What is a social Waltz for Standard dancers?

[vcolfari]

I'm curious to know how Standard leaders approach Waltz at social dances. I stick to natural and reverse turns and change steps, which I thought were fundamental patterns and manageable for any follower, regardless of level. Still, I find that many followers seem to be completely unfamiliar with these patterns. Aren't these figures taught in Smooth?

An example of a common occurrence is when I attempt to move my right leg after completing a natural turn and the follower's left foot is completely stationary, which results in toes bumping and an unpleasant experience. I have tried lowering more, lowering and moving forward more, sending the center more, etc. I am certainly willing to accept responsibility for something I may (or may not) be doing that results in a poor lead; however, after hearing similar comments from much more experienced dancers about the challenges of Waltz in social settings, I am starting to believe that many dancers are unprepared to dance these figures. When I watch other people dance Waltz socially, I rarely see these patterns.

Is it unrealistic for me to expect natural and reverse turns and change steps in social Waltz?

[saludas]

In a word, no - you'll see wierd box steps (thanks to the dumbing down of dance from mr Murray) but not much technique or movement. You will certainly hear about how YOU are not doing the 'right waltz' when the beginner goes outside their 3 steps...

Beginners have a few problems that are incidentally the basis for teaching beginners the basic American Waltz - the concept of weight change, the concept of closing the feet, and the concept of moving off the standing leg are needed before a dancer can do a Natural turn, but the beginner social dancer usually sees a box pattern and simply counts 1-2-3 while moving around.

Commonly a follow will try to complete the Natural turn without changing weight on the third step; hence, American 'style' 'brushing' action (same problem for them in t-a-n-g-o). Basically, beginners do not see continuous movement in dance, but feel a step pattern that always is symetrical and always begins and ends with a 'known' foot pattern. The transition to actual dancing is also stymied by many beginners' refusal to see technique as something that actually has something to do with dancing, hence the 'I just follow" or "I don't take lessons" commment that usually precedes that awkward 3 minutes of shuffling around.

The really basc part of partner dancing (the follow does 50% of the movement) becomes an issue the moment you move backwards and the follow simply stabs her foot into the floor, telling you that she/he HAS gone 'forward'. Since you are swinging and mving , the beginner thinks that you are 'pulling' (which as a result of the non-movement, you ARE) and finally comments that "Joe/Harry/whomever" never does that and is so 'easy' to dance with, as you look at some codger hunching his shoulders and shuffling against the line of dance and cringe.

That and the fact that a beginner in social dance thinks they are not beginners after a 4 week course makes this a drag for someone to dance with.

[evanluck]

I'm curious to know how Standard leaders approach Waltz at social dances. I stick to natural and reverse turns and change steps, which I thought were fundamental patterns and manageable for any follower, regardless of level. Still, I find that many followers seem to be completely unfamiliar with these patterns. Aren't these figures taught in Smooth?

An example of a common occurrence is when I attempt to move my right leg after completing a natural turn and the follower's left foot is completely stationary, which results in toes bumping and an unpleasant experience. I have tried lowering more, lowering and moving forward more, sending the center more, etc. I am certainly willing to accept responsibility for something I may (or may not) be doing that results in a poor lead; however, after hearing similar comments from much more experienced dancers about the challenges of Waltz in social settings, I am starting to believe that many dancers are unprepared to dance these figures. When I watch other people dance Waltz socially, I rarely see these patterns.

Is it unrealistic for me to expect natural and reverse turns and change steps in social Waltz?

I think that social dancers who dance mostly American Waltz will respond better to figures that pass rather than figures where you close your feet. At least this is what I have found.

Women who are having trouble with box and changes steps are unsure about their own weight changes so I've found that dancing figures that pass make the weight changes more obvious.

I actually think that the international syllabus for both Standard and Latin are purposely constructed with "gate keeper" steps at the bronze level that feel terrible unless you can do them with a fairly high level of technique. This is true with boxes and change steps in waltz, feather and three step in fox trot, and fan/alemana/hockey stick in rhumba and chacha. This is contrasted with the American syllabus and the general teaching approach of the franchise studios which is get them moving, get them having a good time, and we'll fix it for the people that care later.

