How long have you been dancing? I think this is a phase that you will pass through, when you get good enough to be adaptable in your dancing and not be thrown by the variability of leads in a social setting.

A different mindset might also help. While there are bits of technique you can always practice (your posture, activating your core, using your feet correctly, etc.) regardless of your partner, try not to think about social dancing as an opportunity to practice your own individual technique. Social dancing is about two strangers agreeing to work together, with whatever skills they both bring to the floor, to make a dance work as well *and* as pleasantly as possible for both people. That's a skill in itself, and that's the skill you should be focusing on in social dancing.

[evanluck]

Social dancing is about two strangers agreeing to work together, with whatever skills they both bring to the floor, to make a dance work as well *and* as pleasantly as possible for both people. That's a skill in itself, and that's the skill you should be focusing on in social dancing.

Very eloquently put :D

[fascination]

there was a point in time when I was past newb dancer and began pro/am...that I felt similarly...and then there became a time when my own dancing was expansive enough that other folk's weaknesses weren't viewed by me as an impediment to my own progress, but rather as an opportunity to take some responsibility for myself and focus upon what I could still do despite the partner...I think you will see that this will pass in time

[Joe]

Look, dancing is a conversation.

Some leaders mumble. Some leaders whisper, but carefully enunciate while doing so--and some followers are too deaf to hear it. Some leaders shout, but so loudly that what comes out is distorted and not understandable. Some leaders speak very clearly, but some followers don't have the vocabulary to understand everything.

[fascination]

great point joe

[samina]

agreed. beautifully put.

[DancinAnne]

there was a point in time when I was past newb dancer and began pro/am...that I felt similarly...and then there became a time when my own dancing was expansive enough that other folk's weaknesses weren't viewed by me as an impediment to my own progress, but rather as an opportunity to take some responsibility for myself and focus upon what I could still do despite the partner...I think you will see that this will pass in time

This has been my experience. I'll dance with just about anybody.

[croaker]

Look, dancing is a conversation.

Some leaders mumble. Some leaders whisper, but carefully enunciate while doing so--and some followers are too deaf to hear it. Some leaders shout, but so loudly that what comes out is distorted and not understandable. Some leaders speak very clearly, but some followers don't have the vocabulary to understand everything.
Well put.
I would also emphasize it's a conversation, not a monologue! It does require
some kind of an answer from the follow. :oops:

[biggestbox]

follows job to keep dancing, if she receives no signal from the guy it means to keep doing what she is doing. The man only provides the direction and has limited ability to change the timing. Many follows take the more social approach to lead and follow and are almost too responsive.

[delamusica]

How can the follower be too responsive?

[etp777]

That varies by dance I'd say, biggestbox. Something like WCS, sure, she can keep doing sugar push, or whatever, even if lead is standing there scratching himself. :) But with something like Rumba, or VW, it gets a bit more complex. That lead really has to be there, otherwise if she continues on with what she thinks is appropriate, trying to reconnect (or even chase her across the floor if she's doing something progressive :D ) can be problematic

[Sagitta]

How can the follower be too responsive?hmmm...I suggest a turn and she whips around in half the time that she is supposed to and so we got all this extra time. Sometimes kills the follower too as she expects her footing to be a specific way after that move. It can happen when people are full of energy, or used to something so they assume a similar, but different, lead needs the identical response. So...in short a person can move faster than what a leader is suggesting.

[fascination]

How can the follower be too responsive?one can respond too quickly to the lead's suggestion and with too much force and also continue to lead shapes that go with a figure to degrees not led:rolleyes:...not me of course...other women;)

[samina]

at a standard practice last week i danced a tango with someone whose lead was so uncertain & unclear, i mostly didn't know what to do, where to go, how to respond. quite the puzzle...

i didn't ask him to dance again (he wouldn't ask to begin with... not confident) because i thought, "how is this possible?"

it was frustrating, because it felt like there was no conversation occurring.

[reb]

Look, dancing is a conversation.

Some leaders mumble. Some leaders whisper, but carefully enunciate while doing so--and some followers are too deaf to hear it. Some leaders shout, but so loudly that what comes out is distorted and not understandable. Some leaders speak very clearly, but some followers don't have the vocabulary to understand everything.
I got to this a little late, but I have to say I admire Joe's way with words!

