Group class petty behavior?

[Roxyg4321]

Here's my dilemma. I am taking an advanced technique class for latin. There is one particular gentleman - mid 40s in my class who is an okay dancer. He has a large repetoire of moves, but not a lot of style and finesse. As it is a group class, we rotate partners every few minutes. The crux of the problem is that this gentleman likes to 1) stay with the partner he is currently dancing with, especially if she is young, thin and cute or 2) totally skip over you if there is a young/thin/cute lady behind you. Of course, as there are more followers than leaders, we are often "waiting" every second rotation - thereby increasing my frustration in "waiting" to dance with him as he is next in line, only to be ignored or passed over!

Now, I am not "old" or "ugly", but I am honest enough to say I am not "skinny". However, I am confident in my skills as a dancer, and would not say I am difficult to lead, nor is dancing with me a chore.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how to address this situation? I have seen him totally disregard some of the older ladies in our class, and I find this behavior very rude in a group class situation. It is so obvious what is happening to all of us that he chooses to conveniently ignore in class. Last night it was so obvious that as I rotated to dance with him (after waiting two rotations to allow a latecomer to go ahead of me), as I was standing in front of him waiting to begin dancing, he started to walk away to the - you guessed it - the young, thin, cute thing behind me (who I might mention is in a class that is way above her head!) - can you tell I am frustrated.

This is a long session of classes, so I will be dealing with this until just before Christmas! I am at a loss as to how to deal with this guy. I also see him at many social dances, and of course he only dances with a certain type of partner, even though they usually cannot keep up with his repetoire of moves!

[Roxyg4321]

Oops - newbie to this forum - posted twice accidentally!

[jennyisdancing]

Hi Roxie,

I empathize - that guy sounds like a real pain.

But why is the teacher allowing this fellow to ignore the rotation? It seems to me that if the guy is not following the proper rotation of partners, the instructor should be correcting him. If, because of this jerk, you are having to wait out more dances, and not getting sufficient learning experience, then you have a legitimate gripe to discuss with the teacher.

In all of my group dance classes (with various teachers), they always have the women do the rotating, not the guy. Perhaps you could suggest this to your teacher. It would be a graceful way of correcting the problem, rather than having to single out the guy and confront him.

[cornutt]

I agree, that's very rude. Look at it this way, though: If he treats his partners like he treats his non-partners, maybe you're better off not dancing with him.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

There is one particular gentleman...
:eyebrow:

[Roxyg4321]

Thanks for the empathy jennyisdancing and cornutt. Maybe this makes it even worse, but in our class, the women are the ones rotating, which makes the snub even more obvious.

I have thought of wearing one of those obnoxious "bikini tees" (you know the joke ones with the cartoon bikini body screened onto the t-shirt) with a paper bag and a picture of Angelina Jolie on it - but this might be a tad too obvious! (and perhaps even Angie is getting a little long in the tooth for this gent!)

[SDsalsaguy]

Yeah, doesn't sound like a gentleman at all... and I agree with jenny: why is the teacher allowing this to happen???

[jennyisdancing]

Thanks for the empathy jennyisdancing and cornutt. Maybe this makes it even worse, but in our class, the women are the ones rotating, which makes the snub even more obvious.

I have thought of wearing one of those obnoxious "bikini tees" (you know the joke ones with the cartoon bikini body screened onto the t-shirt) with a paper bag and a picture of Angelina Jolie on it - but this might be a tad too obvious! (and perhaps even Angie is getting a little long in the tooth for this gent!)

I'm confused, Roxy, how could this guy ignore the rotation order if all the gentlemen are supposed to stay put while the women move? If it's that egregious, now I really don't understand how the teacher is allowing it to happen. Again I suggest talking to the teacher.

Another suggestion: When you walk up to this guy for your turn to dance with him, and he starts walking away, perhaps you could smile, and say "um...(his name here)...I believe just the women are rotating." In other words pretend he's merely confused about the rotation process rather than acknowledging his jerkiness.

The guy doesn't deserve all this courtesy from you, but I am suggesting this simply for the sake of preserving a civil and pleasant atmosphere for the whole class. Don't know if it will work; you know this man and I don't, but maybe worth trying.

[Roxyg4321]

To be honest - I am not sure the instructors are even aware it's happening!

[FatBaldGuy60]

You need to get the instructor in on this. I know some people don't like rotating at all, which is one thing, but just rotating to specific people is out of line.

I know someone said you might be better off not dancing with him, but as you noted, that means less practice for you.

Since it is a class, and not a social event, he has that responsibility, and the instructor has the responsibility to enforce the rotation so that people get the practice they are paying for. I am going to presume there are other women in the class who feel the same way, and as a guy I would notice it as well, so I can't see how the instructor should be worried about upsetting that one person since most of the rest of the class are probably not happy with the one guy anyway.

FBG

[Indiana_Jay]

To be honest - I am not sure the instructors are even aware it's happening!

It's time to speak with the instructors privately and make them aware.

[SDsalsaguy]

It's time to speak with the instructors privately and make them aware.
Absolutely!

(In truth they should be paying attention, but if somehow this has escaped their notice, its their responsibility to deal with it, not yours!)

