View Full Version : Ohio Star Ball Entry Fees
croaker
10-01-2007, 11:54 AM
I believe somebody has already asked this question before, so
my apologies for bringing it up again. I've searched all over the OSB website
I cannot find any mention of how much we should pay for the entry fees.
I printed out the registration forms and looked over all of the pdf's available on the website
but I cannot figure it out. Anyone might be able to shed some light on this mystery
I would much apprecite it! :notworth:
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 12:46 PM
Croaker,
They usually do not publish the prices as you know studios charge some extras. Probably you can call the organizer and they can send you a package.
fascination
10-01-2007, 12:52 PM
Croaker,
They usually do not publish the prices as you know studios charge some extras. Probably you can call the organizer and they can send you a package.
exactly...
though fwiw closed pro am was 30 or 35 a single dance heat (can't remember now)...and pkg S (the supreme pkg..wed-sun) without hotel was 595
croaker
10-01-2007, 12:53 PM
Croaker,
They usually do not publish the prices as you know studios charge some extras. Probably you can call the organizer and they can send you a package.
Ah, so that's the reason... Didn't occur to me.:???:
I emailed them, hopefully will hear back from someone soon, thanks!
gingerbread
10-01-2007, 01:51 PM
Ah, so that's the reason... Didn't occur to me.:???:
I emailed them, hopefully will hear back from someone soon, thanks!
I called and did get them to email me a price list, so hopefully they will do that for you also. I wish they would forget this nonsense of only showing prices to the professional, it is so childish, and, I feel, insulting. Oh well..l the ballroom/studio world likes to treat ProAms like naive chlldren; thank goodnes most of our pros do not treat us that way.
croaker
10-01-2007, 02:32 PM
I called and did get them to email me a price list, so hopefully they will do that for you also. I wish they would forget this nonsense of only showing prices to the professional, it is so childish, and, I feel, insulting. Oh well..l the ballroom/studio world likes to treat ProAms like naive chlldren; thank goodnes most of our pros do not treat us that way.
Got the email too, agree with you 100%!
I remember a couple of years back all the prices/packages were online, everything
above the board.
mamboqueen
10-01-2007, 02:43 PM
You would think it would just make their lives simpler not to have extraneous phone calls...I thought websites were designed, in part, to minimize the need for people to call for info.
croaker
10-01-2007, 02:56 PM
You would think it would just make their lives simpler not to have extraneous phone calls...I thought websites were designed, in part, to minimize the need for people to call for info.
You'd think that but...
It reminds me of a receptionist at my dentist office - she was always writing down appointments in a huge notebook (the paper type, not the electronic one). Then
they finally got on with the times and bought software to schedule appointments etc.
Now she's both writing it down in the notebook and entering the info in the computer.
Progress, it's just unstoppable.
:p
kayak
10-01-2007, 03:09 PM
Actually, I would be really pissed at my studio if they charged me extra beyond the normal registration fee along with the fees per dance and extra lessons/practice etc.
Kind of makes me feel like I am being managed. Never done well with anyone trying to make decisions for me. To much money changing hands to be blind to all the goings on involved.
fascination
10-01-2007, 04:36 PM
well to play devil's advocate...the headache and the honesty, imo, should be btwn the pro and the student not the organizer and the student...and any studio that can't explain their itemization has an issue...I can see organizers wanting to stay out of having to send pricing to students....they send one pakage to pro...instead of 12 to his students..and imo, if the pro can't show you the price list and explain the extra costs...there is a problem
my pro is wonderful about all that!!! BUT, I have heard and seen first hand how it is when everything isn't on the up and up. I just think it should all be public knowledge. Then, everyone can deal with the rest individually..
fascination
10-01-2007, 05:06 PM
agree...but all the student has to say is: "you have the package right?" can I see the price list for the heats, scholarships, and packages so I can decide?...I know your expenses will be separate and feel free to let me know what they are when you figre them out...but for now, can I just see that sheet and jot a few things down?"....studios have lots of fair reasons for expenses...but itf they can't show you the cost sheet, IMo, that is a problem w/ the studio not the organizer...and I can see how organizers would rather divorce themselves from that whole process...I too am fortunate to have a pro who is more that comfortable with full disclosure
fascination
10-01-2007, 05:09 PM
and, ftr...at the risk of sounding like I am pandering...I think ohio is about the best priced comp for the buck and I rather doubt too many would disagree
fascination
10-01-2007, 05:10 PM
than again liz...so is hotlanta
I can see your point and your right. Sometimes it is just better to just out of it. As for comp being fairly priced. This is my first time competing at most of them. Never been to Ohio. It is dream come true for me. Remember seeing it I tv as kid and thinking how great it would be to get to dress up like a princess. We as are all very lucky to be involved with ballroom, don't you THI k?
croaker
10-01-2007, 05:40 PM
well to play devil's advocate...the headache and the honesty, imo, should be btwn the pro and the student not the organizer and the student...and any studio that can't explain their itemization has an issue...I can see organizers wanting to stay out of having to send pricing to students....they send one pakage to pro...instead of 12 to his students..and imo, if the pro can't show you the price list and explain the extra costs...there is a problem
I fail to see the validity of this point in my case, sorry. I don't dance pro-am and any of the several teachers that my partner and I are taking lessons from would probably be rather surprised if we expected them to fill out our competition registration forms etc. It just doesn't seem like it's in their job description, and I never heard of teachers doing
it for their adult amateur students.
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 05:40 PM
I will not be dress like a princess but I sure will be honor to have one princess in my arm as I take her to the dance floor.
I think all of us are the luckiest of them all because of our involvement with Ballroom.
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 05:43 PM
I fail to see the validity of this point in my case, sorry. I don't dance pro-am and any of the several teachers that my partner and I are taking lessons from would probably be rather surprised if we expected them to fill out our competition registration forms etc. It just doesn't seem like it's in their job description, and I never heard of teachers doing
it for their adult amateur students.
Well if you do pro /am it is their job. But if you only do am/am then that is your job as I see it.
syncopationator
10-01-2007, 05:45 PM
I don't dance pro-am
this is why you wouldn't find that point valid.
Part of the pro's job in pro/am is to send the entries and payment to the organizer for all of his/her students.
croaker
10-01-2007, 05:47 PM
I must tell you it is their Job to fill all the paper work for you. In our studio all we have to do is pay for the comp and just show up. Our pros will get all the information for us and when we get to the hotel we will have our numbers, tickets, heat list giving to us.
