Lessons or Social Dance?

[pygmalion]

I went out dancing last night and had a blast. While I was there, I met a young woman who has been dancing less than a year. She took the introductory special at a local dance studio, and hasn't taken any private lessons since. Instead, she's been going out several times a week, practicing social dance. You know what? She's a pretty good dancer, with virtually no lessons. I, on the other hand, am a pretty good dancer, with pretty much the oppostie experience. Lots of lessons, supplemented by relatively little social dance practice. So what's the deal here? Am I missing something? What do you think? What's more important in terms of making dance progress? Private lessons, or social dance practice? Thoughts?

[SDsalsaguy]

As far as being able to get out on the floor and make a go of most anything she's actually got the edge on you Jenn. Nothing prepares one to be able to dance like actually dancing. As far as correct technique and competitive precision are concerned, however, I'd be quite shocked if their wasn't a wider gap between you than you seem to be describing.

Just my $0.02...

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah. And the fact that we were doing salsa probably makes a difference. (Although I have to admit that, by the end of the evening, I was tearing it up! What fun. Salsa is cool! 8) :wink: )

I was thinking that it probably depends at least partially on your goals, too. This girl certainly didn't lack for partners (the fact that she's a statuesque blond probably helped LOL), but I can't imagine that she'd hold her own too well in a technically demanding dance venue, while I certainly could. Hmm. We'll see. She and I have a tentative dance date to hit a ballroom venue next week.

[SDsalsaguy]

Ahhh... salsa makes it an even bigger divide. Well, any social/club/street dance really would... if she's really been hitting the scene then the total number of hours she's put in, actually dancing with various partners, is probably way up there... and, as per my last post, nothing prepares one ot dance like actually dancing. She also probably has received dance invitations she probably wouldn't have otherwise (being a statuesque blond and all) so has also had the oportunity to learn, in application, from some better dancers as well...

...all speculation, of course, but, based on the salsa scenes I have seen, a likely trajectory.

I'll be curious to hear how the ballroom escapade turns out... :wink:

[pygmalion]

Yes. I suspect she's not very good, because of her blithe statement that she does all the ballroom dances. In a year? With no lessons? She may do them, but I doubt she does them well. On the other hand, if she wants to stick with social dance, who says she has to do them well. Just doing them with joy is plenty.

I guess my bottom line epiphany last night was I need to change my dance ratio. Up to now, I've been heavy on lessons and solo practice at home. Now I need to get off my duff and go out more. Should be fun. I always meet the nicest people.

[danceguy]

I found the same thing Pygmalion. All I used to do was go to lessons a few times a week, practice at home and then go out dancing maybe once a month. Now I go social dancing twice a week (and always attend the before dance lessons), and then my weekly Salsa class where there my teachers have some very intense lessons and a little open dancing.

I'm just getting to the point where I'm feeling relaxed with my Salsa dancing...and enjoying being up on the floor for as much as possible.

The only down side, my feet, legs and calves are killing me! I've been getting some super aerobic work outs...have lost a few inches off my waist and am wearing my old clothes again.

I don't know how I could ever go back to my old Ballroom school now...I'm finally where I want to be with dance...and there's so much room to grow! :P

Not to mention all the women I'm meeting....*sigh*. :D

[SDsalsaguy]

Not to mention all the women I'm meeting....*sigh*. :D
Yes, clearly a key incentive for Jenn! :wink: :lol:

[danceguy]

Yes, clearly a key incentive for Jenn!

Smarty pants! :doh:

[youngsta]

SD and I have had this convo several times. My first 3 months with salsa was all lessons, no social dancing. When I finally got out there I was shocked at how much I didn't know...especially in the realm of floorcraft. So I flipped the script so to speak; heavy dose of social dancing and very little time in class. My salsa skills increased exponentially in a very short period of time. I think all the exposure I got to various followers and varying ability levels was the key. In classes the only challenge I had was leading the instructor. I think that was stunting my growth as a salsero.

