The Politics of dancing

[pygmalion]

I guess this one is mostly for competitive dancers. A couple of my coaches have mentioned having to take lessons or coaching with certain prominent coaches or judges, "for political reasons", while they were active in the competitive circuit. And I've begun to think about this as well. What's the political etiquette around this issue?What about conflict of interests? For example, what are the ethics behind taking coaching from someone who judges you in competition? Or, to use a personal example, what are the ethics behind soliciting coaching from the ISTD examiner who lives within a one hour drive from my house? Good move? Bad move? Or is it just the way things are -- the politics are there, so learn to work them to one's own advantage? Thoughts, anyone?

[Taita]

Hey Jenn,

I hope you enjoyed your weekend. I'm sure the topic of politics in ballroom has been beaten to death in this forum. This is probably the one thing I dislike about ballroom, the appearance of impropriety. Because winning a ballroom dance competition is so subjective, it's impossible to rule out politics.

From my experience in the ballroom world as an amateur competitor, It seems to me that politics plays a role in competition placements and it never hurts to have more visibility. As an example, there are some coaches in my area, while they are good coaches, they have a reputation for marking their students. In other words, they seem to always be in a position to judge their students and they seem to always place their students higher than everyone else. While nobody can really prove anything shady is taking place but the appearance of impropriety is bad enough. However, in all fairness, politics will play a role in any situation in life where more than one person is involved. I will also say the majority of the pros that I have met are very nice and very professional.

What did your coach mean by "political reasons?"

[pygmalion]

He meant cultivating visibility with the "right people" in power in the ballroom world.

And I don't think it's been beaten to death, here, at least. The ballroom forum is just heating up, here. But oh my goodness you're right. You should go to any major ballroom board (competitors of ours, so I won't name LOL) and you can tune into some hot and heavy political discussions.

I'd like to believe most judges try to be impartial, even when it's their students they're judging, although you never know. There probably are some bad eggs out there. And some who bend over backward NOT to give the appearance of impropriety. Like one of my coaches whose coach marked him and his partner dead last in all their heats -- much, much lower than any of the other judges. It looks like politics can work for or against you.

[Taita]

Well, added visibility will only help you (unless you commit a crime or something :P ). Taking lessons with an ISTD examiner will indeed help you. If this is going to be your examiner, obviously, this will help you for your examination. Maybe this person is a judge and may remember you at the next competition. Maybe this person will know of more potential partners. In the very least, it may help put you into a clique shared by your coach. At any rate, it will probably help you and you will probably learn something.

It has been my experience that the world of ballroom dancing is filled with unavoidable politics. This can be made worse by the actions of some unscrupulous individuals. I have also seen things done at higher levels for purely political reasons that I would not approve of. While I cannot control what others do , I tend to focus on the enjoyment of dancing with my partner and working to become a better dancer. Leave the politics to the politicians and just be true to yourself. Let the chips fall where they may.

[BayAreaBallroomLady]

b As an "outsider" I can definitely see the "politics" even on the PBS specials of the Championships. "Name dropping" is actually acceptable behavior in ballroom classes and studio dances. I also see a lot of "snooty" folks. (I find it intriguing that it's often people who hate people ewho want to be involved with something that requires people to ....but I'm off on a tangient here)

It seems to me there is a lot of "East Coast Mentality" which flows through the ballroom dance contacts I've had in general. I just don't get it--being a native Californian.

It reminds a LOT of the Ice Skating world 10 years ago....but they have since had more than one comeuppance of their own. Let's hope that the ballroom folks don't dismiss the lessons learned by the Ice Skating world in the last 10 years.

It always seems that ballroom dance is on the brink of becoming bigger than it's ever been. I just think that there is a majority in the industry, who DON'T want that to happen, and they fight it. I don't think it's an accident that there is such small exposure to the public.
Isn't the term..elitism?

Just some stuff to chew on while I sit in bed and ponder the universe and all it's meanings..... :wink:

[pygmalion]

Hmm. Lots of interesting stuff in your post. Check out the ballroom ballroom dance and elitism (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=2111) thread. Some thought provoking stuff.

Also, what happened in the ice skating world? Just curious. Call me myopic, but I had no idea there was a shake-up.