We might be spoiled but as far as know the pro and the studio does everything.
Well, I guess the difference is, we're taking lessons from the independent pro's,
not from the studio. I can't imagine myself going to (just to take an example out of thin air)
Charlotte Jorgenson and asking her - "Hey, can you do my registration for the OSB competition?" :)
samina
10-01-2007, 05:48 PM
my pro is wonderful about all that!!! BUT, I have heard and seen first hand how it is when everything isn't on the up and up. I just think it should all be public knowledge. Then, everyone can deal with the rest individually..
i'll second that one, liz
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 05:49 PM
Charlotte Jorgenson and asking her - "Hey, can you do my registration for the OSB competition?" :)
If she is your pro and you take lesson from her in regular basis and you will compete with her in a pro / am I think she will not have any problem doing it. But that is just my opinion.
I must tell you it is their Job to fill all the paper work for you. In our studio all we have to do is pay for the comp and just show up. Our pros will get all the information for us and when we get to the hotel we will have our numbers, tickets, heat list giving to us.
We might be spoiled but as far as know the pro and the studio does everything.
This wouldn't/doesn't work for me at all! Quite often I arrive at the competition before my pro does. If I've paid for a package that includes a daytime ticket and a program and possibly a meal ticket, and my pro isn't scheduled to arrive until the evening, I'm sure as heck not going to just sit in the lobby because I'm supposed to "wait for my pro" to get my stuff for me. Organizers may dislike having to pick my stuff out of the studio packet, but I always thank them profusely and offer to sign a receipt, and they usually oblige and give me the items I need - I've paid for them, after all. (There was only comp organizer who refused to release my stuff until my pro arrived - and I will not be attending the competition again.)
And I fall into the camp of those who want the comp website to include all the information about the comp - including the prices. Heck, if I'm the one who is paying for the comp, I don't want to have to hunt and beg for information.
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 06:01 PM
Cal,
We must be very lucky because the pros arrive way before we do they are usually at the competition location by 3 or 4 in the afternoon the day before the competition.
Most of us will arrive and leave for the comps after work if we can drive to the competition.
croaker
10-01-2007, 06:04 PM
If she is your pro and you take lesson from her in regular basis and you will compete with her in a pro / am I think she will not have any problem doing it. But that is just my opinion.
I don't do pro/am. There are other kinds of competitions outside of pro/am.
Why do I get all these replies with the presupposition that there're no competitions
aside from pro/am ?
OSB is not pro/am only competition, so my whole point is, it's rather strange that an amateur doesn't have an easy access to the information required for the registration.
SDsalsaguy
10-01-2007, 06:11 PM
I don't do pro/am. There are other kinds of competitions outside of pro/am.
Why do I get all these replies with the presupposition that there're no competitions
aside from pro/am ?
OSB is not pro/am only competition, so my whole point is, it's rather strange that an amateur doesn't have an easy access to the information required for the registration.
Sorry croaker, but the fact of the matter is that pro-am is the lifeblood of the American ballroom industry, and that the OSB is the largest pro-am event in the world. It therefore only makes sense that the OSB is set up in relation to this dance demographic, no?
Cal,
We must be very lucky because the pros arrive way before we do they are usually at the competition location by 3 or 4 in the afternoon the day before the competition.
Most of us will arrive and leave for the comps after work if we can drive to the competition.
Oh - I'm just one of those control freaks who likes to take care of my own stuff. I'd probably feel unlucky if I had pros who tried to take care of absolutely everything for me. Too independent for my own good sometimes!
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 06:13 PM
Most of the big competitions are pro/am yes they do have am/am competitions but the number of entries is small compare to the pro/am entries.
IMO that is what organizer send one package to a studio and be done with it.
croaker
10-01-2007, 06:19 PM
Sorry croaker, but the fact of the matter is that pro-am is the lifeblood of the American ballroom industry, and that the OSB is the largest pro-am event in the world. It therefore only makes sense that the OSB is set up in relation to this dance demographic, no?
I guess I need to make that phone call to Charlotte and ask her to register me and my partner then...
Boy, is she going to be surprised.
rjcbear
10-01-2007, 06:23 PM
I guess I need to make that phone call to Charlotte and ask her to register me and my partner then...
Boy, is she going to be surprised.
Good luck and for now I am done.
mamboqueen
10-01-2007, 06:23 PM
It does seem kind of silly that am/am couples have to make phone calls to get entry fees....I somewhat understand (although disagree with) the rationale of not posting for pro/am...but most am couples, I assume, send in their own entries. Full and easy disclosure, imo, is the best policy. Again, if they're going to give it out over the phone or email/fax it, why not just put it out there in the first place?
Oh - I'm just one of those control freaks who likes to take care of my own stuff. I'd probably feel unlucky if I had pros who tried to take care of absolutely everything for me. Too independent for my own good sometimes!
Me TOOOOOOO;)
It does seem kind of silly that am/am couples have to make phone calls to get entry fees....I somewhat understand (although disagree with) the rationale of not posting for pro/am...but most am couples, I assume, send in their own entries. Full and easy disclosure, imo, is the best policy. Again, if they're going to give it out over the phone or email/fax it, why not just put it out there in the first place?
Million dollar question...
croaker
10-01-2007, 06:36 PM
Good luck and for now I am done.
Thanks! I just wonder if any professional would expect that an adult couple might require
that much hand-holding. Having competed and organized competitions (collegiate) before
I rather thought myself quite capable of registering myself...
syncopationator
10-01-2007, 08:58 PM
I guess I need to make that phone call to Charlotte and ask her to register me and my partner then...
Boy, is she going to be surprised.
If you are dancing in the amateur category, you can contact the organizer to find out the entry fees and send your entries yourself. You are not affected in any way.
Pro/am on the other hand requires that the pros/studios send in the entries since they usually have more than one student competing with them. This keeps things more organized and avoids possible mistakes (i.e. two students signing up for the same category - syllabus level, age, etc which would require the pro to dance the same heat with two students (i.e. impossible)).