[Roxyg4321]

This is all great advice. I have honestly never experienced a situation like this before. I really appreciate your advice jennyisdancing - and just making it seem like perhaps he has misunderstood the directions to rotate. As I come up to him in the rotation, I always feel myself tense up - wondering what shenanigans he will pull this time!

[meow]

It's time to speak with the instructors privately and make them aware.

Totally agree. This is a class so this mans behaviour is way out of order. For the teachers to be unaware makes me wonder what they are doing as they should be aware, especially as you say it has been happening for a long time and to more than one person. Perhaps one or two of the other ladies that he does this to should also speak to the teachers, either with you or on their own. That way, it is obvious to the teachers what this man is doing and that it isn't just a personal thing with one person.

[danceronice]

That would last all of ten seconds at our group classes. The pro teaching them may make a joke out of our occasional inability to rotate in the correct order (we're rotationally dyslexic, darn it), but EVERYBODY rotates and no one gets to skip anyone else. As he's watching all the time, unless he's making a quick run up to change the music, and then we're not rotating, he couldn't miss it if someone pulled that stunt. And if someone DID, they wouldn't get away with it. At pre-party classes whoever's teaching may be a touch lenient if there's, say, a married couple who don't really want to rotate, but at a regular class? No way. Talk to your instructors, because that's just not right.

[Larinda McRaven]

I think most teachers see it but don't really address it for a few reasons.

I have a big group class at the college where I teach. I let them do it a few times, then yell rotate. I think people should be reasonable enough to move on to someone they have not danced with. I can't watch and count every single person. And sometimes I notice a general tendancy for some people to end up together. How do I know they aren't just liking to dance with each other, or maybe she is monopolizing him.

There are always tend to be a few women that seem slower to move in for a guy, and often stand on the perimiter. (or in my case extra men standing around) How do I know if they are just shy and need me to get them a partner, or if they honestly don't mind letting the other women try it as they feel okay enough with the material to not need a partner at that moment.

Honestly I can't force a guy to dance with someone. If the group is small enough I can control it and say "Ladies move one to the right to find your next partner" But in a larger setting that is just sometimes unreasonable when lines are not straight, and the distance from one end to the next is a long hike. You just have to let them mix and hope for the best. DOI your teacher is a bit intense don't cha think... and controling his group class is not that hard with the number of people that attend, the fact that it is latin/rhythm so couples are stationary and stay in a fixed spot therefore the line stays absolutely straight. It also is conducted in a smallish space so the spread of the group is not an issue.

What does everyone think as a teacher we are going to say to this guy? "Hey buddy, sometimes I notice you avoid certain people. Can you be more obliging to try to dance with all of the ladies?" And how will this change his behavior? Because I bet if he is as blatant as you say... then he is so socially inept that trying to shame him into submission simply won't work? So then what is left...asking him not to come to class? Why... because he doesn't rotate properly?

If he is not a complete rude and insulting jerk, there is very little a teacher can do. He simply is who he is. And a teacher hopes that everyone just gets along as best they can in a very fluid and unpredictable setting.

[waltzgirl]

When I'm in large group classes, the teacher has the couples make a circle around the room so it's easy to rotate to the next partner without someone having to run the length of the room when they get to the end of line. Extra ladies are sprinkled around the circle, so that occasionally each lady rotates to "no partner," but everyone shares that incovenience equally. Works great. Takes less time than people reshuffling themselves randomly and no awkwardness.

If the teacher can't or won't do anything about this guy, then take the offensive: next time you rotate to him, pass him by and go to the next guy or, if no one is free, take a position by yourself. Talk to the other ladies and start a trend.

[Backstreet]

I think most teachers see it but don't really address it for a few reasons.

I have a big group class at the college where I teach. I let them do it a few times, then yell rotate. I think people should be reasonable enough to move on to someone they have not danced with. I can't watch and count every single person. And sometimes I notice a general tendancy for some people to end up together. How do I know they aren't just liking to dance with each other, or maybe she is monopolizing him.

There are always tend to be a few women that seem slower to move in for a guy, and often stand on the perimiter. (or in my case extra men standing around) How do I know if they are just shy and need me to get them a partner, or if they honestly don't mind letting the other women try it as they feel okay enough with the material to not need a partner at that moment.

Honestly I can't force a guy to dance with someone. If the group is small enough I can control it and say "Ladies move one to the right to find your next partner" But in a larger setting that is just sometimes unreasonable when lines are not straight, and the distance from one end to the next is a long hike. You just have to let them mix and hope for the best. DOI your teacher is a bit intense don't cha think... and controling his group class is not that hard with the number of people that attend, the fact that it is latin/rhythm so couples are stationary and stay in a fixed spot therefore the line stays absolutely straight. It also is conducted in a smallish space so the spread of the group is not an issue.

What does everyone think as a teacher we are going to say to this guy? "Hey buddy, sometimes I notice you avoid certain people. Can you be more obliging to try to dance with all of the ladies?" And how will this change his behavior? Because I bet if he is as blatant as you say... then he is so socially inept that trying to shame him into submission simply won't work? So then what is left...asking him not to come to class? Why... because he doesn't rotate properly?

If he is not a complete rude and insulting jerk, there is very little a teacher can do. He simply is who he is. And a teacher hopes that everyone just gets along as best they can in a very fluid and unpredictable setting.