[tangotime]

okay guys listen up-- i am an adjudicator-- and have been before most if not all of you were born-- i can tell you-- and put you at ease -- that most if not all judges -- judge on merit-- period.-- that is not to say that some modicum of bias couldnt exist in close call situations-- but even then-- what you as amat . do not realise -- is this--- when judges marks are compared -- i would be questioned by the chairman if my marks were consistently out of line -- that is why we have a chairman-- among other reasons ---. exposure to different coaches should be done -- but not for the wrong reasons . Believe me-- if you are good enough for first place-- thats what you will get-- and by the way-- we are talking about independant , recognised events .

[Anna]

But to judge a couple on merit you still have notice a couple...and you're probably much more likely to notice a couple you coach?

[saludas]

okay guys listen up-- i am an adjudicator-- and have been before most if not all of you were born-- i can tell you-- and put you at ease -- that most if not all judges -- judge on merit-- period.-- that is not to say that some modicum of bias couldnt exist in close call situations-- but even then-- what you as amat . do not realise -- is this--- when judges marks are compared -- i would be questioned by the chairman if my marks were consistently out of line -- that is why we have a chairman-- among other reasons ---. exposure to different coaches should be done -- but not for the wrong reasons . Believe me-- if you are good enough for first place-- thats what you will get-- and by the way-- we are talking about independant , recognised events .

I'm shocked that you say that the Chairman of Judges would 'question' your marks if they are 'out of line'... out of line with what? The other judges? That sounds VERY political to me. Not to mention going against the multiple judge process... why have multiple judges if not to see differing views?

Are you currently judging - how recently, and at what 'independent, recognized events'? What levels are your certified to judge - syllabus or higher?

[saludas]

But to judge a couple on merit you still have notice a couple...and you're probably much more likely to notice a couple you coach?

Agreed. I think the 'level playing field' is a myth - the brighter the dress, the more noticed a couple gets, for instance.

I thnink that politically, a sincere attitude and consistency translates into good politics in the dance world. In some areas, finanacials make for a more 'visible' couple simply because a couple that takes from many coaches is therefore more known and familiar, and that takes money.

[tangotime]

Why would you be shocked if I had a couple in an event giving them seconds and firsts and eight other judges ALL marked them 5th and 6 th in all dances !! wake up -- thats bias with a capital B-- and -- i am a championship adjudicator --- do you really believe that judges collude ?-- give us a little more credit -- please ! -- we know-- in many small independant comps- everyone is a winner --part of your system-- My reference is to champiomship level-- I will give you a true classic example of what happened to me many yrs ago whilst judging a championship event-- my then wife was competing in open div pro.-- I was on the panel for the final-- a complaint was lodged to the effect that i might have a bias-- it came from the pro whom I had sent them to for coaching ( you know dont teach your wife how to drive ) I replied -- that would not be a problem-- when the marks and placings became available-- I had marked them5th and 6th in 3 dances and 4th in one-- he had marked them-- 2- 1sts and 2--2nds !!-- bias at work ?? -- you be the judge-- you will always have-- to some extent -- differences of opinion among any panel- but more over the placings than the winner -- and ther are those who judge on past performance---- got into being questioned yrs ago why i had placed this particular well known competitor in virtually 2 nd place-- My answer ?-- i did not think he danced his best on the day -- I was in a minority of 2-- but -- I think you get my point-- there has to be some oversight or surely chaos could reign ?

[alemana]

the spouse of a competitor should never even be on the panel. they should not be near the panel. they should not be making dinner for the panel or wiping the butt of anyone on the panel.

c'mon. that's just... totally inappropriate.

[redhead]

the spouse of a competitor should never even be on the panel. they should not be near the panel. they should not be making dinner for the panel or wiping the butt of anyone on the panel.

c'mon. that's just... totally inappropriate.
yes and yes and yes. There is a couple hare where wife is a judge/ pro competitor and husband is a student/ am competitor. They always make sure to get her off the panel when he's dancing. That's just common sense.