I do agree with most posters here that comp organizers should show entry fees on the website. I usually call them anyway to get the information, but it would certainly make things a lot easier if they were just posted on the website for all to see.
fascination
10-01-2007, 08:59 PM
I fail to see the validity of this point in my case, sorry. I don't dance pro-am and any of the several teachers that my partner and I are taking lessons from would probably be rather surprised if we expected them to fill out our competition registration forms etc. It just doesn't seem like it's in their job description, and I never heard of teachers doing
it for their adult amateur students.yes...the Am. situation is different...ftr...I do fill out my own forms or copies...just to prevent mis-communication...but my understanding is that is highly irregular...largely b/c in pro/am the pro is often dancing with more than one Am. and is the best one to juggle that and it is his job...having said that, I am a big girl and I don't expect or need any of that to be done FOR me...but out of respect for how it is done, I often fill it out myself and then he will look it over and revise as neccessary...which is rare
fascination
10-01-2007, 08:59 PM
I will not be dress like a princess but I sure will be honor to have one princess in my arm as I take her to the dance floor.
I think all of us are the luckiest of them all because of our involvement with Ballroom.
huh???????
fascination
10-01-2007, 09:01 PM
Well, I guess the difference is, we're taking lessons from the independent pro's,
not from the studio. I can't imagine myself going to (just to take an example out of thin air)
Charlotte Jorgenson and asking her - "Hey, can you do my registration for the OSB competition?" :)
my pro is independent...but he isn't my coach...I wouldn't expect my coach to do it either
fascination
10-01-2007, 09:06 PM
This wouldn't/doesn't work for me at all! Quite often I arrive at the competition before my pro does. If I've paid for a package that includes a daytime ticket and a program and possibly a meal ticket, and my pro isn't scheduled to arrive until the evening, I'm sure as heck not going to just sit in the lobby because I'm supposed to "wait for my pro" to get my stuff for me. Organizers may dislike having to pick my stuff out of the studio packet, but I always thank them profusely and offer to sign a receipt, and they usually oblige and give me the items I need - I've paid for them, after all. (There was only comp organizer who refused to release my stuff until my pro arrived - and I will not be attending the competition again.)
And I fall into the camp of those who want the comp website to include all the information about the comp - including the prices. Heck, if I'm the one who is paying for the comp, I don't want to have to hunt and beg for information.
A) I agree about a comp...I appreciate being given that for which I have paid regardless of the arrival of my pro....sometimes they do sometimes they don't
B) agree that I would prefer the prices online but I can see why they aren't and no pro worth their salt should make one beg and plead...I guess that is my point...frankly, in my own situation he hands the thing to me and lets me rifle through it for as long as I like...then I decide what I am doing and figure the cost and hand him a copy which he transfers into a final draft if he agrees and off it goes
fascination
10-01-2007, 09:07 PM
I don't do pro/am. There are other kinds of competitions outside of pro/am.
Why do I get all these replies with the presupposition that there're no competitions
aside from pro/am ?
OSB is not pro/am only competition, so my whole point is, it's rather strange that an amateur doesn't have an easy access to the information required for the registration.b/c you weren't the only person to reply to, and people tend to respond from their own perspective which isn't meant as a crime or insult to you:rolleyes:
fascination
10-01-2007, 09:08 PM
Oh - I'm just one of those control freaks who likes to take care of my own stuff. I'd probably feel unlucky if I had pros who tried to take care of absolutely everything for me. Too independent for my own good sometimes!
nah...just smart...:cool:
syncopationator
10-01-2007, 09:12 PM
Fasc, that's 6 straight uninterrupted posts. Is that some sort of record???
fascination
10-01-2007, 09:14 PM
no...am sure DancePoet has done at least three times that many on some old relationship threads....look, this is what happens when I go off and have a life...too much water flows under the bridge ;)
syncopationator
10-01-2007, 09:21 PM
You're right. amazing
Fasc, that's 6 straight uninterrupted posts. Is that some sort of record???
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Does that answer your question? ;-)
Thanks! I just wonder if any professional would expect that an adult couple might require
that much hand-holding. Having competed and organized competitions (collegiate) before
I rather thought myself quite capable of registering myself...
You DO realize that probably no pro/am students have ever really organized competitions themselves right, and are therefore different from you, correct?
In pro/am, we are typically responsible for making a competition experience as worry-free and enjoyable for students as possible. Part of this is registration and the like. Students should be focused on competing and enjoying the entire experience, and not things like filling out entries. The pro is responsible for ensuring that there are no heat conflicts (two ladies the same age, cannot compete in the same level with the same pro, for example), and thus it would not really be pleasant or logical for each student to do all this themselves. Again, part of the job of a good pro is to ensure that the competition experience is a great one, and having one less thing to do lets a student enjoy it more. It's not a matter of competence or not--it's a matter of courtesy and convenience. You're capable of cooking your own dinner, but isn't it nice to go to a restaurant and be served from time to time? I have not yet had a student ask if they could fill out any paperwork. :-) I'm upfront with pricing, because it's reasonable, and it all works out.
Hope this gives you a different perspective on things croaker.
fascination
10-02-2007, 07:22 AM
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Does that answer your question? ;-):notworth:very cute
fascination
10-02-2007, 07:25 AM
You DO realize that probably no pro/am students have ever really organized competitions themselves right, and are therefore different from you, correct?
In pro/am, we are typically responsible for making a competition experience as worry-free and enjoyable for students as possible. Part of this is registration and the like. Students should be focused on competing and enjoying the entire experience, and not things like filling out entries. The pro is responsible for ensuring that there are no heat conflicts (two ladies the same age, cannot compete in the same level with the same pro, for example), and thus it would not really be pleasant or logical for each student to do all this themselves. Again, part of the job of a good pro is to ensure that the competition experience is a great one, and having one less thing to do lets a student enjoy it more. It's not a matter of competence or not--it's a matter of courtesy and convenience. You're capable of cooking your own dinner, but isn't it nice to go to a restaurant and be served from time to time? I have not yet had a student ask if they could fill out any paperwork. :-) I'm upfront with pricing, because it's reasonable, and it all works out.
Hope this gives you a different perspective on things croaker.well...exactly...and only speaking for myself, since I actually have done my own entries on several occassions and since I dance many styles and levels, it is a huge time committment to do it without goofing it up or causing a conflict with whomever else is dancing...which often doesn't get worked out in a prompt fashion...
croaker
10-02-2007, 08:21 AM
You DO realize that probably no pro/am students have ever really organized competitions themselves right, and are therefore different from you, correct?