[samina]

have been mulling this over a bit today... am wondering, when the lead is mumbled-marfled-nonexist... how, as the follow, to help make the two look like there's actual dancing going on? to make it look good?

and, let's say, to help move things along, rather than taking tentative little baby steps that look like one needs a walker, to be confident enuf in the response to an unsure lead to still get the couple moving? i mean, the one going backwards has so much power... i wanna use mine better with these sort of leads, rather than to let things stall out...

am so interested in feedback on this...

[etp777]

heh, pro will backlead if I'm not dancing up to level she thinks I should. But that probably wouldn't go over too well with random social partner, esp with how she pushes (figuratively, literally pulls) me to stretch my lead in foxtrot. :)

[fascination]

I got to this a little late, but I have to say I admire Joe's way with words!he has many endearing qualities:cool:

[Peaches]

Two words: visual following.

Watch him dance with other people. You'll get an idea of what style he dances and what he generally leads.

When you're dancing with him, watch him. Even if he's got no frame, or can't lead with his center...if you watch what he's doing with himself you can generally get a decent idea. I've resorted to watching belt buckles. Shoulders often work, too.

And, there's always the method of not worrying about something the first time he "leads" it, messing it up, but figuring out what he meant to do, and then nailing it the second time around.

You can also backlead a bit (useful when someone's timing is a smidge off).

No idea about how to get someone to move. If you don't know how, I doubt having a follower who does is going to make it happen. But, then again, I haven't actually figured out the backwards/powerful/moving thing myself, so take that with a huge grain of (himalayan) salt.

[samina]

am thinking maybe i wanna start backleading... lol

not really... but sorta. when i'm social dancing, i'm just tuned in and listening so intently, bringing myself into his energy as much as possible so i can meet him there. but when nothing is happening there... maybe there's a way to gently backlead?

i know three leaders like this with whom i'll have plenty of opportunity to engage in the near future. what's a follower to do... and still be gracious?

[etp777]

"And, there's always the method of not worrying about something the first time he "leads" it, messing it up, but figuring out what he meant to do, and then nailing it the second time around. "

This one is great advice, coming from someone who (based on fact follow doesn't get it first time around) doesn't always give as good a lead as I need to. I've had lots of follows do this, and second time around she knew what I was trying to do, and we both enjoyed it. Encouraging for the lead too, not only do you kno what he's doin gthe next time, so you enjoy yourself more, helps him feel better, that while he may not have had lead perfect, at least you were able to figure it out if you put extra attention in. Positive experience like that encourages him to improve lead on that step, where if you don't put the extra efffort in, and he tries again and it still doesn't happen, he's more likely to be discouraged and jsut drop the step.

Can't give advice on the power backwards thing. I know what it feels like, dancing with certain people, but I don't know how they do it. All the people in question are pros, so they're used to dancing with people (incudling myself at times) that need that extra push(pull).

[samina]

But, then again, I haven't actually figured out the backwards/powerful/moving thing myself, so take that with a huge grain of (himalayan) salt.

:cool:

i'm remembering pro's coach repeating in class that whoever's going backward has all the power. so if i can just ascertain what direction the leader's body weight is moving, i figure i could invite him forward and he'd be forced to kick things in gear more than usual...

[etp777]

Oh, and of course, it's been beaten to death, but the old standby of jsut mentioning that lead isn't clear, or that you need stronger left hand, or whatever, is always a very valid option.

[Peaches]

I only rarely backlead. I tend to find it most with salsa and cha--the pause gets rushed with the former, and the 2-3 rock step gets rushed with the latter. I just try to "park" myself just a bit to slow things up.

As for being gracious... Accept the shortcomings, relax and realize it's not going to be a terriffic dance by any sort of technical standard, and find something to compliment. Anything. Even if it's just commenting on how much you love that song and were so glad he asked you to dance b/c you'd hate to sit it out. Smile. One day, he could end up being fantastic.