[saludas]

Why would you be shocked if I had a couple in an event giving them seconds and firsts and eight other judges ALL marked them 5th and 6 th in all dances !! wake up -- thats bias with a capital B-- and -- i am a championship adjudicator --- do you really believe that judges collude ?-- give us a little more credit -- please ! -- we know-- in many small independant comps- everyone is a winner --part of your system-- My reference is to champiomship level-- I will give you a true classic example of what happened to me many yrs ago whilst judging a championship event-- my then wife was competing in open div pro.-- I was on the panel for the final-- a complaint was lodged to the effect that i might have a bias-- it came from the pro whom I had sent them to for coaching ( you know dont teach your wife how to drive ) I replied -- that would not be a problem-- when the marks and placings became available-- I had marked them5th and 6th in 3 dances and 4th in one-- he had marked them-- 2- 1sts and 2--2nds !!-- bias at work ?? -- you be the judge-- you will always have-- to some extent -- differences of opinion among any panel- but more over the placings than the winner -- and ther are those who judge on past performance---- got into being questioned yrs ago why i had placed this particular well known competitor in virtually 2 nd place-- My answer ?-- i did not think he danced his best on the day -- I was in a minority of 2-- but -- I think you get my point-- there has to be some oversight or surely chaos could reign ?

'Not dancing his best on that day' is not a valid judging criteria - this is the very reason people are angry at people who play politics - in this case a judge who is marking a dancer based not upon what is happening on the floor that day but based upon the judge's 'history'; with the dancer.

Also, what Championship competition permits or permitted the husband of a competitor to judge them?

Finally, disparity in marks shows good judging - the judge sees what they see at that moment - if competitor A dances better at that moment than B, then A gets the higher mark... not a mark based on who they are sleeping with, or how the judge thinks they dance overall (on 'another day').

[Laura]

I'm shocked that you say that the Chairman of Judges would 'question' your marks if they are 'out of line'... out of line with what? The other judges? That sounds VERY political to me. Not to mention going against the multiple judge process... why have multiple judges if not to see differing views?
Just as a side note, the equivalent of the Chairman of Judges in ice skating is the Referee. And the Referee does exactly what tangotime described -- including filing written reports about poor judging that end up in some file somewhere.

[Another Elizabeth]

For what it's worth, I have scrutineered many competitions, large and small, and I have never seen a Chairman of Judges even check to see if a judge's marks are "out of line," let alone chastise him for it.

[PasoDancer]

"Politics" had been dropped on us from the first "Hi, I'm interested in ballroom lessons, can you help me?" call, when we were lowly, slavering newbies, to even the present. I think it just becomes habit with some people. They don't even realize they've just bashed somebody to someone who doesn't even care that the speaker scored four touchdowns in one game at Polk High.

[saludas]

Just as a side note, the equivalent of the Chairman of Judges in ice skating is the Referee. And the Referee does exactly what tangotime described -- including filing written reports about poor judging that end up in some file somewhere.

How can looking at score sheets tell if a judge is doing his job poorly?

[tangotime]

I think many of you missed the point-- i stated quite clearly that he-- the chairman has that right-- i did not say that he had exercised it-- my reference came from one of the other judges remarks to me -- and again -- how would anyone know when it would have been done ---its on a private basis --also-- the question why judges are or are not allowed to judge certain individuals brings up the question of integrity , and I take great offfence to that !!--- |I think i demonstrated by my markings in that event where my allegiances lay-- to my Profession-- and -- what i did not mention -- i asked to be removed and was asked the question could i be impartial -- Why oh why are you all so jaded in your outlook ? thru previous bad experiences ? -- NOT my fault !!--- as to marking the way i did --that IS the way i saw his position on the day-- to the contrary--many judge on current rankings-- or seem to --- even world beaters have bad days !!-- i will give you a classic example-- my last pro comp. was in the states in 1961-- had the good fortune ? to come up against someone who had been British junior champion -- need less to say-- I came second-- heres the kicker-- in the audience was a very famous english coach-- who approached me and said -- you got robbed --- not solicited-- didnt ever take lessons with him- just his honest opinion --now did -- rankings come into play ?-- who knows .and i really did not expect to win.-- was very happy to be 2nd-- I also do realise the risks involved when employing someone with an axe to grind-- but think about this--- how many competitors at championship level have been taking lessons on a regular basis with members of the panel ?-- the answer is-- numerous -- if you know of a better system -- please elucidate .

[Another Elizabeth]

how would anyone know when it would have been done ---its on a private basis
As a scrutineer, I would definitely know if the marks were changed.