In pro/am, we are typically responsible for making a competition experience as worry-free and enjoyable for students as possible. Part of this is registration and the like. Students should be focused on competing and enjoying the entire experience, and not things like filling out entries. The pro is responsible for ensuring that there are no heat conflicts (two ladies the same age, cannot compete in the same level with the same pro, for example), and thus it would not really be pleasant or logical for each student to do all this themselves. Again, part of the job of a good pro is to ensure that the competition experience is a great one, and having one less thing to do lets a student enjoy it more. It's not a matter of competence or not--it's a matter of courtesy and convenience. You're capable of cooking your own dinner, but isn't it nice to go to a restaurant and be served from time to time? I have not yet had a student ask if they could fill out any paperwork. :-) I'm upfront with pricing, because it's reasonable, and it all works out.
Hope this gives you a different perspective on things croaker.
This is all great. However you might not have noticed a difference between
having a choice of cooking your own dinner or going to a restaurant, and being basically
FORCED to find someone who will do for you what you're quite capable of doing yourself. As you might know there're often multiple partners/partner changes in a collegiate competition as well - a good computerized registration system resolves such conflicts
automatically and transparently. I find it a bit bizzare that the largest competition in the USA is still using paper-only registration system, but that's another story. The discussion was not about forcing pro/am students register themselves, the discussion was about expecting adult amateur couples to find a professional to do it for them,
you see the difference?
I'm sure you will get a chorus of "good point Josh" but as for me I don't see how posting the price list online would force
pro/am students to register themselves instead of leaving it to their pro, if they so desire.
In pro/am, we are typically responsible for making a competition experience as worry-free and enjoyable for students as possible. Part of this is registration and the like. Students should be focused on competing and enjoying the entire experience, and not things like filling out entries. The pro is responsible for ensuring that there are no heat conflicts (two ladies the same age, cannot compete in the same level with the same pro, for example), and thus it would not really be pleasant or logical for each student to do all this themselves. Again, part of the job of a good pro is to ensure that the competition experience is a great one, and having one less thing to do lets a student enjoy it more. It's not a matter of competence or not--it's a matter of courtesy and convenience. You're capable of cooking your own dinner, but isn't it nice to go to a restaurant and be served from time to time? I have not yet had a student ask if they could fill out any paperwork. :-) I'm upfront with pricing, because it's reasonable, and it all works out.
On the whole, I'm like Fascination - I want the information up-front and I fill out my own forms (my "wish list") and turn them over to Pro does the final review for conflicts. But once I get to the comp, I like to be able to get my own stuff if my Pro isn't there yet.
And not all Pros are as responsible as you are. I once had a pro who got injured just before a comp and had to scratch. I still wanted to compete, and that pro left me totally to my own devices to find a different pro to compete with me and left me totally to my own devices to contact the organizers about changing entries and fees, etc.
So, it's great if a Pro does all those things that you list for his/her students - but if something goes wrong, I want to know that I can handle my own back-up plan.
gingerbread
10-02-2007, 09:45 AM
This wouldn't/doesn't work for me at all! Quite often I arrive at the competition before my pro does. If I've paid for a package that includes a daytime ticket and a program and possibly a meal ticket, and my pro isn't scheduled to arrive until the evening, I'm sure as heck not going to just sit in the lobby because I'm supposed to "wait for my pro" to get my stuff for me. Organizers may dislike having to pick my stuff out of the studio packet, but I always thank them profusely and offer to sign a receipt, and they usually oblige and give me the items I need - I've paid for them, after all. (There was only comp organizer who refused to release my stuff until my pro arrived - and I will not be attending the competition again.)
And I fall into the camp of those who want the comp website to include all the information about the comp - including the prices. Heck, if I'm the one who is paying for the comp, I don't want to have to hunt and beg for information.
I actually fill out and send in my own entries. I like it better that way. Then I know it's taken care of in time. It just feels more comfortable to me. We do talk over what dances I should do, what category, how many dances, etc. but I'm an adult, I run a household, I have raised a family, I have a career, I guess I am used to taking care of myself. Except when it comes to the dancing. Then I put myself completely in my pro's hands... whatever he wants to work on, whatever he suggests, it's all up to him.
LucyDiamond
10-02-2007, 09:49 AM
For the 2 competitions I participated in, my pro and I filled it out together. For the first one, he then mailed the paper form in with the money. I then reimbursed my pro. The second competition (Colorado Star Ball) has online registration. We sat at the computer and filled it out together. I then mailed a check directly to the organizers. My pro is great in that respect. I like being in on the paper work. I think it's my liking to have some control and also making sure it's filled out for the heats we agreed upon. In both comps, the prices were available on the websites. I can't imagine why an organizer wouldn't have price on the website and I would find it irritating not to have that information readily available.
SDsalsaguy
10-02-2007, 11:39 AM
The discussion was not about forcing pro/am students register themselves, the discussion was about expecting adult amateur couples to find a professional to do it for them
This is an utterly spurious argument croaker since, as has been well documented in this thread, any adult couple can contact the organizer and receive the information.
(Note: I can certainly understand what your objecting to, but exaggerating the case does not strengthen your argument.)
croaker
10-02-2007, 12:12 PM
This is an utterly spurious argument croaker since, as has been well documented in this thread, any adult couple can contact the organizer and receive the information.
(Note: I can certainly understand what your objecting to, but exaggerating the case does not strengthen your argument.)
Well then, how Josh' argument was not spurious when he claimed that pro/am couples should be given a choice of having the pro to do the registration for them - as if I was ever arguing against that? Or rather I would say his was a straw-man argument.
And while there has been great advice given in the thread and in the PM about ways to contact the organizers there certainly has been equally often an advice amounting to "your pro should do it for you" which I find utterly inapplicable in a general situation.
So as I was replying to this suggestion I don't think my objection was spurious.
In any case as you said Pro/am rules the dancing in the US, so us, amateur "peasants" should bite the bullet and be happy with what opportunities we get.
SDsalsaguy
10-02-2007, 12:17 PM
In any case as you said Pro/am rules the dancing in the US, so us, amateur "peasants" should bite the bullet and be happy with what opportunities we get.
