Ladies--how do you cope with this beginner group class problem?

[Statlady]

In every group class that I've been to recently, at least 3 out of 4 men I dance with get completely off the music. The most common problem is breaking on 1 instead of 2 in Cha Cha and Mambo. The worse problem is being nowhere near the beat at all. Now, as a follower, you of course have to follow them even when they're wrong. I figure it's good following practice, since you can't go by the music and have to feel your partner's beat.

But . . . . it nearly drives me insane! Is this a common problem for other people? How do you cope?

[waltzgirl]

I was "fortunate" to avoid this problem--because I wasn't that great at hearing the beat myself as a beginner. :D

But now that I can, I think patience is the only answer. And a little sympathy with beginning leaders. They have more to learn and to juggle than followers do at the beginning. It may not be so much that they can't hear the music, but that they are so occupied with learning their own steps and coordinating that with leading you, that they just don't have the mental space left to do it all to the music. As they get more experience, it will be less of a problem.

Considering it as good following experience is a good approach. As a more advanced dancer, you'll have the pleasure of dancing with leads who don't dance exactly "on the beat" either because they are interpreting the music in a sophisticated way. You'll need to be able to follow that, as well.

[BM]

For the gents who just have no concept of rhythm or steps whatsoever, I've gone with the "grin and bear it" approach. It's painful, but brief. In a group class, it's only once for maybe a few measures until you rotate, and at socials, it's (ideally) only three or four minutes out of at least a couple of hours. As for the gents that are doing the steps properly, save their timing, depending on the gent, I may or may not politely inform him of the concern, but sharing the "fault": "Whoops, I think we're off-time."

Not everyone hears music easily. Having been involved with music in some form or other for 15 years, I'm usually quick to pick up a song's beat patterns, but I know that such is not the case for everyone else on the dance floor. We all have different strengths and weakness (both in and out of dance); I should think that I'd never get frustrated with someone because he did not have the same strengths as I did - for all I know, I may be able to count music, but he may be able to wipe the floor with me when it comes to nuclear physics.

[latingal]

Well in a beginner class, if a lead is not on the music or is about to start on the wrong beat, I usually take a look at the lead's face. If it's saying, "I could use a bit of help here" or starting to get that look of desperation, I will usually back lead a bit until they catch on. If they look like they want to give it a go themselves...I just follow, whether off the music on the wrong beat or whatever.

[latingal]

p.s. funny story - I once assisted a beginning class to help out a teacher whose assistant was missing. Assistants will usually dance with the dancers if the coupling is uneven. I got a beginning lead that decided breaking on 3 would be a good thing for cha-cha. Since the lead was not asking for any help, I followed and broke on 3. The teacher is now looking at me like I'm crazy; and I'm looking at him like "dude - do ya' really think I want to be breaking on 3?".

[BM]

Well in a beginner class, if a lead is not on the music or is about to start on the wrong beat, I usually take a look at the lead's face. If it's saying, "I could use a bit of help here" or starting to get that look of desperation, I will usually back lead a bit until they catch on. If they look like they want to give it a go themselves...I just follow, whether off the music on the wrong beat or whatever.

Never thought of that, but I will certainly keep it in mind for future reference. :)

[Statlady]

waltzgirl - You're right. Beginning leaders do have way more to worry about. Makes me glad I'm a woman. :)

BM - I learned to play the piano when I was 3 years old . . . so I've been involved in music for 26 years. That's probably why it bothers me so much. I would never dream of telling my partner that they're doing something wrong--unless they ask me. Your idea to share the fault is a good one.

Well in a beginner class, if a lead is not on the music or is about to start on the wrong beat, I usually take a look at the lead's face. If it's saying, "I could use a bit of help here" or starting to get that look of desperation, I will usually back lead a bit until they catch on. If they look like they want to give it a go themselves...I just follow, whether off the music on the wrong beat or whatever.

Yeah, I found myself doing that in a group class just the other day. The guy kept kind of lurching his upper body forward, but then stopping as if he were unsure when to take the first step. So, the next time he lurched a little I strongly took a step back to let him know it was a good time to start. Your PS is pretty funny.