[Sagitta]

Girl friends and guy friends are both good. :)

I agree that dancing with people of various abilities is a good part of the learning experience and a better socializing one, as well. The good thing about most of my dance instructors is there strong encouragement to do social dancing. :D

[Estella]

In my whole life I took maybe 10 lessons....
Then I did only social dancing, this kind of "learning by doing" and at the end I´m not worse than many people who take lessons since months or even years.....
Later I had a lot of training in the dance company... but I wouldn´t call it a "lesson" :roll:

[ShyDancer]

Lots of interesting stuff to read in here! You guys come up with the best topics for discussion! And me being still a relatively new dancer is finding it all very helpful and interesting!

I have been doing both...well 3 actually, I do 2 classes, 1 private lesson and attend 1 social a week.
I do find however that I am yards ahead of some of the other class members, espescially in the Cha Cha....we are learning things I already know which is kinda boring, but on the upside I get a chance to play with my technique and often get a tip or 2 from the teacher on how to use my body a bit better, all while the rest of the class is learning the basic footwork. Im hoping his puts me at an advantage when it comes to exam time :D :wink:

This way is working very well for me, I guess thats where each person has to find their own balance. After work and home life you have to find time to slot in dance classes which are usually early evening and not easy for a lot of people to make. Some people find it easier to just hit the clubs.
Althoy I do think they would lack some technique thas is taught in class.

[danceguy]

Its hard to really advance when your dancing circle is so limited. Getting out to dance with more and more people has really caused my dancing to take off...I still don't know much but looking back I have learned a lot. While I still take one class a week it really is different then all of the others I've taken...its taught by club dancers who teach us how to dance in the clubs, which is just what I needed. :P

[DanceMentor]

With a good teacher, you will develop good habits. Without at least some quality instruction, it is very easy to get some habits that are hard to break.

I think each person has to decide what is most important, but for me, I prefer a balance of group lessons, private lessons, studio parties, and going out. In addition, I sometimes learn more as a teacher than I do as a student.

[pygmalion]

Exactly, DM. That's the balance I'm looking for. And yes, I think I'm going to add teaching to the mix.

When it comes to social dance, I guess for street dances, that's probably the best approach. But for ballroom dances, the social/competitive divide is so huge that I think just social dancing could be detrimental for me. I need some quality instruction, followed by quality practice, and going out witha broad mix of people. I think teaching could help me reinforce what I know plus identify the things I don't, while learning from my students. A win all around.

[youngsta]

I've been thinking about this a little more. I'd say all the social dancing I've done has helped me develop instincts for my dances (salsa, cha cha cha, bachata). I believe that classes are great for technique, but you can't develop the natural instincts associated with your chosen dances in a studio. You have to be in that environment to max them out. Kind of like the difference between an animal raised in captivity and one out in the wild (to much discovery channel! :lol: )

[pygmalion]

That's a good analogy, youngsta. When I go out to a club or salsa social, I tap into my wild side. And when I'm in a lesson, like my ballroom lesson this afternoon, I'm all about learning the technique. I guess, if I'm lucky one day, I'll learn to connect the two. :? 8)

[dnquark]

There is often a large gap in mentality between people who call themselves primarily social dancers and the ballroom dancers. It just seems that there's a whole lot less emphasis on just getting out and dancing in the ballroom community! This is annoying, since I can't seem to get my fix of waltzing or samba (I realized that I don't care much for other ballroom dances that aren't widely done socially.)

Sigh. And I used to think that waltz was one of *the* social dances. I suppose I'm a 100 or so years behind :)

...Although there are days when I wish I could wiggle my ass with as much style as some of the ballroom guys here. Maybe if I keep taking figure skating, I'll get into ballroom more seriously. If it doesn't time-conflict with a weekly swing dance, like this semester :P

[pygmalion]

Maybe it's because the ballroom dances seem to be so stuffy, at least where I live. Who the heck wants to go and watch a bunch of cliqueish folks, when you go to a club, "shake that thang" and fun guaranteed at a club?

[peachexploration]

....... What's more important in terms of making dance progress? Private lessons, or social dance practice? Thoughts?