[vcolfari]

Thank you for the feedback, saludas. I'm truly laughing out loud at some of your descriptions. Yes, the concepts of weight change and moving off the standing leg are good explanations of the problem. This is certainly frustrating. It's getting to the point where I want to give up social dancing altogether. It's hard to stay motivated when having two or three quality dances in a night is an example of a good night.

[waltzgirl]

Perhaps you could learn a few American waltz patterns, since that seems to be what the ladies you dance with are familiar with.

[vcolfari]

I have considered learning some American patterns, but I honestly don't enjoy open movements. The closed American patterns I had been exposed to in the past didn't seem to travel much, which also isn't very appealing. But you're right, it might be necessary for me to learn some American patterns if I want to get through an awkward dance or just deal with the alternative--sitting out more dances.

[tangotime]

Good Q-- All my social classes in the UK, have a slight mixture ( tango purely )of Amer. br. Fig. added to the basic nat. and rev. and closed change sequences.
The Nat. to Rev. sequence you mentioned, always seem to be a problem for beginners . Add to this fact, the techn. or lack of it, leads to a lot of problems, for the beginner .


I avoid the box like the plague. Even in my coaching in Amer. studios, I discouraged it, in the smooth dances .Used and taught, primarily to show the relationship between the dances. I think it has long overstayed its welcome . !

[swan]

Perhaps this would go better - try it, start with reverse turn. American style social dancers get confused if you start with prep step & natural. Even if you omit prep step & go straight into a 'right' turn, you'll get stalled by your follower :)!

Just do full reverse & then try a change step & to natural.

I'd be curious on your report after the next social dance :)

[vcolfari]

Perhaps this would go better - try it, start with reverse turn. American style social dancers get confused if you start with prep step & natural. Even if you omit prep step & go straight into a 'right' turn, you'll get stalled by your follower :)!

Just do full reverse & then try a change step & to natural.

I'd be curious on your report after the next social dance :)

Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned that this is the pattern I usually follow (beginning with a reverse). There is no way I would start with either a prep step or a natural. I have often imagined how much worse it would be if I started with a prep! :D

This is a great suggestion but, unfortunately, that's how I always approach it and the outcome is still (often) ugly.

[swan]

wow, and still have problem? I should try next time lead someone on this & see what happens. We've got plenty of beginner social dancers in the studio who only know American style. This could be fun experiment!

[waltzgirl]

Do your followers normally dance bronze or silver American waltz (if you know)? That would make a difference in what might be best for you to learn. There are quite a few closed position patterns that travel (whether your followers will travel much is another question :)).

[swan]

BTW-I had a chance to watch an American silver syllabus tape one time on american foxtrot. I swear all the figures were very much "translatable" to international style!

And there you go! Isn't the American waltz passing style similar to international foxtrot? You can try some of the foxtrot steps & see what happens. It's nothing but feather finishes :)

One time I was showing someone bronze international foxtrot steps. Well, he said, oh, it's like our American waltz steps (meaning the reverse & natural of the man's steps!)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Perhaps this would go better - try it, start with reverse turn. American style social dancers get confused if you start with prep step & natural. Even if you omit prep step & go straight into a 'right' turn, you'll get stalled by your follower :)!

Just do full reverse & then try a change step & to natural.

I'd be curious on your report after the next social dance :)
I don't think it's an issue of confusion over the prep step/natural, but rather the unfamiliarity with natural figures. Social American classes generally seem to start with a basic box, then left box and box w/UAT. I guess because of the left offset, it's easier to teach left boxes than right boxes? Anyway, I think the figure progression drills into students that left foot goes forward and right foot goes back. On the social floor, they're fine with overturning left boxes into reverse turns, but trying to do natural turns when they haven't even covered right boxes... And because they're not used to stepping back with the left foot, you can't do a progressive basic, either.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Sorry, I guess I should have mentioned that this is the pattern I usually follow (beginning with a reverse). There is no way I would start with either a prep step or a natural. I have often imagined how much worse it would be if I started with a prep! :D

This is a great suggestion but, unfortunately, that's how I always approach it and the outcome is still (often) ugly.
Ditto. The reverse is fine, then the attempted natural hits a roadblock. In some cases, I follow the reverse turn with a left box, turning from DW to DC, then do another reverse turn - wash, rinse, repeat. Unwieldy, but protects the toes/feet.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I think that social dancers who dance mostly American Waltz will respond better to figures that pass rather than figures where you close your feet. At least this is what I have found.