I agree with this. There isn't much the instructor can do.

1) Maybe he really enjoys dancing with these girls. Maybe the one that is above her head he has fun with cause he feels he's teaching her? (Or helping in some way)

2) Like also stated, if he isn't completely rude or insulting the teacher cannot do much.

3) (This I don't understand so it is a legitimate question) -- Why would you want to dance with someone that didn't want to dance with you? A partner dance is a two way connection. If one person isn't into it personally I don't have much fun with it. So even if the teacher "forced" him it doesn't sound like he'd be into it much.

4) You are blaming the man but it sounds like the women are as much the problem. If they know the process too, why aren't they saying "She was here first" instead of skipping over you? He isn't forcing these girls to dance with him they are skipping you as much as he is skipping you.

[meow]

If the teacher can't or won't do anything about this guy, then take the offensive: next time you rotate to him, pass him by and go to the next guy or, if no one is free, take a position by yourself. Talk to the other ladies and start a trend.

Great Idea!! :D

[danceronice]

You just have to let them mix and hope for the best. DOI your teacher is a bit intense don't cha think... and controling his group class is not that hard with the number of people that attend, the fact that it is latin/rhythm so couples are stationary and stay in a fixed spot therefore the line stays absolutely straight. It also is conducted in a smallish space so the spread of the group is not an issue.

You said it, Larinda, I didn't. Preface here--I am viewing this through the filter of one particular group teacher who is probably not the typical example of the species. However, I happen to think he's really good at teaching groups and I get a lot out of the classes when he's the one teaching them. YMMV. Of course it works, even with the more nervous/reluctant students (and I wish I knew how he did it--I could use it with my Learn to Skaters. There may also be coloring my view--in a skating group lesson we have to, for safety if nothing else, keep a pretty tight rein on everyone. If I say "Skate to the blue line" that is where you are going, full stop.) Yes, he is intense, very much so, and he also seems to teach the class more with the students who are competing than social dancers, but honestly? I'd much prefer that to a teacher letting bad behavior slide. (And frankly when they're teaching the groups for party, or the salsa class, I've never seen the other teachers not rotate everyone, either. He has a slightly easier time, true, especially because he's got a core group of regulars who know how the class works, but still--if some people are rotating, everyone should be. There are leads I don't particularly like dancing with, but I don't try to avoid them when it's my turn. If I'm going to social dance, I have to learn to dance with everyone. And even a lead who isn't very good is better than dancing alone--I find in group class there's a major difference in practicing alone and trying it with a partner. Partnered makes it a lot trickier and I have to work on staying over my foot and keeping balanced more. If you're not getting partner time because one of the people in class is being a snob or a twit, you're losing out on what you're paying for.

Yeah, people have preferences--there are a couple really good leads in both the groups I go to, and if I'm having trouble I'll try and beeline for them when we start because I know they can help me just by leading it correctly. But I still rotate through everyone. As I'm now just good enough to know how much I suck, I phase I suspect I'll be at for a while, I can see where I get something out of almost every partner.

Reason 1) Backstreet gave--honestly, if he thinks he's teaching, he needs to knock it off. That's the only person I'll actively avoid if at all possible and whom I dread rotating through, the guy who keeps trying to tell me what to do like he knows more than the teacher. (He comes to the party classes.) I've found, so far, the guys who really know what they're doing don't usually offer too much unsolicited advice. 99% of those who are beginners like me know it and are trying. It's the ones who are trying to impress you and actually have no idea what they're doing who want to cut in on the teacher. I think that would be MORE reason to complain. No one is paying for a group class to get lessons from the other students.

I do kind of like waltzgirl's suggestion--but would he get the message ;) ?

[elisedance]

It's the ones who are trying to impress you and actually have no idea what they're doing who want to cut in on the teacher. I think that would be MORE reason to complain. No one is paying for a group class to get lessons from the other students.

There's a great sig that seems to have disappeared on definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced dancers that just nails this. Can someone dig it up again?? If they do I will add it to the signatures thread.

[danceronice]

Was that the one...it ended "Advanced dancers dance with everyone?" I remember seeing it somewhere on here. Beginners only want to dance with advanced dancers, etc.

I rotate through everyone. It's what we're supposed to be doing the way our classes run, and if a class is supposed to rotate, you're supposed to dance with everyone, with everyone doing what they're supposed to be doing. We even have one married couple who compete together, and they rotate.

[Larinda McRaven]

I wasn't picking on K, I actaully am pretty impressed with the way he keeps things going like clockwork. As fpr the party classes, I had sat in on a few when I wasn't booked that time slot, and the people do pretty much mill around and the rotation is pretty random. It is 99 percent of the time Chris and 99 percent of the time samba. I never heard him once say "Hey you, you haven't danced with that lady. You need to rotate better."

As for letting bad behavior slide, I have to just say that we are all adults. I am no ones Mommy (although I have been called the DF Mommy on a few occassions) and can't spend my life scolding people that don't behave exactly as a few people assume they should.

Here is a quote from a speaker I listen to. And it makes perfect sense to me although the grammer/language may be odd for others.


You say, "Oh, let's get along!" And what each of you mean is, "You do what I want." A peaceful world means, "Everybody wanting what I want. Going along with what I want." And the only problem with that is, there are more than one of you, and you have endless desires that are born within you.