I suppose it wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen with the majority of the guys I dance with. Some of them are in a higher level program than I am, so they know a lot of patterns, but can't break on 2 to save their lives. Makes me wonder why I'm in a lower level than they are . . . but that's a different issue. :) I suppose there are more important things than being exactly on the beat (save for artistic interpretation) . . . . but in my opinion that's a very important part.

[BM]

Some of them are in a higher level program than I am, so they know a lot of patterns, but can't break on 2 to save their lives. Makes me wonder why I'm in a lower level than they are . . . but that's a different issue.

A former coach once told me about a pro event at a comp he was attending a few years ago where the music was a bit tricky, and half of them were off-time. No one's 100% immune ;)

[Sagitta]

I suppose it wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen with the majority of the guys I dance with. Some of them are in a higher level program than I am, so they know a lot of patterns, but can't break on 2 to save their lives. Makes me wonder why I'm in a lower level than they are . . . but that's a different issue. :) I suppose there are more important things than being exactly on the beat (save for artistic interpretation) . . . . but in my opinion that's a very important part.I would suggest try leading if you are wondering why those guys who can't break on 2 are at a more advanced level than you. :p

[fascination]

I would only echo all that LG said...and at this point in time, I just do my very best to make it a good exercise in following

[biggestbox]

I was "fortunate" to avoid this problem--because I wasn't that great at hearing the beat myself as a beginner. :D

But now that I can, I think patience is the only answer. And a little sympathy with beginning leaders. They have more to learn and to juggle than followers do at the beginning. It may not be so much that they can't hear the music, but that they are so occupied with learning their own steps and coordinating that with leading you, that they just don't have the mental space left to do it all to the music. As they get more experience, it will be less of a problem.

Considering it as good following experience is a good approach. As a more advanced dancer, you'll have the pleasure of dancing with leads who don't dance exactly "on the beat" either because they are interpreting the music in a sophisticated way. You'll need to be able to follow that, as well.

Good point. Often advanced dancers will syncopate different beats.

Also I think men and women learn dance completely differently. As a lead. I can really only focus on one thing at a time. Sometimes it is my lead, sometimes it is my focus on my partner, and other times it can be as mundane as the tension in my toes. Once I understand the concept and "lock it in" to my body, I can move on and work on something else. The good news is that once the technique is locked in. I rarely forget unless I'm working some more to improve it. I have a feeling that girls move with the music much much more.

In ballet class for example when we do exercises across the floor, ladies will do them even fudge it, even when they don't know the combination, guys will just sort of stall until they really know the combination.

[Me]

Do any of these leads dance Country/Western? Their cha breaks on the 1... Oh and about the Mambo - is the instructor playing actual Mambo music, or Salsa because it is slower? It can be hard to force that break on 2. :neutral:

[cornutt]

I got a beginning lead that decided breaking on 3 would be a good thing for cha-cha. Since the lead was not asking for any help, I followed and broke on 3.

:shock: How the heck did he make that work? Trying to picture that in my mind, and my imaginary legs are getting tied in knots... :confused:

Anyway: Follows, do be paitiet with your beginning leads. I was there, not so long ago, and I well remember the feeling of trying to walk through my steps myself to try to get them committed to muscle memory because I simply didn't have the brain bandwidth to do everything at once, while my partner waits patiently, or maybe not.

And I must say that there are a fair number of intermediate-level follows who are not on the beat nearly as well as they think they are. There are only a few things a follow can do to really hack me off, but one of them is a follow who consistently opposes my timing. I absolutely cannot stand that. But most of the follows who do it, I don't think do so consciously. They just never learned any better; timing wasn't emphasized back in those beginning group classes when everyone was just trying to learn to put one foot in front of the other.

[cornutt]

Do any of these leads dance Country/Western? Their cha breaks on the 1...

I've danced that C/W cha on 1 some... it's surprising how different it feels. You wouldn't think it would make that much difference, but it does.

[Josh]

is the instructor playing actual Mambo music, or Salsa because it is slower?

Huh?