Women who are having trouble with box and changes steps are unsure about their own weight changes so I've found that dancing figures that pass make the weight changes more obvious.

I actually think that the international syllabus for both Standard and Latin are purposely constructed with "gate keeper" steps at the bronze level that feel terrible unless you can do them with a fairly high level of technique. This is true with boxes and change steps in waltz, feather and three step in fox trot, and fan/alemana/hockey stick in rhumba and chacha. This is contrasted with the American syllabus and the general teaching approach of the franchise studios which is get them moving, get them having a good time, and we'll fix it for the people that care later.
Good points! Lowering with feet together seems to make it easier for them to omit the weight change. Though for the open twinkle/hover telemark to PP, I've had some followers manage to change weight on step 2. Anyway, I've been in a lot of situations where the feel of the dance has improved a lot after switching from bronze American/International to silver American. I think you make a good case for promoting a "social silver American" style.

[saludas]

I have a question - when you are TEACHING a beginner who has learned all these box combinations and thinks they all are different dances (rhumba is a box step, waltz is a box setp, they even do samba with this 'magic box') what do you say / what do you do to get them to advance beyond this? As a teacher, how do you get them to understand that passing their feet (for instance) is the very start of dancing - how do you get them to stop plodding and start moving?

[Joe]

How do your follows react to the closed change after the reverse?

[tangotime]

Natural figures in most dances, generally seem more difficult , than rev .figures , particularly for beginners .

Its true of both genres. No definitive answer-- but this has been offered in the past--

The " natural " flow of dance, is counter clockwise-- it is thought, that when one tells the body to reverse, to the " natural " direction, some kind of a brake, steps in, and does not readily ( beginners ) accept the premise .

Have some older couples in my current classes, that are still struggling with this very same thing , after 3 months .

[etp777]

Is progressive not taught in most social classes? I know we tecah that down at social foundation (lowest) level, and I kind of assumed this was standard, as to me, at least at that time, this was easiest way to make sure we progressed down the floor, since it is a progressive dance and all. :) Of course now have various twinkles, chasses, locks, etc ad nauseum to progress down the floor, but I kind of assumed the progressive was just a standard thing that was almost required.

[waltzgirl]

It was the second waltz step I was taught.

[etp777]

Same, well, second or third. Know we did box first, then can't remember if we did left box w/uat or progressive second and third, but those were definitely second and third.

[tangotime]

The "prog " movements to which you refer, were called " streamline ".

Kind of indicative in Amer.style br, and given as a prelude to silver.

However--- waltz being Rotary-- the linear look is the least desirable

[Terpsichorean Clod]

If I recall correctly, Alex Moore recommends in "Ballroom Dancing" that beginners start with dancing only forward closed changes before learning natural/reverse turns.

[vcolfari]

How do your follows react to the closed change after the reverse?

not well :D. It's all a big mess :D

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I have considered learning some American patterns, but I honestly don't enjoy open movements. The closed American patterns I had been exposed to in the past didn't seem to travel much, which also isn't very appealing. But you're right, it might be necessary for me to learn some American patterns if I want to get through an awkward dance or just deal with the alternative--sitting out more dances.
I guess it doesn't help that natural/reverse turns are so far down on the DVIDA syllabus (Figures 8, 9, Bronze 3 level).

Closed figures from the DVIDA bronze syllabus that do not involve natural turns:
-progressive twinkles
-grapevine
-fallaway and slip pivot

[vcolfari]

Natural figures in most dances, generally seem more difficult , than rev .figures , particularly for beginners .

Have some older couples in my current classes, that are still struggling with this very same thing , after 3 months .