The ultimate experience is, everyone having their experience and launching their individual rockets of desire, and the Universe yielding to all of them simultaneously. And everybody not worrying about what anybody else created....

What a world that is, when there are endless desirers, who are allowing the fulfillment of their own desires.

[Larinda McRaven]

I can only imagine who you are talking about at the parties. But do you really think that Andy having a chat with him about his behaviour is going to change him. People are as people are.

A studio is a delicate place with LOTS of people having egos, many of them quite fragile. If everyone were forced into a gestapo like mentality of "do it this way or get out" studios would go out of business. They are fluid, people are fluid, we have to forgive Everyone for their personal quirks and idiosyncrasies (even the creepy guys in group classes and at the parties) and just manage ouselves and have a good time.

And I do agree, if it bugs someone so much why don't they address the guy... or the lady that gets picked over them.

[danceronice]

The parties have gotten better--guys by the stage, we rotate down the line--where I do give Chris MAJOR props is he dances with the followers, too. And when he subbed for the T/W classes, he also went down the line of leaders and followed them, too. This makes sense to me.

And I would take intense as a compliment, myself. PK probably would, too, at least coming from another pro. And I respond well to intense--possibly why I'm very much on the side of "You will all rotate and you will dance with everyone" rather than willy-nilly. I tend to freak a bit when there is no structure. I'd also be, as I suspect the OP was, a bit insulted. If the guy were a part of an am/am couple and just really, really didn't want to dance with anyone besides his partner, I'd STILL be annoyed but I'd understand. If he's just wanting to try and impress the "pretty ones", then he's not taking this very seriously and that would hack me off.

Re the party problem child: I just mentioned it to Chris at my next private and asked how to deal. It's a party, so it's not like they can do anything about him, but I really hated being lectured at by someone whom I can now tell has no clue what they're doing and wanted a way out of it without being rude or having to not take the group lesson. I'd rather dance with a lead who can't lead at all, frankly, and is just having a good time, than someone who THINKS he knows what he's doing and is just yanking me around. I have enough technical problems without being helped into them.

[Chris Stratton]

If I'm going to social dance, I have to learn to dance with everyone.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Willing to give it a try perhaps, but if dancing with someone doesn't work, I don't think you are under any obligation at a social to do so again. Or even at a class, after a larger number of trys.

Some people bring a sufficient set of critical skills to a social, irrespective of their overall technical development, and some people don't. There's not really much point in wasting time on those who lack and do not work to develop the partnering skills that would make social dancing possible, unless you have some other sort of interest in them...

Those aren't instant decisions of course, and there needs to be some allowance for beginners, but beginners who are going to get it tend to get the key social-enabling skills quite early in comparison to their technical development.

[DWise1]

There's a great sig that seems to have disappeared on definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced dancers that just nails this. Can someone dig it up again?? If they do I will add it to the signatures thread.
I had saved it for my quotes page in my Palm. Along with a parody from the female perspective:

The Four Stages of Dancing
(according to Dick Crum):
1. Beginning dancer: Knows nothing.
2. Intermediate dancer: Knows everything, but is too good to dance with beginners.
3. Hotshot dancer: Too good to dance with anyone.
4. Advanced dancer: Dances everything, especially with beginners.

The four stages of dancing (female perspective):
1. Beginning dancer: Knows nothing but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
2. Intermediate dancer: Knows a little bit but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
3. Hotshot dancer: Knows something but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
4. Advanced dancer: Knows a lot but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
(with apologies to Zhena and Dick Crum)

[DWise1]

Well, in my ballroom classes if anyone, anyone at all, messes up the rotation, then the instructor has a fit. Rotation is one thing that we dare not ever get wrong.

One exception in all classes is for the rare occasion that the couple doesn't want to participate in the rotation, in which case we prefer to place them at the end of a line.

The only other exception would be my ex-wife. Long ago -- before the divorce and after she refused to attend a class with me because that was the only chance I ever had to hold her -- I had tried to entice her into a Lindy class with the promise that she could just pass me by in the rotation. If we were to ever show up in the same class (assuming that she wouldn't just storm out), then my offer is still open.

[jhpark]

is the female version saying that female beginners only want to dance with advanced males, or the reverse?

[elisedance]

I had saved it for my quotes page in my Palm. Along with a parody from the female perspective:

The four stages of dancing (female perspective):
1. Beginning dancer: Knows nothing but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
2. Intermediate dancer: Knows a little bit but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
3. Hotshot dancer: Knows something but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
4. Advanced dancer: Knows a lot but only wants to dance with advanced dancers.
(with apologies to Zhena and Dick Crum)


Hey, DW, :blush: I wrote that parody! I though no one saw it ...

[elisedance]

is the female version saying that female beginners only want to dance with advanced males, or the reverse?

I guess I can take that question :); the former. Its a joke on the feeling that many women express that they would dance wonderfully if only they had the perfect lead. Thats one situation where pro/am can be quite an education!

[meow]

In a social dance 'class' where you will have people of different levels and the instruction is to rotate, then all participants should do so. Not to, is disrespectful to the instructor and the other class members, which will only cause resentment by the ladies this man regularly passes over. Better to have an instructor tell him what his role as a participant is and he gets angry and leaves, then you lose a larger number of ladies due to the studio condoning this behaviour.

