Gripe: Self-appointed teachers

[jennyisdancing]

I have a little gripe that goes beyond the usual complaint about people who try to teach you on the dance floor.

There's a guy in one of my classes who is a self-appointed 'expert' :rolleyes:. He corrected me in class, as if he was the teacher. Very common annoyance - but this guy goes even farther.

When we chatted after class, this fellow told me he's "working with" a couple of people in some practice sessions that he has arranged, and he offered for me to join in. He said this with some authority, so right away I asked him "oh, are you a teacher?" "Well, no..." was his answer. "What kind of training do you have?" "Well, I've been dancing for four years..." Also he said he wanted to "give back to the dance community." Um - give back? I was thinking, who is he, Mikhail Baryshnikov? :p
(Note: I've been dancing for many more years than this guy and would never presume myself as someone in the position to 'give back'.)

This fellow is actually a decent dancer but what an attitude! I don't mind at all if someone makes friendly suggestions about my dancing and I can do the same. But this guy is just a patronizing putz IMO. I can handle jerks all right, but what really bugs me is that the self-appointed 'teachers' are disrespecting the real, experienced, and well-trained dance teachers who deserve to be appreciated (and paid) for their expertise. Is there anything that can be done?

[lil glam gal]

i know exactly what you mean. When I was younger at my last dance school a girl used to think that she was better than everyone else and started criticizing everyone else's dancing when she had only been going a FEW MONTHS!

[Larinda McRaven]

If he is patronizing, that is your perception. He honestly thinks he is helping. If you don't want his help then simply say no thanks.

Most people that go to him will learn that you get what you pay for... And if you take free "lessons" from someone that has only been dancing a short while, with no teacher training, then what you are getting is bubpkiss.

If you watch the turnover rate I assume it is pretty high, most people figure out the gig and go looking for something better. Those that actually stay, obviously like it and there is no harm, the system is working for them.

[Me]

'Practice' is one thing. 'Working with' implies instruction. I'd imagine the studio owner wouldn't be too pleased to learn that one of the students is soliciting other students in his/her studio about studying outside of the studio...

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/engel/angel-smiley-003.gif

[Larinda McRaven]

It is not up to the studio owner what the students do outside the studio.

[Me]

(clarification) I'm talking about solicitation while in the studio.

If he ran into her at Wal*Mart, well... that's different, isn't it?

[jennyisdancing]

If he is patronizing, that is your perception. He honestly thinks he is helping. If you don't want his help then simply say no thanks.

That's what I did.

Most people that go to him will learn that you get what you pay for... And if you take free "lessons" from someone that has only been dancing a short while, with no teacher training, then what you are getting is bubpkiss.

If you watch the turnover rate I assume it is pretty high, most people figure out the gig and go looking for something better. Those that actually stay, obviously like it and there is no harm, the system is working for them.I don't know if it's working. I think these self-appointed folks often teach bad habits or poor technique to their hapless 'students'. I wouldn't say there's no harm since poor technique can cause injuries, or at the very least, make for a difficult experience for your dance partners (yes, I've been on the receiving end of this). Also there is the harm of taking potential income away from real teachers.

Sadly, some people are too cheap to be willing to pay for good instruction, or are ignorant enough to believe that a fellow like this has equal skill to a trained teacher. As you point out, you get what you pay for.

ETA: there's certainly nothing wrong with just organizing a practice session with one's fellow students. I'm all for that. It was this guy's superior and patronizing approach in which he clearly has deemed himself an expert who is qualified to evaluate and "work with" (his words) the other students.

[Larinda McRaven]

I don't really think so. Students use their time in the studio to socialize and plan all sorts of events together. You can't really police their conversations. And he is not, from what I understand, soliciting payed lessons, so he is not "stealing" business. Just organizing practice sessions. And if he happens to help some people out with info along the way... well oh well, it is up to them whether they want his info or not.

[Larinda McRaven]

Sadly, some people are too cheap to be willing to pay for good instruction, or are ignorant enough to believe that a fellow like this has equal skill to a trained teacher.

Right, and since he is doing nothing illegal then what can you do, pick a fight over it? This industry is big enough for all of us.

If people want his info a $0 that is fine. It does not take away from my business, where people pay $85, because that is two VERY different type of clientle. Those with him either look around at dancers who are getting better and follow their example of who to take lessons from, or they like what they are doing and you can't change them anyway.

[Me]

This is all true... though I wouldn't recommend picking a fight so to speak.

Saying, "No thanks" to the wanna' be does free her from this situation (for now) but if she is looking for ways to bring this person down a peg (which is what I understood - I may be wrong) one possibility would be for a person of authority (a respected teacher, the studio owner, etc) to speak with this guy before he becomes a monster, if it isn't already too late (as he has had four years to transmogrify). Who knows. Maybe they're looking to hire a new teacher and could work with him on certification. (Not likely, I know.)

[jennyisdancing]

This is all true... though I wouldn't recommend picking a fight so to speak.

Saying, "No thanks" to the wanna' be does free her from this situation (for now) but if she is looking for ways to bring this person down a peg (which is what I understood - I may be wrong) one possibility would be for a person of authority (a respected teacher, the studio owner, etc) to speak with this guy before he becomes a monster, if it isn't already too late (as he has had four years to transmogrify). Who knows. Maybe they're looking to hire a new teacher and could work with him on certification. (Not likely, I know.)

No, no, I want to make clear that I am NOT looking to take any action regarding this person and certainly don't intend to pick a fight. I already politely turned down his offer of free coaching and there's not much else I can do.

Sorry if my post came across as vindictive or something, that was not my intent and nowhere did I say that. I was simply airing what I believe to be a legitimate gripe. I have seen the results coming from self appointed teachers, which is to say a lot of poor dancing by people who refuse to seek out better instruction. It is not fun to dance with people like this, and I now avoid the venues where the problem seems to be rampant.

[Me]

Hi Jenny! That post was my fault. I switched geers and didn't clarify.

I meant, it wasn't necessary for the studio to pick a fight (presumably after you went to somebody there about the guy). I wasn't clear - my next paragraph talked of how you politely turned him down.

I understand completely how you feel. It is not fun when somebody who does not know what they are doing makes you uncomfortable while dancing.

[Steve Pastor]

Jenny, you don't say what kind of classes for what kind of dance.
"so right away I asked him "oh, are you a teacher?" "
This I think is funny, because in the world of Argentine Tango, outside of the US, down Buenos Aires way, the older men get respect because everyone knows, or figures out, who the good dancers are. Same with the older women. (Age isn't required, but there is a special deference to those who have been dancing for decades.)

Some of our more basic social dances her in the US are actually pretty easy to learn right on the dance floor on a Saturday night. But then, if that was widely known, then there wouldn't be as many people making money at teaching.

Does this guy know what he is doing? Is there anything you could learn from him?
Frankly, there are many, many very poor dance teachers in this country. You may have seen some of them on So You Think You Can Dance, causing Nigel to shake his head in dismay and tell some of them that they should give their students a refund.

This Sunday one of the dance teachers here in Portland seemed to be giving me crap about "talking to people" about Argentine Tango. (Hey, they could be paying him to teach them instead of listening to me.) I told him that I talk to people who know less about it than I do. If they don't seem interested, I leave them alone. I still don't know what he really thinks, and frankly, I don't much care.

You might consider the fact that there is plenty of good information available with no exchange of funds. The trick of course, is figuring out the difference between the good and the bad.

[Chris Stratton]

All teachers are self appointed - this remains true even if that appointment has been endorsed by others. Further, there are many active dancers out there who do not teach for a living, yet have a far more solid understanding of dance than the majority of those who do.

You may or may not find a given person annoying, but the real question from a dance perspective should be:

1) do they or do they not know what they are talking about?

2) can they present it in a useful way?

Self appointed or not, if these are true to some degree I don't see what was wrong in the invitation. But even if nothing was wrong with it, you are of course welcome to decline.

It's also very hard to know without turning up what exactly is going on in these sessions. Are they underground classes? Are they facilitated practices? Chances to meet partners? Chances to ask questions? Chances to dance with more experienced dancers in a way not possible in class or at socials? Or just somebody getting an ego trip from their worshippers? There are a lot of possibilities, some good and some bad.

[samina]

i can understand that it's not pleasant to be around arrogance, but the simple thing is just to not engage if someone's vibe isn't what you want to be around. no reason to take offense or get upset, IMV... just smile and redirect your attention to something else. :)

for my part, i've had some excellent learning experiences with experienced amateurs, and i don't think there's anything inherently arrogant or misplaced about an amateur sharing what they have learned with others. i'm almost never bothered by feedback on the floor... i tend to welcome it and enjoy hearing it because there's always something to be learned from it, in my view. the very few people i've met who were truly arrogant, well... i just paid them no mind.

jen, that guy who's working with some people "to give something back"... he may have something legitimate to share with them... and i see no prob with his enjoying the sense of value he would personally gain from doing that.

just my thoughts on it... :)

[jennyisdancing]

All teachers are self appointed - this remains true even if that appointment has been endorsed by others. Further, there are many active dancers out there who do not teach for a living, yet have a far more solid understanding of dance than the majority of those who do.