No, what I had said was that since pro-am rules it makes sense why that is the default model appealed to by the largest pro-am competition in the US. Are there legitimate issues with this model, both for non-pro-ams and pro-ams who dislike this model? Absolutely.
star_gazer
10-02-2007, 12:20 PM
amateur "peasants" should bite the bullet and be happy with what opportunities we get.peasants...pretty funny
croaker
10-02-2007, 12:23 PM
peasants...pretty funny
It's from another thread about the costs of admission to the ballroom.
mamboqueen
10-02-2007, 12:42 PM
peasants...pretty funny
geez, if ams are peasants, I'm wondering what that makes pro/ammers (this is rhetorical; no need to reply). :eek:
croaker
10-02-2007, 12:45 PM
geez, if ams are peasants, I'm wondering what that makes pro/ammers (this is rhetorical; no need to reply). :eek:
Errr...Queens...and Kings ? :) :p
mamboqueen
10-02-2007, 12:48 PM
well if it is decided on who spends the most money to compete, then you're right ;), and would personally enjoy being treated as such!
fascination
10-02-2007, 02:03 PM
This is an utterly spurious argument croaker since, as has been well documented in this thread, any adult couple can contact the organizer and receive the information.
(Note: I can certainly understand what your objecting to, but exaggerating the case does not strengthen your argument.)not to mention that NO ONE is arguing that posting the prices would in fact force the am half of pro/am to do it themselves, only saying that there are nuances particularly if a pro has multiple students that make is more sensible for the pro to mange it at times...personally, I too sleep better at night taking responsibility for myself...so I do
One really good thing about Dance Forums is that we have Amateur, Pro/Am, Pro, etc., all on one forum. This is hugely good because otherwise there would be less cross-pollination, understanding, and appreciation of the dance world.
Please try to seek understanding - even where differences exist (not bad, just differences), the other's frame of reference, the moccasins the other is walking in . . .
Additionally, we have international communities, collegiate, adult, youth, organizers, scrutineers, DJs, passers-by, etc. Not everyone shares the same experiences - but can benefit by thoughtful and caring discussion - and it helps to state your frame of reference and/or quote specifically.
Of course, it not as much fun that way . . .
fascination
10-02-2007, 02:08 PM
Well then, how Josh' argument was not spurious when he claimed that pro/am couples should be given a choice of having the pro to do the registration for them - as if I was ever arguing against that? Or rather I would say his was a straw-man argument.
And while there has been great advice given in the thread and in the PM about ways to contact the organizers there certainly has been equally often an advice amounting to "your pro should do it for you" which I find utterly inapplicable in a general situation.
So as I was replying to this suggestion I don't think my objection was spurious.
In any case as you said Pro/am rules the dancing in the US, so us, amateur "peasants" should bite the bullet and be happy with what opportunities we get.I find your hostility and adversarial nature downright puzzling...no one here is saying "to hell with amateur dancing"...what folks have attempted to say is that it is not "hand holding" for a pro/am student to be accustomed to their pro handling their entries...it is par for the course...and any am half of pro am or am/am is capable of having a pkg sent to them or of insisting on seeing the one at their studio...no one is inferring that anyone is any less important than anyone else...everyone deserves upfront info...and everyone is equally up a tree if they put off looking into it until the last minute...and SD is also merely noting that the comp has a huge pro/am contingent as a response to you, not as some inference that am/am is irrelevant...he has afterall, danced it...lastly...I have recently been to a highly automated comp...and uh...it had it's glitches
fascination
10-02-2007, 02:14 PM
It's from another thread about the costs of admission to the ballroom.
yea...but it wasn't a comment made by a pro/am dancer or pro...IIRC...it was about audience and behavior
fascination
10-02-2007, 02:15 PM
Errr...Queens...and Kings ? :) :pgiven that the group is disparaged and over-generalized about beyond belief, I rather doubt it
In my experience with organizers, those who don't regularly publish a price list are accommodating the requestsof certain studio owners. Many franchises and studios run along franchise models consider the price list for a comp to be the wholesale prices; they apply a markup when presenting retail prices to their studio participants.
Do I think this is right? Well, I'm not covering the cost of having the majority of my staff at an event, paying them for their time, paying for their airfares and packages or hotel rooms, and feeding them in addition to losing the income they would have generated by staying in town and teaching over a three day weekend. So I don't have grounds to comment on whether this is right or wrong. If more students from these studios voted with their feet (found other teachers with different methodologies), then perhaps these practices would change.
As an independent, I would always have my students pay the organizer directly and only those fees which they owed to the organizer. My fees were a separate issue negotiated directly between me and my students.
My amateur spouse often receives comp packages with only the amateur entry forms and fees included. This was a relatively easy thing to do when everyone mailed packages out; on the internet the only way to restrict access to confidential information is to make it available by request only. Is it really so hard to drop an email back to an organizer?
mamboqueen
10-02-2007, 02:53 PM
Can't speak for everyone else, but I know that I'm paying more than just what the entry fees are -- for the reasons/expenses you list above, which is fine - don't expect anyone to work for free. It's really not a matter of it being difficult to email an organizer...it's just that there is inconsistency between different comp organizers. Look at the website for the Holiday Dance Classic - they list every price imagineable. Makes it really easy for one to ballpark what the comp is going to cost (and for students who go to studios who charge either a flat fee or a cost per dance, you can pretty much figure out what you're looking at). Yes, it is easy for me (and 300 others like me) to email an organizer -- but if I was an organizer, it would save quite a bit of time having to deal with these emails/phone calls by simply posting the numbers.
NURDRMS
10-02-2007, 03:39 PM
The only time I requested a comp info package from an organizer I was told that info was reserved for the pros and I should contact mine if I had any questions.
Many franchises and studios run along franchise models consider the price list for a comp to be the wholesale prices; they apply a markup when presenting retail prices to their studio participants.
Do I think this is right? Well, I'm not covering the cost of having the majority of my staff at an event, paying them for their time, paying for their airfares and packages or hotel rooms, and feeding them in addition to losing the income they would have generated by staying in town and teaching over a three day weekend.
Good points avab. Unfortunately, sometimes folks on the pleasure-only side of dancing (i.e., competing students with Pro/Am, or competing amateur couples) versus the "pleasure and business side of it" (pros) do not understand that the dance industry is a *business*. That seems to make some people sad, as perhaps they feel it removes some of the "purity" of dance. But the fact that it is run as a business shouldn't take away from the pleasure of it any more than the fact that entertainment anywhere costs money--does one lament paying money to go to an entertainment park, or the movies, or theater? If one does, then one shouldn't be paying it to begin with, and one has a distorted view (IMO) of the relative value of entertainment.
