Aggrivated by cha-cha-cha

[danceguy]

I had a strange thing happen last night when I was out dancing. For the past few months I've been doing nothing but Salsa...every other style of dance that I knew got put on the back burner for a while, some perhaps indefinitely.

I originally learned cha-cha in Ballroom class, but again when I saw it in the clubs for the first time I realized how little I actually knew. I ended up dancing one last night...and I just couldn't get into it. The music seemed WAY too slow...and even though I know how to dance it on1, I just couldn't groove at all. :headwall:

I breathed a sigh of relief when the next song was a good tempo Salsa...but even dancing that one cha cha made my Salsa dancing seem off for the next few minutes.

Hmm...perhaps I need to brush up my cha-cha...but for some reason it just didn't do much for me last night...can anyone relate to this?

I guess Salsa fever is about doing nothing but Salsa...

Sounds good to me. :P

[Sagitta]

Actually I want to get back into cha cha so I am no help here. This Israeli-Latin folk dancing that I am into has a lot of cha cha moves and so that will eb some help. And when cha cha's come on I take someone out on the floor and teach a few moves. I'm going to convert that Tuesday club of dancers into people who will cha cha. No pity/empathy from me!! :)

[brujo]

As far as I know ( from the josie neglia tape, at least ), club style cha-cha is supposed to be done on the two. But that's besides the point.

I completely disagree with you that salsa fever is about doing nothing but salsa. It is interesting that people would brag that salsa is the culmination of merengue, bachata, cha-cha, danzon, rumba, hustle, tap and all these other dances, and yet never bother to at least try them out to see what they have to offer.

I learned merengue at the same time I learned salsa, but merengue was always easier at the time. I could do fancy wraps and dips in merengue and never did have to worry about the timing. Once I started to learn and get into more salsa, I started to see how the hip movements in merengue are really nicely incorporated into salsa. And it allows me to do cuban moves on unsuspecting NY / LA style dancers.

I suspect that what you felt might have been that initial shock of trying to remember all those cha-cha steps again. What's the rhythm? Which foot do I go forward on? What is the beat? Is it on 1 or on 2? You said it yourself, salsa has dominated your life for a long time. But once you start to try out the other dances, you will start to see how you can slowly get into it. When I first started to play with cha-cha, it was horrible. No idea about the rhythm, no clue about how to move, etc. But as I started to try it out more and more, I have started to notice the difference between the smooth salsa connection and the forced break that the triple step brings into the dancing. It almost forces you avoid all the fancy double spins and try to see what you can do with momentum shifts, footwork and plain old eye contact, smiling and being able to carry a conversation during the dance.

Ultimately, the more styles of dance you know, the easier you can dance and connect with both the music and your partners For example, I am learning a bit more about guaguanco and the afro cuban dances. As you get into the moves, you start seeing both the spiritual connotation that the dancing can take, as well as the trance that can be induced by the rhythm and the drums. Something that might well be hidden in our typical view of salsa and learning turn patterns. So fear not the different flavours, try them all out.

[danceguy]

Hi Brujo,

Hmm, I think part of it was the last time I did cha-cha the lady I was dancing with showed me how to dance it on2. Most of the dancers I see do it on1...and I don't think either one is right or wrong. There's almost mostly on1 Salsa around here, but a lot of the advanced folks do on2.

We were talking about the other dances in another thread...I've done some Merengue but don't care much for it and I am going to learn Bachata. I started out studying every dance form I could...and then settled on one so I could become proficient.

As you get into the moves, you start seeing both the spiritual connotation that the dancing can take, as well as the trance that can be induced by the rhythm and the drums.

Hey, you're starting to sound like Boriken. :wink:

[redhead]

Brujo... what's danzon?

[brujo]

Brujo... what's danzon?

Description from Salsaroots (http://www.salsacrazy.com/salsaroots/rootsdanzon.htm).

The main page also has a video

http://www.salsacrazy.com/salsaroots/dance_styles.htm

[brujo]

As you get into the moves, you start seeing both the spiritual connotation that the dancing can take, as well as the trance that can be induced by the rhythm and the drums.