Okay this is my own observation so reader beware. :D For Salsa, our area is still relatively new. Quite a bit of us are not as serious about dance as LA, Miami and NY. When I say "serious", it's not in a negative sense but if you watch us out at dance clubs in this area, people dance to be social just as they do in freestyle club. When I watch people dance from other areas, I look at form, connection, footwork, etc. and it's very different than it is here regardless of style (On1, On2). With exception of a few, technical ability really doesn't matter. This happens even in the classes. I was a student as this particular school and would sit and watch the "advance" classes and would notice that they were having problems with just the basic rhythm and no one seemed to mind. So yes, alot of the time, people are more drawn to how a person looks as opposed to whether or not they're a good dancer. Nothing wrong with that either but as this area grows in the Salsa realm (there are only a few schools and even less promoted competitions), it will get better in a technical sense for Salsa. :D

[pygmalion]

There are a lot of newbies, and then there are some very good dancers, of whom some are hopelessly arrogant. The other night, I was at a salsa social when one of those weird songs came on -- you know, the ones that take a while to decide which rhythm to accentuate. A couple measures into the song, one guy there (with whom I will NEVER dance btw) started clapping the rhythm loud enough for everyone to hear. I guess he figured he was the only one in the room who could count to four. What an *oops expletive deleted*! :evil:

Anyway, my point is, wherever you are, you meet these jerks who make the social dance experience less pleasant for everyone. Much safer to stick with your one-on-one lessons. At least you won't run into that kind of crap. Grr.

[samba ajr]

I was just at a ballroom social last night and there was a big crowd because it was a 2nd Anniversary of the social. I do privates, groups and practice parties at my studio, and try to do as many outside socials as possible. My original intention with dancing was to meet people (men type people :wink: ) and that's what happens at the socials.

Jenn, if you're getting ready to compete, it might not hurt to stay away from these. I danced with maybe a dozen guys last night, and only two wouldn't have messed up what I've learned technically/competitively speaking. Each time you dance with someone different--they have a different style, background, skill level.
At best, they'll teach you something new. At worst, they'll do a fake Viennese waltz and all that you've learned to do correctly goes out the window.

If you can keep the venues separate in your head (and muscle memory!) by all means, do all you can. I've decided to compete more for fun than to win (that's always nice too), so any dancing I do anywhere is a good thing.

[peachexploration]

.....one guy there (with whom I will NEVER dance btw) started clapping the rhythm loud enough for everyone to hear. I guess he figured he was the only one in the room who could count to four. What an *oops expletive deleted*! :evil: .......
Much safer to stick with your one-on-one lessons. At least you won't run into that kind of crap. Grr.

What a Jerk! Firstly, that kind of behavior doesn't belong at a social. Regardless of how you feel internally. :evil: Save it for class and then let the "instructor" do the correction. And yes, you're right pygmalion, one-on-one lessons, I'm finding are much better. :D

[samba ajr]

Someone mentioned floorcraft. If you don't go to a social with a crowed dance floor, you'll never be able to practice getting around. And getting around without a heel, elbow or hand hitting someone else--that's the key.

[pygmalion]

Jenn, if you're getting ready to compete, it might not hurt to stay away from these. I danced with maybe a dozen guys last night, and only two wouldn't have messed up what I've learned technically/competitively speaking. Each time you dance with someone different--they have a different style, background, skill level.
At best, they'll teach you something new. At worst, they'll do a fake Viennese waltz and all that you've learned to do correctly goes out the window.

If you can keep the venues separate in your head (and muscle memory!) by all means, do all you can. I've decided to compete more for fun than to win (that's always nice too), so any dancing I do anywhere is a good thing.

Yes. I've run into this. It's keeping me away from one studio, where I love and value the teacher. But many of her students are beginning dancers, with collapsing frames and all sorts of other problems. After an evening there, I actually feel like I've regressed, not made progress. I'm not good enough yet for bad dancing not to drag me down. :( :?

[pygmalion]

.....one guy there (with whom I will NEVER dance btw) started clapping the rhythm loud enough for everyone to hear. I guess he figured he was the only one in the room who could count to four. What an *oops expletive deleted*! :evil: .......
Much safer to stick with your one-on-one lessons. At least you won't run into that kind of crap. Grr.