[fascination]

i will only backlead if a guy says he is lost in a group class and he accepts my offer to do so...otherwise I want to follow whatever he said even if he didn't know he said it

[samina]

As for being gracious... Accept the shortcomings, relax and realize it's not going to be a terriffic dance by any sort of technical standard, and find something to compliment. Anything. Even if it's just commenting on how much you love that song and were so glad he asked you to dance b/c you'd hate to sit it out. Smile.

yah, that's my usual MO. i want to explore some new possibilities, now. pro will be starting socials at his new studio and there are a handful of very tentative leaders i would like to dance with regularly, because they are members of my community. i'm not one to just sit around and wait or chat... if there are shy beginners or leads with less skill, i don't care... i wanna get them up off their duff and out having fun.

but how to make it look good even with a weak partner... that's what i want to work on. while having fun... :)

[samina]

i will only backlead if a guy says he is lost in a group class and he accepts my offer to do so...otherwise I want to follow whatever he said even if he didn't know he said it

yes, this i relate to -- is how i've been up to this point.

[Peaches]

This one is great adviceThank you, although I can't take credit. It was a piece of advice I got in an AT lesson, where the teacher was very specifically discussing how to follow less-than-good leads. His advice was that you use the first song (AT is danced in sets of 4 with the same partner) to figure out what he can't lead but meant to, and then you've got the remaining three to follow it his way. If "X" series of practically random movement means "go in a counter-clockwise circle with a grapevine foot pattern," then regardless of what that lead should actually feel like, when he does "X" just go with it. You'll know it's not right, but since you ain't gonna teach him the correct way of doing things right then and there, going with it is the best you've got. So...do it.

[jennyisdancing]

I only rarely backlead. I tend to find it most with salsa and cha--the pause gets rushed with the former, and the 2-3 rock step gets rushed with the latter. I just try to "park" myself just a bit to slow things up.

As for being gracious... Accept the shortcomings, relax and realize it's not going to be a terriffic dance by any sort of technical standard, and find something to compliment. Anything. Even if it's just commenting on how much you love that song and were so glad he asked you to dance b/c you'd hate to sit it out. Smile. One day, he could end up being fantastic.


ITA. That's a very lovely attitude and I try to do that myself. We all have (or had) shortcomings as dancers so I just follow the best I can.

I do find that in salsa, some leaders tell me they have a hard time finding the beat and they notice I have good rhythm, so they actually ask me to mark the beat to help them. I don't mind that.

[fascination]

gotta say this is similar to me to dancing with a few guys who have no rhythm...I have to totally suspend my own inclinations and just do what they want...I find it to be an excellent way to practice "listening"

[etp777]

Heh, I've had that as a lead. Follow who has no rhythm, but pays attention and has firm frame, I can help keep her going. If she has no frame, or doesn't pay attention though..... As peaches says, smile and be gracious. :)

[Peaches]

Look, 3 years into this dancing madness, and I still remember some of my very first "dances" with leaders who were patient and kind. To the point of talking me through a foxtrot (after dragging me onto the floor over my protestations that I didn't even know the basic in amer. foxtrot), and smiling and pretending they had a good time. I remember those dances far more than I remember the truly fabulous dances I've had with others.

Pay it forward, is my way of thinking about it.

And, at least with AT, I've now surpassed some of those leaders. But i don't forget them, and still love dancing with them.

[Peaches]

gotta say this is similar to me to dancing with a few guys who have no rhythm...I have to totally suspend my own inclinations and just do what they want...I find it to be an excellent way to practice "listening"
Yup, that's the other option.

[fascination]

exactly...I shudder to think of the wrenching pain I put pro through not to mention several others...

[etp777]

I haven't been at this as long, but feel exactly same way peaches. Remember merengue's (which I still dont' know and I still don't like) with one particular follow who made me go out there, was patient, made us look good, and we just had a fun time.

I always try to smile, make sure a follow feels as good or better leaving floor as she did going on, no matter how either of us danced. Try to grab the new dancers at our studio in particular at the socials, as they so often will only dance with the pros, or their husband/fiance, and feel like they have to sit out a lot for lack of partner, or since they only know 2-3 dances so far.