I had no idea natural turns were so difficult. No wonder social dancing has been so frustrating for me.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

An example of a common occurrence is when I attempt to move my right leg after completing a natural turn and the follower's left foot is completely stationary, which results in toes bumping and an unpleasant experience.
If the follower is doing only two weight changes on the back half of the natural, maybe you could just treat it as a hesitation change? ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I had no idea natural turns were so difficult. No wonder social dancing has been so frustrating for me.
I think a lot of beginners are uncomfortable about stepping between their partner's legs.

[etp777]

That is definitely true TC. I've finally gotten to point where I won't always call myself a beginner anymore, but still iffy about that at times. Leg hooks too. :) always worried I'm going to kick pro/whomever I'm dancing with.

[jdm]

I'm curious to know how Standard leaders approach Waltz at social dances. I stick to natural and reverse turns and change steps, which I thought were fundamental patterns and manageable for any follower, regardless of level. Still, I find that many followers seem to be completely unfamiliar with these patterns. Aren't these figures taught in Smooth?


At least with respect to DVIDA's interpretation of the Smooth syllabus, prior to their syllabus revamp in 2006, there was a pattern called "Turn Combination (3/8 Turn)" at the Bronze III level which was precisely a Reverse Turn, LF Closed Change, Natural Turn, RF Closed Change. At my studio this pattern is taught in the 4th month of American Waltz group classes (Intermediate 1B). I'm not sure how often it is used on the social dance floor, but most group class students would eventually have been exposed to it here. ... Or they learn it in Beginning 1 International Waltz group class, which is also taught with increasing frequency and interest!

[DanceMentor]

As expressed a couple of times in this thread, I wanted to also say that I feel that it is unfortunate that the Natural Turn is not given enough emphasis in American style. It is very common to see dancers that can do Silver, but can't do a Natural Turn. I don't like it one bit.

[waltzguy]

I have similar experiences with social waltzes where the lady does not know the natural turn. This seems true for the vast majority of social dancers. In fact, I had one lady tell me once upon a time, "right foot forward? this is unconventional".

But, I've also danced with total strangers at a social dance (like in a different city from where I live), that knew international standard style, and the natural turn was a breeze.

Interestingly enough, the ones that know standard also seem to not mind true closed position. But this could be its own thread!

[waltzguy]

I don't think it's an issue of confusion over the prep step/natural, but rather the unfamiliarity with natural figures. Social American classes generally seem to start with a basic box, then left box and box w/UAT. I guess because of the left offset, it's easier to teach left boxes than right boxes? Anyway, I think the figure progression drills into students that left foot goes forward and right foot goes back. On the social floor, they're fine with overturning left boxes into reverse turns, but trying to do natural turns when they haven't even covered right boxes... And because they're not used to stepping back with the left foot, you can't do a progressive basic, either.

I'm with you on this.

[swan]

What I don't get is most social dancers know V. Waltz. Now I can't imagine they do reverse turns all throughout the song! If they know V. Waltz, why can't they follow a natural turn? I'm truly puzzled...

[Terpsichorean Clod]

It might have something to do with this:
DVIDA Viennese waltz
Figure 3 (Bronze II) Reverse turn
Figure 8 (Full bronze) Natural turn

I know of a number of smooth classes which even after 3 or 6 months never get to Viennese natural turns. I've also been in a number of month-long Viennese classes in which we never got beyond hesitations...

[swan]

What's in between Figure 3 & 8? :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Bronze I
1. Balance steps
2a. Fifth position breaks
2b. Fifth position breaks w/UAT
Bronze II
3. Reverse turn
4. Closed twinkle
Bronze III
5a. Crossbody lead
5b. Crossbody lead w/UAT
6. Hand to hand
7a. Forward progressive changes
7b. Backward progressive changes
Full bronze
8. Natural turn
9. Change of place
10. Curtsey and bow

See what you've been missing out on? ;)

[swan]

:) Indeed! :) What was I thinking when I started out dancing? American style is the way to go :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Instead of being limited to silly Bronze II figures like the reverse turn, you could've been doing eye-catching Bronze III figures like forward progressive changes and even...:dramatic pause:...backward progressive changes.

