Does Corky Ballas have good salsa technique?

[nycsalsero]

Corky Ballas is a god in the ballroom world. I'm trying to find authoritative information on how to dance the salsa basic with perfect technique. This video makes salsa look weird though. Maybe I'm just not used to it? Does anyone see a problem with using American Rhythm Mambo technique for salsa technique?

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=196332&fr=

[Tony_Salvi]

anyone else think he looks off time? Maybe I'm not counting right but it looks like he starts the step on2 but doesn't land until 2.5...:???:


edit: Nevermind...when I view the video his mouth is not in synch with his words, so I think the audio is out of synch.

[tangotime]

Corky Ballas is a god in the ballroom world. I'm trying to find authoritative information on how to dance the salsa basic with perfect technique. This video makes salsa look weird though. Maybe I'm just not used to it? Does anyone see a problem with using American Rhythm Mambo technique for salsa technique?

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=196332&fr=


If I had ever danced salsa like that in the latin clubs I visited over the yrs-- they would have laughed me off the floor Nik knows what I mean .

This is the perfect e.g,. of what salsa is not . No Alma y corazon y para sabor .

[nowhiteshoes]

Corky Ballas is a god in the ballroom world. I'm trying to find authoritative information on how to dance the salsa basic with perfect technique. This video makes salsa look weird though. Maybe I'm just not used to it? Does anyone see a problem with using American Rhythm Mambo technique for salsa technique?

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=196332&fr=

this video's hilarious. :confused:. look at the pauses he does whilst doing the basic

[saludas]

This is Mambo, not salsa. Also, this video is at least 15 years old, so it has a different look than the salsa folks have today. However, dancing like Corky would be a high goal to achieve in ANY technique.

[tangotime]

This is Mambo, not salsa. Also, this video is at least 15 years old, so it has a different look than the salsa folks have today. However, dancing like Corky would be a high goal to achieve in ANY technique.

Thats the whole point !! -- I dont want my salsa to look like my Intern. Latin--- My Intern. Rumba ,does not look like my Bolero .

His ability is not in question -- its all about style .

And by the way, pretty much all the B / Room afficianados , look and dance salsa similarly ( have been around many of them socially )-- its not wrong-- just different .

Also remember-- he -- like many others -- are products of the Amer. chain schools system , where Mambo rules .

[sweavo]

This is what is meant by "ballroom mambo"... if you have lots of time and enthusiam, learn it, then let it go. Expect raised eyebrows in a salsa club while you are working on this though :-)

[tj]

Yeah, I personally wouldn't want to dance like that. ;)

So let me pose this question: is it a good or bad thing that collectively, there's a peer pressure thing about how we all think salsa should be danced?

[dance234]

There is no such thing as a perfect basic in a social dance. Not to say there aren't better and worse versions.

If you're looking for a model of someone who has the intellectual and physical ability+training found in the ballroom world, has very good teaching ability, and retains a foot in the social world, I would refer you locally (NYC area) to Jose Decamps. Cheaper and more available, Edgar Osorio.

[Sagitta]

This is ballroom mambo. Salsa and ballroom don't mix.

[SDsalsaguy]

Also, this video is at least 15 years old, so it has a different look than the salsa folks have today.
Sorry saludas, but that clip with Kristina is clearly from within the past year or so at most.

As a general reply to the OP:

(1) I don't think there is such a thing as "a" perfect technique for salsa.

(2) I think that while some of the mechanics from ballroom motion might be "translatable," these are not what are being discussed/explained in this clip (aside, perhaps, from the stillness of the open & closed frame/handhold)

(3) Ballroom mambo, as practiced today, is designed to for presentation and to be "readable" from great distance -- this is relatively antithetical to social salsa dancing where the key element is the experience of your partner. As such most of what is popularly recognized as good salsa
(by salser@s that is) has a smoothness to it that is different from the clear punctuation of ballroom mambo.