But still going to cheat and pay attention to where this thread goes to try to pick up any tricks as a lead. :)

[samina]

gotta say this is similar to me to dancing with a few guys who have no rhythm...I have to totally suspend my own inclinations and just do what they want...I find it to be an excellent way to practice "listening"

what i'm saying tho is that i'm out there on the floor, listening intently with every fiber of my being... and am gettin' nothing but the ocean. so, normally this means i'm going to be hardly moving, at best tentatively.

what i want to do is become better at making lemonade out of lemons.

for example, pro was watching his partner dancing with a student at a practice this summer and he was expressing admiration how she's learned to dance and show herself off even with students who are poor leaders. she wasn't always like that... she had to learn it.

has this come up for you at all?

[etp777]

This is perfect example of why you should learn WCS, sam. Easy for the woman to keep dancing and look good even with a guy like me who can only do basic. :) She can basiically just do what she wants.

Actually, now that I think of it, that pretty much describes what woman i was talking about before did during that merengue. :)

[Peaches]

Or AT, where standing still and making it look pretty and continuing to dance is an absolute art form.

[samina]

yah, i hear ya, etp. have heard it all before...

if i had all the time & all the money in the world... :)

[samina]

Or AT, where standing still and making it look pretty and continuing to dance is an absolute art form.

niiice. yes... makin' pretty with one's lovely CiF'ed feet...

[Peaches]

(How else do you think we manage to justify that kind of $$$ for shoes?!?!)

[etp777]

I know what you mean. I have list of dances that I still want to learn at end of my notes. In the ten months i've been at studio, think that WCS class I took last week was only like 4th one they've offfered, and first at time I could get in for (which is my biggest problem with most of the classes).

of coruse, only REALLY learned the basic, two other steps, but they need work. Then went to visit parents over weekend, and as you might figure with my family, dad taught me noticably different variation of the "basic" that our regular coach had taught him a couple months back. So already have to try to keep two versions of step in head, and I only know the one step in the dance. :)

[fascination]

as I see it there are really only a few options, all of which have been mentioned and I make a choice depending upon the guy...if I know that he should know how to hold me and is just being lazy in his frame, I might just coyly say, "I am going to make you work for this" ;) generally that gets him thinking of his lead...if I know that there is no freaking hope whatsover to rehabilitate his frame and that he is a "step-o-holic" I will just break my own frame and try to watch him so I can guess what he's up to or dance with him often enough that I know his reperatoire....or if he is new and sincere and wants to do well I might help him to hold me in a way that we can really feel each other, backlead a bit, or if he leads and it wasn't discernable I migh tell him what I thought his body was saying and why, and what I am accustomed to...but that is rare....it really depends upon the man and what I know of him...if I don't know him at all...I'll guess and then apologize if I get it wrong

[wooh]

Look, 3 years into this dancing madness, and I still remember some of my very first "dances" with leaders who were patient and kind. To the point of talking me through a foxtrot (after dragging me onto the floor over my protestations that I didn't even know the basic in amer. foxtrot), and smiling and pretending they had a good time. I remember those dances far more than I remember the truly fabulous dances I've had with others.

Pay it forward, is my way of thinking about it.

And, at least with AT, I've now surpassed some of those leaders. But i don't forget them, and still love dancing with them.

Absolutely! It really irritates me to see people that I knew as beginners got lots of dances, but now that they know what they're doing a bit, are "too good" to dance with a lot of those same people that gave them dances, and are certainly (in their minds) "too good" to dance with the beginners that they themselves once were.
I try to be as my instructor is, who looks fabulous and happy dancing with any guy that asks. Sometimes it comes from being plain silly. (I had an awesome rumba one night with a guy that only knew the basic, because I spent the whole time making exaggerated rumba faces and arm movements. We both had fun.) Sometimes it comes from just being graceful and balanced when the guy is trying hard to remember what to do next. I don't have to "make up" for his shortcomings, I just have to dance to the best of my ability. That may not mean with the perfect frame or some other sort of technique, but it does mean dancing with balance and meeting my partner where he's at.