[swan]

I just want to do the curtsey & bow :)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Devilish figure, that, being full bronze level, and all. But if you can do it for 90 seconds straight, you just might sweep the judges.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I have similar experiences with social waltzes where the lady does not know the natural turn. This seems true for the vast majority of social dancers. In fact, I had one lady tell me once upon a time, "right foot forward? this is unconventional".
<lol> It's the exact opposite at vintage waltz socials. As I was dancing with one lady, I asked her if it was alright if we switched it up a little. She had a disbelieving look on her face as she replied, "Are you sure it's really possible to turn left?"

[tangotime]

If I recall correctly, Alex Moore recommends in "Ballroom Dancing" that beginners start with dancing only forward closed changes before learning natural/reverse turns.


pretty much all schools in u.k. use fwd and backwards closed changes from the very outset.
That is fairly rapidly transitioned, into Nat---- Rev. turns

[tangotime]

If the follower is doing only two weight changes on the back half of the natural, maybe you could just treat it as a hesitation change? ;)


I generally delay the intro. of Nat. Hesit.-- altho very important in the basic structure, one needs to develop sound weight changes, and the ability to recognise the differences, between a non change, and a changed movement .

[Joe]

pretty much all schools in u.k. use fwd and backwards closed changes from the very outset.
That is fairly rapidly transitioned, into Nat---- Rev. turns
Well, what is a Natural or Reverse, but a closed change that turns? :)

[tangotime]

Well, what is a Natural or Reverse, but a closed change that turns? :)


Easy for you to do !!-- you,ve obviously never met my students !! :rolleyes:

[atk]

I'm curious to know how Standard leaders approach Waltz at social dances. I stick to natural and reverse turns and change steps, which I thought were fundamental patterns and manageable for any follower, regardless of level. Still, I find that many followers seem to be completely unfamiliar with these patterns. Aren't these figures taught in Smooth?

An example of a common occurrence is when I attempt to move my right leg after completing a natural turn and the follower's left foot is completely stationary, which results in toes bumping and an unpleasant experience. I have tried lowering more, lowering and moving forward more, sending the center more, etc. I am certainly willing to accept responsibility for something I may (or may not) be doing that results in a poor lead; however, after hearing similar comments from much more experienced dancers about the challenges of Waltz in social settings, I am starting to believe that many dancers are unprepared to dance these figures. When I watch other people dance Waltz socially, I rarely see these patterns.

Is it unrealistic for me to expect natural and reverse turns and change steps in social Waltz?


At AM, bronze 1 waltz patterns include the box step, open break and underarm turn, walk around turn, progressive change step, promenade (with or without develope), and a couple others. All are based on the box step, and most american style newcomer followers that I have run into can follow at least some of them. I suggest sticking to the figures listed with a follower who is just starting out. You may even need to stick with a subset - like just the box and the progressive change steps.

I believe that right turns box turns are part of the bronze 2 waltz syllabus. If they're not, then they're a variation in the bronze 1 syllabus. Newcomers won't know it. Continuity patterns (open natural, open reverse, streamline/run, etc.) are taught at bronze 3 and above - again, american style newcomers won't know it.

The things that I've found help to lead newcomers the most are:
Lead steps she's familiar with. This keeps her comfortable, and encourages her to keep trying. Corollary: If she won't follow a particular pattern, don't lead it.
Expect her to anticipate patterns, since she doesn't know to wait for each individual lead, yet.
Provide a good frame. As always, the better your frame, the better she'll follow.
Don't try to dance in body contact. American style isn't always taught to start in body contact, so dancing in body contact may just completely weird her out.
Do foot rise, but no body rise. Use minimal sway, and minimal swing. This helps her to change weight on steps 3 and 6.
Don't lead anything where you go backwards, and she has to step between your feet. If she's not used to stepping forward at you with her left foot, she'll be worried about stepping on your feet, and will either stop short, or will step way outside you.

[atk]

I have considered learning some American patterns, but I honestly don't enjoy open movements. The closed American patterns I had been exposed to in the past didn't seem to travel much, which also isn't very appealing. But you're right, it might be necessary for me to learn some American patterns if I want to get through an awkward dance or just deal with the alternative--sitting out more dances.