[Chris Stratton]

When the rotation is literally a line, than any deviation from linearity stands out a lot.
But in classes for traveling dances, often it's not quite so organized.

In terms of class dynamics, retention, education... I think you really have to ask, if someone who is progressing in their dance development is avoiding someone else who is progressing in their dance development, isn't there probably a personal reason why they are doing so - something that is more important to them than dancing itself?

And if someone who is not progressing in their dance development is avoiding someone who is, or someone who is progressing is avoiding someone who is not, are those situations really so bad? Is it ultimately healthy for the class to be retaining people who are not in a frame of mind or situation to learn something?

[meow]

I do see your point, Chris. But usually here those dtudents in a social class are almost all beginners or of lower levels who have been attending longer. Those who go want to learn 'something' of dancing but also want to enjoy the class. Those who really want to learn more usually move to different classes after a while. For most, this is an introduction to dancing and the last thing anyone would want IMHO, is a negative or unhappy experience.

[Rugby]

Sounds like this guy would not be much of a loss if he was kicked out or left.

[danceronice]

I guess I can take that question :); the former. Its a joke on the feeling that many women express that they would dance wonderfully if only they had the perfect lead. Thats one situation where pro/am can be quite an education!

Dancing with a good lead basically teaches you to know how much you need to work on, because when something goes wrong then, it's probably you. (Read: me. I'm in the 'apologizing for everything' phase.) But it does make life easier. I'm getting spoilt by pro/am--I'm so used to getting leads that are almost impossible to miss. I also know now what a good lead feels like, and I'm so happy when I get it. Especially in Smooth. When that's well-lead, and I stay over my feet, it's like floating.

[elisedance]

I also know now what a good lead feels like, and I'm so happy when I get it. Especially in Smooth. When that's well-lead, and I stay over my feet, it's like floating.

I think its something that can make a pro/am trained partner quite an asset to a later Am one (if it its handled well by both that is). Having got 'spoiled' as you say, on excellent leads you can point out when it feels right or wrong - or at least when its working for you. After a while of sometimes resisting this input I think DP has learned to really appreciate it - when I say a lead feels good we know that even if we are not doing the step perfectly we are at least in synch and going in the right direction.

[meow]

Sounds like this guy would not be much of a loss if he was kicked out or left.

Agree. Perhaps the class would actually improve and grow.

[Chris Stratton]

Having got 'spoiled' as you say, on excellent leads you can point out when it feels right or wrong - or at least when its working for you. After a while of sometimes resisting this input I think DP has learned to really appreciate it - when I say a lead feels good we know that even if we are not doing the step perfectly we are at least in synch and going in the right direction.

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment here.

Sounds like if it's wrong but the way he remembers it should be... that's bad.

But if it's still wrong but the way you remember it should be... that's good

;-)

[Larinda McRaven]

Sounds like this guy would not be much of a loss if he was kicked out or left.
Agree. Perhaps the class would actually improve and grow.

Why are we kicking this guy out?
Because he prefers not to dance with you?

And the class would improve how?
Because there is one less person to make you feel bad?

No one said he is saying bad things, or teaching, or even that he is a really bad lead with stinky breathe, or that he is a hitting on girls, or his grip is too deathly tight.

I mean come on honestly. HE is doing nothing to anyone, but being a pciky partner. The only person that can insult you is you. I think people need to just relax.

As a studio owner I have never kicked someone out. And now at my new studio I honestly asked the sister-studio owner if he thought that we should ask a guy to leave the party last week. I have NO IDEA why I wanted to do that. The other owner said "Why" I stuttered and said, "I don't like dancing with him, and neither do the other girls" I suddenly felt ASHAMED. And good for the other owner to say to me on a huige thick russian accent "Get over yourself. If you don't like dancing with him just say no. He's not hurting anyone" Thanks for brutal russian honesty.

[Peaches]

Not to be snarky, Larida, but purely out of curiosity...

You say that you've never kicked someone out. (I assume either out of a class or out of a dance.) Can you see a situation where you would, for legitimate reasons? What would tip things to the point where you'd ask someone to leave?

[Larinda McRaven]

It is not a snarky question.
To kick someone out... would take a lot. Really.

I know now that during the last party I had a personal issue that was making me cranky and I realize that I was going to take it out on this poor guy, just because I don't enjoy dancing with him, a personal whim. I am terribly ashamed that I was going to abuse my power in that situation just to take out a bit of frustration on an unsespecting bystander. Even though the vast majority of women in my party would have thanked me... I was still worng because I was having my own personal insecurites and blaming someone else. And I really feel that when we attack someone else we really need to see that it is ourselves who are out of balance and we are looking for something outside to make us feel better. That is from a personal stand-point.

But from a busines stand-point... It would really have to be bad.
You can't get outwardly angry and violent. That is about it. That would include insulting students or staff, cussing, groping... And even then, you see people on the verge and realize that they are good steady customers and may just be having an off night. Unless they are continually disruptive and violent or threatening, there just isn't a reason. And a pewrson not liking that someone elses is socially inept but harmless, is not a reason.