[SDsalsaguy]

This is ballroom mambo. Salsa and ballroom don't mix.
I think this overstates the case Sagitta. They are certainly far from the same thing. That said, they share a common historical heritage and elements of each can be applicable across genre. The problem (at least as I see it) is when the differences are not recognized and hence adjusted to.

[Big10]

I think this overstates the case Sagitta. They are certainly far from the same thing. That said, they share a common historical heritage and elements of each can be applicable across genre. The problem (at least as I see it) is when the differences are not recognized and hence adjusted to.
I agree with SDsalsaguy. I've said it before and I'll say it again: nightclub Salsa dancers (and especially performers/competitors) are adopting more ballroom styling than most people like to admit.

I'm like a few others who wouldn't try to emulate Corky Ballas, but I can respect what he does in the context of what he's trying to do (if that makes sense). Ballroom style is different from New York style -- and both of those styles are different from Cuban style or LA style. Nevertheless, they're all just different styles of the same basic dance.


So let me pose this question: is it a good or bad thing that collectively, there's a peer pressure thing about how we all think salsa should be danced?
It's bad when the peer pressure is trying to get everybody to dance On2....;)

Just kidding (sort of :cool:). Seriously, though, I think peer pressure is good when it encourages people to be more compatible dance partners at a minimal level, but I think peer pressure is bad when it discourages the less popular styles in a community from even getting a foothold. In the latter case, it can become a situation of only one available dance style in a community -- rather than one "preferred" dance style with multiple options available on a person-by-person or club-by-club basis.

[sweavo]

There was a thread about the "Homogenization of salsa" ... personally, I think it's bad. I don't want perfect technique, I want connection, flavor, and to be surprised and delighted. If everyone does X styling with Y repertoire to Z music, then it's time for me to take up Krumping or something. (you would know how funny that was if you could see me)

[saludas]

Sorry saludas, but that clip with Kristina is clearly from within the past year or so at most.

A

Wow, yes of course you're right.

[noobster]

If I had ever danced salsa like that in the latin clubs I visited over the yrs-- they would have laughed me off the floor Nik knows what I mean .

This is the perfect e.g,. of what salsa is not.

Yah, ditto.

nycsalsero, if you think that looks nice and you want to look like that, go right ahead and look like that.

I have to ditto sweavo and say it might not make you too popular with followers. Personally I think it looks ridiculous and if I saw that guy heading for me in a club I'd probably go hide in the restroom.

(3) Ballroom mambo, as practiced today, is designed to for presentation and to be "readable" from great distance -- this is relatively antithetical to social salsa dancing where the key element is the experience of your partner. As such most of what is popularly recognized as good salsa (by salser@s that is) has a smoothness to it that is different from the clear punctuation of ballroom mambo.

Right on.

So let me pose this question: is it a good or bad thing that collectively, there's a peer pressure thing about how we all think salsa should be danced?
In any art, there is some collective understanding about what constitutes the art form, and what constitutes a 'good' example of the art form. The edges are always blurry, but if there is absolutely no general consensus about what's 'good' and what's not, you don't have a discrete art form. If there were no collective judgements about what constituted 'good salsa,' I could go out there and dance a schottische to Quitate la Mascara and nobody would blink an eye. But then there wouldn't be a dance form called 'salsa' per se.

If everyone does X styling with Y repertoire to Z music, then it's time for me to take up Krumping or something.
Yeah!! I wanna see sweavo krump!!! Youtube! Youtuuuuube!!! :D

[tj]

It's bad when the peer pressure is trying to get everybody to dance On2...
Dude, stop stealing my jokes! :wink:


Just kidding (sort of :cool:). Seriously, though, I think peer pressure is good when it encourages people to be more compatible dance partners at a minimal level, but I think peer pressure is bad when it discourages the less popular styles in a community from even getting a foothold. In the latter case, it can become a situation of only one available dance style in a community -- rather than one "preferred" dance style with multiple options available on a person-by-person or club-by-club basis.
Yeah, I think the tricky part is finding a common ground between you and another dancer if you come from different styles/backgrounds. It's weird how I can click with one student from an instructor but not another from the same school.