Hey, you're starting to sound like Boriken. :wink:

Actually, a lot of the afro cuban movements are rooted in the Regla Lucumi, or santeria. The movements are meant as a way of invoking the Gods. In fact, when you choreograph a lot of those moves, there are certain things that you must not do for the sake of avoiding a possession by a Orisha. Hence the spiritual connotation aspect of the dance. So yes, they are actual spirits that can be invoked and called upon by the dances. A lot of the Afro moves are associated with a particular Orisha, and they take on a particular personal trait of the saint.

http://w3.iac.net/~moonweb/Santeria/TOC.html

[pygmalion]

eek! Santeria? I had no idea. It's amazing the thing you learn in DF.

But, speaking of things, the cha cha's they play in salsa clubs are a little on the slow and syrupy side for my taste (oops ballroom girl strikes again :shock: :oops: :lol: ). But even so, a nice slow cha cha is a cool way to work it! I mean work the technique, work the Latin motion, the whole nine yards. 8)

[borikensalsero]

Hey SG... It seems that I agree with a lot of what Brujo says and disagree with a lot of it as well....


I know exactly where you are coming from with the Cha Cha... Something that is a fact about a hardcore/100% salsero, is that he will reluctantly dance any other dance, other than salsa. He will reluctantly do anything that doesn’t include salsa. Hence, the label of Salsa as a lifestyle, not just a person who likes salsa and dances it along with other dances. It is salsa first, second, third, forth, fifth, until you die, the rest of the stuff are after thoughts. Not because you are snob and think salsa I the greatest, which it can very well be, but because it is the one thing that you absolutely love and it loves you right back. So, why would I deny you of saying, hey salsa is my soul-mate and it doesn’t matter how many other women I meet, salsa is going to be it... always before the rest. I can’t deny you that, nor the idea that it might very well be the road you choose to travel.

The problem you have has nothing to do with being a salsero, nor not knowing the dance. It has to do with your musical taste maturity and what influences need to be in the music for you to like or care to dance to it. It seems that the problems you are going through with salsa, merengue, bachata are the same I went through.

I used to detest cha cha cha, but I always knew that it was because I just didn't have the taste of it, salsa was just so much livelier, it steered so much emotion. All my instructors knew that I didn’t like it. It seemed that every person I danced with salsa wanted to cha cha with me. They would always say that if I was that smooth dancing salsa I had to be a heck of a cha cha dancer. Well, guess what, not until about 6 months ago my body finally reacted to cha cha, now I love the stuff, I admire it for it coming from danzon, and guaguanco to what it is now, a dance to be sensual to and a relative of salsa to which I must be good to. Appreciation for it finally settled in me, now it isn’t to say that it will for you. But I understand whole-heartedly where you are coming from and all I ask is not to force anything, not the music nor the dance let it come to you. When you are ready it will come to you.

Now to the Orishas… You can not and will not bring down a santo even if you dance exactly as per the dance calls it for. You can not evoke something that you aren’t ready to evoke mentally. Not physically but mentally. And it isn’t you being ready, but the santo knowing that you are ready, it isn’t something you choose, it is something that happens. You can try to bring Ochun down the rest of your life with dances and rituals and you might very well never do. Chances are that if you are doing these things you are becoming ready little by little… But Why not? Because wanting and being ready to for something aren’t the same, and again you don’t choose being ready, it chooses you. It is erroneous belief that a lot of people have of yeah, I am going to do this and it will invoke Obatala. Not so… Obatala knows that you are ready, and it will then come down, and being ready doesn’t start in this lifetime, it started a long time ago… For those people who it happens to just by sitting down and playing the sacred drums of Regla de Ocho, those people have been ready all their lives, all that was needed was the setting, and the drums were the medium to the Orishas… Blah blah blah

And why a choreography will never bring an Orisha down, unless the individuals involved know and are ready for it, and why those people would watch out not to bring a saint down in a middle of a performance. You and I have nothing to worry about… more blah blah blah…

The rest of the stuff Brujo is right on point with.

Danzon is a Cuban dance derived from the French Danza. You could say it’s the classics of latin music…

[pygmalion]

Now to the Orishas… You can not and will not bring down a santo even if you dance exactly as per the dance calls it for.