Not all american patterns are open. Bronze 1 includes: box, progressive change steps, promenade, and magic left turn. Bronze 2 includes: progressive outside changes, basic twinkle (which is a 6 count twinkle, still based on the box pattern), quarter turns, and two way turns. You are correct in that these patterns don't travel much, compared to continuity patterns, though the can travel more than most bronze 1 or 2 students I've seen will let them.

[atk]

At least with respect to DVIDA's interpretation of the Smooth syllabus, prior to their syllabus revamp in 2006, there was a pattern called "Turn Combination (3/8 Turn)" at the Bronze III level which was precisely a Reverse Turn, LF Closed Change, Natural Turn, RF Closed Change. At my studio this pattern is taught in the 4th month of American Waltz group classes (Intermediate 1B). I'm not sure how often it is used on the social dance floor, but most group class students would eventually have been exposed to it here. ... Or they learn it in Beginning 1 International Waltz group class, which is also taught with increasing frequency and interest!


This sounds like the two-way-turns pattern taught in bronze 2 at AM.

[etp777]

Or the "Left and Right Underarm Turns" which is Bronze 1 (advanced syllabus) at FA. Generally, at least pro did for me, teach it without the UATs first, so it's jsut 3/8 turns left and right.

[samina]

this sorta discussion makes my head spin. am so glad not a leader...

[atk]

this sorta discussion makes my head spin. am so glad not a leader...

Our job may be to figure out what to lead and all, but you've got to try and to follow it. I think that following properly is more difficult than leading properly. I can only follow okay for a very short time (less than 30 seconds) before I start anticipating, thinking, getting heavy, etc.

[samina]

true, each side has its challenge. :)

[rjcbear]

true, each side has its challenge. :)

Sam,

Is it the Tequila? :rolleyes:

[samina]

actually, i think a shot of tequila might slow brain function & make things easier... lol

[fascination]

I volunteer...

[rjcbear]

actually, i think a shot of tequila might slow brain function & make things easier... lol

Sam,

Sending you a bottle....:cheers:

[rjcbear]

Sam,

Share some with Fasc.

[samina]

fasc, do you think we could down a bottle among the two of us & peaches?

honestly, i'm too cheap a date.... two shots, i'm out :)

[samina]

rjc... i love the way you think, btw. ::batting eyes:: ;)

[rjcbear]

rjc... i love the way you think, btw. ::batting eyes:: ;)

So we need to try this on the next comp. :cheers:

When I was in college my best Chemistry grade came after a night of drinking and studying, therefore it will help the dancing.

[fascination]

fasc, do you think we could down a bottle among the two of us & peaches?

honestly, i'm too cheap a date.... two shots, i'm out :)OMG...are you serious?...what are you and peaches going to drink?

[fascination]

fasc, do you think we could down a bottle among the two of us & peaches?

honestly, i'm too cheap a date.... two shots, i'm out :)I am an expensive date...but I'm worth it:cool:

[samina]

roflmao... clearly, you're no cheap date. lol

[samina]

:cool:

[samina]

i'm the world's most expensive cheap date, tho... heh
course, one could take that a variety of ways... lol

[rjcbear]

Sam,

Fasc. does not like to share so I guess she like to have her own. So i guess we need some salt too... lol

[LucyDiamond]

:shock:

[samina]

i know that in some areas, fasc definitely does not like to share... heh.

[fascination]

booze and men are not areas for sharing...let the warning go out

[LucyDiamond]

duly noted...

[rjcbear]

i'm the world's most expensive cheap date, tho... heh
course, one could take that a variety of ways... lol

:raisebro: :shock:

[samina]

:cool::p

[rjcbear]

booze and men are not areas for sharing...let the warning go out

In that order?

[fascination]

duly noted...
ya know, you're my favorite LD;)

[fascination]

In that order?yes

[rjcbear]

:cool::p

Some Chai tea for you too.

[samina]

heading out for that zin, now... happy dancing everyone! :)

[rjcbear]

yes


Jose Cuervo on his way fasc.