You may or may not find a given person annoying, but the real question from a dance perspective should be:

1) do they or do they not know what they are talking about?

2) can they present it in a useful way?

Self appointed or not, if these are true to some degree I don't see what was wrong in the invitation. But even if nothing was wrong with it, you are of course welcome to decline.

It's also very hard to know without turning up what exactly is going on in these sessions. Are they underground classes? Are they facilitated practices? Chances to meet partners? Chances to ask questions? Chances to dance with more experienced dancers in a way not possible in class or at socials? Or just somebody getting an ego trip from their worshippers? There are a lot of possibilities, some good and some bad.

All excellent points. To further clarify, I think it's great - even desirable - if this fellow (or anyone) simply says "I'm organizing a practice session, would you like to come?" I welcome constructive feedback (and give it if asked), when done in a friendly, cooperative way. Please don't misconstrue my statements to mean that I think it's impossible to learn from fellow amateurs. I do it all the time with my friends when we practice together and give each other tips.

I will say once again my objection is specifically to the fact that the person in question believes (with no apparent basis) that he knows so much more than his other fellow students and that he patronizingly offers to mentor them. He also made comments that if a lady has had ballet training then he knows he can "work with" her - though he himself has not had ballet.

Steve Pastor, this guy is worlds away from the distinguished, venerable milongueros you are speaking of. I would be honored to meet and learn from them.

As mentioned, this fellow only has been dancing four years and he dances okay, but that doesn't necessarily make him able to teach others. By the way, we are both in an advanced hustle class which is taught by a nationally known, excellent, and well respected instructor. The class involves a lot of technique for the ladies (especially the turns) and I want to follow the instructor's methods because she knows what she is doing.

[Chris Stratton]

I will say once again my objection is specifically to the fact that the person in question believes (with no apparent basis) that he knows so much more than his other fellow students

And why would it be surprising that some in a class know much much more than others? It's really something more like the normal situation. Of course this guy could simply be full of himself, but it's extremely common that there are people in classes far enough ahead of the average to be in a position to give quite a lot back - provided that they don't disrupt the class itself.

He also made comments that if a lady has had ballet training then he knows he can "work with" her - though he himself has not had ballet.

He wouldn't need to have taken ballet himself to recognize the feel of the habits that ballet dancers develop, he would merely have to have experience dancing with a representative number of them. They are some stereotypical ways in which ballet training can have a quite distinctive influence - both positive and negative.

[jennyisdancing]

And why would it be surprising that some in a class know much much more than others? It's really something more like the normal situation. Of course this guy could simply be full of himself, but it's extremely common that there are people in classes far enough ahead of the average to be in a position to give quite a lot back - provided that they don't disrupt the class itself.



At this point I have tried to explain my gripe several ways but I guess I'm not making sense. My complaint had to do with someone being pretentious and patronizing, plain and simple. Some of the responses indicate that my perceptions may be unjustified. I can give this guy the benefit of the doubt. But I also will note that in comparison, I have met many others in dance classes who indeed have a lot of knowledge to give back, and they are much more humble.

[Peaches]

Could be I'm wrong (seem to be wrong a lot, lately, lol), but it seemed to me that this guy just rubbed you the wrong way...understandably...and you were venting about it. At least that's the impression I got. Nothing wrong with that.

[Me]

I will say once again my objection is specifically to the fact that the person in question believes (with no apparent basis) that he knows so much more than his other fellow students and that he patronizingly offers to mentor them. He also made comments that if a lady has had ballet training then he knows he can "work with" her - though he himself has not had ballet.



Hmm. Well scratch my earlier theory - This one's hopeless.

Politely saying no was the right thing to do. You also did the right thing by asking him if he was an instructor. If you get paired with him later in class and he interferes with your lesson there are many ways to deal with it, "Thanks, but I don't think that's how she did it" to the less polite (but said with a smile) "Please stop talking - You're distracting me" have usually worked for me. These sorts of statements make it clear that his instruction is not important to you. If the instructor overhears, she will almost certainly come over and help you with the lesson, and perhaps fix something he is doing wrong as well. (Try not to smile!) Eventually he'll get the picture... or he'll just blame you (to save ego) and move on to the next 'ballerina.'

You might like to read these threads over in the tango forum:
http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=21315

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=21316

Speaks to both leads and follows. Some of it is quite funny. ;)

[jennyisdancing]

Could be I'm wrong (seem to be wrong a lot, lately, lol), but it seemed to me that this guy just rubbed you the wrong way...understandably...and you were venting about it. At least that's the impression I got. Nothing wrong with that.

agreed :)

[waltzgirl]

Saw a self-appointed teacher get her comeuppance in a group class recently (bless this teacher!):

A woman with, shall we say, nerves of brass actually interrupted another couple (she was temorarily between partners in the rotation) to tell the guy he was doing something wrong. The teacher jumped on it right away. It went something like this:

Teach: X, stop talking to them so they can dance!

She: ignores him and goes right on "teaching"

T: Really, get out of his face. Let's let him figure this one out.

S: But he was . . . (starting to explain to the whole class the mistake he was making)

T: But you're not the one dancing with him!

General laughter and applause.

Loved it!

[quixotedlm]

I have a lot of thoughts, but they all come down to this -

I agree with you all :)

Really, jenny - you are right to vent.

And yes, it is totally possible that he is very talented and giving back to the community, perhaps missing just a tad bit of social finesse in approaching peers.

and yes, it is totally possible that he is an arrogant ass with no aptitutde...

[fascination]

seems to me that this sort of person is common and the only way to handle them is to be brief firm and cordial....answer = no...move on

[SPratt74]

I don't think it's wrong for anyone to set up practice time if they are not getting paid to do it. If they are getting paid, then it's not really your problem if you aren't paying them yourself. I for one wouldn't mind doing this if I wasn't already working on competition routines etc. But I wouldn't pay them either. And I would make this very clear, and I would make sure others heard me, so I don't get accused of not paying them later. But for fun and the social part of it all, I probably would if I liked the group.

[Larinda McRaven]

i can understand that it's not pleasant to be around arrogance, but the simple thing is just to not engage if someone's vibe isn't what you want to be around. no reason to take offense or get upset, IMV... just smile and redirect your attention to something else. :)

girl after my own heart.

[Larinda McRaven]

At this point I have tried to explain my gripe several ways but I guess I'm not making sense. My complaint had to do with someone being pretentious and patronizing, plain and simple. Some of the responses indicate that my perceptions may be unjustified.

I can understand that you feel justified in your perception... it is, afterall Yours! But what may be pretentious and patronizing to one person is polite and helpful to another.

And it is not your reality to decide for another person. It is yours... if it means so much to you... then you go live it. But you insisting that he is wrong is no better/worse than him insisting that he is right.

I am not saying that you should not be annoyed, and he very well may annoy me too... but it isn't for me to decide if he is justified in his actions, or your are justified in your perception. Each person can choose for themselves how to live.

And yes, you are welcome to vent here.

[Angel HI]

At this point I have tried to explain my gripe several ways but I guess I'm not making sense. My complaint had to do with someone being pretentious and patronizing, plain and simple. Some of the responses indicate that my perceptions may be unjustified. I can give this guy the benefit of the doubt. But I also will note that in comparison, I have met many others in dance classes who indeed have a lot of knowledge to give back, and they are much more humble.

JID, I don't understand why most in this thread seem to be blissfully misunderstanding your point. I understand it perfectly. Over the years, I have been around many similar persons. They drive you absolutely nuts, and can not simply be ignored because they are arrogantly in everyone's faces incessantly "offering" their "expertise". I didn't understand for a long time why this dilemma exist so much in BR. Thank God, I figured it out.

Steve mentioned how it is in BsAs. We all must know, however, that Argentina is a different culture with different norms, attitudes, explanations, characters and characteristics, etc. Yet, the bottom line is that people are people, and ultimately share basic generalities. The problem in BR and possibly with the person you mentioned is that it is a very personal art/sport. If a painter paints a bad picture, he throws it away. If a potter churns a bad pot, she throws it away. If a dancer dances a bad dance, there is no one to blame but the dancer...the self. We can not throw the self away. Plus the failure is very reflective of something that we hold most dear...one's self. For those of us with a genuine interest, regardless of the reason, one of the ways to prove that we are good and/or to fill our stroke buckets is to teach. Some take it seriously; learn how to dance "and teach" properly. Others, do not.

Larinda is completely incorrect in her assessment that it does no harm. It does, indeed. It cheapens, personally and prfessionally, the rest of us who have studied long and hard to be the best that we can be. A personal example is that one such person as JID described, said to me once, after a whopping 8 hours of lessons, "I have been coming here every week for 2 months, and I am not any good. I should be able to do this." "Why?", I asked. He looked at me and said, "H***, it's only dancing."

I said to him, "You are an architect, right? How long did it take you to learn to do it?" Very calmly, he said, "About 3 years...after college". I said, "How dare you cheapen what I do. To draw your plans should take 7 years, but you want to do what I do in 1 day...the equivilant of 1 hour per day on one day per week for 2 months." I then turned and walked away. He apologized, later.