[etp777]

Can't stand that, wooh. Luckily, I've been around studio about as long as anyone at the socials, and have good relationship with everyone, so I'll generally give them a bit of a verbal nudge into dancing with the newer dancers. Or better yet, what I did to one student (though she doesnt' fall into this category, just happened to be my victim that night), was to grab her and go onto floor as if we were going to dance, and then intercept one of our new wedding couples who'd been looking rather lonely/scared/left out that night, and took the bride and made her dance with the groom. But I'm mean. :)

[samina]

as I see it there are really only a few options, all of which have been mentioned and I make a choice depending upon the guy...if I know that he should know how to hold me and is just being lazy in his frame, I might just coyly say, "I am going to make you work for this" ;) generally that gets him thinking of his lead...if I know that there is no freaking hope whatsover to rehabilitate his frame and that he is a "step-o-holic" I will just break my own frame and try to watch him so I can guess what he's up to or dance with him often enough that I know his reperatoire....or if he is new and sincere and wants to do well I might help him to hold me in a way that we can really feel each other, backlead a bit, or if he leads and it wasn't discernable I migh tell him what I thought his body was saying and why, and what I am accustomed to...but that is rare....it really depends upon the man and what I know of him...if I don't know him at all...I'll guess and then apologize if I get it wrong

this is helpful. i think the thing for me will be to dance with these guys as frequently as possible at the socials and develop familiarity with their idiosyncracies, and strive to translate that eventually into appropriately responsive movement.

[fascination]

Absolutely! It really irritates me to see people that I knew as beginners got lots of dances, but now that they know what they're doing a bit, are "too good" to dance with a lot of those same people that gave them dances, and are certainly (in their minds) "too good" to dance with the beginners that they themselves once were.
I try to be as my instructor is, who looks fabulous and happy dancing with any guy that asks. Sometimes it comes from being plain silly. (I had an awesome rumba one night with a guy that only knew the basic, because I spent the whole time making exaggerated rumba faces and arm movements. We both had fun.) Sometimes it comes from just being graceful and balanced when the guy is trying hard to remember what to do next. I don't have to "make up" for his shortcomings, I just have to dance to the best of my ability. That may not mean with the perfect frame or some other sort of technique, but it does mean dancing with balance and meeting my partner where he's at.drives me insane as well wooh...we have a folks who won't do a group class unless it is silver and while I understand all day long that they know the steps my view is "remember how nice it was when you were a newb and someone who knew what they were doing danced with yOU?" and not only that but what the heck do they think the highest level pros are practicing?...rumba walks and feathers (prolly not together though;))

[samina]

Sometimes it comes from just being graceful and balanced when the guy is trying hard to remember what to do next. I don't have to "make up" for his shortcomings, I just have to dance to the best of my ability. That may not mean with the perfect frame or some other sort of technique, but it does mean dancing with balance and meeting my partner where he's at.

that's nice, wooh. i like that...

[etp777]

I'll definitely vote for something as simple as balance in partner, esp if I'm dancing waltz or doing those stupid leg hooks in tango, as for whatever reason, that's where I'm most likely to be off balance, so i want her to have good balance so I don't knock us over. :)

[samina]

...but what the heck do they think the highest level pros are practicing?...rumba walks and feathers (prolly not together though;))

exactly. it's all built on the basics... i don't mind at all doing basic steps all night at socials... just wanna have fun & connect & make the most of each dance. :D

[Indiana_Jay]

drives me insane as well wooh...we have a folks who won't do a group class unless it is silver and while I understand all day long that they know the steps my view is "remember how nice it was when you were a newb and someone who knew what they were doing danced with yOU?" and not only that but what the heck do they think the highest level pros are practicing?...rumba walks and feathers (prolly not together though;))

LW and I had a great model at our studio. An energetic 70-year-old guy, Mr. R., who has taken lessons at the same studio for at least a decade, would show up every Friday night for our beginner's group. We really appreciated that he was there with us when we knew he wasn't getting much out of it.
Now that our skills have developed from beginner to "barely bronze," we keep Mr. R. in mind and show up for beginner classes when we can. And we always seek out new dancers at socials and invite them to dance. This, I believe, is how it should be. We're grateful to Mr. R. for setting such a good example.

[liz]

Do you guys think there are people who are competitve dancers and some who are social dancers/ or both? Even when I was just getting started, I didn't enjoy social dancing... I think I am to much of a "type A" personality... I want to do what I have been taught, how I have been taught, by who has taught me... Never wanted to be a pro. I just haven't ever liked social dancing...Was like pulling teeth for me... What is funny is that I can be very nervous in large groups where I don't feel comfortable... I like the one on one of private lessons... Just works best for me.