[Chris Stratton]

My guess is that some of the strong reactions are do to comparison with the rules that are in force today (and quite similar policies elsewhere in society today). These might not have been in effect at the time of the event - but they are in effect today, so discussion today is going to be viewed in light of them.

For example, for the NDCA:

IV.A.1 A judge must excuse himself from an adjudicating panel on any occasion when he has a member of his immediate family, or any member of the same household dancing in a particular heat of a competition. "Immediate Family" is defined as first cousin or above.

I'd also point out that such a rule may not only exist to preserve fairness for the other competitors - it is also perhaps there to preserve fairness for the family member...

[bailarín]

About becoming jaded - I think that's one reason many coaches do not let/encourage their students to look at the marks. Because awareness can creep into the amazing human mind and perhaps in that one brief instant on the floor, the competitor will be looking right into the eyes of the judge who marked them down last time, and most competitors will fail that test and reveal the bias they built into themselves over the intervening months.

[redhead]

About becoming jaded - I think that's one reason many coaches do not let/encourage their students to look at the marks. Because awareness can creep into the amazing human mind and perhaps in that one brief instant on the floor, the competitor will be looking right into the eyes of the judge who marked them down last time, and most competitors will fail that test and reveal the bias they built into themselves over the intervening months.
gosh, my partner is totally on that path

[fire_dancer]

About becoming jaded - I think that's one reason many coaches do not let/encourage their students to look at the marks. Because awareness can creep into the amazing human mind and perhaps in that one brief instant on the floor, the competitor will be looking right into the eyes of the judge who marked them down last time, and most competitors will fail that test and reveal the bias they built into themselves over the intervening months.

That's a good point... but there's also some merit to knowing who marked you lower. At my last comp (dancing pro/am) we learned that a certain judge hadn't placed us high, which really shattered my confidence in my dancing ability. My pro teacher insisted I set up a coaching lesson with him and the judge (he's from a nearby town) to get face time and to learn what I was doing wrong so I don't get marked down next time.

You know what? The entire coaching lesson the judge barely worked with me.... he spent most of the time correcting what my pro teacher was doing. He kept saying "If you don't loosen/tighten your frame/footwork/turns, your partner (me) can't do what SHE'S supposed to do. It was a real eye-opener, and I later moved on to better teachers. (This particular teacher had blamed ME for our low standings, saying that I was doing everything wrong).

So sometimes looking at the scores can help if you set up time with the judges to hear their reasoning behind the placements, and learn some things out of it. :)

[bailarín]

Fire Dancer, You're right. A person should garner all the knowledge they can. Some knowledge should come with instructions, some with a warning label!

[madmaximus]

Arguably, QUALITATIVE competitions will always have (or perceived to have) politics.
This will be true whenever any judge has to make an opinion based on distinctions of the "quality" of dancing among the participants of a competition.

While taking lessons from adjudicators could serve dancers positively, note that it also can go against.
Sure, by taking a class with the adjudicator you can acquaint a judge of your strengths and assets.
Things that would otherwise be hidden from view in the 10-second glance available to that judge at comp.
Or hidden by the deleterious effects of performance anxiety and nerves.

But by showing your assets to the adjudicator you show your deficiencies too.
Who's to say that the adjudicator won't be looking for those liabilities ?
In a past comp, the only judge who marked me for 2nd place knew me from many years of lessons.
Later saying that I did not fix what should have been fixed.

Certainly, prior knowledge of a couple's ability will help form that opinion.
In the end, judges are human too.
They hold their opinions highly, and are just as susceptible to branding, marketing and hearsay as everyone else.
Their opinions can be shaped by group views, perceptions, and opinions, just as any person.
And we can only trust in their sense of ethics as we do of others.

Perception goes many ways.



m

[fire_dancer]

That's a good point, madmaximus, but what I was trying to get to was that sometimes looking at the scores and taking the time to get feedback from the judges can be a good thing. Often, adjucators are only available for feedback during private lessons, so that's when the most communication happens.

You raise a good point.... I definitely wouldn't want one of my teachers as a judge. They know all my weaknesses!