And why a choreography will never bring an Orisha down, unless the individuals involved know and are ready for it, and why those people would watch out not to bring a saint down in a middle of a performance. You and I have nothing to worry about… more blah blah blah…



I won't comment on the salsa/cha cha conversation. I'll leave that to all you other salseros, who handle this stuff much better than I do.

But as far as santeria. You have to admit it can be quite scary, if you don't understand the religion and culture. I was first exposed to it in West Africa and yikes! :shock: But still, you're right, it's more an emotional and spiritual experience. I doubt that the dance by itself will call up any spirits.

[Vince A]

I think you just need to work yourself back into it, that's all!

I agree with the 1 and 2 mix-up though . . . for months I've been "debating" (with Jonathan) about breaking on 2 with Salsa. Now that i have discoverd that it should and works much better by breaking on 1, I've discovered that my cha cha suffered.

I break on two in cha cha, and the suffering has gone away . . . I just had to get back into it . . .started with slower songs and worked my way up the tempo line. Both dances "feel" OK now . . . give it a chance and go back and dance a few more cha cha's . . .

[borikensalsero]

As you get into the moves, you start seeing both the spiritual connotation that the dancing can take, as well as the trance that can be induced by the rhythm and the drums. Something that might well be hidden in our typical view of salsa and learning turn patterns. So fear not the different flavours, try them all out.


One of the things brujo and I agree on is this very fact; The message has been lost in translation. That is what percussion music is and was all about; the reaching of a higher ground. But how can we expect someone who has no idea about the meaning and history of his music/dance if he doesn't educate himself in it? All he can do is teach the illusion caused by the eyes of dance moves, patterns, and steps... He will watch, then learn and eventually pass on what a car looks like, what it should do, but never how the engine works, why its doing what its doing and when it should be done.

There is an underlying philosophy in salsa, of which I’ve been mocked about with something like a make-belief magic spark. Well, there is the spark… that is the too new age thing I talk about. It isn’t only in Rumba (Yambu/Guaguanco/Columbia), or Regla Ocho dancing, it is in salsa too… It is in any percussion driven music. It is that spirituality that isn’t passed from teacher to student. If the teacher doesn’t know about it all he can pass on is the illusion of what salsa dancing is about. Then the student becomes a teacher and starts teaches more make belief, more illusion, more steps, more patterns, and less underlying spiritual togetherness… Then 30 years down the line we have the inbreeding of egotistical dancers who think, fast spins, highflying women, is the pinnacle of salsa and its philosophy… Forgetting that there is something magical that puts you in a trance when you dance it… Then attributing that magic to steps well taken, moves well done and technique.

[borikensalsero]

But as far as santeria. You have to admit it can be quite scary, if you don't understand the religion and culture. I was first exposed to it in West Africa and yikes! :shock: But still, you're right, it's more an emotional and spiritual experience. I doubt that the dance by itself will call up any spirits.

yeap, it can be very scary if you aren't used to it. The customs are just so different. But it is no different than christianity was at its beginning. It just never really advanced itself with times like other religions did.

On to the dancing. If you know what you are doing, the dance is all that is needed to ivoke the spirits, but if you don't. You can bend backwards and grow roots out of your ears with bata drums and nothing will happen.

I used to be so afraid of santeria, being born in a latin country and being surrounded by it only led to fear. But after learning about it, and having family members deeply involved in it explained the ins and outs and why things are done the way they are. It stopped being that scary. But I can still remember myself afraid at night thinking of mean santeros, my scary neighbor and the things should could do... :cry: Now.... Its all a state of mind.

[danceguy]

Wow, this has become a very interesting thread.

I believe the main reason for my aggrivation was that the cha cha I originally learned was in Ballroom school, same with Salsa. After my new conversion to club style Salsa, when I try and do cha cha, what I rely upon is my old training which makes me look like a moron when trying to dance a cha-cha in a club setting.

I always loved cha-cha-cha before...so after time and learning more of it I'm sure I will fall in love with it again.

To sum it up: My cha-cha sucks! :oops:

Boriken - Thank you for sharing a bit about the spirituality and culture of Latin music...that is something I would like to study. It is an understatement to say that I was raised very untraditionally, and have had much exposure to similiar traditions for my entire life.