It's when I'm not clicking very well with the majority that I know that I need to start making adjustments quickly. (as was painfully obvious last week :rolleyes: :wink: )

[tj]

In any art, there is some collective understanding about what constitutes the art form, and what constitutes a 'good' example of the art form. The edges are always blurry, but if there is absolutely no general consensus about what's 'good' and what's not, you don't have a discrete art form. If there were no collective judgements about what constituted 'good salsa,' I could go out there and dance a schottische to Quitate la Mascara and nobody would blink an eye. But then there wouldn't be a dance form called 'salsa' per se.

Wow, I like this answer! :)

[tangotime]

. Personally I think it looks ridiculous and if I saw that guy heading for me in a club I'd probably go hide in the restroom.







:D

In all fairness to Corky-- style apart, I feel confident he would provide an excellent dance " experience " .

[SDsalsaguy]

In all fairness to Corky-- style apart, I feel confident he would provide an excellent dance " experience " .
Probably true in many respects given his years and level of experience, but that doesn't mean that the aesthetic he's displaying in this clip would be appealing to many in the salsa scene.

[tangotime]

Probably true in many respects given his years and level of experience, but that doesn't mean that the aesthetic he's displaying in this clip would be appealing to many in the salsa scene.


I dont believe any one ( ? ) . was disputing that-- to suggest in any possible way, that it would be an unrewarding experience , ( even from my position as a prof. ) seems highly unlikely .
To make a comparison, have heard from many ladies, over the yrs , who have danced with guys who look fab. , and yet, have been " pullled and pushed " for an entire song .--- so-- the old maxim--- never judge a book by its cover , should apply !

[Josh]

Just in case any would mistakenly associate Corky Ballas with a fly-by-night instructor with a video, he is a numerous-time US and world champion--just wanted to mention that.

The video must be understood in its context. He is teaching the basic mambo step. He is not dancing this for a show, or in competition. You might look at the video and think it's very stiff-looking, but it's supposed to look fairly subdued and calm, because he is simply focusing on the basic step, and this is likely to be viewed by newer dancers. If you see a live mambo competition, you will see how un-stiff it really is :-) This video is for instructional purposes and does not reflect how Corky himself really dances the mambo.

As SD mentioned, ballroom mambo has the distinct sharpness in its execution as opposed to salsa, and this and other things give it a different look and feel. I would not dance salsa this way socially the same way I would for a mambo competition. It's just different styles for different situations. Sometimes unfortunately people seem to think that you either have style/flavor OR you have technique, but it just isn't true. The best dancers have both.

[noobster]

The video must be understood in its context. He is teaching the basic mambo step. He is not dancing this for a show, or in competition. You might look at the video and think it's very stiff-looking, but it's supposed to look fairly subdued and calm, because he is simply focusing on the basic step, and this is likely to be viewed by newer dancers. If you see a live mambo competition, you will see how un-stiff it really is :-) This video is for instructional purposes and does not reflect how Corky himself really dances the mambo.

Hm, I didn't think it looked subdued and calm. I thought it looked gaudy and overly stylized - meant, as SDsalsaguy said, for presentation from afar.

I'm not sure this is about its being a basic video or not. I've seen plenty of DVDs where salsa instructors demonstrate a basic step and they look great to me, smooth and graceful.

I think the difference is that I come to this with an eye that has been conditioned to look for the fluidity and connection that characterize good social salsa, rather than whatever it is (stylization or frame or whatever - I dunno as I don't dance it) that characterizes good ballroom mambo.

Those of you who dance competition-oriented styles are used to this look and can evaluate it on its own merits.

[SDsalsaguy]

Quite fair noobster, as the first time I saw ballroom mambo in competition all it looked like to me was exceedingly rough and choppy salsa. Now that I am more familiar with both I've changed my assessment, but there certainly are different purposes and aesthetics involved in each, and I find it somewhat foolish to try assessing either by the standards of the other.