[Statlady]

I would suggest try leading if you are wondering why those guys who can't break on 2 are at a more advanced level than you. :p


Point taken! :)

[danceronice]

A former coach once told me about a pro event at a comp he was attending a few years ago where the music was a bit tricky, and half of them were off-time. No one's 100% immune ;)

My favorite one of these was at a for-fun comp at our studio--they put on one waltz where the beat was just...not there. About halfway through my pro said "I give up. We can do whatever we want to this." We checked with another pro and her student afterwards and discovered we weren't the only ones who couldn't find the beat to save our lives.

I'm not the greatest at finding a beat, but if I can help a guy who's way off, especially at a party, I'll count. (Especially on mambo, and we usually both end up somewhere around 3 anyway.) I'm never sure what to do in a group, though--on the one hand, I'm supposed to be a follower. I'm supposed to wait for him to go, to go where he leads me, etc. But sometimes that means I'm standing there waiting for a signal that never comes. Which means instead of practicing, I'm either standing, or scrambling to play catch up, but I try to just follow and deal, instead of dancing my own steps and ignoring him.

At the party class last week, though, I did have one guy who just couldn't lead the figure, and was not only blocking me but wasn't even trying to stay on the music (this was probably not the best class for him to try his first night coming to a party here) so I just got on the beat and backlead--we ended up a measure behind everyone else after we got 'unstuck' and as we finished the pro looked at us and said "It's like an echo in here!" I just kind of shrugged--I think he understood what happened.

[Me]

Huh?

Whut? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-025.gif

[Statlady]

Anyway: Follows, do be paitiet with your beginning leads. I was there, not so long ago, and I well remember the feeling of trying to walk through my steps myself to try to get them committed to muscle memory because I simply didn't have the brain bandwidth to do everything at once, while my partner waits patiently, or maybe not.

Hopefully, the leaders I dance with, if they are aware that they're not doing it quite right, think that I'm being patient. I always try to be as nice as I can. They keep asking me to dance, so my frustration must not be coming through too much.

And I must say that there are a fair number of intermediate-level follows who are not on the beat nearly as well as they think they are. There are only a few things a follow can do to really hack me off, but one of them is a follow who consistently opposes my timing. I absolutely cannot stand that. But most of the follows who do it, I don't think do so consciously. They just never learned any better; timing wasn't emphasized back in those beginning group classes when everyone was just trying to learn to put one foot in front of the other.
I've noticed that the instructors will mention that you're supposed to break on two, but they don't generally dwell on it if someone isn't doing that. So, it must not be as important in the beginning as I'm making it out to be. I wonder if my more advanced partners who are off the beat, think *I'm* the one who is off if I don't follow them exactly. I mean, I try to, but sometimes it's really hard for me to stay off the beat--especially if we break hold or something. And, really, it's far better to be in sync with your partner than to be on the beat, no?

[Josh]

Whut? http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aetsch/cheeky-smiley-025.gif

Eh? :eyebrow: :)

[Josh]

I've noticed that the instructors will mention that you're supposed to break on two, but they don't generally dwell on it if someone isn't doing that. So, it must not be as important in the beginning as I'm making it out to be.

That will depend entirely on the person. I would never allow a student to dance it any other way, ever, ever, ever. To me, timing is as fundamental to the dance as footwork or foot placement or any other basic concept, and if it's not danced on time I don't care about anything else. Others, however, I'm sure, are more relaxed about it.

[WorksForShoes]

Sometimes, too, it is helpful for a lead to get to sort out the timing problems on his own rather than have the follower trying to fix things too. At a dance camp, one lead told me "you're a really good follower, because I"ve been off time for several measures and you followed til I got us back on beat." To me, that was one of the nicest compliments.

[biggestbox]

In salsa/mambo, you can break on 1 and 2 which can be confusing. I've even seen pro international style dancers in American mambo breaking on 1...haha.

Also, any experience being off phrase? Especially in Standard, you want the man moving forward on the strong phrase and the woman moving forward on the weak phrase? It is difficult to be conscious of this (for example in V.Waltz if you take an extra phrase in your contra check or something like that) and in my experience to lady has to be a pretty good follow (or the man has to be a SUPER leader) for this to happen correctly.

I've seen Victor Fung do a demo where he gets off and on phrase during the dance (purposefully), it was probably one of the most impressive display of musical skill that I've seen.