[bailarín]

When we are coached by judges, we're exposing our weaknesses to the same people who would otherwise only see a few seconds of our polished routines in our best presentation. We choose to trust the professionalism in their approach as in ours. What a kill-joy - would I be lousy on tv or in the press, or what?!!

[madmaximus]

... that sometimes looking at the scores and taking the time to get feedback from the judges can be a good thing. Often, adjucators are only available for feedback during private lessons, so that's when the most communication happens...


I have mixed thoughts about this.

On one hand I agree with you that it can be a good thing.
It is nice to see my standing and how I stacked against the dancers considered better than me.
It would be nice to hear the opinions of the judges at comp day or shortly thereafter.

On the other hand, the scores and opinions by the judges are set against the performance of the other dancers.
My placement in a competition is exactly that: an opinion of how I performed against others--not a comparison to a standard of quality.
It is hardly a comparison of my performance from (say) 3 months ago, and therefore a poor metric of the quality, progression, and development of my dancing.



m

[Laura]

How can looking at score sheets tell if a judge is doing his job poorly?
After each competition there is a group meeting where the Referee goes over all the marks with all the judges, and if anyone is far out of line they get a chance to explain what they did and why. If the judge can explain it (like "I was sitting on the far right end of the panel so I had the best view of that jump, and Tara did go over from the back outside edge to the back inside right before takeoff so that lutz was really a flip") then good, and no report. If not, then not good.

[Nik]

OH MY GOD!!!!

If I didn't have to run out to work in 3 minutes I would write a page right now.

First if you can, look at the amateur latin marks from the Tampa Comp and you will see some politics.

This is probably one of the biggest reasons a couple does good or doesn't even make the final. Every judge has his or her opinion pretty much set on the placements before they even start judging. I'm not going to mention names but there are a couple judges/coaches or pretty high level that ALWAYS mark me last JUST because I have never had lessons with them. Sure they might not like my dancing, but when I place 2nd or even win and then see that they gave me 5th and 6th all accross then either all the other judges are bought out or you are just retarted. I have seen my marks from certain people sky rocket just because I took some lessons with them; and even though there are practical reasons like they might of not known my dancing and didn't have enough time at comp to really see the positives, the obvious still stands, most of them are a bunch of political &^#*%#(^#(^)#)^#(^%#($#(^%(#(&^%$#(&^$.

:) anyway, gotta run, but politics does play the BIGGEST part in dancesport nowadays which is very sad.

[Nik]

and to add one more thing, half these judges are not even close to being qualified to judge the events they do. Next time you're at a comp look at the judges for the amateur and pro events and think to yourself, what did they dance and how good they actually were.

[Katarzyna]

OH MY GOD!!!!
I'm not going to mention names but there are a couple judges/coaches or pretty high level that ALWAYS mark me last JUST because I have never had lessons with them. Sure they might not like my dancing, but when I place 2nd or even win and then see that they gave me 5th and 6th all accross then either all the other judges are bought out or you are just retarted. I know how you feel.. There are some people who just consistently do that to us, and I bet a lot of other couples out there.. on the other hand, every judge has one or 2 things that they care about the most and a lot of times they will not mark you well no matter how good other things are.. So frustrating.. A lot of times I see judging pannel and I konw judge x will mark us 1st and judge y will mark us last... it's nice to have more x judges... funny thought its so easy to wonder why judge y doesn't like your dancing, but you never question judge x... :rolleyes:

It's just frustrating when you get really bad marks from someone just because you didn't want to take lessons with them...

[Katarzyna]

and to add one more thing, half these judges are not even close to being qualified to judge the events they do. Next time you're at a comp look at the judges for the amateur and pro events and think to yourself, what did they dance and how good they actually were.That's a good one.. its so funny when an event is judged by someone who would not be able to compete against the people he/she's judging...