A professional example is that a student who had been taking AT from me for about 6 months decided to start 'teaching' at a local bar for $5...just to help out the students (sound familiar?). He came to me one day and said, "I think AT is losing its appeal." "Why do you say that?", I asked. "S Winkler's workshop (a very well known AT teacher) in Seattle was very badly attended, and people are losing interest in the bar classes here, too." I looked at him with a very disgusted look of face, and said, "AT is fine. The problem is that there are too many people who don't know what they are doing teaching classes for pennies, and causing students to question the value of real lessons". This arrogant jerk, obliviously put his arm on my shoulder and said, "Yeah. I know what you mean".

The unfortunate answer is that many posters are correct; there isn't anything that can be done about it save to say "No thanks.", and walk away, and hope that others will see the light eventually. And they do. But, at least one person here understands perfectly your issue.

Sorry for the long rant.:rolleyes:

[waltzgirl]

I understand it too. And I think that kind of person does do harm, in that it makes for an unpleasant atmosphere for those subjected to it and may be turning people off from dancing.

When I first started going to socials, my pro and other dancers warned me about the few habitual self-appointed dance-floor "teachers." My pro knows what they "teach" from observing them and he specifically told me I could smile and nod, but not to pay any attention to what they said. In turn, I do the same when I see them going to work on some hapless newbie.

[quixotedlm]

Angel HI - I think I understand what you are saying - and also agree.

All through highschool/college and grad school, I was always able to 'teach' my peers. Generally not because I knew more than my teachers (honestly, it was a 50/50 chance that I knew more than them - but that's another rant for another time) - but more so because what I learned with the help of my teachers, I was able to re-convey to many of my peers in inventive ways that made sense to them - somewhat acting like a tutor. This process in turn helped my own understand of the subject and helped me learn better. Of course, it has sometimes been counterproductive - when my own understanding was flawed and I taught something 'wrong', then a classmate used the wrong fact inan exam and scored poorly. But that didn't take away the overall value of the help I offered to several of my classmates.

Now if I had been a jerk about it, that would have been different. Personally I couldn't quite care less if by offering to help my classmates, I was insulting or demeaning the hard work put in by my professors or teaching assistants.

[waltzgirl]

q, did you go go up to random people and offer your services unasked, or peer over their shoulder at their homework and tell them what they had done wrong? I assume not. :) That's one big difference between what you are describing and the dance-floor "teachers."

[fascination]

I understand it too. And I think that kind of person does do harm, in that it makes for an unpleasant atmosphere for those subjected to it and may be turning people off from dancing.

When I first started going to socials, my pro and other dancers warned me about the few habitual self-appointed dance-floor "teachers." My pro knows what they "teach" from observing them and he specifically told me I could smile and nod, but not to pay any attention to what they said. In turn, I do the same when I see them going to work on some hapless newbie.

1)I agree as well...but I also feel that if something is to be done about it, it is up to the studio owner to determine, not myself...I can bring it to their attention if I feel I have some legitimate claim on it being disruptive... otherwise, meh...

2) also... have to say that this is exactly why, when some newb asks me a question about how to do something, I am as brief as possible...I DO NOT want to be mistake n for this sort of person...

3)I also love Angel HI's point about people's expectations of mastering dance...it is amazing...it always reminds me of the burger chain out here called "HOT and NOW"...I mean is that all you want from a burger?:doh:

[waltzgirl]

Yeah, the way I figure it, my pro has studied dancing for longer than it took me to get a PhD, so . . .

1) he's entitled to the respect that degree of mastery deserves, and

2) dancing is harder for me than the subject I did my degree in, so all I can expect is to have to work hard--for a long, long time.

[fascination]

exactly...b/c in dance it ain't good enough to just have it in your head...

on a positive note...I have liberty to spend far more time studying at my own pace in dance than some degree programs...(let me cling to my little accelerated learning fantasy)

[elisedance]

Amazing thread - 4 pages of everyone agreeing with everyone else! And I agree too (whats not to?). It would be great if you could get this guy to sign on to DF and read this discussion - I would love to hear his perspective! From what I have read he could be both totally appologetic or totally dismissive and defensive - which indicated to me that Larinda is right and we should not prejudge.

In my opinion, a far worse situation is when a studio hires and supports a marginally trained person as a teacher. While your fellow studient at least has no pretentions of being qualified, such hirings discredit the activity and the sport.

[fascination]

lord...that is a whole new...dangerous thread...(uh but a very valid point)

[Joe]

Could be I'm wrong (seem to be wrong a lot, lately, lol), but it seemed to me that this guy just rubbed you the wrong way...understandably...and you were venting about it. At least that's the impression I got. Nothing wrong with that.
It's a free [forum], so she can say almost whatever she wants. Whether or not there's anything wrong with it depends on the content.

[fascination]

yes

[jennyisdancing]

incorrect in her assessment that it does no harm. It does, indeed. It cheapens, personally and prfessionally, the rest of us who have studied long and hard to be the best that we can be. A personal example is that one such person as JID described, said to me once, after a whopping 8 hours of lessons, "I have been coming here every week for 2 months, and I am not any good. I should be able to do this." "Why?", I asked. He looked at me and said, "H***, it's only dancing."

I said to him, "You are an architect, right? How long did it take you to learn to do it?" Very calmly, he said, "About 3 years...after college". I said, "How dare you cheapen what I do. To draw your plans should take 7 years, but you want to do what I do in 1 day...the equivilant of 1 hour per day on one day per week for 2 months." I then turned and walked away. He apologized, later.AngelHI, I totally agree!! I'm so glad you understand my point. This problem is rampant for those who work in the arts or creative fields. It's not a quantitative science and usually doesn't involve professional licensing so therefore some people think anyone can do it,and they disrespect people like you. I like what you said to that man.

q, did you go go up to random people and offer your services unasked, or peer over their shoulder at their homework and tell them what they had done wrong? I assume not. :) That's one big difference between what you are describing and the dance-floor "teachers."

If I didn't explain before, let me make clear that this annoying guy offered his 'coaching' without my asking. On his own, he apparently deemed my dancing to be in need of his remedial help. This despite the fact that the teacher told me I was doing fine.

[Larinda McRaven]

Well I work, always have, in the arts. I grew up in theatres. I know there are people that act this way, I am not disputing that.

I do a lot of work with the universities and colleges here in Boston. There is RAMPANT numbers of self-appointed teachers within the student bodies. I hear kids giving unsolicited advice all the time. I, and maybe because I am secure enough in my own teaching and position, take almost no offense at any time where I hear it. It hardly ruins the quailty of dancing in the College Boston scene, or in Boston as a whole.

So to say it is harmful is not a very good umbrella statement. Perhaps in areas where there is limited good information it makes a dent. But that is certainly not the case here or in other areas (I have worked in NYC as well) where there is lots of good information that is just as easy to come by. And people quickly figure out who is of value as a teacher and who is not.

And the fact that you feel someone thought your dancing remedial... do you honestly care what he thinks? Do you know I still get "hints and tips" from old guys in the line up of a mixer? I was even told "oh honey, you keep taking lessons, someday you could be good" This from a little old guy shuffleing and pushing me through a bronze foxtrot. It just makes me smile. I thought he was cute. I don't feel it neccessary to snap at people or try to "knock them down a peg", just to prove I am better or worth more than their opinion.

[Larinda McRaven]

Just a thought. If your next door neighbor thought your car was making a funny noise and offered to look at it... would it be as big a deal as this? Does this cheapen and undermine the car industry?

And what about dress makers. There are so many ladies sewing poorly made dresses in their basement. Offering them up for sale for only a few hundred dollars. Do you think the other dress makers are worried about this? Does it chepen the gown industry? Not really, it simply provides different levels of price points and quality for women to choose from.

I think Angel HI was right when he said that the difference here is we are talking about ones "self" when your dancing is criticized. It seems to be a much touchier subject. It is hard for someone to take critique about their "self".

[jennyisdancing]

I hear kids giving unsolicited advice all the time. I, and maybe because I am secure enough in my own teaching and position, take almost no offense at any time where I hear it. .

Larinda, I work in a creative field also, and I know that secure positions in the arts are rare, so I would say you are unusually lucky. Most people in the arts have to struggle their entire careers, no matter how good and well-trained they are. And I have seen many instances where they lose work to unskilled people who offer their services cheaper (or free) to those who don't appreciate the difference. I don't know what it's like in Boston, but that's how it is where I live.

[Larinda McRaven]

I don't feel I am unusally lucky. I have been through all levels of proficiency as a teacher and dancer. I have literally STARVED down to skin and bones before as a teacher, and not too long ago either. (Those that actually know me would hardly call me lucky!) Things come, things go. That is the way of it. And I really have to say that I have not felt paranoid or resentful of "self appointed" teachers even when I was in a place of struggle.

Oh, and I did not mean I was secure in my position as a hired coach to the colleges. I meant that I was secure as a teacher and in my position --- to myself---. I could very well be not invited back to campus next semester, for any number of reasons. Any private pro-am student I have may not come back tomorrow, I may loose my competitive couples to the next exciting coach... at any time. Yes, a job in this indusrty is never secure. I simply meant secure in myself. Even if I lose work to lesser qualified teachers. Obviously those teachers are able to fill a "need" in that student that I am not filling. That is cool. I just keep offering what I feel is the best I have. People show up to hear it or they don't. But if they don't I won't pass the buck.

