An advanced guy ... or an advanced girl?

[pygmalion]

What do you think? If you have a couple dancing or competing together, what's the best combination? An advanced lead with an inexperienced follow? Or an advanced follow with an inexperienced lead?


Why? :wink: :D

[dancin_feet]

I would say advance lead, definitely. If you have an advanced lead, he can get you through just about anything, but an advanced follow cannot make the lead do his job.

[Sagitta]

I've seen both combinations. An advanced lead works better, but I like the idea of the advanced follow. That way more of you guys would want to dance with me. :) So, if any of you out there think advanced followers are better give a shout!!

[dancin_feet]

I was thinking more along the lines of competing. In a social situation, it doesn't matter. Either way someone is teaching someone else. It's just easier for an advanced lead to teach rather than the follow trying to teach the lead.

[Vin]

Wow this is a tough one for me, at first I was tempted to say having an advanced lead is better because learning to lead is alot tougher, but then I realized a great leader can be made quite quickly by having proper instruction maybe even from videos and having a great follow there to tell him how it is supposed to feel. This is the way I am learning to become a great lead.
However it takes years to develop a really great follow. Not the run-of the-mill good follow that most women become after a bit of practice, but the really great follow that follows everything you give her, planned or not. When following, issues such as balance and inherent sexiness come into play alot more than for the lead. This is the sort of thing that I have had trouble helping women with when I have been teaching them. Most of the great follows I have danced with have been dancing for years, often they took ballet when they were younger.
I guess it comes down to this for me,
a great lead can be made by a great follow but a really great follow has alot more to work out for herself.

[bordertangoman]

I would say advance lead, definitely. If you have an advanced lead, he can get you through just about anything, but an advanced follow cannot make the lead do his job.

i agree with this; a perpetual problem in getting the leaders up to a level where they can dance in a relaxed way with so much to think about. As a lead the novice follower can pick up a lot from an advacned lead but not the otherway around.

[Vince A]

I'm one of those ones who will say the advanced follow, but it really depends on the persons involved. Two examples . . .

My Pro is, obviously a Pro, and I am not. However, she does not backlead at all, nor would she ever think of it. Her men "lead." She is there in the event our lead is just not right though, and can compensate with her body and/or feet to make up that difference and make the move/pattern come out looking first class. She is a great follow.

My wife, Carolyn, is an advanced dancer. There are very, very few people who can make her mess up on the dance floor. She is also a great follow. She never anticipates, and she is always there. Of course there are some of those 32 count moves in WCS that could throw off anybody, but she does get through it without getting hurt.

I am an Intermediate level dancer. I have drawn sandbaggers, or "advanced level" dancers who signed up as intermediates in Jack and Jills. I danced much better with them because they were better, and I felt that balance between the two of us. On the other hand, I have drawn "intermediate level" dancers, that because they thought that they were better than they really were (should have been novice), had signed as intermediates in Jack and Jill . . . and we fought each other the entire dance We finished the dance doing just "the basics."

My point being, that both of these dancers make you feel like dancing better, and I believe I do because they are more advanced than I am. Both of them a quite capable of dancing up or down to the level of their partner, although this can also be said of the advanced lead.

I don't think that you could draw any conclusions with saying one has an advantage over the other.

[Vin]

I need to specify some more, in my opinion with raw beginners it is definitely better for the leader to be more advanced, however once you get to the stage where you are both passable dancers, then having an advanced follow becomes much more important.

[brujo]

A link is worth about 10 words.

http://www.tosalsa.com/videogallery/2003/video_berlin00_fun.htm

[pygmalion]

Ten words and one huge laugh! I loved the clip, brujo! 8)

I've seen something similar at a ballroom competition -- not as extreme -- but the amateur couple who won their division was mismatched, big time. He basically just stood there while she danced. Fortunately, they were doing American smooth, so she didn't have to stay attached to him. She looked great -- arm styling, eye contact with the audience, showmanship. The whole nine yards. And they won.

[salsachinita]

a great lead can be made by a great follow but a really great follow has alot more to work out for herself.

Wow, am I glad to hear this, Vin.

After years of dancing & quite a bit of hard work during the recent years, I am finally able to be a good follow 8) . (notice I'm not saying GREAT)

Having received lots of positive feedbacks (AND still going through my current transformation/soul searching), I realised that I've out-grown many leaders in my time (in terms of me learning anything off them).

It's good to know that I have the potential to share what I know to produce great leaders for the future.

This thought makes my night 8) !

[Taita]

(WARNING: Long Post)

This is a tough one....