[bailarín]

So now that I've tried to live up to my ideals, Nik's and Katarzyna's comments made me pause and go hmmmmm. So my suddenly-worried self went right to the USA Dance Nationals website to see who's judging:
The 2006 USA Dance National DanceSport Championships:
Officials and Judges


Officials

Richard Booth -- Chairman
Ken Richards -- MC
Karen Andersen -- MC
Ava Kaye -- Scrutineer
Mark Tabor -- Technical Specialist for Scrutineering
Didio Barrera -- Music Director

Judges

Alain Doucet
Anik Jolicouer
Erich Staeildi
Peter Pover
Stephen Cullip
Maja Serve
Charlotte Jorgensen
Kristina Ilo
Keith Todd
Tom Hicks
Sam Sodano
Stephan Krauel
Nadia Eftedal
John Nyemchek
Dan Calloway
Dan Rutherford
Olga Foraponova

Amateur Judges

Wayne Crowder
Marie Crowder
Gary Stroick (Theater Arts)
Carol Stroick (Theater Arts)

[tangotime]

To the scrutineer-- I hope you evaluate better than you read -- I did not say that chair changed any marks-- I clearly stated that he had the right to question-- nothing more nothing less -- as one of your mod. recently pointed out-- a meeting takes place for discussion after events-- the type of sanctioning i was refering to --if it took place-- would be in private .And as many of the competitors posts are saying-- there is a huge discrepancy in the marking with some of the judges-- i know -- thats what they are supposed to do-- thats NOT MY POINT---- ONE MORE TIME-- nine judge panel --8 mark winner majority 1 and 2 all dances-- judge # nine -- places no higher than 5 or 6 -- Incompetency or bias ? -- would you not discuss his marking ?-- not talking lower events- though think its still wrong -- more higher open div.

[tangotime]

do you really believe that the only ones allowed to judge have to have been of world class or major championship level dancers ? -- heres an analogy for you-- a former coach of the dallas cowboys took his team s to superbowl championship level-- did you know-- he never played football at pro level ?
Am not advocating that one should be absent of dance background - but
there are many well known coaches who have never reached the pinnacles of success-- being a championship dancer proves one thing only -- you can dance better than all or most all -- to take it to its other extreme-
one of the greatest dance minds and a former 3 time world champion-- never got to judge Blackpool !!!!!!!!-- Funny story for you-- was running a comp many yrs ago and auditions were also being held for entry to b.y.u as they competed-- after one event -- i collected the marks and noticed the judges had all marked the couple ( pro ./ am ) as not meeting the grade-- i was astounded-- the girl was incredible-- went back and asked why she had failed -- they said " She ? "-- oh we thought she was the teacher !!! - --

[SDsalsaguy]

Have to say that I think the "what level did they compete at?" test isn't really valid either. Case in point being someone like Ruud. What did he accomplish as a competitor? Not much. But what about as a coach? I can't believe that he has played a key role in the development of that many world-class competitors but, simply because of his own dancing, is not qualified to judge.

And, to keep using Ruud as an example, it's easy enough for someone to then turn around and say "well, OK, for Latin," and forget that Massimo and Allesia considered him their main coach (or at least their retirement statement read by Peter Maxwell at Blackpool a few years ago stated so). Last I checked, even if M&A style isn't to anyone's particular tastes, there was still enough in it to sway several years of Blackpool panels that they were among the handful of the very best active competitors on the planet.


(Note: I'm not saying that it's not worth considering who's really qualified to judge and who's not, I just think that their own comp success is far over-rated as a legitimate measure.)

[tangotime]

Thanks---- have been beating that drum for yrs.--- One of the finest coaches who ever lived-- was never rated in the higher echelons of dance-- and yet-- is regarded by many as the best technician-- his name -- Benny Tolmeyer --the flying dutchman -- and of course - the inimitable Charles Thibeault--- the inventor of the Rev. wave .

[Joe]

At first glance I'd say the Nationals judging panel looks pretty darn qualified to me...

[fluffy]

One of my teachers was judging the international junior event, he marked the winners last in a few dances, why? Because they were dancing out of syllabus. Either noone else noticed, cared, or knew. So his marks we well out of line compared to others, but for good reason.

It seems picking the judges can also be political, being named on a Blackpool panel for example, will mean you get inundated with demand for lessons, by couples hoping to get marked because either (a) they will be recognised and hence considered by that teacher (b) will learn to dance in the coaches preferred style, or at least eliminate what offends or worst (c) think that by throwing lots of money that way, the coach will feel obliged to mark them.

Of course the good coaches who also judge, are always busy. so (c) doesn't wash, but certainly helps with (a) & (b)

[tangotime]

Amen to that !

[redhead]

To the scrutineer-- I hope you evaluate better than you read
In all fairness, your posts are rather difficult to read.
Seriously, punctuation exists for a reason.