[fascination]

BOT....happy standard waltzing...as god intended it

[fascination]

Jose Cuervo on his way fasc.he'd better be hot

[rjcbear]

he'd better be hot

He is one HOOOOOOOT guy. You will love it is that Latin thing you know.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Maybe instead of providing different American and International tracks from the beginning, it would make sense to teach the same basic waltz (and Viennese)? That is, first teaching natural/reverse turns and change steps and then letting people fork off into a chosen style.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I had no idea natural turns were so difficult. No wonder social dancing has been so frustrating for me.
It's been discussed before. :D

Why are natural turns easier than reverse turns? (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=14761)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

this sorta discussion makes my head spin. am so glad not a leader...
Well there's your problem - your head should be turning, not spinning. ;)

[etp777]

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of reason I currently avoid VW (and jive, etc) is that I just have a LOT of issues with dancing that fast. Or at least, I have in past. Sister and I were at a wedding last weekend, she dragged me on floor to dance. Left it up to me what to dance though, so I chose triple time. With how fast song was though, according to her, was a jive, not ecs (One of those times where I give in to the professional, I just provide a frame and a lead ;) )

[Terpsichorean Clod]

At AM, bronze 1 waltz patterns include the box step, open break and underarm turn, walk around turn, progressive change step, promenade (with or without develope), and a couple others. All are based on the box step, and most american style newcomer followers that I have run into can follow at least some of them. I suggest sticking to the figures listed with a follower who is just starting out. You may even need to stick with a subset - like just the box and the progressive change steps.

I believe that right turns box turns are part of the bronze 2 waltz syllabus. If they're not, then they're a variation in the bronze 1 syllabus. Newcomers won't know it. Continuity patterns (open natural, open reverse, streamline/run, etc.) are taught at bronze 3 and above - again, american style newcomers won't know it.

The things that I've found help to lead newcomers the most are:

Lead steps she's familiar with. This keeps her comfortable, and encourages her to keep trying. Corollary: If she won't follow a particular pattern, don't lead it.
Expect her to anticipate patterns, since she doesn't know to wait for each individual lead, yet.
Provide a good frame. As always, the better your frame, the better she'll follow.
Don't try to dance in body contact. American style isn't always taught to start in body contact, so dancing in body contact may just completely weird her out.
Do foot rise, but no body rise. Use minimal sway, and minimal swing. This helps her to change weight on steps 3 and 6.
Don't lead anything where you go backwards, and she has to step between your feet. If she's not used to stepping forward at you with her left foot, she'll be worried about stepping on your feet, and will either stop short, or will step way outside you.
Nice post, atk. I'm going to try to save this for future reference. I wish you'd post more often. :D

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of reason I currently avoid VW (and jive, etc) is that I just have a LOT of issues with dancing that fast. Or at least, I have in past. Sister and I were at a wedding last weekend, she dragged me on floor to dance. Left it up to me what to dance though, so I chose triple time. With how fast song was though, according to her, was a jive, not ecs (One of those times where I give in to the professional, I just provide a frame and a lead ;) )
That reminds me. I've been meaning to dig up this thread for some questions.
Viennese Waltz Difficult? (http://dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=13703)

[etp777]

Interesting, w ill read some more of that tomorrow, or rather later today, when I wake up. :)

Of course, while I've never looked at VW steps, from watching a lot of VW, I don't think Ishould even consider it until I can handle pivots (which a re what are my stickign point on Foxtrot right now). Watching a whole floor full of couples doing pivots around the floor so many times in VW, suspect I should work on that. :)

[tangotime]

The things that I've found help to lead newcomers the most are:

Provide a good frame. As always, the better your frame, the better she'll follow.
Don't try to dance in body contact. American style isn't always taught to start in body contact, so dancing in body contact may just completely weird her out.
Don't lead anything where you go backwards, and she has to step between your feet. If she's not used to stepping forward at you with her left foot, she'll be worried about stepping on your feet, and will either stop short, or will step way outside you.

Would have to disagree with the upper 3 points.

I know there are certain people who will disagree with some of what I am about to say-- but I put my multi yrs of teaching, in American and Intern style behind my statement.

1 -- The better the frame etc-- not true--- wish it was, its only a part of a much bigger picture, and is a simplistic answer to a complex problem

2--- This is the one that to my mind defies explanation-- yes -- we lnow one can lead without contact--- point is-- the sooner one starts to develop it in their students, the more quickly they will start to see results, in other basic variations-- teaching someone to do something for expediency, is not always the better way to get results .