Over the years I have seen...
Women flashing their boobs (she is still there, although clothed) You can be falling down drunk. You can sit like a lump on a log and scowl at everyone, you can refuse to dance with anyone except your hearts desire. You can stink , you can have bad breathe, you can wear 70's polyester with a bad toupee. This is from California to Missouri to Florida to Maine... I have literally been in studios all over.

This business is FULL of mismatched imperfect people. Not everyone is going to be cool and trendy, not everyone is going to like everyone else. And if people could just for one day hear ALL OF THE COMPLAINTS that come and go to the staff and management of a studio, your ears would shrivel and your head would explode. Honestly, someone not rotating properly is the LEAST of concerns.

I have been teaching for 14 years. I have coached all over the country. I have been a business owner now twice. As a student when you go to the studio it is all about YOU and you wanting to have a good time, and not get your proverbial toes stepped on. But as a studio owner it is all about EVERYONE, and making it all flow, the people, the music, the staff, the money, the lights, the temperature, the neighbors. I am not complaining, these are simple the job requirements, and it is a great job. I don't mean to imply that we should ignore the details either... but there are things you can control and things that you just have to accept as wierd human behaviour.

[Peaches]

Thanks for the answer. I agree that things look vastly different from the studio owner's perspective, and that social ineptness (??? ineptitude??? neither looks right, now) and a host of other off-putting traits is not a reason. I guess I was just kind of curious b/c (IIRC) it seemed like you'd never kick anyone out, ever, and that just raised my eyebrows a bit.

I guess I take a bit of an issue with the groping thing... I understand a good customer and all that, but tolerating roaming hands (unwelcome) rubs me a bit the wrong way. Perhaps that's not how you meant it, and if it isn't, I apologize. But a warning, at least, followed by removal seems preferable. (From a student's perspective! :-) )

[Sagitta]

Very useful thread...Lots of commonsense talk. Thanks. :-)

[elisedance]

You can be falling down drunk. You can sit like a lump on a log and scowl at everyone, you can refuse to dance with anyone except your hearts desire. You can stink , you can have bad breath, you can wear 70's polyester with a bad toupee.


Hey, Larinda, I know that guy! :p

[Peaches]

Lol. I think we all do!

[Larinda McRaven]

this gentleman likes to 1) stay with the partner he is currently dancing with, especially if she is young, thin and cute or 2) totally skip over you if there is a young/thin/cute lady behind you....

This is a long session of classes, so I will be dealing with this until just before Christmas! I am at a loss as to how to deal with this guy. I also see him at many social dances, and of course he only dances with a certain type of partner, even though they usually cannot keep up with his repetoire of moves!

If I were you, Roxy, in that situation I would simply pretend he is not there. If there are really less man than women, and you are going to be waiting around, just wait one more time and skip him. If and when he does come to you a simple "no thanks, I think I will wait for the next one." and then scoot over. Just move over, practice on yourself, and get better, with out his help, you don't really need him anyway.

And if it just your pride you are worried about, well there is always some young pretty thin thing standing just behind all of us. It is best to get over that as quickly as possible.

[Larinda McRaven]

I guess I take a bit of an issue with the groping thing...
...
Perhaps that's not how you meant it, and if it isn't, I apologize. But a warning, at least, followed by removal seems preferable. (From a student's perspective! :-) )

I put the groping in with the getting outwardly angry and violent, including cussing, and verbally attacking students or staff.
Maybe that paragraph does not read well. I may go back and reword it to better reflect what I meant.

[Peaches]

Ah, I guess I read it as something to possibly be tolerated if the groper was otherwise a good customer and having a bad day.

[Larinda McRaven]

4) You are blaming the man but it sounds like the women are as much the problem. If they know the process too, why aren't they saying "She was here first" instead of skipping over you? He isn't forcing these girls to dance with him they are skipping you as much as he is skipping you.

This is also a great point.

[Larinda McRaven]

NO, I suppose that a grope is a "one strike and you are out". But the getting rude and nasty, if it is abnormal for that person, would be dealt with on a case by case basis. And probably just asking them to "Go home and cool off. Come back tomorrow or when ever you feel you are ready to be nice."

[danceronice]

Groping would be a new one on me--the one time I had a guy with his hands, uh...slipping (his right, a little too far around front) I just reached over and fixed it. I think he just wasn't quite sure how to hold. (He's actually quite a nice guy, just a tad awkward.)

Even the obnoxious wannabe teacher I couldn't see kicking out (I think he also hacks me off because he's a bit rude when asking questions--never says please or excuse me, sometimes doesn't even phrase it as a request but a demand, of whoever's teaching the party class. Dude, this is someone who is a much better dancer than you or I will ever likely be, has knowledge they are trying to impart, and who isn't a servant. Try being polite. If I'd ever talked to my riding trainers like that, after they got done yelling at me my parents would have taken a piece out of me.) He's RUDE, but he's not dangerous. I just avoid him during general dancing. But I think if you're in a group class, you do what you're supposed to be doing, and if that includes rotating, you rotate through everyone. Not a kick-outable (is that word? Oh, well, is now) offense, but something the instructor ought to have dealt with quietly when it started.

Reading my own posts, I wonder if it's not just colored by the group instructor I'm used to, but spending most of my work day explaing to 5-to-12-year-olds why the rules that apply to everyone apply to them, too. (Though the day I resort to "Because I said so, that's why" I'll know I'm not just turning into a teacher, but my mother.)