[tangotime]

Point taken. and me , a major in english ; shame on me, seriously; tend to get sloppy, particularly when this is a new medium to me ( still looking for the on switch !! ) Will try to do better. Hard to give up those stone tablets and chisel ,

[Another Elizabeth]

To the scrutineer-- I hope you evaluate better than you read
Sorry, I do find your posts very difficult to read. As I mentioned before, you could achieve much greater legibility by using the Enter key to break them into paragraphs, rather than using dashes everywhere.

[skwiggy]

One of my teachers was judging the international junior event, he marked the winners last in a few dances, why? Because they were dancing out of syllabus. Either noone else noticed, cared, or knew. So his marks we well out of line compared to others, but for good reason.

I thought syllabus invigilation was not the responsibility of the judge? I thought that was why many competitions have someone designated as an official invigilator?

[skwiggy]

Although I agree there are often politics at play, and I agree that sometimes judges probably do play favorites based on who takes lessons from them and who doesn't, there is another possible explanation. Sometimes, isn't it possible, that the dancers that have taken lessons with a given judge then are more likely to have worked on the qualities that that particular judge values most? Wouldn't that influence the marks as well? So while the better marks are then still a result of having taken the lesson, perhaps not always in the devious way that is automatically assumed.

[bailarín]

Often the straight A student does not make the best teacher (but may be the best researcher), the most talented athlete does not always make the best coach (besides the football analogy, in basketball Larry Bird is an exception among the greats). I think part of the strength of a judging panel comes from diversity across different countries, different styles, different eras they achieved greatness, and different aspects of dance expertise(champs, coaches, syllabi experts maybe?).

[JANATHOME]

We have coached with a well known judge for 2 years prior to him moving out of state. Regardless of the state we competed in, more often than not we found ourselves on the competition floor being judged by him. I can say with absolute certainty that we never received any edge because we were his students. He probably judges use harder than judges we dont have a relationship with. When we danced well we were placed accordingly and when not so well he awared us last place. We got a lot of last places!

As a matter of fact I would scan the judging panel right away because it was more difficult for us when he was judging. We knew what he expected of us and it put tension and stress on our dance.... It was difficutl!!

But to the previous post point, true!!.. In addition to all of the givens, posture, timing, he loaded our rotuines with as many steps in the category that he could. I am not sure if he wanted to expose us to all of the steps in the category or had a preference to see this on the dance floor. After each comp he would come back with everything he did not like and began to work on it. By far this was the largest advantage to working with a judge, not competition marks.

[bailarín]

I can say with absolute certainty that we never received any edge because we were his students. He probably judges use harder than judges we dont have a relationship with.

We share the same experience. The judges who coach us tend to be harder on us. Are they more aware of our weaknesses? Are they concerned with not being criticized for giving us high(er) marks? My job is to keep working to exceed their expectations - to move their pen.

[skwiggy]

I had one judge tell me that although he always tries to mark as fairly as possible, if it's a close call between two couples and one of those couples happens to be his students, he will always mark his students lower. He does this intentionally to avoid any accidental bias (or perhaps the appearance thereof).

[fascination]

yea and I'll tell you what...that happened to me at ohio...if our freaking coach hadn't marked us fourth we would have placed...I am still pouting...lol

[JANATHOME]

Sometimes we walk off the floor and when the placements are in we say "yea, we deserved that". In this situation it is really easy to handle.. We were outdanced, not prepared... whatever... It does not upset me (well ok it stings for a few minutes) but then it drives me harder to place better the next time...

And then there are times, like our last comp in Maryland... We walked off the floor from international standard and I felt we just cannot dance or perform any better than this... It was the very best we have... We placed 4th out of 4... Now that hurts!!! It is a what now feeling, where do we go from here...

Still, we go have a drink, or two!!, even if we are dancing at 8:00 AM!!, after a last place you can find us with a glass of wine in hand, shake it off and go on... I mean what is the alternative??? Stop dancing, stop competing.. I just cant imangine that... After 10 years of dance and competing it is just so much who we are and last place is still better than stopping. Takes a day or two and then I am back on line looking at the next comp... ask husband "want to do this comp??", he says sure, and I fill out the forms, write a check.. we are good to go again!! 1st place feels so great, but for us just it is not the end all.