[tunape]

In every group class that I've been to recently, at least 3 out of 4 men I dance with get completely off the music. The most common problem is breaking on 1 instead of 2 in Cha Cha and Mambo. The worse problem is being nowhere near the beat at all. Now, as a follower, you of course have to follow them even when they're wrong. I figure it's good following practice, since you can't go by the music and have to feel your partner's beat.

But . . . . it nearly drives me insane! Is this a common problem for other people? How do you cope?

I think of it like the golden rule - because you may have better timing than your partner, imagine what it would be like if it were something else where you did it worst, you probably don't even know what it is!

When I help out with beginning class, I try to help the dancers in a constructive, non-condescending way. It's usually the same problems - timing, connection, posture, weight transfer, etc... I try to remember what it was like to tackle these problems, and offer suggestions on how to get over them. It takes patience, perseverance, and the assumption that they are not doing these bad things on purpose and they are honestly trying to get better. At the end people are usually more than happy that you helped them, or that they feel they accomplished something.

One thing which may help you dance with these people is to perhaps to ask them what they are working on. It might be that they are still struggling with the steps, or focusing on the connection, and that they happen to forgot about timing(which requires a separate, full focus thread in their mind). Since no one is perfect, and neither am I, it helps to remind them of these things, but still give them the respect that they are working on something else.

[latingal]

:shock: How the heck did he make that work? Trying to picture that in my mind, and my imaginary legs are getting tied in knots... :confused:

Believe me it was a chore to ignore the music and not revert. My real legs were getting tied up in knots!! *grin*

Everybody with me...3, 4, 1 and 2

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Believe me it was a chore to ignore the music and not revert. My real legs were getting tied up in knots!! *grin*

Everybody with me...3, 4, 1 and 2
Aw, quit yer whinin'! At least he was able to find a beat. ;)

[latingal]

Aw, quit yer whinin'! At least he was able to find a beat. ;)

*grin* Note to self, be greatful for small favors....

[Zhena]

I can usually hear the beat very well, to the extent that I will end up dancing to whatever music is playing, even if it's not the dance I'm working on. For example last night DH and I were working on a fairly relaxed WC Swing routine but the other couple was using fast cha cha music -- DH had to make me consciously let go of the music (I was backleading because we were working on memorizing the routine and he didn't quite have it yet).

But, but, but ... when I lead, I often lose the beat! It makes me crazy when I have to stop and listen again. I don't understand what is so different about leading, but I can assure you the problem is VERY real to me. (Hmmm... and why can I hear when I'm backleading, but not when I'm supposed to be leading?;))

On a different note, I used to be very uncomfortable following leaders who were off-beat. It's something I've had to consciously work on. But just a couple of weeks ago I realized I was following an off-beat leader, and not only was I NOT having to restrain myself from backleading to get on the beat, I was just following him and ENJOYING the dance!!! What a breakthrough for me!

Finally, what I've done once or twice with a very new leader who looks like he wants some help is to ask him if he would like me to count the beat. The usual response is a grateful "yes, please". I try to catch when he seems to get the feel of it and stop counting after a few measures. I start counting again only if he loses the beat and starts to look desperate.

[wooh]

I'd agree that before you judge the guys, try leading yourself. See how easy it is to keep the beat then!
Short of that, it's easy to follow a guy when everything is perfect. The true test of following, is doing it when everything is NOT perfect. So see it as practice. Tuning out the world, tuning in to your partner. I think the biggest breakthrough in my following was when I finally learned to do that.

[Statlady]

Don't get me wrong--I'm not trying to rip on the leaders. Reading all these replies made me think of an analogy. I've sung alto in choirs since I was about 11. I have a good ear and I could almost always tell if people on other parts weren't hitting the right notes. It used to drive me crazy when it seemed that the conductor didn't notice the mistakes and try to fix them. They would actually say "That was great!" when I knew there were a lot of errors.

Then . . . I got a job leading a choir myself. Wow, what a difference! I was so busy trying to follow the music, beat my arms, turn the pages, etc., that we'd get done with a section and I wouldn't have a clue if anyone made major mistakes! Sometimes I'd even find myself beating the downbeat on some count other than one!