Both are essential and both rely heavily on each other. Ideally, you would like to see both, but if I had to pick one, I think it is more important to have a strong leader. Yes, a good follower can make a leader dance better. However, good leaders must be able to do the following:

1. Listen to the music and dictate the 'feel' of the dance.

Yes, followers must hear the music too, but the leader must set the tone and feel of the dance.

2. Know what to lead.

Learning leadable patterns is a skill which can take years to learn. A good leader not only knows his part, but knows the followers part so well they know exactly where she needs to be and be able to adjust if she's not at the right place. I have found it is not necessary for a good follower to know the leaders part. In addition to knowing the pattern, leaders have to takes into account a variety of factors, like the music, his ability to lead, her ability to follow, and floorcraft. If the choreography is interrupted and needs to be picked up again, it is up to the leader to determine where it happens. Factor in a follower who doesn't know the patterns and executing them together into cohesive choreography people begin to appreciate the miracle that is two people dancing together :D . A good follower can only do what is being lead. No matter how great the follower is, if the leader only leads an awkward closed position basic step or worse, doesn't move at all, a follower can only add so much :cry: .
Yes, a good follower can make a bad leader somewhat passable, but simply cannot 'carry' a couple the way a good leader can.

3. Dance

This is not as simple as it sounds. A good leader is also a good dancer. Being a good leader means being able to lead well. This can only come from good technique combined with quality of movement. Factor in the ability to lead and dance and you begin to see why there is a lack of good leaders. A good leader will also be connected with their partner, but also give enough space to allow both to enhance the partnership. Not an easy balance to attain.


There is also a subtle difference between leading a pattern and enhancing a pattern and is rather difficult to explain. Yes, following is an intricate skill that can take years to master. However, in my experience, if you put a great follower with a good leader and you will see a good leader rise above what they are capable of. Put a great follower with a great leader and you will see a great follower going well beyond what they can attain by themselves as part of an exciting, dynamic couple.

back to lurk mode...

[pygmalion]

That's an interesting perspective, Taita. I have heard a few people express the opposite, but I think you make a great point. If the guy is a hopeless and/or restrictive lead, there's anothing the girl can do, no matter how talented she is. Hmm. :?

[youngsta]

I'd put my money on the advanced follower. If you have a solid lead and a decent sized bucket of moves the advanced follower will make you (and her) shine, shine, shine!! If you make mistakes, she'll adlib and cover them. If you're doing basic patterns, she'll make those shine too. She can follow anything you've got! Remember most eyes will be on her anyway.

The advanced lead can't make up for a lesser follower's mistakes. Yeah so his lead is perfect, but that doesn't mean she can make it through the move gracefully. He'll also have to cut his book of moves down becuase if he gets too advanced with the patterns things will probably go WAY wrong! And again, most eyes will be on her.

[pygmalion]

What did you think of peachexploration's salsa congress clip, youngsta?

Oh yeah, and do you think maybe it depends on the dance you're doing. Like, things that are open or solo, an advanced girl is better, things that are closed or in body contact, an advanced lead is better?

I'm asking because I think it's really interesting to see different people's answers in light of their dance backgrounds.

Not drawing any conclusions. Just asking what you think. :?

[NeoDevin]

Well, if everything goes as planned, I'll be dancing with a more advanced follow. Someone remind me of this thread in half a year, and I'll let you know how it goes.

[tsb]

a great lead can be made by a great follow but a really great follow has alot more to work out for herself.

i submit all that all that leader will do is learn how to lead that particular follower with minimal force & effort. practicing with beginners is the litmus test that indicates how clear & unambiguous one's lead is.

example: follower to do a right (underarm) turn in closed position; with the most adept followers i get by with a slight rolling of my right palm (wrist to fingers) against their shoulder blade and off they go. i try that with a beginner and nothing will happen, other than puzzled looks on both our parts "why didn't you turn?" "why are you looking at me like i didn't do what you expected me to do?" but if i guide that partner by maintaining contact with her shoulder blade until her back is facing me along with her right hand in my left hand polishing the inside of the halo over her head it's unlikely that she'll misinterpret my intent.

moreover, anyone dancing only with advanced followers won't develop other skills that make a good leader - such as dancing to the level on one's partner - and knowing how to discern that skill level without forcing that partner uncomfortably beyond that skill level.

i have to vote for advanced lead. having to both lead and follow for teaching i find following to take less effort (once i can get past the muscle memory and start on the correct foot!) - but that is not to diminish the value of great following skills. still, a guy has to know both his footwork AND the followers and lead AND follow - especially when the follower does something unexpected and he wants to make it look like that's what he intended all along so as to maximize the graceful appearance of his partner...

in most of the advanced classes i've seen lately, there have been more men than women - because women are learning more quickly from dancing with advanced leads outside of class and have less motivation to continue in class.