AUGGG!

[Anna]

We walked off the floor from international standard and I felt we just cannot dance or perform any better than this... It was the very best we have... We placed 4th out of 4... Now that hurts!!!

I've noticed the dances I've felt best after walking off the floor from are always the ones I place lowest in...and the ones I've felt worst about are the ones I place best in.

[tangotime]

A little info. on the existing method of scoring. Many yrs ago ( the fifties ) 2 very well known dancers tied for 1st. place in a major. champ. The result stood. This happened again with 2 high profile prf. competitors, one being Len Scrivener. He went on to say in his book, that he would have been quite happy to " share " , and quite vehemently argued that that system should continue . W e have become obsessed ( particularly in amer. sports ) to designate a winner, not so in hockey ,english soccer, horse racing etc. Does that make it any less a valid result ? .Why should one person have to be relegated to a lesser position thru the cause of subjective judging ? .Am looking for input.Not suggesting to change the current system. So-- which do you think would be more equitable ?

[redhead]

And then there are times, like our last comp in Maryland... We walked off the floor from international standard and I felt we just cannot dance or perform any better than this... It was the very best we have... We placed 4th out of 4... Now that hurts!!! It is a what now feeling, where do we go from here...

Yeah, I know how that feels. But they only compare you to those you dance against, so only so much depends on how you dance - and the rest is about how your competition dances. If I like the other couples, it doesn't hurt as much :) and I haven't taken last place yet when I didn't think other couples were indeed better.

[bailarín]

and the rest is about how your competition dances

Redhead, you made me think about something. I wasn't born a great dancer and had to work my way up the system. There were always dancers ahead of me, most of whom impressed me and whom I respected. When I reached their level and placed higher than them, I did not suddenly start dis-respecting them.

No judgement here - just thoughts

[JANATHOME]

I do agree Redhead.... At this comp we were dancing with others that we were equal to in dance skill . If we are dancing with couples that are above our skill level, I can easly deal with a lower placement. It is actually a motivation for us to work harder.

I was reading on another thread about he cost of comp videos, and yes they can get expensive.. In this instance however it was valuable to bring this tape home to our coach so she could tell us the why... I was amazed as to her response. She said that we were not complely bringing our feet together and lowering in a few instances... I thought it cant be that simple of a fix.. I guess when you are pretty evenly matched in a comp the smallest thing becomes big!

[redhead]

...There were always dancers ahead of me, most of whom impressed me and whom I respected. When I reached their level and placed higher than them, I did not suddenly start dis-respecting them.

No judgement here - just thoughts
respecting your competitors goes without saying IMO ;)

[fire_dancer]

respecting your competitors goes without saying IMO ;)

I completely agree, although there's a difference between respecting your competitors and showing that respect. At my last comp there was an Arthur Murray pro/am couple there that I was competing against, and I knew the teacher (guy) very well, and the girl as an acquaintance. To be friendly, I went up to them before our heat to say 'hi' and wish them both good luck. To my amazement, the guy barely said two words to me, and the girl just turned away and refused to talk to me at all!

Oh my goodness! That certainly taught me a lesson, and now I really make a conscious effort NOT to be like them at competitions, and make sure to show at least friendly respect to all the competitors! :D

[redhead]

Well... friendliness and respect are not the same, me thinks...

[fire_dancer]

True, but if you have respect for someone, brushing them off is not the best way to show that respect. In my book, true respect manifests itself through actions, not just words or thoughts.

[saludas]

True, but if you have respect for someone, brushing them off is not the best way to show that respect. In my book, true respect manifests itself through actions, not just words or thoughts.

You don't have to show respect for your fellow competitors - that's your personal choice.... however, if you want them to respect YOU, then civility and classiness (greetings, politeness, and 'inclusion') are necessary.

People look askance at fellow competitors who are not secure in themselves enough to be comfortable in the scene. The 'superstars' (the people that folks have warm anecdotes about, as in "I went up to xxx and he was so nice and gave me a moment") are always able to accomodate others.

[chachachikka]

however, it is true that coaches/judges will teach their students what they want to see in a comp... so that might be why they are marking their students more or placing them higher... it's a fine line.