So--that made me realize how much harder staying on the beat would be if I were trying to lead. Thanks for helping me realize this!

[danceronice]

I ran into one situation today that I hadn't really encountered. My leader got lost and just stopped. I can follow a bad lead, but I can't follow anything if he's just standing there! We were both laughing, because it was kind of funny. The pro looked at us and asked what happened, and I just kind of gestured to my leader, who said he got confused and it was him. The pro said that maybe it was me (and with him I'm not sure if he's kidding or not), but I'm not sure what else I could have done once he stopped. Next time I'll try keeping dancing....

[BM]

I ran into one situation today that I hadn't really encountered. My leader got lost and just stopped. I can follow a bad lead, but I can't follow anything if he's just standing there! We were both laughing, because it was kind of funny. The pro looked at us and asked what happened, and I just kind of gestured to my leader, who said he got confused and it was him. The pro said that maybe it was me (and with him I'm not sure if he's kidding or not), but I'm not sure what else I could have done once he stopped. Next time I'll try keeping dancing....

<hijack>That reminds me of one time (early in the partnership) when my partner and I were practising, and I think I totally missed a lead, or something that simple. I just stopped and watched as he proceeded to cha cha lock his way across the room. The pro you're talking about was teaching a lesson when that happened, just looked back and forth at us, and chuckled in his amusement.</hijack>

[Joe]

Eh? :eyebrow: :)
Canadian?

[danceronice]

<hijack>That reminds me of one time (early in the partnership) when my partner and I were practising, and I think I totally missed a lead, or something that simple. I just stopped and watched as he proceeded to cha cha lock his way across the room. The pro you're talking about was teaching a lesson when that happened, just looked back and forth at us, and chuckled in his amusement.</hijack>

Yeah, I think that pro finds truly spectactular displays of confusion kind of funny. He WAS trying not to laugh when he asked us what happened.

[ChenLing]

First off, when I first started dancing I couldn't hear the beat -- my partner would count for me, and get annoyed about 4 measures in when I still haven't started moving. :)

From teaching beginners, the main reason I found why guys *start* off-time is this: suppose we are doing cha cha and want to start on 2. We count (or our partners count) 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, .... to be on the step at 2, we have to start moving on 1! But as a beginner guy, I'm told to step on 2, so we start moving on 2....except we realize, from the time of mental initiation to movement that we're past the beat (and after a mental "crap"), we might shudder a bit, lose the music, and start counting 1, 2, 3, 4 again....noticing the rather impatient look on our partners faces on why we are still not moving after 5 measures of music. :(

So...try this exercise with the guy next time (since there is a delay of intent to action)...have him start moving a beat early (which is correct anyhow)...or, if he's really bad (like I was), have him start moving 2 beats early...i.e, on 4 start thinking about moving, on 1 start moving, hit the break on 2. I think it'll work wonders.

Staying on time of course is a whole other matter.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

In every group class that I've been to recently, at least 3 out of 4 men I dance with get completely off the music. The most common problem is breaking on 1 instead of 2 in Cha Cha and Mambo. The worse problem is being nowhere near the beat at all. Now, as a follower, you of course have to follow them even when they're wrong. I figure it's good following practice, since you can't go by the music and have to feel your partner's beat.

But . . . . it nearly drives me insane! Is this a common problem for other people? How do you cope?
Maybe you could squeeze/tap his arm in time with the music? You don't have to say that you're doing it for his benefit.

[quixotedlm]

OT :)

Maybe it's time to start a thread about 'Leaders, how do you cope with all the adept-looking women who can't keep the beat to save their lives,will throw themselves into self-lead dips and can easily look like they are divas on the dance floor' ;)

[Statlady]

Maybe you could squeeze/tap his arm in time with the music? You don't have to say that you're doing it for his benefit.


Hmmm, interesting idea. I'll think on that.

[wooh]

OT :)

Maybe it's time to start a thread about 'Leaders, how do you cope with all the adept-looking women who can't keep the beat to save their lives,will throw themselves into self-lead dips and can easily look like they are divas on the dance floor' ;)

:D They can just ask me to dance instead.:)

[Josh]

have him start moving a beat early (which is correct anyhow)...