[fascination]

Well I work, always have, in the arts. I grew up in theatres. I know there are people that act this way, I am not disputing that.

I do a lot of work with the universities and colleges here in Boston. There is RAMPANT numbers of self-appointed teachers within the student bodies. I hear kids giving unsolicited advice all the time. I, and maybe because I am secure enough in my own teaching and position, take almost no offense at any time where I hear it. It hardly ruins the quailty of dancing in the College Boston scene, or in Boston as a whole.

So to say it is harmful is not a very good umbrella statement. Perhaps in areas where there is limited good information it makes a dent. But that is certainly not the case here or in other areas (I have worked in NYC as well) where there is lots of good information that is just as easy to come by. And people quickly figure out who is of value as a teacher and who is not.

And the fact that you feel someone thought your dancing remedial... do you honestly care what he thinks? Do you know I still get "hints and tips" from old guys in the line up of a mixer? I was even told "oh honey, you keep taking lessons, someday you could be good" This from a little old guy shuffleing and pushing me through a bronze foxtrot. It just makes me smile. I thought he was cute. I don't feel it neccessary to snap at people or try to "knock them down a peg", just to prove I am better or worth more than their opinion.
lol...larinda...this is so funny even at my level, but particularly at yours;)...but I get it all the time too...I have had fellas who do not have a clue scold me for using CBM (amongst many other things)...and I think you are so right that secure professionals needn't be bothered..it is something I love about my pro and about my primary coach...they never feel the need to make certain that I know of other people's deficienicies in order to make certain that I have a solid faith in them...I do or I don't...they can only put their own skills out there...and since they measure up... no biggie...and folks who would fail to see the difference aren't likely to be folks that would make for good clientele anyhow....

again, I think unless you are the business owner and the activity is, for some reason, thoroughly disrupting, it makes more sense to just let it play out...

[quixotedlm]

q, did you go go up to random people and offer your services unasked, or peer over their shoulder at their homework and tell them what they had done wrong? I assume not. :) That's one big difference between what you are describing and the dance-floor "teachers."


No... not really.. maybe...

Sometimes, conversations with acquaintances (which probably included all of my classmates) went like this..

Me - how are you doing? hey, how is the exam prep coming?
classmate - uh oh! It's coming along ok...

At this point, if I hear someone mention a learning hardship, I'd often offer to help. Sometimes, I might try to recruit someone for group study simply because learning by teaching was my modus operandi.. and I needed a guinea pig :). I was alwasy a codependent learned looking for a sucker ;). Another point - it always resulted in true symbiosis - but I generally got more out of it.

[fascination]

perhaps this is why one can be compassionate toward struggling beginning "psuedo-intructors"...everyone started somewhere...and anyone can fall from security...and anyone can be gracious

[Indiana_Jay]

Do you know I still get "hints and tips" from old guys in the line up of a mixer? I was even told "oh honey, you keep taking lessons, someday you could be good" This from a little old guy shuffleing and pushing me through a bronze foxtrot.

This is hilarious and I also feel sorry for the little old guy. How embarrassed he'd be if he later learned your stature in the dance community! :oops:

I'm not that far from being an "old guy" (although I'll probably never be called a "little" old guy!) and I hope no advanced professional dancer ever hears me give that kind of advice! Mental note -- never give anything but compliments during a dance, just in case the partner happens to be a Larinda!

And BTW, Larinda, how sweet of you to just giggle to yourself and preserve the little old man's ego.

-IJ

[Chris Stratton]

All through highschool/college and grad school, I was always able to 'teach' my peers. Generally not because I knew more than my teachers (honestly, it was a 50/50 chance that I knew more than them - but that's another rant for another time) - but more so because what I learned with the help of my teachers, I was able to re-convey to many of my peers in inventive ways that made sense to them - somewhat acting like a tutor. This process in turn helped my own understand of the subject and helped me learn better.

Yes. A major problem in dancing is that a lot off the time fully competent instruction still doesn't prompt the kind of understanding that would enable accomplishment. A student with a good teacher who isn't getting it still has the right to be frustrated, even though the teacher is good - this is actually the normal state of affairs. But if the physical capability is there, what remains lacking is the specific presentation of the idea that will work for that student for that problem.

It's entirely possible that the statement of the principle that will finally work for a given case will come not from an experienced teacher but from a fellow student.

Of course, it has sometimes been counterproductive - when my own understanding was flawed and I taught something 'wrong', then a classmate used the wrong fact in an exam and scored poorly.

Yep, that's the risk. And also the risk of offending.

[Chris Stratton]

q, did you go go up to random people and offer your services unasked, or peer over their shoulder at their homework and tell them what they had done wrong? I assume not. :) That's one big difference between what you are describing and the dance-floor "teachers."

actually I did teach my babysitter how to do her algebra homework...

[Me]

Re: The Impact on Business...

I think this sort of thing has a much more serious impact upon studios that are run like clubs and focus on group classes. This is why I think JID's 'wanna be' dancer crossed the line when he invited her to take from him while on studio property, regardless of the fact that it was free. Generally group lesson studios pay a lot of money for advertising and have higher overhead. The last thing they need is some upstart wanna' be' coming in and leeching away one student at a time...

Another problem you run into with this is a mutual stroking of the ego. Less educated students or truly bad students who should know better don't understand why studios will work a basic fox for half the class that cost $10 or $15. But when they go take from Travolta who only charges $5, he shows them a bad gold pattern and they walk away feeling like they've 'learned' something.

[fascination]

thus, if the student IS concerned, they can take that concern to the business owner who can make that decision..some will not be threatened...some will...circumstances and realities vary as you note

[fascination]

actually I did teach my babysitter how to do her algebra homework...
lol, LEAST surprising post of the day

[jennyisdancing]

Yes. A major problem in dancing is that a lot off the time fully competent instruction still doesn't prompt the kind of understanding that would enable accomplishment. A student with a good teacher who isn't getting it still has the right to be frustrated, even though the teacher is good - this is actually the normal state of affairs. ...

It's entirely possible that the statement of the principle that will finally work for a given case will come not from an experienced teacher but from a fellow student.


Possible, yes. But it wouldn't be my primary course of action. I've had certain dance teachers where I felt frustrated. My choice was to seek out different teachers and it worked out great. I wouldn't stick with an inadequate teacher and keep turning to my fellow students to pick up the slack.

I'm not sure what to make of your statement that fully competent dance instruction often doesn't enable accomplishment. If it doesn't enable accomplishment, then is the instruction all that competent? Or is it just that difficult to learn to dance?

I could see a few cases where the student is stubborn or has the proverbial two left feet - or when the teaching methods just don't suit the student's learning style. But if the teacher is good, and the student is really trying to learn and is willing to practice, that usually generates good results. At least that has been my experience. Maybe I've been lucky. There were a couple teachers who didn't suit me and I quickly switched, but overall I've had some really good teachers and not much frustration.

[Chris Stratton]

Less educated students or truly bad students who should know better don't understand why studios will work a basic fox for half the class that cost $10 or $15. But when they go take from Travolta who only charges $5, he shows them a bad gold pattern and they walk away feeling like they've 'learned' something.

One of the reasons people may be reacting to this very differently may have to do with different experiences we've had.

In my dance life, I've usually seen bad gold patterns being pushed in organized studio classes, or by professional teachers from those settings brought in to work with college teams. In contrast the spending lots of time on a basic idea approach is generally what fellow amateurs have been pushing.

In my mind, it isn't the status of the presenter that matters, its the approach to dancing that they represent. A fundamentals oriented person is a fundamentals oriented person regardless of their pro or amateur status, and a habitual fluffer is a habitual fluffer...

[waltzgirl]

I don't think anyone is disputing that you can learn from your peers, and as, quix said, it's usually a mutual thing. The annoyance comes from people who set it up as a one-way street in order to maintain their position of "my dancing is better than yours."

But it's true that, if you are secure in your accomplishment, those people can become a laughable annoyance rather than an insult. And you don't have to reach Larinda's stature to feel that way. It changed for me when I reached the point that I felt I could go out on the floor with just about any leader and have a decent dance (reaching the point where I might not always do what he intended to lead, but I'll do something that's on time and makes sense in terms of the dance we're doing so it can go on smoothly). Granted, it took me a few years to get there.

[Chris Stratton]

I'm not sure what to make of your statement that fully competent dance instruction often doesn't enable accomplishment. If it doesn't enable accomplishment, then is the instruction all that competent? Or is it just that difficult to learn to dance?

It is indeed just that difficult to present the information that is actually needed to get a student to the next level of mastery.

And I say that based on experience in a community where we routinely have the best teachers in the world stop in to make an effort to try to get us there - the success rate is still frustratingly slow.

So we all talk about what we thought we got out of our lessons, and sometimes that is what causes the breakthrough to true understanding.

[fascination]

It is indeed just that difficult to present the information that is actually needed to get a student to the next level of mastery.

And I say that based on experience in a community where we routinely have the best teachers in the world stop in to make an effort to try to get us there - the success rate is still frustratingly slow.