Why is it viewed as a bad thing that studios must mark up prices to send people to a comp? Hello...? It's a business...? What are they going to pay rent with, goodwill and love? Having worked for a studio in the past, and having to sell prices based on markups, I appreciate now (as do my students) being able to charge less for basically the same thing. But I do not have the same overhead that a business has, and remember that in the end the student pays the money, so if it seems too expensive to someone, then they must realize that ultimately the MARKET, in the case the students, determine the price. If the price seems too high, then blame the ones who are willing to pay it, not the astute businessperson who understands how to make money.
Along the same lines, I get a little confused when students talk about markups for comps like they're some sort of extraneous, spurrious cost that a pro decided to just throw in. When I chare fees for my students, what they are paying for is a complete comp experience, someone to work with them on their dancing, and also someone to dance with. Would anyone with a day job go into the office one day and expect to not be paid for working? Sure, dancing is fun, but it's my only job, and for me personally, it pays me every dollar I make. So working for free is not an option. I give my students discounts, however, as is the case in any good business arrangement. But just because it's dancing and fun doesn't mean that pros can just dance for free :-)
Hope that doesn't sound like a rant, just some things I had going on in my head.
fascination
10-02-2007, 03:43 PM
that has happened to me as well...thus my point..if the problem is btwn student/pro or studio and student, then it needs to be settled there...and the degree to which there is or isn't transparency should be noted...if I can't see the price list from the pkg..I am outta there...
NURDRMS
10-02-2007, 03:47 PM
that has happened to me as well...thus my point..if the problem is btwn student/pro or studio and student, then it needs to be settled there...and the degree to which there is or isn't transparency should be noted...if I can't see the price list from the pkg..I am outta there...
Oh, don't get me wrong...no problem btwn my pro and me...I was just trying to gather some basic info on a comp before I discussed possible participation with my pro. Was disappointed I had to go through someone else to gather my own information to make the go / no-go decision.
fascination
10-02-2007, 03:49 PM
gotta say josh...here is where we depart for 2 reasons...1) it isn't a pleasure end of dance if I am getting gouged (aside from the fact that I don't view the pleasure aspect as primary, at least not in the short run, only indirectly via very hard work), and 2) I am totally onboard with paying all of my pro's expenses and then some ..i.e contributing to his nestegg, to which I strive mightily to be generous ...he deserves it....but I want to know which part of it is the comp cost and which part of it is his mark up...incidentally, I happily have no studio mark-up which I would resent far more than pro's mark-up...as they used to get plenty off of my pkg....
fascination
10-02-2007, 03:53 PM
Oh, don't get me wrong...no problem btwn my pro and me...I was just trying to gather some basic info on a comp before I discussed possible participation with my pro. Was disappointed I had to go through someone else to gather my own information to make the go / no-go decision.I didn't misunderstand you...only making the larger point that b/c that is likely to happen it is even more essential that one has the proper understanding with pro...and if neccessary, studio...like you, I am happily able to operate on my own without anyone resenting it...and given the enormous investment I would take serious issue with someone who had a problem with it...and let me again reiterate that for a comp that large I have always found ohio to be very responsive to whatever issues I have had
...and let me again reiterate that for a comp that large I have always found ohio to be very responsive to whatever issues I have had
OSB and organizer have demonstrated to me that they bend over backwards for participants in ways that make them stand out head and shoulders above other comps.
:notworth:
This thread highlighting one sticky point which is bothersome to Amateur competitors . . .
I was just trying to gather some basic info on a comp before I discussed possible participation with my pro. Was disappointed I had to go through someone else to gather my own information to make the go / no-go decision.
That happened to me once. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. I phoned the organizer a day later and didn't ask any questions at all, but in a very business-like voice directed them to send a registration packet to "'Name of Home Street' Studio" c/o Cal, at my address. I got the packet.
In fact, I got my packet before Pro got his.
fascination
10-02-2007, 06:26 PM
I didn't misunderstand you...only making the larger point that b/c that is likely to happen it is even more essential that one has the proper understanding with pro...and if neccessary, studio...like you, I am happily able to operate on my own without anyone resenting it...and given the enormous investment I would take serious issue with someone who had a problem with it...and let me again reiterate that for a comp that large I have always found ohio to be very responsive to whatever issues I have had
let me also add that I could live with studio markups as well as long as I was told" we added "X"% as our mark up...no prob...I won't love it but I can live with it
fascination
10-02-2007, 06:27 PM
That happened to me once. But there's more than one way to skin a cat. I phoned the organizer a day later and didn't ask any questions at all, but in a very business-like voice directed them to send a registration packet to "'Name of Home Street' Studio" c/o Cal, at my address. I got the packet.
In fact, I got my packet before Pro got his.lol...shhhh...not sposed to tell those secrets in public;)...they'll think up some secret handshake or something
I have really enjoyed reading everyones points of view... I decided to jump out of the debate abit ago.. Just wanted to add that I am always willing to pay any fair amount. this is the pros job and I think us ams should always remember that. When it starts feeling more like a friendship and things seem to casual people can lose site of things and take it personal. My point has always been that everyone should have a chance to see the prices and make their own informed decisions.
croaker
10-02-2007, 09:20 PM
I find your hostility and adversarial nature downright puzzling...no one here is saying "to hell with amateur dancing"...what folks have attempted to say is that it is not "hand holding" for a pro/am student to be accustomed to their pro handling their entries...it is par for the course...and any am half of pro am or am/am is capable of having a pkg sent to them or of insisting on seeing the one at their studio...no one is inferring that anyone is any less important than anyone else...everyone deserves upfront info...and everyone is equally up a tree if they put off looking into it until the last minute...and SD is also merely noting that the comp has a huge pro/am contingent as a response to you, not as some inference that am/am is irrelevant...he has afterall, danced it...lastly...I have recently been to a highly automated comp...and uh...it had it's glitches
No hostility. Just a bit tired of seeing "Good point ..." when I see no point at all.
croaker
10-02-2007, 09:22 PM
Good points avab. Unfortunately, sometimes folks on the pleasure-only side of dancing (i.e., competing students with Pro/Am, or competing amateur couples) versus the "pleasure and business side of it" (pros) do not understand that the dance industry is a *business*. That seems to make some people sad, as perhaps they feel it removes some of the "purity" of dance. But the fact that it is run as a business shouldn't take away from the pleasure of it any more than the fact that entertainment anywhere costs money--does one lament paying money to go to an entertainment park, or the movies, or theater? If one does, then one shouldn't be paying it to begin with, and one has a distorted view (IMO) of the relative value of entertainment.