Completely depends on the dance, and the context.

(By the way, welcome to DF!! :D)

[FatBaldGuy60]

I have a pretty good sense of rhythym and almost never have a problem with finding/staying on beat. DW does have a problem hearing the beat, and is usually a bit fast, so I usually have to whisper "slow" to her, and that works most of the time.

Sometimes I also count the beats for her until she gets into step. Strangely, even when the music starts she is sometimes not sure what dance we are doing, and I don't mean latin where it can be a bit trickier, but like a foxtrot or waltz. It is hard for me to fathom that, but there it is. Just because I can't understand it doesn't mean it isn't happening for her.

As for leading, yeah, there are a lot of things to think about, but following has got to be really hard, since the quality and style of leads probably varies hugely. Then again, at least my wife appreciates my lead [and says so] when she gets back from dancing with some other guys that lead a bit differently.

FBG

[biggestbox]

leading and follow is definitely a skill that is difficult to learn. if you are a good enough lead, you can usually dictate the timing (including syncopations if you wish) through your lead. I think that is why it is so difficult for the follow if her lead is off.

[Peaches]

It can also be difficult for a follow if the lead's timing is off b/c you can end up getting asked to step again before you've completed the first step.

I remember one memorable cha with a guy whose timing was all over the place (meaning I couldn't just adapt to it and go with his timing, b/c it was never the same from one moment to the next). It's hard when he's already leading the step out of the rock, when you're still going into the rock. (After a bit I did figure out that he was just "tapping" instead of actually stepping...that simplified life quite a bit.)

[cornutt]

I ran into one situation today that I hadn't really encountered. My leader got lost and just stopped.

I'll have to admit that if it's a social dance or a practice, I'm a lot less likely to try to pick my way through a train wreck. If it's a comp, yeah, you smile and act like you meant to do that. But on the social floor, sometimes it's simpler, and less cruel to your partner, to just reset.

[danceronice]

I'll have to admit that if it's a social dance or a practice, I'm a lot less likely to try to pick my way through a train wreck. If it's a comp, yeah, you smile and act like you meant to do that. But on the social floor, sometimes it's simpler, and less cruel to your partner, to just reset.

Oh, this was a group lesson, with an instructor whom I'd really like to impress to boot. (Don't ask. Long story. Suffice to say his good opinion would mean a lot to me.) Fortunately it's not the worst thing that's ever happened (that would be the time I got myself tangled in my own legs and my partner had to grab me to keep me from hitting the floor.)

[tanya_the_dancer]

Oh, this was a group lesson, with an instructor whom I'd really like to impress to boot. (Don't ask. Long story. Suffice to say his good opinion would mean a lot to me.) Fortunately it's not the worst thing that's ever happened (that would be the time I got myself tangled in my own legs and my partner had to grab me to keep me from hitting the floor.)

Funny how it is - when you try to impress someone, you usually make more mistakes than when you don't.

[danceronice]

Funny how it is - when you try to impress someone, you usually make more mistakes than when you don't.

I figure at this point, just demonstrating I am not kidding around and working at it is best. Because yeah, if I try in any way to get fancy, I'm dead meat. I start thinking and that is the kiss of death. Must. Stop. Thinking!

[nucat78]

[...] if I try in any way to get fancy, I'm dead meat. I start thinking and that is the kiss of death. Must. Stop. Thinking!

No kidding, me too. But "when in doubt, basic out!"

[RickRS]

But now that I can, I think patience is the only answer. And a little sympathy with beginning leaders. They have more to learn and to juggle than followers do at the beginning. It may not be so much that they can't hear the music, but that they are so occupied with learning their own steps and coordinating that with leading you, that they just don't have the mental space left to do it all to the music. As they get more experience, it will be less of a problem.


:notworth:

Thank you, thank you, thank you, waltzgirl. As a really raw beginner, I appreciate those words.

As a guitar player, I can jump in anywhere and be on the beat. As a dancer, same song, :confused:

Too many new things going on, it ain't natural for me, yet. Hopefully, with time...