[Chris Stratton]

This business is FULL of mismatched imperfect people.

I agree that ballroom attract all types, and I think that's actually a strength.

However, we might not want to go to far with that.

There's a difference between accepting the condition in which people first walk in the door as a starting point, and accepting it as an eternal ending point. I like to think that with example and gentle pressure, many of the misfits can grow not just in dance skills, but personally as well.

Part of the gentle pressure would be something of a lessening of tolerance over time. Another would be a bit of a connection between counterproductive behavior and decreasing opportunities.

Still way short of kicking someone out, someone who is not making an effort to fit in may find themselves gradually increasingly excluded by their classmates over time, and I don't think it would be productive for the staff to take any action to restore those squandered opportunities. Where staff action would be warranted would be to insure that everyone new gets a chance to grow into things, rather than being instantly cut off as a result of the oddities they walk in the door with.

[wooh]

I like to think that with example and gentle pressure, many of the misfits can grow not just in dance skills, but personally as well.


And sometimes the misfit that needs to grow is one's self. For example, Larinda seems to me (although I only know her online) a relatively wise and experienced dance pro. But she admits to having an off night and needing someone to point that out to her. For that moment, Larinda, a model of everything one should be as a member of the ballroom community, was actually the misfit.
Maybe instead of looking at how others can improve with "gentle pressure" we need to look more at ourselves, and how we can gently pressure ourselves to grow personally.
:pRemember when you point a finger at someone else, 3 fingers are pointing back at you.:p

[Terpsichorean Clod]

:pRemember when you point a finger at someone else, 3 fingers are pointing back at you.:p
Some cultures point with the entire hand. ;)

[quixotedlm]

i think that teachers owe students a safe environment to learn. if there is a rude student, either he should be asked to act nice, or get out.

this is different from a social dance environment where birds of all feather all welcome. that's an adult environment - so let grown ups deal with one another as they please in a peaceful manner. but in a classroom (even if it is the same venue as the social dance), the obnoxious student deserves to be disciplined.

as much as some on this thread want to treat this story as "so what, ignore him and let him be, and just don't take it too personally", the fact is that he is acting insultingly towards the OP and deserves to be kicked out unceremoniously. that it might not be in the best business interests of the teacher is an altogether different issue...

[meow]

Women flashing their boobs (she is still there, although clothed) You can be falling down drunk.
This business is FULL of mismatched imperfect people. Not everyone is going to be cool and trendy, not everyone is going to like everyone else. And if people could just for one day hear ALL OF THE COMPLAINTS that come and go to the staff and management of a studio, your ears would shrivel and your head would explode. Honestly, someone not rotating properly is the LEAST of concerns.

I have been teaching for 14 years. I have coached all over the country. I have been a business owner now twice. As a student when you go to the studio it is all about YOU and you wanting to have a good time, and not get your proverbial toes stepped on. But as a studio owner it is all about EVERYONE, and making it all flow, the people, the music, the staff, the money, the lights, the temperature, the neighbors. I am not complaining, these are simple the job requirements, and it is a great job. I don't mean to imply that we should ignore the details either... but there are things you can control and things that you just have to accept as wierd human behaviour.

I have personally known two dancers, who at that time were competitive am's, not dancing together or at the same studio, who have been asked to leave for different reasons. And the reasons were nothing compared to some of things you have described. I have heard of one studio that appartently has requested a number of people not to return.

If someone was drunk or flashed their boobs, there would be no warning - you would be out on your ear.

I know that studio owners have loads of responsibilities and obligations and I agree that you cannot throw out people willy-nilly. We are all different and need to respect those differences, even if they are weird. But, here, selective partnering in a group class would be frowned upon and something would be said to that person. They would not be kicked out for that reason though but they would be spoken to and most fall into line. The studio doesn't expect everyone to like each other and some really don't, but whilst in their establishment they expect a code of conduct from everyone - basic common courtesy, tolerance and behaviour.

[Joe]

I know one (former) studio owner who has kicked people out of his studio, basically on personal whims, like the people "insulted" him by taking lessons from someone else or stuff like that.

[Peaches]

I think that with regard to the OP's issue, there are plenty of interim measures that can be taken short of kicking the guy out. Seems to me, the teacher could explain the rotation so that the guys stay put and the women move. Or, try to make it very clear that everyone needs to dance with everyone else.

I'd think the key would be to not point fingers, but establish clearly from the outset what th expectation is. Then the offender can be "reminded" when something happens. If it's laughed off and treated as an innocent "mistake," he can probably be corrected without causing a scene. It can be turned into a joke.

Either way, I think it's got to be done by the teacher leading it off and setting the tone. Although as someone else pointed out, the other women could speak up and point out that they're not next, but the girl he just skipped should be.

There should be plenty of ways of dealing with this guy that aren't just ignoring the problem, and that don't go so far as to throw him out.

[danceronice]

I know one (former) studio owner who has kicked people out of his studio, basically on personal whims, like the people "insulted" him by taking lessons from someone else or stuff like that.