3-- Again, if the student had been introduced to these situations early on, then hopefully the problems described, would not occur.

I have trained literally hundreds of A/M and F/A teachers-- without exception-- they always say how much easier it is ,to lead and follow even basic concepts, when in a closed position mode .

Why people treat the Intern. style and the Amer. style in basic foundational work ( smooth, and even some latin ) differently, makes little sense .

Much of this type of teaching , stems from the old days, when students were " held " back to some degree, and more complex teaching was discouraged. Also, having to deal with elderly ladies, who would repel the thought .

If a problem in dance exists-- then look at cause and effect principle.

This not to say, that all closed position movement is going to remedy all the existing problems ( I wish !! ). More importantly, it sets up the future .

I realise you were applying " your " theories , to a social setting-- however-- if these things were introduced earlier in their learning , then the above , might not be as much of a problem . .

Lastly-- the reason that most students are taught that way-- thats the way the teachers are trained !!

PS-- I have social classes here, and intro. closed hold on lesson 2-- never had a problem .

[fascination]

my last lesson TT I think bears your point regarding #2...I turn my head properly in fallaway and weave only when in contact...I cannot help but feel it then...

[fascination]

I would also echo the point that when in closed, pormenade, outside partner, or fallaway, in either style it is the same and we dance in contact

[tangotime]

Head " positioning " can be for effect, or for more technical reasons ( as in Fallaway slip pivot for e.g. ,when closed is maintained )

The old axiom-- " when in doubt- leave it closed " , is the safeguard, when unsure .

[Larinda McRaven]

Maybe instead of providing different American and International tracks from the beginning, it would make sense to teach the same basic waltz (and Viennese)? That is, first teaching natural/reverse turns and change steps and then letting people fork off into a chosen style.

That is what I do. And from there most people choose American simply because they like the idea of apart movements and assume that International will be boring. But I start them off down the same path.

And I do the same for tango. Basic walks (with an optional tango close) to open reverse turn is the beginning sequence I give them.

[atk]

Nice post, atk. I'm going to try to save this for future reference. I wish you'd post more often. :D

*grin * thanks. I lurk here, quite a bit. I don't post much for fear of giving away the truth: I don't really know much, don't have much dancing experience, and don't want to come across as a fool :)

[atk]

Would have to disagree with the upper 3 points.
1 -- The better the frame etc-- not true--- wish it was, its only a part of a much bigger picture, and is a simplistic answer to a complex problem


OK, I think I can see that. But, without a frame, is it not vastly harder to lead/follow?


2--- This is the one that to my mind defies explanation-- yes -- we lnow one can lead without contact--- point is-- the sooner one starts to develop it in their students, the more quickly they will start to see results, in other basic variations-- teaching someone to do something for expediency, is not always the better way to get results .

3-- Again, if the student had been introduced to these situations early on, then hopefully the problems described, would not occur.

...

Why people treat the Intern. style and the Amer. style in basic foundational work ( smooth, and even some latin ) differently, makes little sense .

Much of this type of teaching , stems from the old days, when students were " held " back to some degree, and more complex teaching was discouraged. Also, having to deal with elderly ladies, who would repel the thought .

Agreed - these issues are caused by the teaching style. Different goals - not that I think either one is really right and the other wrong. Both have their place. AM (and I suspect FA) thrive on wedding couples, whose need is expediency. I strongly suspect that this has a huge effect upon their teaching style. Places that don't need to focus on expediency can take the time to focus on technique.

But, is there a danger of losing students by focusing too much on technique? I mean, someone who just wants to get up and dance isn't going to stay for months of strictly technique before they can go out to a social event.


I realise you were applying " your " theories , to a social setting-- however-- if these things were introduced earlier in their learning , then the above , might not be as much of a problem . .
True, I'm speaking from my limited experience, in the limited settings to which I've been. :) Of course, if technique is started from teh very very beginning, then people will either have to wait until they can do the technique before they go social dancing (which I doubt everyone would) or they would have to go social dancing before they really learn technique. So there would still be some number of people that haven't yet learned to follow, for whom special consideration must be made, if one is to have an enjoyable dance.