Very good salsa dancers appreciate what very good ballroom dancers do, just as very good ballroom dancers appreciate what very good salsa dancers do. At the risk of sounding overly harsh, those who say otherwise (from either camp) tend to lack understanding, be insecure, or both.

[noobster]

Quite fair noobster, as the first time I saw ballroom mambo in competition all it looked like to me was exceedingly rough and choppy salsa. Now that I am more familiar with both I've changed my assessment, but there certainly are different purposes and aesthetics involved in each, and I find it somewhat foolish to try assessing either by the standards of the other.
I don't disagree; but since nycsalsero was asking about using this ballroom mambo technique to improve his social salsa, I think it's fair to point out that social salser@s probably won't have the same high opinion of it that a ballroom person would.

Very good salsa dancers appreciate what very good ballroom dancers do, just as very good ballroom dancers appreciate what very good salsa dancers do. At the risk of sounding overly harsh, those who say otherwise (from either camp) tend to lack understanding, be insecure, or both.
Well, I admitted myself above that I lack an understanding of/appreciation for ballroom (and Latin), so don't worry about my ego. ;)

[SDsalsaguy]

I don't disagree; but since nycsalsero was asking about using this ballroom mambo technique to improve his social salsa, I think it's fair to point out that social salser@s probably won't have the same high opinion of it that a ballroom person would.
I agree 100%. Likewise, just because I appreciate both does not mean that I do so regardless of context!

Well, I admitted myself above that I lack an understanding of/appreciation for ballroom (and Latin), so don't worry about my ego. ;)
But that's exactly the thing -- you state this honestly and then don't denigrate the other style, only say it doesn't suit you. Everyone has their own tastes, and even hating a particular dance style (as a style) seems more than fair to me. Saying that the style isn't legitimate dancing, however, is where I think some cross the line (again, not you!).

[Josh]

I don't disagree; but since nycsalsero was asking about using this ballroom mambo technique to improve his social salsa, I think it's fair to point out that social salser@s probably won't have the same high opinion of it that a ballroom person would.

Yep, that's the point I think, you nailed it.

Again, I'll reiterate though that it would be unfortunate for a salsa dancer to not incorporate some of the basic technique involved here, despite their opinion of the overall look, as it can drastically improve their dancing without in any way making it less "fluid"...

I know this because I once resisted some of this technique, mistakenly thinking that it would "mess up" my salsa (when in fact mine was already messed up, silly me :o)--but in fact, it made it much better (and that's by anyone's standards I'd venture to guess).

[tangotime]

One should never confuse " style " with technique . ALL movement requires some form of technique ( good, bad or otherwise )
Techn. covers many aspects of " movement " in relation to music and dance . How, why, and where we choose to apply that knowledge , if done correctly, can have any desired effect we wish, on the eventual outcome .

Even non trained dancers, may have a " naturalness " about some of the aspects, that formulate a framework, within which they apply that innate ability .
The dichotomy ?--" street ", non trained etc. dancers, are using by and large, %90 of variations, adapted from the Ballroom genre , and modified to their particular experience . This is translated into a "personal style " .

It can be in musical interpretation, and or , execution of the material they using in that endeavour .

[Musique]

But the girl has amazing legs. Her leg and foot action is ten times more interesting than those endless are-you-bored-yet turns.

[Sunshines Partner]

Corky Ballas is a god in the ballroom world. I'm trying to find authoritative information on how to dance the salsa basic with perfect technique. This video makes salsa look weird though. Maybe I'm just not used to it? Does anyone see a problem with using American Rhythm Mambo technique for salsa technique?

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=196332&fr=


Shirley is a God in the Ballroom world. Not Corky.