[etp777]

Only caveat I'd say on that is to make sure whomever is teaching class knows that you're there to try to be supportive and help the beginners, not to necessarily learn new stuff. Can be stressful for pros when people go to classes below their level. It's a business, so pro of course is trying to keep all the students happy, but when people come to class noticably below their levle, if pro doesn't know that this is reason, pro can worry about whether to teach up to the more advanced person, or to keep it simple for the beginners (as is appropriate if it's labeled a beginner class), and risk annoying the more advanced customer.

As long as pro realizes why you're there, works wonderfully. I'll do same thing. Ocasionally by accident, when I misread the calendar, though. :)

[Indiana_Jay]

Do you guys think there are people who are competitve dancers and some who are social dancers/ or both? Even when I was just getting started, I didn't enjoy social dancing... I think I am to much of a "type A" personality... I want to do what I have been taught, how I have been taught, by who has taught me... Never wanted to be a pro. I just haven't ever liked social dancing...Was like pulling teeth for me... What is funny is that I can be very nervous in large groups where I don't feel comfortable... I like the one on one of private lessons... Just works best for me.

I think the answer is that there are examples of all three types: 1.) Competitors who aren't interested in social dance, b.) social dancers (like me) who aren't interested in competition (except to watch) and III.) Competitors who also enjoy social dancing.

There's plenty of room in this hobby for all three!

-IJ

[newdancer113]

what i want to do is become better at making lemonade out of lemons.

for example, pro was watching his partner dancing with a student at a practice this summer and he was expressing admiration how she's learned to dance and show herself off even with students who are poor leaders. she wasn't always like that... she had to learn it.



Well said...this is what I want to learn how to do but have no clue how to go about it. I should probably change my user name, since I've been dancing for 2 years now. Done a few very small comps (local) and will be trying something more regional in a few months. I have never had a partner...so I've always danced with my pro (I'm at a chain studio that does private-group-party units). The teachers encourage students who are aspiring to better technique than most to come to as many parties as possible in order to practice. And I've been told that you can practice the basics with anybody. But, again, I'm having trouble with that. I find it hard to to a proper rumba box, for example, with a new student who is bascially marching though it. Frankly, I don't find this helpful to me at this point in time. I dance with new students to encourage them, but I want time where I'm able to practice at my level too.

And then there's the lead- follow. thing..there are some students (some of whom have been taking lessons longer than me) who I just haven't been able to figure out what they are trying to lead. I believe I do fairly well when dancing with the teachers and some of the stronger students. But when I dance the students who have weak leads, I feel like a bumbling idiot. I'd love to be like the teachers who can gladly dance well with any student.

[wooh]

I think it's important to remember: We say we can dance something with good dancers, so obviously it's the other person's fault if we can't dance it with them. Not necessarily true. After all, maybe they can dance it with the good dancers too. Maybe those good dancers are compensating for us?
Example: Just because lady A can be dragged around the room doing a VW, it doesn't mean that it's my husband's fault he can't drag her around the room. He can do his half. It's HER fault that he needs to do more than his half with her. So for a while, I could VW with a pro. But not my husband. We were both able to do about 45% of the work. Just because a pro can do 55% doesn't mean I was actually any better than my husband because he could only do the 45% I could do and not the 55% a pro could do.
It's a trap that's easy to fall into, I do it often. But the more we remain focused on improving our own dancing than complaining about what other people lack in their's, the nicer it is for everyone.

[waltzgirl]

Well, you can hang on to the username a little longer. Once when I was complaining about being a beginner, a very accomplished amateur dancer told me, "oh, you're a baby in ballroom for about 6 years." I've been dancing about 5, and I think she was right.

Just be patient with yourself. As you get better, you will be able to adapt more easily to different leads. And keep in mind that, dancing with the teachers and the "stronger students," they may be having the same experience you are when you dance with others--and they are being gracious about it, aren't they?