Why is it viewed as a bad thing that studios must mark up prices to send people to a comp? Hello...? It's a business...? What are they going to pay rent with, goodwill and love? Having worked for a studio in the past, and having to sell prices based on markups, I appreciate now (as do my students) being able to charge less for basically the same thing. But I do not have the same overhead that a business has, and remember that in the end the student pays the money, so if it seems too expensive to someone, then they must realize that ultimately the MARKET, in the case the students, determine the price. If the price seems too high, then blame the ones who are willing to pay it, not the astute businessperson who understands how to make money.
Along the same lines, I get a little confused when students talk about markups for comps like they're some sort of extraneous, spurrious cost that a pro decided to just throw in. When I chare fees for my students, what they are paying for is a complete comp experience, someone to work with them on their dancing, and also someone to dance with. Would anyone with a day job go into the office one day and expect to not be paid for working? Sure, dancing is fun, but it's my only job, and for me personally, it pays me every dollar I make. So working for free is not an option. I give my students discounts, however, as is the case in any good business arrangement. But just because it's dancing and fun doesn't mean that pros can just dance for free :-)
Hope that doesn't sound like a rant, just some things I had going on in my head.
Yes it might make a perfect business sense of charging for things that I wouldn't have expected to be charged for - naively I thought dance teachers and dance studios are in the business of providing dance instruction (and getting paid for that), not resale of competition registration information.
danceronice
10-02-2007, 09:40 PM
I have no idea what the difference between what I pay per dance to my pros and what the registration fees are (as the cost is always the same at every competition, except one small local one where the entry fees are lower) and honestly, I don't particularly worry about it. That's all I pay for the competition where they're concerned, that per-dance fee. I realize that out of it they are covering my entry fees, plus their time. Given the choice between that and paying the entry fees, plus room and board for them plus a fee, or worse, following the skating model where I would cover entry fees and my coach's lost wages (ie what he'd be making teaching at home the days he was at a comp with me), I'll take their flat-fee system and not worry overmuch about how much is the competitions' fees and how much is their fee.
waltzgirl
10-02-2007, 09:44 PM
I have no idea what the difference between what I pay per dance to my pros and what the registration fees are (as the cost is always the same at every competition, except one small local one where the entry fees are lower) and honestly, I don't particularly worry about it. That's all I pay for the competition where they're concerned, that per-dance fee. I realize that out of it they are covering my entry fees, plus their time. Given the choice between that and paying the entry fees, plus room and board for them plus a fee, or worse, following the skating model where I would cover entry fees and my coach's lost wages (ie what he'd be making teaching at home the days he was at a comp with me), I'll take their flat-fee system and not worry overmuch about how much is the competitions' fees and how much is their fee.
You probably are paying for the same things as you did with skating--at least, it is common for pros/studios to calculate all those things in the cost of comps. It's a matter of taste whether one prefers to have everything itemized or just worry about the bottom line.
danceronice
10-02-2007, 09:49 PM
For a skating coach, I (or a group of students) would be paying the literal costs--as in, if he normally would have ten students a day at $109/hour, that's what I'd cover--hopefully split among me and a couple other students, but still a lot of money, and of course most coaches are only going to have three or so except at Regionals. Looking at what I pay per dance, there's a percentage of lost wages, but they have to be making it up by volume of students going. I know what lessons are per hour and my fee alone isn't making up for what they could be making.
Croaker, you're not being 'resold' competition registration information. Did anyone ask you to pay to obtain the price list?
As I stated before, the Ohio Star Ball doesn't publish the price list online because some studio owners and managers, who bring huge numbers of entries worth tens of thousands of dollars to the competition, have asked that it remain confidential. I know that this is the reason because I asked Sam about it a few years ago.
Obviously, the information you want is available; it's just not in the form in which you would prefer. Making multiple sarcastic posts insulting people who are trying to explain to you why, whether you agree with it or not, the list will not be published on the internet won't change anything. Not only will the organizer provide entry price information if you simply ask for it, any professional who coaches you would also gladly let you know. You could probably even be gifted with a summary sheet of your very own.
Thanks Ava!
A little thought before we proceed . . .
Please read posts carefully
Do not assume bad motives (we're all dancers here)
croaker
10-02-2007, 10:15 PM
Croaker, you're not being 'resold' competition registration information. Did anyone ask you to pay to obtain the price list?
As I stated before, the Ohio Star Ball doesn't publish the price list online because some studio owners and managers, who bring huge numbers of entries worth tens of thousands of dollars to the competition, have asked that it remain confidential. I know that this is the reason because I asked Sam about it a few years ago.
Obviously, the information you want is available; it's just not in the form in which you would prefer. Making multiple sarcastic posts insulting people who are trying to explain to you why, whether you agree with it or not, the list will not be published on the internet won't change anything. Not only will the organizer provide entry price information if you simply ask for it, any professional who coaches you would also gladly let you know. You could probably even be gifted with a summary sheet of your very own.
I'm sorry but does this make sense to you? Because it really doesn't to me.
What kind of confidentiality is that if, as you yourself said, the information is readily available?
And the reason some of my comments might be seen as somewhat sarcastic is exactly because it_doesn't_make_any_sense.
It's not a confidentiality, it's an inconvinience designed to murky the waters so to speak.
waltzgirl
10-02-2007, 10:37 PM
It makes perfect sense to the studios that prefer to sell their students comprehensive comp packages without calling attention to how much goes to the comp and how much to the studio--and as this thread shows, some students also prefer this. It also makes perfect sense to the competition organizers to accommodate these studios since they are among the comp's biggest customers.
I have found that, in life, sometimes things make sense to other people--while still being inconvenient to me. Amazing but true! :D
croaker
10-02-2007, 10:52 PM
It makes perfect sense to the studios that prefer to sell their students comprehensive comp packages without calling attention to how much goes to the comp and how much to the studio--and as this thread shows, some students also prefer this. It also makes perfect sense to the competition organizers to accommodate these studios since they are among the comp's biggest customers.