So we all talk about what we thought we got out of our lessons, and sometimes that is what causes the breakthrough to true understanding.best teachers or best dancers chris?...one of my highest ranked coaches was my worst coaching...talented to beat the band but not articulate at all

[Chris Stratton]

best teachers or best dancers chris?...one of my highest ranked coaches was my worst coaching...talented to beat the band but not articulate at all

The best teachers - the retired best dancers who train the currently competing ones - have a slightly better success rate since they've had an additional 20 years or so to watch and learn to communicate. But it's still an issue. They are good, they aren't magic. Often after working with them you have only the outline of an understanding - you still need a lot of time turning it over in your mind, probably with the aid of all of local teachers, peers, and partner, before you can really implement it.

[samina]

lol, LEAST surprising post of the day

LOL

[Larinda McRaven]

So we all talk about what we thought we got out of our lessons, and sometimes that is what causes the breakthrough to true understanding.

Yes, the discussions and comparisons are most helpful. Talking it out to make sure that you actually heard what you thought you heard, and understand it the way it was intended, is important. And this could be where the OP's annoying guy is coming from. I doubt it, from what has been shared, but it could be. And the time discussing things with your peers is never wasted.

[Zhena]

It is indeed just that difficult to present the information that is actually needed to get a student to the next level of mastery.

And this is why I still miss my teacher who left the studio almost a year ago. When I had trouble understanding something, he would try another approach, and another, and another ... as needed ... until he found the one that I connected with. He had experienced many different types of students and had paid attention to their different ways of learning, so he had an enormous set of tools for communicating the concepts behind dancing well. Our current teacher is good for most concepts but she just doesn't have that ability to always understand my blockages and help me get over them. Sigh ...

[quixotedlm]

It's entirely possible that the statement of the principle that will finally work for a given case will come not from an experienced teacher but from a fellow student.
.

Interesting that you said this. I wanted to articulate this very idea but I couldn't quickly come up with the right words earlier.

[quixotedlm]

I'm not sure what to make of your statement that fully competent dance instruction often doesn't enable accomplishment. If it doesn't enable accomplishment, then is the instruction all that competent? Or is it just that difficult to learn to dance?.

3 years, I was learning to speed skate and work on a technique commonly known (among rollerbladers) as stride-3. My left and right strides were not symmetrical and I wasn't making any progress. My coach at that time observed that I have a stiff neck/shoulder which I won't relax. After a lot of discussions and trials, I still didn't really get it. I never did master the stride and lost interest. (I still skate - but just not long distances or very fast).

2 years ago, my dance teacher was helping me with basic movement and turns - and I was hopeless unbalanced and asymmetrical. She made the same observation using almost the same words. "Relax your neck and shoulder and you'll do way better. You have a stiff shoulder on one side and that's toppling your balance". I didn't get it. I asked my peers and they all agreed with her. But I didn't understand. Without understanding, I didn't know what to rectify...

About a year ago, I went to a chiropractic for initial consultation. He tood some x-rays and explained that my longtime bad posture has been putting a lot of pressure on my spine in the neck-shoulder area and showed me some minor deformities in the x-ray that was causing me pain. He also showed the areas and muscles that were badly under strain. And then said the same word, "you aren't helping by keeping you neck/shoulder stiff. Try to relax and keep good posture" - and lo! it clicked. I've been able to relax since then. I tried stride-3 once after that, and I noticed that I could get the technique right with good left-right symmetry!

I'm certainly not dumb - but sometimes, even good teachers can't communicate using the exact ideas, words and visualizations that makes sense to each of her (presumably good) students. So students constantly are forced to seek out the 'eureka' moments everywhere.

This is a general statement - this is how it works everywhere. The distinction here is that with good teachers, the number of ideas that they are able to convey effectively is enormous and they only leave a few ideas communicated less-than-satisfactorily.I'm sure that this generalization applies to dance instruction as well.. :)

[jennyisdancing]

2 years ago, my dance teacher was helping me with basic movement and turns - and I was hopeless unbalanced and asymmetrical. She made the same observation using almost the same words. "Relax your neck and shoulder and you'll do way better. You have a stiff shoulder on one side and that's toppling your balance". I didn't get it. I asked my peers and they all agreed with her. But I didn't understand. Without understanding, I didn't know what to rectify...

About a year ago, I went to a chiropractic for initial consultation. He tood some x-rays and explained that my longtime bad posture has been putting a lot of pressure on my spine in the neck-shoulder area and showed me some minor deformities in the x-ray that was causing me pain. He also showed the areas and muscles that were badly under strain. And then said the same word, "you aren't helping by keeping you neck/shoulder stiff. Try to relax and keep good posture" - and lo! it clicked. I've been able to relax since then. I tried stride-3 once after that, and I noticed that I could get the technique right with good left-right symmetry!

I'm certainly not dumb - but sometimes, even good teachers can't communicate using the exact ideas, words and visualizations that makes sense to each of her (presumably good) students. So students constantly are forced to seek out the 'eureka' moments everywhere.

This is a general statement - this is how it works everywhere. The distinction here is that with good teachers, the number of ideas that they are able to convey effectively is enormous and they only leave a few ideas communicated less-than-satisfactorily.I'm sure that this generalization applies to dance instruction as well.. :)

Definitely, Quix.. Though it sounds to me like your dance teacher and your chiropractor said basically the same exact thing. My guess is perhaps it made more sense at the chiropractor because you were shown x rays and could better visualize the problem? But that's a good example of how learning differs from one student to the next and one teacher to the next.

ITA about the good teachers. As I said, I've had some really good ones and typically they teach about 95 percent of things well and are hit or miss on the other 5 percent. For that other 5 percent, I've had good success supplementing my learning with workshops or occasional lessons from other teachers.

I also had a moment where I was able to help a friend with this kind of issue. This is a guy who competes in ballroom so I know he dances well. But he said he had trouble with salsa, that he couldn't get the rhythm of it. I just told him to stop on counts 4 & 8 and demonstrated it. He instantly got it and was so happy! Can't imagine how a teacher didn't already explain that part, but I guess you never know. But in reference to my original post, I only helped when asked and in a friend-to-friend kind of way. I didn't act as if I were a teacher or offer unsolicited advice.

[Me]

But in reference to my original post, I only helped when asked and in a friend-to-friend kind of way. I didn't act as if I were a teacher or offer unsolicited advice.

And that is a very important distinction. :)

[waltzgirl]

So, the difference wasn't really what was said, but that you were ready to hear it at that time. Unless maybe the additional medical info and seeing the xrays helped put you in the frame of mind to hear it (or did the chiro give you a treatment that might have helped you to get the uscles relaxed the first time).

That happens to me all the time. My pro will say something over and over, in all different kinds of ways, and I won't get or I'll get it temporarily and it won't stick. Then all of a sudden, when I'm ready, it will make a kind of sense it never did before and I'll get it once and for all (at least at that level). I usually tease him at those moments by asking him, "Why didn't you ever tell me that before?" :p

I think the "aha" usually happens when the info fits in with something else that has been developing, either physically or mentally.

[quixotedlm]

I only helped when asked and in a friend-to-friend kind of way. I didn't act as if I were a teacher or offer unsolicited advice.


all the academic discussion about pedagogy aside,the point remains that unsolicited advice should be only offered very very carefully taking care to establish that despite not being asked that such advice is not unwelcome, and even then done sparsely, and at that very tactfully...

[quixotedlm]

So, the difference wasn't really what was said, but that you were ready to hear it at that time. Unless maybe the additional medical info and seeing the xrays helped put you in the frame of mind to hear it (or did the chiro give you a treatment that might have helped you to get the uscles relaxed the first time)..

x-rays, comparision with baseline, explained in front of the mirror shirtless.. also massage :)

[Me]

Ooohh... Sounds kinda kinky. (Ha ha, chiropractors, kinky... okay I'll shut up now.)

[jennyisdancing]

x-rays, comparision with baseline, explained in front of the mirror shirtless.. also massage :)

Kinky jokes aside, it does sound like you understood the situation better because of more direct visuals and more physical contact with the muscles in question. But you were in a professional medical setting. However, your dance teacher can't massage your problem areas or ask you to remove your shirt! It would be unprofessional and possibly considered sexual harassment so she was more limited in the ways she could help you. Not that it isn't a fantasy if the teacher is attractive. :wink:

[waltzgirl]

Well, if my pro is trying to get me to understand how to activate certain muscles, he'll have me put my hands on him as he does it and/or put his hands on my muscles so I can feel where to activate. :raisebro:

Of course, that's limited to the back, shoulders, and upper abs--not when we're talking about activating the inner thighs!

[fascination]

sort of like today...I felt like I was some new recipe that pro was trying out...he had the coaching notes in one hand and me in the other, lol...and we'd step and then he's stop with his hand still on me and read some more...since he's been to chef school it sort of reminded me of stirring with one hand and reading the recipe with the other...guess ya had to be there...I found it very very amusing...like being ingredients to some new thing he was whipping up...