What a Jerk! Firstly, that kind of behavior doesn't belong at a social. Regardless of how you feel internally. :evil: Save it for class and then let the "instructor" do the correction. And yes, you're right pygmalion, one-on-one lessons, I'm finding are much better. :D

I'm not going to let one jerk keep me away. There were some really nice people there too. As far as he's concerned, I'm glad I know now who/what he is, so I can just ignore him politely at future dances. Better to know up front. I really do think that a mix of lessons, group classes, and social dance is the best for me. I just have to find a mix that works.

[Canadian Guy]

(the fact that she's a statuesque blond probably helped LOL)

My 2 cents, from a beginner who took lessons before going out.

I think there are 2 facts which may explain the differences between her and your experiences.

1) She is a woman
2) She is a statuesque blond woman

Fact 1, means that she doesn't have to worry about learning figures - she will be led into them by the leader. In fact, a lot of woman have told me they don't want to take advance level lessons and learn new figures because they will then anticipate the lead which they don't want to do. They do want to learn styling.

Fact 2, means she was probably getting private lessons from every guy that danced with her when she was a beginner :P Once she understands framing, she is all set - the leader has to do the rest.

I have seen a lot of guys give lessons right in the middle of a club to pretty woman. Guys will put up with a lot from a beginner who is a statuesque blond than a beginner who is short and fat.

For a man, I think lessons are very important, most woman at clubs cannot show a man how to lead, most woman at clubs cannot teach new figures for a man to lead.

View from a beginner.

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: Actually, Canadian Guy, I am a woman, and an attractive one too -- at least, so I've been told by many. :oops: :lol: Statuesque, I'm not. The curves are considerably less generous, but all in the right places. :wink: One of the big differences I've had is that I've taken so many private lessons (about 600 in two and a half years) that, when I go out, I really don't need help, the way a total beginner would. So when I'm dancing with new guys, they expect me to hold my own. Usually I can, sometimes I can't.

I guess what got me about my observation of this lady is that she seemed to have made so much progress without lessons. And I started thinking about the price tag on those 600 lessons of mine :shock: and wondering if I'd taken the right path. I'm going to watch this girl the next time we're out together, and look for technique and footwork. Somehow I think my tens of thousands bought me something. Maybe I need to add more social dancing. But I suspect I've learned a thing or two in the past couple years.

[pygmalion]

You know, Canadian Guy, I've been thinking about this more and come to the conclusion that you're making a great point I missed the first time around. The experience of learning to dance may be totally different depending on whether you're a man or a woman. A beautiful woman out at a dance may have a much easier way to go than a man. Hmm. What do others think?

[SDsalsaguy]

A beautiful woman out at a dance may have a much easier way to go than a man. Hmm. What do others think?
To my mind there's no doubt about it! And, if sh'es genuinely interested in dancing she'll quickly realize which guys to continue to get/accept help from.

I can't count the number of times that I've seen a new woman show up who, if she's attractive, is taken under the wing of one more advanced guy or another and, in relatively short order, she can hold her own on the social floor. ...And I really can't think of a time when I've seen this pattern transpire in reverse. :?

...Aside from this leg up for beautiful women, there's also just a difference for any man or woman... social dancing, especially as a beginer, is quite different for men and women after all.

[SDsalsaguy]

Someone mentioned floorcraft. If you don't go to a social with a crowed dance floor, you'll never be able to practice getting around.
Absolutely! What I do gain from social dancing is the ability to adapt to ever-changing floor conditions. If I didn't socail dance than comp floor experience would be my only oportunity to practice this skill... and that's the last situation in which you want to have to practice an under-developed skill!

[DanceMentor]

After a little more thought, I have to be honest. I actually enjoy my time in the studio more than I do going out dancing. You mentioned floorcraft being important, and I think I am excellent in this area, but I still enjoy the freedom of movement that can be enjoyed at the studio. I also really enjoy breaking things down, which is not as easily done at a club.

[salsachinita]

social dancing I've done has helped me develop instincts for my dances (salsa, cha cha cha, bachata). I believe that classes are great for technique, but you can't develop the natural instincts associated with your chosen dances in a studio. You have to be in that environment to max them out. Kind of like the difference between an animal raised in captivity and one out in the wild (too much discovery channel! :lol: )

Excellent, Youngsta :notworth: ! I couldn't put it better!