Oh, good grief. I've heard of skating coaches like that--heck, I've heard of skating coaches who try to control whom their skaters SPEAK to off the ice. I think it's only good manners to inform your coach/pro/whomever that you're taking from someone else, but I've never had a skating coach flip out when I asked. And when I mentioned a possibility of dancing with a guy from one of the collegiate teams, the only thing my pro asked was that if I had any questions about something I learned, come to him, something I would have done anyway. (Fell through, but that's I think a good thing ultimately. The collegiate guy is into Latin and that's just not my division.)

[reb]

You can be falling down drunk. You can sit like a lump on a log and scowl at everyone, you can refuse to dance with anyone except your hearts desire. You can stink , you can have bad breathe, you can wear 70's polyester with a bad toupee.

Hey, Larinda, I know that guy! :p
Elise - I swear, that wasn't me, really!!!

[meow]

I'm not suggesting he should be thrown out without trying to solve the problem first. A teacher could speak to the class collectively regarding rotation, what is expected in the class ie: not skipping ladies who are the ones rotating etc.
If he continues his current behaviour the teacher could then speak to him privately. If that doesn't work, then perhaps it could be suggested that this type of class may not be what he is looking for. He may move to a different class within the same studio where you can pick your partners.
If all fails, then say 'bye bye.'

[Roxyg4321]

4) You are blaming the man but it sounds like the women are as much the problem. If they know the process too, why aren't they saying "She was here first" instead of skipping over you? He isn't forcing these girls to dance with him they are skipping you as much as he is skipping you.[/quote]

If I notice that a follow has been left to her own devices during one particularly long partner change, I will often encourage my lead to go and dance with her. I am not sure why these other ladies don't say anything!

[fascination]

I agree with this. There isn't much the instructor can do.

1) Maybe he really enjoys dancing with these girls. Maybe the one that is above her head he has fun with cause he feels he's teaching her? (Or helping in some way)

2) Like also stated, if he isn't completely rude or insulting the teacher cannot do much.

3) (This I don't understand so it is a legitimate question) -- Why would you want to dance with someone that didn't want to dance with you? A partner dance is a two way connection. If one person isn't into it personally I don't have much fun with it. So even if the teacher "forced" him it doesn't sound like he'd be into it much.

4) You are blaming the man but it sounds like the women are as much the problem. If they know the process too, why aren't they saying "She was here first" instead of skipping over you? He isn't forcing these girls to dance with him they are skipping you as much as he is skipping you.
agree that there isn't much a teacher can do...but if a teacher is made aware ...they can make the studio owner aware and a studio owner can and should make a member aware of certain behavioral expectations of the studio....beyond that, yes, I think it makes sense to just innocently proclaim ...LOUDLY..."hey bud, you're holdin up the line, it's my turn"

[elisedance]

....beyond that, yes, I think it makes sense to just innocently proclaim ...LOUDLY..."hey bud, you're holdin up the line, it's my turn"

way to go fasc!! :cool:

[meow]

4) You are blaming the man but it sounds like the women are as much the problem. If they know the process too, why aren't they saying "She was here first" instead of skipping over you? He isn't forcing these girls to dance with him they are skipping you as much as he is skipping you.

If I notice that a follow has been left to her own devices during one particularly long partner change, I will often encourage my lead to go and dance with her. I am not sure why these other ladies don't say anything![/quote]

I see your point but that means the non- skipped lady will have to 'stop' the rotation of the dance by not dancing with him to say that - that can be very hard as the dance itself may stop. She then has to say why she did that and 'accuse' the man of passing over the lady ahead of her.
I believe the studio/teacher has a responsibility to all in the class to make sure everyone follows the proper rotation protocal.

[Roxyg4321]

Well, I think I have figure out a coping technique for this particular class with this gentleman. Our class is in a long, narrow space. Thus, our instructor has us in two lines, and I have just avoided his line for the last two weeks. I know it is not a solution to the problem itself - but it really was robbing my joy out of going to this class when I had to deal with his shenanigans.

[jennyisdancing]

Well, I think I have figure out a coping technique for this particular class with this gentleman. Our class is in a long, narrow space. Thus, our instructor has us in two lines, and I have just avoided his line for the last two weeks. I know it is not a solution to the problem itself - but it really was robbing my joy out of going to this class when I had to deal with his shenanigans.

That's a good solution for now, but please don't hesitate to talk to the instructor, too. Remember, it's not just your problem. This guy sounds like he's probably obnoxious in many situations and to many people.

[samina]

I think it makes sense to just innocently proclaim ...LOUDLY..."hey bud, you're holdin up the line, it's my turn"

luv it... lol. yep, definitely how i'd handle it. with a smile, of course. :)

[elisedance]

Well, I think I have figure out a coping technique for this particular class with this gentleman. Our class is in a long, narrow space. Thus, our instructor has us in two lines, and I have just avoided his line for the last two weeks. I know it is not a solution to the problem itself - but it really was robbing my joy out of going to this class when I had to deal with his shenanigans.


I think you should get together with as many of teh women in the class as possible and arange one day for every single one of them to refuse to dance with him. If you told them what was going on they would probably agree. I know that that is stirring things up - but why should he be allowed to single you out and make you feel so bad?

Maybe then the numbskull will start to get the message.
Grrrr.

I actually like fasc's answer the best - but that means making a scene of yourself which, for someone like me, is sort of normal behaviour but for you I guess not. :)