[fascination]

but BOT....learning...wherever it can come from is a great thing..often I find that I learn when fellow students ask me for help

[SPratt74]

Do you know I still get "hints and tips" from old guys in the line up of a mixer? I was even told "oh honey, you keep taking lessons, someday you could be good" This from a little old guy shuffleing and pushing me through a bronze foxtrot. It just makes me smile. I thought he was cute. I don't feel it neccessary to snap at people or try to "knock them down a peg", just to prove I am better or worth more than their opinion.


I just laughed so hard when I read this paragraph. It was very cute, because I can picture that happening lol!

But out of all seriousness, if I question someone's ability, I'll just flat out say that my instructor only wants me to learn from him, but thank you anyways! It works, and my instructor is more than fine with it since we do have our own agenda right now anyhow. It's firm, polite, and I haven't had one question me yet after that. Not to say that they won't, but it's worked so far! ;)

[quixotedlm]

Kinky jokes aside, it does sound like you understood the situation better because of more direct visuals and more physical contact with the muscles in question. But you were in a professional medical setting. However, your dance teacher can't massage your problem areas or ask you to remove your shirt! It would be unprofessional and possibly considered sexual harassment so she was more limited in the ways she could help you. Not that it isn't a fantasy if the teacher is attractive. :wink:

I didn't think of the kinky joke angle... mostly because the chiropractor in question was a guy... :doh:

[danceronice]

Larinda, I think I've danced with that guy....

I've only ever gotten REALLY ticked at one dance-floor teacher. When it comes to different teaching styles getting through, though, I just had a minor 'aha' moment regarding that. With my ex-pro, Swing used to be my problem dance. I could NOT get it, to the point I told my current pro I hated it. It's now my best dance with him. The group lesson (taught by my ex-pro) this month is Swing and as he was teaching the basic, it hit me what the problem had been--he was asking for exactly what my current pro was, but he was phrasing it in a way that was just not getting through to me. Even knowing now what he was looking for, listening too much was throwing me off. They both were conveying the same information, but my current pro happens to present it in a way that makes sense to me. Whereas I'm sure there are people for whom the ex-pro's method works great. Sometimes it does matter who's presenting the information, and that's between two very qualified professional teachers. It's like my littles in skating and their swizzles--some grasped the concept instantly, others I'm still trying to come up with a way to convey the information that will make sense and get them to do physically what I'm trying to describe verbally. It's not a competancy issue on their part, it's a learning style thing.

[etp777]

Matching teaching style to learning style is still my favorite pont to make here, but you guys seem to have covered it while I was away. :)

Best dancer (and even best teacher) in the world won't help you learn somethign if they can't find a teaching style that matches what you need to learn it.

[meow]

I hate it when I see a mother of a child on the sidelines of the floor trying to instruct them. They are not a teacher and they are usually wrong and just put the kid under undue pressure. Part of dancing is enjoyment. Some mothers need to know when to butt out.

[Angel HI]

all the academic discussion about pedagogy aside,the point remains that unsolicited advice should be only offered very very carefully taking care to establish that despite not being asked that such advice is not unwelcome, and even then done sparsely, and at that very tactfully...

You have omitted the most important thing...that which the OP objected to in the first place. The problem is that the unsolicited advice had better be RIGHT. And most often, it is not.

[SPratt74]

Best dancer (and even best teacher) in the world won't help you learn somethign if they can't find a teaching style that matches what you need to learn it.

I totally agree here! The same applies for every situation in life like what you have said, not just dance. But it's not only that though, some people just don't know how to teach. Just because they are a great whatever, that doesn't mean that they can teach the subject. I've learned this throughout my lifetime. The only thing that you can do at this point is to find someone that works for you. It's your money that you are spending, so it's your decision as to who you want to go to. No one else can decide this for you even though some may try to.

[etp777]

You've described me perfectly. :) I'm good at a lot of things in my life (and no, I don't put dance on that list yet ;) ), but I jsut am not good at teaching what I know to other people. Have tried it with tech work in theatre, with various portions of my IT work, etc, just doesn't happen. Now both my sisters and my dad, they're teachers. None of them are working as teacher now (except for a couple night classes a week my dad teaches), but regardless, they all have the ability to take something they know, and explain it to someone else, particulrly a begginer (be it math music, dance, whatever), so that the person hearing it can understand and learn what is being discussed. I just can't do that. No matter how long I work in IT, or how many certifications I get, whatever, that's jsut a skill I don't seem to have. That's part of the reason I value my pro so much, because I couldn't dance at ALL when i started, and I had tried more than once to learn some, but it just never happened. I lucked out with pro randomly assigned to me though, she just does a great job of explaining things so I can understand them. Luckily for me, she also happens to be one of best dancers in our region of FA too. ;)

[SPratt74]

You've described me perfectly. :) I'm good at a lot of things in my life (and no, I don't put dance on that list yet ;) ), but I jsut am not good at teaching what I know to other people. Have tried it with tech work in theatre, with various portions of my IT work, etc, just doesn't happen. Now both my sisters and my dad, they're teachers. None of them are working as teacher now (except for a couple night classes a week my dad teaches), but regardless, they all have the ability to take something they know, and explain it to someone else, particulrly a begginer (be it math music, dance, whatever), so that the person hearing it can understand and learn what is being discussed. I just can't do that. No matter how long I work in IT, or how many certifications I get, whatever, that's jsut a skill I don't seem to have. That's part of the reason I value my pro so much, because I couldn't dance at ALL when i started, and I had tried more than once to learn some, but it just never happened. I lucked out with pro randomly assigned to me though, she just does a great job of explaining things so I can understand them. Luckily for me, she also happens to be one of best dancers in our region of FA too. ;)

Lol... you sound like me. Everyone in my family at one time or another were teachers of something. I taught college classes, because I had to in order to graduate. I was good at it, but I didn't really care for it. It's hard. You have to have the right "it" factor to teach, and some people just don't have it. I know I don't. I did try though!

That's why with me, I have lots of friends that want to learn how to dance. I don't even want to show them the basic steps. So, I don't. I give them a calendar with my instructors business card, and I'll tell them to go and speak with my instructor. I've even said that I'll go with them if they are nervous about going by themselves. The only time that I will help out is if my instructor at the time wants me to. Otherwise, I know that everyone has different learning abilities from what I have experienced at the college. Whatever I say, might not get into their heads anyways, since I don't personally know what they are like as a student. My instructor has that ability, since that is what he does for life, so I'll let him handle all of that. Plus... I'd hate to take money away from him when I want him to be around for a loooooooong time!

[etp777]

Yep, done the same thing. If you want to learn to dance, you get my pro's card. :)

I will teach new women basics of dances they don't know at the parties, but that's just because I know they've already got a pro and will learn anything else from them, including fixing whatever I teach them wrong.

[RickRS]

but BOT....learning...wherever it can come from is a great thing..often I find that I learn when fellow students ask me for help

Nothing reveals as quickly to yourself what you don't know about a subject than trying to teach it to another.

As mentioned earlier, a common tool for mastery of academics is study groups outside the classroom. A student attempting to explain principles to the other hapless students will immediately recognize what they themselves don't really grasp about the subject. That is, if they don't let their ego get in the way. :mrgreen:

[Chris Stratton]

As mentioned earlier, a common tool for mastery of academics is study groups outside the classroom.

So why don't we have ballroom study groups ;-) ?

[Terpsichorean Clod]

I'm good at a lot of things in my life (and no, I don't put dance on that list yet ;) ), but I jsut am not good at teaching what I know to other people.
Perhaps it is because you are good that you find it difficult to teach. If things come naturally to you, it may be harder to break things down for other people, as you never had to break them down yourself.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

So why don't we have ballroom study groups ;-) ?
Yes, why don't we? :eyebrow:

[Me]

Because people don't want to learn. They want to already know.

[RickRS]

So why don't we have ballroom study groups ;-) ?

Ok, I'm just going in circles.

We're right back to the beginning, where Jennyisdancing was complaining of a student (a bit of an overbearing one;)) doing a "study group" of sorts with his practice session to "give back to the community".

[Steve Pastor]

"Nothing reveals as quickly to yourself what you don't know about a subject than trying to teach it to another.

As mentioned earlier, a common tool for mastery of academics is study groups outside the classroom. A student attempting to explain principles to the other hapless students will immediately recognize what they themselves don't really grasp about the subject. That is, if they don't let their ego get in the way. :mrgreen: "

Then, they either hang it up, or use it as an incentive to sharpen their own understanding, and how to present it clearly to others. Good teachers are good role models, since good teachers have a good grasp of material and know how to present things clearly.
If you've had good teachers, and have been a good student yourself, you have a better chance of being able to explain to, and, when it comes to dance, demonstrate, what you know to others.

[fascination]

"Nothing reveals as quickly to yourself what you don't know about a subject than trying to teach it to another.

As mentioned earlier, a common tool for mastery of academics is study groups outside the classroom. A student attempting to explain principles to the other hapless students will immediately recognize what they themselves don't really grasp about the subject. That is, if they don't let their ego get in the way. :mrgreen: "

Then, they either hang it up, or use it as an incentive to sharpen their own understanding, and how to present it clearly to others. Good teachers are good role models, since good teachers have a good grasp of material and know how to present things clearly.
If you've had good teachers, and have been a good student yourself, you have a better chance of being able to explain to, and, when it comes to dance, demonstrate, what you know to others.
EXCELLENT

[SPratt74]

Nothing reveals as quickly to yourself what you don't know about a subject than trying to teach it to another.