A foot in each world, between heaven and earth. :wink:

[brujo]

Now to the Orishas… You can not and will not bring down a santo even if you dance exactly as per the dance calls it for.



Trance Possession or The Mounting of the Horse:

Trance possession or "the mounting of the horse" plays a vital role
in Santeria. It is not too dissimilar to the Wiccan tradition of
drawing down the moon where witches unite their essence with that
of their chosen deity. In the mounting of the horse, a drumming party
or bembe' is given for the orishas and the orishas are then
invited down to enter the body of one of the priests dedicated to that
orisha. Being mounted by an orisha is considered a great honor and
blessing and is often described as a profound feeling of joy, spiritual
awareness and enthralling sense of wisdom and oneness.

Orishas rarely possess a neophyte or an aleyo, one who has not
been initiated as a priest. In those rare instances where they do, it
is usually to indicate this person should become a priest or priestess.

[ http://www.paganism.com/ag/gods/santa.html ]

It happens. The problem with such posessions is that for someone who is not initiated, they don't know how the person's capacity to hold on to the Orisha and there are not knowledgeable santeros around to help out. The choreography bit comes from a Cuban teacher I have who has seen it happen.

[pygmalion]

:shock: :shock: Eeek! I'm not cha-cha -ing anymore. Just kidding.

Actually, it's quite cool to learn about what's going on behind the dances that we take so casually. If more people understood the origins of those dances, maybe they'd stop focusing so much on the steps and start putting more expressiveness in their dance.

[borikensalsero]

Now to the Orishas… You can not and will not bring down a santo even if you dance exactly as per the dance calls it for.



Trance Possession or The Mounting of the Horse:

Trance possession or "the mounting of the horse" plays a vital role
in Santeria. It is not too dissimilar to the Wiccan tradition of
drawing down the moon where witches unite their essence with that
of their chosen deity. In the mounting of the horse, a drumming party
or bembe' is given for the orishas and the orishas are then
invited down to enter the body of one of the priests dedicated to that
orisha. Being mounted by an orisha is considered a great honor and
blessing and is often described as a profound feeling of joy, spiritual
awareness and enthralling sense of wisdom and oneness.

Orishas rarely possess a neophyte or an aleyo, one who has not
been initiated as a priest. In those rare instances where they do, it
is usually to indicate this person should become a priest or priestess.

[ http://www.paganism.com/ag/gods/santa.html ]

It happens. The problem with such posessions is that for someone who is not initiated, they don't know how the person's capacity to hold on to the Orisha and there are not knowledgeable santeros around to help out. The choreography bit comes from a Cuban teacher I have who has seen it happen.

I'll never question that it can happen... Family members have first hand experience that it can happen as you have laid it out, but you have also just laid out a great scenario with people that might know what they are doing and are, per se, ready for it. A person doesn’t stumble upon anything, they’ve come across for a reason, that someone is there to help or not isn’t of concern to why it must happen. More over it is very unlikely to happen to a bunch of dancers who don't even know that they are doing Chango's steps... Their minds and souls are closed to that path, and as any santero will tell you, if the person is closed to this path, you are wasting your time doing anything to them, for them, or with them... It takes more than a sacred ritual to get a santo down by a bunch of dancers. However, if we were able to achieve so, some dancers could become "possessed" while others wouldn’t. READINESS... The key word here is that it CAN happen. Not that it will automatically happen… It is a matter of happening, when it happens, and why it happens, not just the logical formation of events which could lead, but don’t necessarily to a given goal. The goal isn’t the issue here, but they path.

You took the sentence of out of context, it needs the following couple to make the point I wanted to make of readiness... Only readiness will make it happen...

[Vince A]

Hm-m-m-m-m-m-m-m . . . I have to re-read this . . .

[pygmalion]

Yup. It gets deep. There's the "I'm a salsero, so only salsa will do," thread. Then there's the "cha cha and other dancers have largely unexplored complexities," thread. Good stuff.

[youngsta]

I am by far a hardcore salsero and I love cha cha cha! The moves so easily translate between the two that it seems like second nature.