[wooh]

Just be patient with yourself. As you get better, you will be able to adapt more easily to different leads. And keep in mind that, dancing with the teachers and the "stronger students," they may be having the same experience you are when you dance with others--and they are being gracious about it, aren't they?

:DI like that!;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Well, you can hang on to the username a little longer. Once when I was complaining about being a beginner, a very accomplished amateur dancer told me, "oh, you're a baby in ballroom for about 6 years." I've been dancing about 5, and I think she was right.
I'm starting to head down the birth canal. :cool:

[elisedance]

I'm starting to head down the birth canal. :cool:

:D

watch out for the drop...

[tanya_the_dancer]

drives me insane as well wooh...we have a folks who won't do a group class unless it is silver and while I understand all day long that they know the steps my view is "remember how nice it was when you were a newb and someone who knew what they were doing danced with yOU?" and not only that but what the heck do they think the highest level pros are practicing?...rumba walks and feathers (prolly not together though;))

Well, even though pros practice basics, they do it in much finer detail then a beginner's group class can possibly cover them. I stopped coming for beginner classes once I realized that I am not getting anything new out of them, and I am better off taking a private lesson (to work on basics :) ).

[fascination]

meh...just b/c it isn't being taught with finer detail doesn't mean I can't practice it for less than my private lesson at a group class

[tanya_the_dancer]

Is it effective use of your dancing time, though? There are only 24 hours in a day, and I can spend only so many of them on dancing, so I try to optimize whatever I do, and I do not see reviewing beginning steps in a class full of beginners as efficient use of my time.

[fascination]

I am fortunate in that I have lots of time....and I do not often chooose to go to a group...I simply will attend one if I am on my way there for another reason...I try to always look at the upside of any dance activity....and certain opportunities work best for different levels of intensity...sometimes I am too tired or sore for anything else...shrug...so...sometimes the answer is yes

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Well, you can hang on to the username a little longer. Once when I was complaining about being a beginner, a very accomplished amateur dancer told me, "oh, you're a baby in ballroom for about 6 years." I've been dancing about 5, and I think she was right.

I'm starting to head down the birth canal. :cool:
:D

watch out for the drop...
What?! There won't be someone there to catch me? I knew I shouldn't have quit pro-am. :headwall:

[Terpsichorean Clod]

YMMV. In my experience, there is always something for me to work on, even if I do not have the wisdom at the time to see what that is.

[tsb]

Look, dancing is a conversation.

Some leaders mumble. Some leaders whisper, but carefully enunciate while doing so--and some followers are too deaf to hear it. Some leaders shout, but so loudly that what comes out is distorted and not understandable. Some leaders speak very clearly, but some followers don't have the vocabulary to understand everything.

and which is typically *your* excuse?

[tsb]

Don't mean to sound ugly but maybe you need to read the follwing thread:

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=3096


IHO social dancing is not a place to practice technique.

someone in my dance circle got "better" and immediately became a load to drag around the floor because she became so caught up in executing correct footwork that she stopped moving her body first.

[tsb]

great point joe


agreed. beautifully put.

really?

shouldn't the leader also be listening and responding to what the follower is saying ? what was described was not conversation - it was lecture!

[latingal]

shouldn't the leader also be listening and responding to what the follower is saying ? what was described was not conversation - it was lecture!

I didn't think that Joe was saying that the leader shouldn't be listening to the follower, in fact he started off his post with the idea that dancing is a conversation. I just think at that point in the thread we were talking more about the leaders and "weak leads" and perhaps the followers role in not interpreting the leads.

[dancerman]

It is kind of funny to read this as a leader. I usually feel like my lead is really good. Then, I dance with someone I have known for years but havent danced with in a while, and I can't lead them down a one way street with a map. It drives me bonkers.
I think what happens is people are trying too hard to anticipate what I am going to do next. They get so accustomed to dancing with the same partner that their expecatition is that I am going to lead them the same way. WRONG!
If I can ask for anything from a follower it is to please stop thinking when we dance together. If you have to, close you eyes. It's all about trust. Let me lead you. If my lead is weak, then your following instincts need to be strong. I can imagine these leaders feel the same way when they dance with you. They are probably just as frustrated.
Stop dancing for you and start dancing with them. You will make them a better leader.
And dance to enjoy!!