As mentioned earlier, a common tool for mastery of academics is study groups outside the classroom. A student attempting to explain principles to the other hapless students will immediately recognize what they themselves don't really grasp about the subject. That is, if they don't let their ego get in the way. :mrgreen:

Here's something to think about though. ;)

I wanted to say something about this with what I have experienced. The thing is that with me, I could teach my subject. I was a 4.0 student throughout the majority of my college career, graduated with honors twice and all of that. I had students shaking my hands and saying thank you when I was done teaching them. The only thing is that I know that I don't have what it takes to teach, because I just don't have the heart to become a teacher. And that doesn't mean that I don't know the material. It just means that I know teaching isn't meant for me. It's like when you start a job only to realize it isn't for you. I've done this too.

But anyways, to me it's like I don't want to have people thinking that I am being stuck up or that I'm not smart or whatever just because I won't teach them. What I will tell them is that I am not a professional, and I think that you should learn from someone that is, and to me that's the smartest thing that I could do. When I worked at the college, I was put into the position. If I am asked by a professional to help out, I will. But otherwise, my theory is no. Go to a professional. I staple my instructor's business card with a calendar, and I'll say go and see him. There is nothing wrong with this way of thinking I don't think anyways.

[elisedance]

I agree but usually take a bit of a softer approach. If someone approaches me at a social and asks how to do a step or something I usually show them how I do it but I draw the line as showing them how they should. That way I have 'helped' but have not really 'taught'. I usually also suggest that they take a private lesson and offer to suggest pros.

[Chris Stratton]

But otherwise, my theory is no. Go to a professional.

It's perfectly fine that you have this attitude yourself - it's a safe one.

But it's completely out of bounds to expect that others will also have it, for one simple reason:

"professional" means nothing.

It's a social distinction, not a dancing one.

Who would someone be better of going to for tutoring in your field - you, the "non teacher" with expert knowledge, or a the local elementary school teacher who covers a watered down version of that subject for an hour a day? There are some ways that the experienced teacher might be more beneficial, but there are also a lot of ways in which having somoene who really knows the subject in depth would be more important. Now if you refer them to your thesis advisors that's better yet - but the elementary school teacher still passes the criterea of professional educator, wheras you - the potentially much more effective solution - do not.

[SPratt74]

It's perfectly fine that you have this attitude yourself - it's a safe one.

But it's completely out of bounds to expect that others will also have it, for one simple reason:

"professional" means nothing.

It's a social distinction, not a dancing one.

Well, I don't expect others to feel this way. I was just trying to make a point about how just because you might not want to teach something doesn't mean that you don't grasp it etc. And I agree with you about the professional part of it all. But a simple solution is, if you don't want to teach it, the next best thing would be to refer them to a professional. Of course, this would be someone you want to promote as well though, which in most of our cases, would be our own instructor.

[Chris Stratton]

Sure. It's fine to make stricter rules for yourself - either as limits or explanations - than you wish to hold other people to.

[SPratt74]

I agree but usually take a bit of a softer approach. If someone approaches me at a social and asks how to do a step or something I usually show them how I do it but I draw the line as showing them how they should. That way I have 'helped' but have not really 'taught'. I usually also suggest that they take a private lesson and offer to suggest pros.

I give credit to those that do teach, and can teach well, because I know how hard of a job teaching really is. And I also give credit to those that try to help out. I know how hard that is too. So, kudos to you for doing that much! I don't want anyone to think I disapproved of that at all. I just know what I have done in the situation, because that is what works best for me... and as what Chris said, is safe.

But anyways, I hope everyone's advice has helped the OP! ;)

[elisedance]

Spratt: please understant - I have no problem with your approach, its one of those things we have to simply deal with ourselves. By the way, I do teach as part of my job - its just that, like you, I would rather teach that which I am competent at (to be honest, its hard enough convincing myself that I'm competent even in my own specialty)!

[SPratt74]

like you, I would rather teach that which I am competent at (to be honest, its hard enough convincing myself that I'm competent even in my own specialty)!

But except with me, I'd rather not teach, not even the areas I am now currently qualified to teach in. ;)

[Larinda McRaven]

So why don't we have ballroom study groups ;-) ?

Europe does... Italy especially. And probably that is how they have emerged as a leading force in the competitive world. They hold nothing back and the competitors know that as a unified force they are far stronger than one or two lone couples that stand out.

[Angel HI]

I had to back up and reevaluate this thread for myself, and thought that it might be noteworthy to other posters;

I think we all agree that often the only difference between professional and amateur is opportunity
I think we all undserstand that some are natural teachers and others are learned; some are better by approach whether learned or acquired; some are delinquent whether by ignorance or nondissection of natural ability
I think we all agree that there is nothing wrong with persons offering advice as long as it is appropriate (solicited, warranted, timely, and most of all correct)
...that JID's complaint was that the guy in her op only fit one of these categories...amateur.
...that the best thing to do, all things being equal, is to humbly offer an "opinion" of how something might work better for "you" in a given moment, and then refer the partner in question to a pro (if for no other reason than it's a "pro's" job to theoretically know how to advise/correct)Europe does... Italy especially. And probably that is how they have emerged as a leading force in the competitive world. They hold nothing back and the competitors know that as a unified force they are far stronger than one or two lone couples that stand out.

I believe the reasons why there are no BR study groups in the U.S. include;

initially, most come to BR as a recreational activity (by definition, not something that requires "study")
the U.S. typically doesn't have the patience that other cultures have; they...we are more of an immediate satisfaction culture (thus wanting the result without a lot of study)
it is also culturally prevalent in the U.S. to desire to be the best, have the best, own the biggest, etc. (thus, a study group would suggest needing improvement)I think this last point is interesting because, as many of you know, after one attends a 'Beginners' Class' in Europe, they don't go to 'Intermediate' as in the U.S. They go to 'Improvers' Class'; a term that simply would not be had, here, because, though we all want to improve, it is just not culturally desirable to be called such.

Just some late night thoughts.

[kayak]

Here is another thread by Jennyisdancing from the swing forum on nearly the same topic from a slightly different angle.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=17894

I would suspect there is at least one self appointed teacher of each sex in every group dance class.

[jennyisdancing]

Here is another thread by Jennyisdancing from the swing forum on nearly the same topic from a slightly different angle.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=17894

I would suspect there is at least one self appointed teacher of each sex in every group dance class.

Sorry if I repeated similar issues from my other thread - I guess the point is that I have had this problem a number of times in many different styles of dance (swing, hustle, tango). In most classes and dances there is always someone who appoints himself to try to tutor me, without my having asked for help.

Is this just a common problem or could it be me? I am relatively a beginner (about six months) so of course there are many things I have yet to learn, and plenty of room for improvement. But my teachers all tell me that I am doing great and that I am a very quick learner. My friends with more dance experience also say the same thing to me. I'm doing the best I can, given my limited resources (no $ for privates, and cannot afford group lessons every week for every kind of dance).

So I don't know if the self-appointed tutors want to help me because they think I'm the worst dancer in the room, or (flattering myself) because they think I am capable of a lot, or: neither of the above, maybe they just do this with everyone. :confused:

[Chris Stratton]

One question I'd have would be if these are people you dance with, or want to dance with - or maybe who want to dance with you. If so, it may be that they don't feel that what you have been getting from your teachers, while important, is the full range of things they'd need a person they were dancing with to have.

[jennyisdancing]

One question I'd have would be if these are people you dance with, or want to dance with - or maybe who want to dance with you. If so, it may be that they don't feel that what you have been getting from your teachers, while important, is the full range of things they'd need a person they were dancing with to have.

Not entirely sure I understand you, Chris - but as to whether these are people I want to dance with, the answer, mostly is no, because of their bossy attitude. I want to dance with people who are pleasant and give off a friendly non-judgmental vibe and I try to do the same. Partner dancing involves being with other people and enjoying the interaction with them.

As to whether these folks want to dance with me - in class, obviously, we're in a rotation so it just comes up. In a dance, I'm usually being asked. I'm hesitant to do a lot of asking because I think some folks don't want to dance with a beginner. So I think by the time these guys ask me to dance, they may have seen me dance with others and I assume they have some idea of my level of ability. Not sure what range of things these guys want that I don't have. Being a beginner, I obviously don't have advanced technical skills or knowledge of certain steps. But that can only change over time with a lot more lessons and practice, not in a single night on the dancefloor, right?

[Chris Stratton]

There are a variety of habits that people pick up (or equally don't pick up) that really make the difference between it being worth trying to have a dance with someone, and wanting to excuse yourself at the first opportunity.

Really mastering most of these things can be a major time consuming project of course - but getting an initial awareness of the idea as something to work on is not necessarily complicated or time consuming at all. Unfortunately, studio teaching often neglects these things - they often fall into the category of skills that are implied as part of the package of what dancing is, but don't appear as specific items on any sort of "teacher checklist" of things to cover. In most cases they develop incidentally with other skills, but when they don't there's little ability to address the specific problems in a specific, enabling way, because they are often not known to the teachers as specific items to watch for.