As a woman, I guess I've had the relatively painfree job of concentrating on being a good follower. The pressure (of having to know the leads etc.) being put on guys just isn't there for me :P (we girls have a different set of issues)!

Personally, I've taken relatively few classes (both groups and private). As SD stated, I was (one of those naive young thing) "taken under the wings" of my salsa mentor/ex who went straight to "unteach" everything I've learnt in class (which was great in a sence, as having "authentic" street flava gave me a totally different perspective towards salsa than that if I'd stay in a studio environment).

This, however, also gave me a "handicap" as far as (refined) techniques go. If I was ever going to compete, I would be greatly disadvantaged.

I am only starting to work on improving some of these techniques now (totally embarrasing after so many years :oops: .....), as I am working hard on my next break through. It's a bit like learning to improve spelling after years of reading/writing :roll: !

Back to the question: classes vs. clubs? I'd say depends on your personal goal. If you wanna compete, go heavy on classes. If you wanna tear up that floor out there, go clubbing. Wanna do both....? Well, how many hours can you fit in a day......... :lol: ?

[peachexploration]

..... classes vs. clubs? I'd say depends on your personal goal. If you wanna compete, go heavy on classes. If you wanna tear up that floor out there, go clubbing. Wanna do both....? Well, how many hours can you fit in a day......... :lol: ?

Very true. I like that. :D

[KevinL]

The experience of learning to dance may be totally different depending on whether you're a man or a woman. A beautiful woman out at a dance may have a much easier way to go than a man. Hmm. What do others think?
An ugly woman out at a dance has a much easier way to go than a man as well. In general, women only need to know two things to dance well. Maintain frame, and don't anticipate what the leader will do next. That's particularly easy if the lady doesn't have any idea what is possible.

Men have a harder time of it becuase they have to learn everything else. And even if they do get a follower who can teach them, teaching a leader to dance while on the dance floor is difficult because backleading them through steps is counterproductive for the leader in the long run.

In social dancing, women have it much easier. Which is not to say that learning to follow is easy, it's just much easier. Competetive dancing is a different story altogether, of course.

Kevin

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: Beautiful or ugly, no matter, huh? :wink: :lol: :lol:

It'll be interesting for me, because my goal for this year is to learn to lead. I'll be back to post my observations on the relative difficulty of the two of course, and probably start a controversial thread while I'm at it LOL. :wink: 8)

[TemptressToo]

Myself...I've done a few lessons. But most of the skills I've learned I've learned during social dances. I guess I'm pretty lucky to actually be dancing with skilled partners (that have been taking lessons for years), so I've learned some proper technique. The social dances have given me the ability to dance with many different people of varied skill, style, and technique. After all, many parts of the country teach the same dances a different way. To simply take lessons at one local limits the influences you get. I think this goes for most all dances. At least, in my fairly newbie experience...these are the things I'm picking up.

[danceguy]

The experience of learning to dance may be totally different depending on whether you're a man or a woman. A beautiful woman out at a dance may have a much easier way to go than a man. Hmm. What do others think?

As others have mentioned, I agree wholeheartedly that women have a much easier time learning to dance socially. I made another post this morning about a young Salsera where I go dancing who in a matter of weeks transformed into a eye-catching dancer with much attention from all the best leads. And in all I'd say she didn't have to do a lot to get there, besides being a good follower and being very beautiful, physically speaking.

Its also tough if you're a guy trying to impress a lady that catches your eye...she can be taken away from you rather quickly by an advanced leader...especially if she's really cute. Gotta hold onto your heart as someone once told me.
:? :oops: :?

Its very rare that an advanced, attractive Salsera will ask me for a dance...in fact I don't know if that's ever happened.

Well, when the path is more difficult, the rewards are much greater. I keep that in mind as I continue to explore my love of Salsa, so don't give up hope guys! :wink:

[MacMoto]

I have been thinking about this subject for a while, and I think I have two things to say.