[Joe]

and which is typically *your* excuse?
I don't need a [foxtrotting] excuse. The title of this thread is "Following a weak lead?" not "Leading a weak follow?"

[samina]

really?

shouldn't the leader also be listening and responding to what the follower is saying ?

well, yeah... that's why joe called it a conversation.:rolleyes:

what was described was not conversation - it was lecture!sounded to me like he was highlighting the defective "conversational" tendencies of some leaders... that the following participates in a back-and-forth is the given. but she can't if the leader doesn't do his part.

[dancerman]

I thought following a weak lead and leading a weak follow amounted to the same thing. If I sounded like I lectured, many apologies. I only passed on what followers have said to me. And for the record, I'm not experienced enough to lecture.
:-)

[fascination]

I didn't think that Joe was saying that the leader shouldn't be listening to the follower, in fact he started off his post with the idea that dancing is a conversation. I just think at that point in the thread we were talking more about the leaders and "weak leads" and perhaps the followers role in not interpreting the leads.
agree...I think you misunderstand tsb...first of all the question was about a lead...but beyond that, having both spent time with and danced with joe....he listens far more than he talks

[fascination]

It is kind of funny to read this as a leader. I usually feel like my lead is really good. Then, I dance with someone I have known for years but havent danced with in a while, and I can't lead them down a one way street with a map. It drives me bonkers.
I think what happens is people are trying too hard to anticipate what I am going to do next. They get so accustomed to dancing with the same partner that their expecatition is that I am going to lead them the same way. WRONG!
If I can ask for anything from a follower it is to please stop thinking when we dance together. If you have to, close you eyes. It's all about trust. Let me lead you. If my lead is weak, then your following instincts need to be strong. I can imagine these leaders feel the same way when they dance with you. They are probably just as frustrated.
Stop dancing for you and start dancing with them. You will make them a better leader.
And dance to enjoy!!yes...I think it takes time for a follow to distinguish the difference between a lead pulling them and watching for the tension in the connection to develop so t that the whoosh occurs...if that makes sense to anyone but myself...and I think sometimes a new and responsible follow tries to hard too be prompt...

[fascination]

I don't need a [foxtrotting] excuse. The title of this thread is "Following a weak lead?" not "Leading a weak follow?"there, there...save your foxtrots for people who deserve them:cool:

[dancerman]

yes...I think it takes time for a follow to distinguish the difference between a lead pulling them and watching for the tension in the connection to develop so t that the whoosh occurs...if that makes sense to anyone but myself...and I think sometimes a new and responsible follow tries to hard too be prompt...

Thnx.
My lead is not the greatest so when the follow helps me by not anticipating I think it helps me become better.
Does that make any sense? :confused:

[elisedance]

yes...I think it takes time for a follow to distinguish the difference between a lead pulling them and watching for the tension in the connection to develop so t that the whoosh occurs...if that makes sense to anyone but myself...and I think sometimes a new and responsible follow tries to hard too be prompt...

You are absolutely right fasc. As I am understanding it, the art of following is to maintain contact, put yourself in a the appropriate waiting position and - wait. The latter is absolutely the hardest thing to do as you worry that you will be left behind. However, when I do that, wait, my lead is always so pleased and tells me he could do anything....

[fascination]

Thnx.
My lead is not the greatest so when the follow helps me by not anticipating I think it helps me become better.
Does that make any sense? :confused:yes it does,,,to me at least

[etp777]

Thnx.
My lead is not the greatest so when the follow helps me by not anticipating I think it helps me become better.
Does that make any sense? :confused:

Absolutely dancerman. Actually, we were talking about this in other thread about Dance Partners in general section.

[globedancer]

You carry a gun to the dances ???! :shock:

my thought exactly!! ROTFL

[dancerman]

You carry a gun to the dances ???! :shock:

A gun?
My God, I do enough damage with 1-1/2" Cuban Heels.

:doh:

[latingal]

Welcome to DF globedancer!

[reb]

agree...I think you misunderstand tsb...first of all the question was about a lead...but beyond that, having both spent time with and danced with joe....he listens far more than he talks
Joe's contribution-per-word is off the charts, making it easy to believe fascination when she writes this!:D