[jennyisdancing]

There are a variety of habits that people pick up (or equally don't pick up) that really make the difference between it being worth trying to have a dance with someone, and wanting to excuse yourself at the first opportunity.

Really mastering most of these things can be a major time consuming project of course - but getting an initial awareness of the idea as something to work on is not necessarily complicated or time consuming at all. Unfortunately, studio teaching often neglects these things - they often fall into the category of skills that are implied as part of the package of what dancing is, but don't appear as specific items on any sort of "teacher checklist" of things to cover. In most cases they develop incidentally with other skills, but when they don't there's no effort to address the specific problems in a specific, enabling way - because they are not on the mental checklist of most studio teacher's knowledge.

Chris, maybe you could give specific examples of what skills you mean?
I will say generally, that when I receive unwanted teaching it falls into one of these categories:

1. Trying to teach me their favorite complicated step or pattern, and not being satisfied with the dance until I execute that particular step/pattern correctly;
2. Correcting or criticizing my technique in a way that confuses what my teachers have said, rather than further illuminating.

Additionally, because of their critical, unpleasant manner, I tense up and dance more poorly than I normally would, so that compounds the problem. Again, I am not talking about someone who simply offers a friendly suggestion.

[Chris Stratton]

Chris, maybe you could give specific examples of what you mean?

Details of movement from foot to foot, also usage of the feet. Even a physically tiny follower doing this in an odd way can be frankly terrifying to a much larger leader in some dances.

1. Trying to teach me their favorite complicated step or pattern, and not being satisfied with the dance unless/until I execute that particular step/pattern correctly;

I would assume we can agree that those are examples of people who just don't get it.

2. Correcting or criticizing my technique in a way that either contradicts or confuses what my teachers have said, rather than further illuminating.

The problems is that teachers don't necessarily get it right - or they may tell you to do something thats only appropriate in some cases, as if it were universally applicable, or they may omit very key things. All can cause very real, very inhibiting practical problems in trying to dance together. But it may be that the answer is simply not to try to dance with that person.

[jennyisdancing]

Details of movement from foot to foot, also usage of the feet. Even a physically tiny follower doing this in an odd way can be frankly terrifying to a much larger leader in some dances.

Hmmm...no one's complained about my footwork, so that may not be it. And I won't embellish or improvise unless I'm comfortable with the basic and feel the leader will be okay with my doing so.


The problems is that teachers don't necessarily get it right - or they may tell you to do something thats only appropriate in some cases, as if it were universally applicable, or they may omit very key things. All can cause very real, very inhibiting practical problems in trying to dance together.Absolutely true - but a beginner dancer probably won't be able to discern their teachers' limitations and therefore will just get confused if a dance partner gives them conflicting information. Only after several months, I can now start to see the gaps in my teaching (and I do think even the best teachers omit things).

But getting back to my original question, I was wondering if my dilemma is generally a common one?

[waltzgirl]

Yes. And it doesn't have anything to do with you, except for your being a newer dancer. IME, people who do this do it to everyone. At one social I go to, it's called "The X Experience," X being the name of the guy who "teaches" virtually every partner he has.

[Angel HI]

Right you are, WG. I am amazed that so many posters are making such a profound experience out of this. It is not new to dance in general and BR in particular. New to JID perhaps, as she is a new dancer. It has been said before....

dancing, especially partnership dancing, is a very intimate activity; therefore, persons take it very personally. If one notices, it is never the very good/accomplished dancers who fall into the X factor. It is always the ones with some sort of inner issue (not necessarily a bad one), who have come to dance for all sorts of reasons, and it makes them feel more successul, more accomplished, more self-gratified, etc. to put themselves in the role/s of master - nurturer - teacher - look what I know - look what I can do, it boosts my ego/self esteem, blah, blah, blah. Also, one should notice that these persons never do it to accomplished dancers...only those like JID.

Further, we understand that everyone believes that what they are doing is what they were taught. No one believes that they are doing it incorrectly. So, if something feels incorrect, it must be the other's fault. The real fault is in these persons insisting on making the other person alter what 'they' believe to be correct re what they have been taught. This leads into JID's second point of these persons setting up teaching sessions under the guise of practicas.

[waltzgirl]

If it's any consolation, jenny, the "teachers" prefer inexperienced dancers. As you progress, you'll run into this less and less. X never asks me to dance anymore! :bouncy:

[Chris Stratton]

Right you are, WG. I am amazed that so many posters are making such a profound experience out of this.

Probably half of what's said in these encounters is totally mistaken and should be ignored or escaped. Another fair chunk is based on real ideas, and possibly important things that are missing, but it too confused/confusing to be of any use. But some of the remainder of what is heard from peers will be important, overlooked, enabling information.

The real fault is in these persons insisting on making the other person alter what 'they' believe to be correct re what they have been taught.

There's a whole continum of possibilities of which 'making' is only one choice:

answering, offering, suggesting, requiring, making

If someone is making someone else do something, that's a problem (unless it's a teacher hired to push you).

If someone is requiring - it depends on what and why, but it it's the sort of thing that condenses to "if you want to dance with me again you have to stop doing this thing that alarms me" then it's not necessarily unreasonable at all, at least if well presented and the option of not dancing together is real.

Suggesting, Offering - depends on the situation, and the difference between one time and persistent.

Answering - well, you ask a question you take your chances ;-)

[kayak]

Sorry if I repeated similar issues from my other thread - I guess the point is that I have had this problem a number of times in many different styles of dance (swing, hustle, tango). In most classes and dances there is always someone who appoints himself to try to tutor me, without my having asked for help.

Is this just a common problem or could it be me? ...

No worries on repeating yourself. I just noticed the similarities.

Actually, it was almost the same kind of experience 6-8 months after I started dancing that got me searching around for more information and answers. That was how I found Dance Forums.

Trust yourself. The trick for me was taking the last sentence in your quote and adjusting my attitude so the word "problem" just went away. Then, all I have to do is weight the validity of the recommendations coming my way. My brain now has a fun little space for odd unsolicited teaching tips people give me. Probably 95% of them are just junk, but the other 5% are great.

The best tips are from the really really good dancers that will just nicely mention something to me. Their knowledge of body motion and timing is enough farther along that sometimes the tip doesn't make sense. Then a whole year later, I will be leading something and suddenly the tip they had given me becomes perfectly clear. It is awesome when that happens.

[Angel HI]

Despite Chris' exegesis.....

There's a whole continum of possibilities of which 'making' is only one choice: answering, offering, suggesting, requiring, making....

I believe that we all know that JID was not referring to those mentioned in your post....

The best tips are from the really really good dancers that will just nicely mention something to me. Their knowledge of body motion and timing is enough farther along that sometimes the tip doesn't make sense. Then a whole year later, I will be leading something and suddenly the tip they had given me becomes perfectly clear. It is awesome when that happens.

but, rather those also mentioned in your post....

[quote=kayak;493295]Actually, it was almost the same kind of experience 6-8 months after I started dancing that got me searching around for more information and answers. That was how I found Dance Forums.[quote]

We all appreciate the former, and, you are right, it is awesome when that happens; even to those of us so called masters.

[jennyisdancing]

If it's any consolation, jenny, the "teachers" prefer inexperienced dancers. As you progress, you'll run into this less and less. X never asks me to dance anymore! :bouncy:

Thanks, waltzgirl. That's the info I was looking for. It was hard for me to know this because there appear to be very few newbies at the dances in my area, so I felt out of place. Most of the people have been dancing for years and years and they all know each other. Or if they are newer, they spend a lot of time and money on lessons before they venture out socially, so more or less they can walk into a venue already being able to dance at a high level. There is not a lot of patience shown to female beginners. Exceptions are only made if she is a cute young college girl or looks like a model.

[biggestbox]

No worries on repeating yourself. I just noticed the similarities.

Actually, it was almost the same kind of experience 6-8 months after I started dancing that got me searching around for more information and answers. That was how I found Dance Forums.

Trust yourself. The trick for me was taking the last sentence in your quote and adjusting my attitude so the word "problem" just went away. Then, all I have to do is weight the validity of the recommendations coming my way. My brain now has a fun little space for odd unsolicited teaching tips people give me. Probably 95% of them are just junk, but the other 5% are great.

The best tips are from the really really good dancers that will just nicely mention something to me. Their knowledge of body motion and timing is enough farther along that sometimes the tip doesn't make sense. Then a whole year later, I will be leading something and suddenly the tip they had given me becomes perfectly clear. It is awesome when that happens.

I'd say that I'm pretty advanced, but i still take class (ballet, latin) 4 times a week on top of my 2 private lessons. In a social dance class, I usually keep my mouth shut, unless she is really really struggling. I learned this the hard way, one of my coaches was a Blackpool champion after working with her for a while I was so excited to share what I had learned with everyone I met. Not only did people not understand, I got some very negative responses for try to help them. So even the information given to me by a world champion is counter productive if my partner isn't seeking the answer in the first place. If I see something which I consider to be "dangerous." I will mention is right away (eg. improper alignment of the knee that can cause major damage later on). I will always correct these kinds of problems no matter what.