I have found that, in life, sometimes things make sense to other people--while still being inconvenient to me. Amazing but true! :D
Very well, so the studio is capitalizing on the information that is somewhat obfuscated to the students. While you might not call it an outright "resale" the end result is the same, no? The studio has made money because it has ready access to the complete
registration information.:twisted:
I hope you won't take my arguing as a sign of "hostility" :peace:
Larinda McRaven
10-02-2007, 11:29 PM
You can easily call the organizers phone number, listed in plain sight on the web, and get Brenda to go over the prices for you. You can also request a package be sent to you. That is how I get the prices... it is no more hidden to you than it is to me.
croaker
10-02-2007, 11:35 PM
You can easily call the organizers phone number, listed in plain sight on the web, and get Brenda to go over the prices for you. You can also request a package be sent to you. That is how I get the prices... it is no more hidden to you than it is to me.
Done that, thanks.
It's more of a philosophical discussion at this point as far as I can judge.
fascination
10-03-2007, 06:07 AM
let me also add that I am certainly not arguing that there aren't studios that abuse the daylights out of the difficulty students sometimes have in directly obtaining a package on their own...and while I have no objection to studios having a mark-up and making a profit, I want to see that itemization on my cost list....but I am well aware of studios wherein the student is being unfathomably yanked and doesn't have enough experience to know it...so there are degrees to anything, which is why I think the burden belongs on the studio/pro regarding the degree of transparency or lack thereof...I know of one relatively new student who is going to osb who (at best) is dancing half the heats that I am doing (and I am on the large package) and she is paying over 2k more than I am (and she is not dancing with some world class pro)...I would be looking for some breakdown of costs there...and MAYBE she was given them and found it acceptable...dunno...but it certainly doesn't mean that every studio operates that way ....still I find that beyond making a profit ...that is making a killing
meh, strikes me there is a learning curve that we all go through...then we all get smart and do as Cal does...."hi, my name is ...said pro didn't get a pkg...please mail it to..."
fascination
10-03-2007, 06:10 AM
and of course, if anyone is unaware, deadline for entries is the 7th
Larinda McRaven
10-03-2007, 09:17 AM
It's more of a philosophical discussion at this point as far as I can judge.
My answer was philosophical also. The prices are no secret. We all have access to them the same. The phone numbers on the websites are clearly listed. No obfuscation.
Ithink
10-03-2007, 11:01 AM
I just wonder why the prices for amateurs cannot be listed as part of the amateur entry form? I understand the whole pro/am thing and I don't care but amateurs do their own registering - why can't things be made more transparent?
Laura
10-03-2007, 12:07 PM
You DO realize that probably no pro/am students have ever really organized competitions themselves right, and are therefore different from you, correct?
Okay, I haven't organized a Pro/Am comp from scratch, but I have done a lot of work behind the scenes and in up-front customer service at a few good-sized Pro/Am comps. I also have organized a *lot* of Amateur-only comps, including being one of the main instigators of the 2006 USA Dance Nationals. So it's not entirely true that no Pro/Am students have ever organized competitions :)
I have not yet had a student ask if they could fill out any paperwork. :-)
For my current and previous teachers, I did the paperwork and paid the fees myself out of my own checking account. I did this to make sure the entries were accurate and -- more importantly -- submitted and paid on time. Some teachers are not so organized as you, Josh :)
As far as not putting Amateur event fees on the web site, I agree that it is a pain in the butt to have to call in to get a price sheet, but OSB has its reasons for doing things the way they do and it's not like they are going to tell you "no" if you call in and ask for the info. If you don't want to make the phone call, if you know any Pros who do Pro/Am in your area at all, you can try asking them for the pricing sheet. I can't think of anyone who would say "no." Also, you could ask the other high-level Amateurs in your area if they have the price sheet. Heck, the studio where I take lessons keeps the pricing sheets they receive from various comps on file, and I can ask to see them so I can look up fees. Yes, it's not convenient, but it's not a big disaster either. I just chalk it up to a quirk of the ballroom competition system....
Laura
10-03-2007, 12:10 PM
I find it a bit bizzare that the largest competition in the USA is still using paper-only registration system, but that's another story.
And a story I can speak to (not in terms of OSB, but in terms of converting a comp from paper to online, the current state of online registration systems, and so) if you care to open up another thread on the topic.
Laura
10-03-2007, 12:17 PM
The only time I requested a comp info package from an organizer I was told that info was reserved for the pros and I should contact mine if I had any questions.
There are some very what I call "old school" organizers who are still like that. I had an 'experience' with one last year. Fortunately this is changing, but the old guard dies hard.
Laura
10-03-2007, 12:24 PM
naively I thought dance teachers and dance studios are in the business of providing dance instruction (and getting paid for that), not resale of competition registration information.
Yes, that is a naive assumption. There are whole competition circuits that are based on resale. The comps are marketed as travel/vacation destinations with some dancing thrown in. It is impossible to get information on the comp except through a studio that has arranged to be a reseller of the services.
But not all comps are that way.
And not all Studios are that way.
I prefer Independent teachers and studios because they focus on the dance instruction and not the resale of competition experiences.
Laura
10-03-2007, 12:31 PM
I just wonder why the prices for amateurs cannot be listed as part of the amateur entry form? I understand the whole pro/am thing and I don't care but amateurs do their own registering - why can't things be made more transparent?
From my point of view, I agree -- what would the damage be if *just* the Amateur-only event fees were listed?
Regardless, OSB does what they do, and we all have a choice: call someone and ask, or not go to the comp. It's not like this is some "required" qualifying comp that people have to get to for something. It's elective, and the price list thing is a somewhat silly (in my opinion) bump in the road that just has to be dealt with. I put it in the same sort of category as the inconvenience of having to send in an "application" form for Blackpool tickets 10 months in advance of the event. Not optimal, no guarantee of even getting tickets, but that's the way it goes. But I digress.
From my point of view, I agree -- what would the damage be if *just* the Amateur-only event fees were listed?
A simple solution that would go a long way to satisfying the questions of us Amateurs - just adding to the Amateur entry form without a rework to the system.
Reminder: Deadline is October 7th!
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