First, a few months ago I made a conscious decision to cut down the time spent in classes and focus on social dancing. When I started dancing salsa, I only went to group classes and no socials at all. Then, when I finally decided to go to socials and clubs, I realised that lessons had taught me very little about the art of following. In my classes the teachers were not too concerned about following, and as I danced with strangers and put through moves I was unfamiliar with, it dawned on me that I had got used to anticipating and backleading. It took me a while to unlearn the bad habits (well, in fact, I think I'm still working...). This may be a problem of the standard of teaching rather than lessons vs. social dance, but I can say that I learned to follow primarily through social dancing. It's my firm belief that the more people you dance with, the better you get (I agree with others that it is easier for the follower to learn through social dancing).

Second, having said all this, when I look back on my dancing breakthroughs, I think they happened after I picked up some small technical pointers from lessons (group/private). Things like eye contact, correct arm tension, hand position, foot placement... I do think there are things that are difficult to learn in a social dance setting, and lessons give you the chance to get techniques down.

[pygmalion]

Hi MacMoto! Nice to see you. Amen to all you said. I think both lessons and social dance have value. 8) :D

[Sagitta]

It depends on the teacher. My salsa teacher emphasizes following for the follows. He has small dancing breaks where partners can practice the moves taught plus do other stuff. This way the followers have to learn to follow. :)

[salsachinita]

In fact, a lot of woman have told me they don't want to take advance level lessons and learn new figures because they will then anticipate the lead which they don't want to do. They do want to learn styling.

:idea: A thought came to me as I was reading this :idea: : maybe I can offer my service in these advanced classes where there is a shortage of women. Afterall, the guys need someone to practice on.......!

I am a confirmed non-leader, never anticipate moves, CANNOT show guys any new figures if my life depends on it (which makes me a lousy teacher :roll: )...........but I can follow/train with guys & give feedbacks.

This way I will get to dance more 8) .

[pygmalion]

Good idea, salsachinita. My styling coach/salsa teacher offers all of her socials and many of her classes free to women. Hmm. 8) :)

[Sagitta]

And again the guys get gipped!!! :evil:

[pygmalion]

No they don't. They show up in large numbers and pay their ten buck to get taught salsa. The teacher is smart enough to get women/followers there to help them learn. Works for me (and them :lol: 8) )

[Sagitta]

No they don't. They show up in large numbers and pay their ten buck to get taught salsa. The teacher is smart enough to get women/followers there to help them learn. Works for me (and them :lol: 8) ) I agree for the classes this is great. I too help out on occasion as a leader and participate in the class for free. I just am not so happy about it being done for the socials. But, then if there is a huge imbalance it just might be an acceptable rationale. :wink:

[dancin_feet]

For myself personally, I love social dancing. Really gives you to opportunity to test yourself against different levels, different leads, and generally round out your dancing. I can basically be lead into anything, but I do need the technical aspect of classes to actually relax while I'm dancing socially. The first couple of socials I went to were a lot of fun, but man, was I wired when I got home! Just from the stress of not knowing what is coming next!

It's great to be thrown into anything and everything (which happens to me quite frequently) but if you actually know what you are being led into, you can relax and enjoy it a lot more.

[peachexploration]

...... But, then if there is a huge imbalance it just might be an acceptable rationale. :wink:
Yes, this is usually why, Sagitta. I've been to a couple of socials at this studio and it's usually an imbalance. :D

[Vita Rara]

Private lessons, or social dance practice? Thoughts?

I think it all depends on what you want to do. Myself, I'm a social dancer. I do Lindy Hop, Blues and Argentine Tango.

I've been Lindy Hopping for a little over two years now. I haven't taken a whole lot of instruction, maybe four weekend work shops and the odd class here or there. I've done hundreds of hours of social dancing though. I find that nothing cements the dance like getting out on the floor and doing it.

I'm just getting started with Argentine Tango, so I'm taking some group lessons, but they are really focused on social dancing.

Now for me this works. I want to be a lead that follows seek out to dance with. That means my lead needs to be clear, and fun. I need enough "vocabulary" that I'm not boring. I've accomplished this with Lindy and Blues, and feel I'm on my way with AT.