[Blaxican]

I think it boils down to what do you want your dancing to look like. I started out in a chain ballroom dance school looking to dance salsa. It was not the same thing I saw in the clubs so i left after 4 months of being "coached" to learn Mambo, Rhumba, the Tango, and Samba, the Foxtrot, and the Waltz. That was not what I was looking for. I found a studio that only teaches salsa and I hit the jackpot,but I always find myself referring to some of those ballroom characteristics: frame, sharpness,etc at different points in a dance.
It's like tea: sweetened or unsweetened;lime,peach,or lemon

[JennCPL]

Yeah, Corky is a "god" for ballroom... but Salsa really isn't a ballroom dance (that would be why salsa dancers can always spot a "ballroom salsa" dancer from a mile away)... besides, even if he is dancing Mambo, which is danced on the "2", he is dancing it on the "3"...

[Josh]

Yeah, Corky is a "god" for ballroom... but Salsa really isn't a ballroom dance (that would be why salsa dancers can always spot a "ballroom salsa" dancer from a mile away)... besides, even if he is dancing Mambo, which is danced on the "2", he is dancing it on the "3"...

Jenn, welcome to DF!

Not sure what you mean in the last sentence Jenn, maybe you're referring to how the audio and video is out of sync (see Tony's post, post #2)... ? I assure you, as a world champion, Corky Ballas knows the "2" from the "3".

What you say is true--salsa isn't a ballroom dance, and shouldn't be danced as such, and since Mr. Ballas isn't doing salsa in the video, it stands to reason that it will look quite different.

The tone of this thread up until your post has been very positive, especially SD's post where he says this:

Very good salsa dancers appreciate what very good ballroom dancers do, just as very good ballroom dancers appreciate what very good salsa dancers do. At the risk of sounding overly harsh, those who say otherwise (from either camp) tend to lack understanding, be insecure, or both.

When we understand other styles of dance, and what they require to execute properly, it makes us better dancers, or at the very least, it expands our exposure to what else is out there, instead of keeping us in "tunnel vision" mode where we only see OUR style as good or valid. You seem to show that you have a pretty limited exposure to ballroom dancing when you talk about how 'easy it is to spot a ballroom salsa dancer.' Perhaps you could tell us the "correct" way to dance salsa, or even better, post a video of your own to "show us how it's done"?! I would love to see it... :-)

[tangotime]

but Salsa really isn't a ballroom dance (that would be why salsa dancers can always spot a "ballroom salsa" dancer from a mile away)... besides, even if he is dancing Mambo, which is danced on the "2", he is dancing it on the "3"...


Just to inform you ALL Salsa IS Mambo-- but not ALL Mambo is Salsa.

As much as " 3 " is concerned-- many, many P.Ricans break on 3---ya know -- the" people" that are given credit for its development , musically speaking, among other things .
And by the way-- salsa dancers can spot etc ?--- I.m B/room trained for longer than you care to know-- but in the Latino clubs in which I danced for multi yrs-- everyone, just about, thought I was Cuban ( no -- I dont look cuban, its my dance style ) and many always spoke to me in spanish !

[JennCPL]

Jenn, welcome to DF!

Not sure what you mean in the last sentence Jenn, maybe you're referring to how the audio and video is out of sync (see Tony's post, post #2)... ? I assure you, as a world champion, Corky Ballas knows the "2" from the "3".

What you say is true--salsa isn't a ballroom dance, and shouldn't be danced as such, and since Mr. Ballas isn't doing salsa in the video, it stands to reason that it will look quite different.

The tone of this thread up until your post has been very positive, especially SD's post where he says this:



When we understand other styles of dance, and what they require to execute properly, it makes us better dancers, or at the very least, it expands our exposure to what else is out there, instead of keeping us in "tunnel vision" mode where we only see OUR style as good or valid. You seem to show that you have a pretty limited exposure to ballroom dancing when you talk about how 'easy it is to spot a ballroom salsa dancer.' Perhaps you could tell us the "correct" way to dance salsa, or even better, post a video of your own to "show us how it's done"?! I would love to see it... :-)

I apologize for the video counting, I found another video on google of the same video clip and the timing was perfect.

Actually, it's funny how you say that, because I love ballroom dancing, and I have been doing Ballroom dancing 5 times longer than I have been doing salsa dancing. I dance salsa On1, On2, Cuban style, street style, and I also know the syllabus of steps for salsa usually taught in the ballroom studios... If I go to a ballroom studio, I will happily dance Mambo.... but what I don't like is ballroom studios marketing what they teach as great for the clubs, because its not. It's a different atmosphere. Their technique and movement may look very nice in a large ballroom, but he/she will likely step on a lot of people in a salsa club, and probably make a lot of dancers upset. I think this is one of the main reasons that club salsa dancers tend to dislike ballroom salsa dancers... at least it's one complaint that I hear a lot of in my city...

[Josh]

but he/she will likely step on a lot of people in a salsa club, and probably make a lot of dancers upset. I think this is one of the main reasons that club salsa dancers tend to dislike ballroom salsa dancers... at least it's one complaint that I hear a lot of in my city...

I see what you mean, and yes, this can be a problem!

[tangotime]

this is one of the main reasons that club salsa dancers tend to dislike ballroom salsa dancers... at least it's one complaint that I hear a lot of in my city...


LA style dancers do exactly the same thing !!

[Josh]

LA style dancers do exactly the same thing !!

Come on TT, that's quite a generalization... true in a lot of cases, but I think how much space someone takes up has far more to do with the person than the style.

[tangotime]

Come on TT, that's quite a generalization... true in a lot of cases, but I think how much space someone takes up has far more to do with the person than the style.

Josh-- , its more the norm than not .-- can only go by my experience .

[Pacion]

Again, I'll reiterate though that it would be unfortunate for a salsa dancer to not incorporate some of the basic technique involved here, despite their opinion of the overall look, as it can drastically improve their dancing without in any way making it less "fluid"...

But the girl has amazing legs. Her leg and foot action is ten times more interesting than those endless are-you-bored-yet turns.

I loved the foot/leg action! Sadly, I see advanced/"professional" salsa teachers whose leg action or various stances look ugly, even when doing turns, at speed.

Even if the basic technique did not improve a salsa dancer's dancing, it would certainly improve how they look out there.

[bro003]

There is no such thing as a perfect basic in a social dance. Not to say there aren't better and worse versions.

If you're looking for a model of someone who has the intellectual and physical ability+training found in the ballroom world, has very good teaching ability, and retains a foot in the social world, I would refer you locally (NYC area) to Jose Decamps. Cheaper and more available, Edgar Osorio.

Yeah! Corcky is teaching perfectly by the book. Very good. When you see Jose or Edgar social dance it looks like they eat salseros for breakfast.

[Leonid Turetsky]

I think yes, maybe for the "nightclub" salsa folks, Corky is over dancing... and using more of the Ballroom technique that focuses on very precise movements... Where as the street/nightclub style is a bit more relaxed.

Plus, he is not talking about technique at all... he's just showing the basic Salsa/Mambo step and showing it correctly!

[IndySpinner]

Corky was a champion International Latin dancer. International Latin technique is not the technique I prefer in Mambo dancing. For example, Corky's leg action has such a knee straightening, especially on the front step. I prefer Mambo technique as taught by prominent American Rhythm champions such as Jose Decamps or Tony Dovolani. International Latin technique has purged much of the original afro-cuban movement and style. American Rhythm has retained much of it.

[barrefly]

I'm trying to find authoritative information on how to dance the salsa basic with perfect technique.

The perfect salsa basic/dancer is very subjective and is also to be held within context. I prefer (to watch) a certain type of salsa dancer at the clubs, but prefer a different type of salsa dancer in comps/exhibitions. When out club dancing, my daughter really enjoys the great club salseros (with no b/l training), but when it comes to comps and exhibition, she prefers partners that have at least some ballroom/latin training.
Happy New Year, everyone.