So, in the end it all depends on why you dance. If you want to compete I'm sure some social dance would be beneficial, but an emphasis on classes and instruction are probably necessary. If you want to be a good social dancer get out there and dance. If you're a lead take some basic classes so you have some stuff to lead, and then keep playing with it. If you're a follow, get the basics of following and listening to what your lead wants and dance dance dance. :)

Mark

[SDsalsaguy]

It'll be interesting for me, because my goal for this year is to learn to lead. I'll be back to post my observations on the relative difficulty of the two of course...
Not that such a thread won't be of interest but this really wouldn't be a fair or representative comparison since you'll be learning to lead *after* already knowing (probably a good deal more than just) the basic structure, music, timing, character, expression, flow, etc., of each dance... This is a far, far cry from needing to learn to lead as part and parcel of all of these other elements.

Just a thought...

[salsachinita]

:oops: This is slightly off topic, but Jenn, I've been wondering, where do you use your leads, after you've learnt them.....?

Maybe there is a place for female leads in the studio, where they teach others to follow.

Occasionally you also see girls dancing with each other, and one usually leads......(bear in mind, I am talking salsa, since that is all I know :oops: )

I am asking because I have been asked every now & then to show the newbie boys some moves......but I have no idea where to start :shock: !

I thought about trying to learn the leads, but every guy I talked to said that I really shouldn't :? ........

Any thoughts?

[Sarah]

I thought about trying to learn the leads, but every guy I talked to said that I really shouldn't :? ........

Any thoughts?

I suspect these guys think that women learning to lead will result in them backleading. It doesn't and in fact can improve your following as you find out first hand what the most annoying things a follower can do are.

Cheers
Sarah

[danceslave]

I went out dancing last night and had a blast. While I was there, I met a young woman who has been dancing less than a year. She took the introductory special at a local dance studio, and hasn't taken any private lessons since. Instead, she's been going out several times a week, practicing social dance. You know what? She's a pretty good dancer, with virtually no lessons. I, on the other hand, am a pretty good dancer, with pretty much the oppostie experience. Lots of lessons, supplemented by relatively little social dance practice. So what's the deal here? Am I missing something? What do you think? What's more important in terms of making dance progress? Private lessons, or social dance practice? Thoughts? I really think it has to do with what kind of dance you're talking about also...as far as i'm concerned confidence has a lot to with how you progress as a dancer...so if you fee like classes give u that confidence as far as structured technique goes then yeah you'll progress, but you also need that social setting to give u the 'diverse' confidence
it's kinda that booksmart versus streetsmart thing... u need a good amoung of both to have balance and do well in the other i guess

[salsachinita]

confidence has a lot to with how you progress as a dancer...so if you fee like classes give u that confidence as far as structured technique goes then yeah you'll progress, but you also need that social setting to give u the 'diverse' confidence
it's kinda that booksmart versus streetsmart thing...

Very true. My experience on classes did the reverse though. I sucked during class time, especially when I'm doing the steps by myself. But as soon as a partner & a lead is presented, I go like a fish in water.....

(maybe that's the reason why I never took many classes)

:? I am still wrecking my brain over this one......why? Is it just a personal learning method issue?

[danceslave]

confidence has a lot to with how you progress as a dancer...so if you fee like classes give u that confidence as far as structured technique goes then yeah you'll progress, but you also need that social setting to give u the 'diverse' confidence
it's kinda that booksmart versus streetsmart thing...

Very true. My experience on classes did the reverse though. I sucked during class time, especially when I'm doing the steps by myself. But as soon as a partner & a lead is presented, I go like a fish in water.....

(maybe that's the reason why I never took many classes)

:? I am still wrecking my brain over this one......why? Is it just a personal learning method issue? yeah i guess ultimately it's up to the individual and also what kind of dancing..i'm not too much into salsa as i'd like but i know from African dancing that its really more ideal to learn it out of class..i mean it's not like ballet where it's all based on technique.. i would think Salsa is more of an attitude... social type dancing so class is not the best really.. IMO

[pygmalion]

:oops: This is slightly off topic, but Jenn, I've been wondering, where do you use your leads, after you've learnt them.....?

Maybe there is a place for female leads in the studio, where they teach others to follow.

Occasionally you also see girls dancing with each other, and one usually leads......(bear in mind, I am talking salsa, since that is all I know :oops: )

I am asking because I have been asked every now & then to show the newbie boys some moves......but I have no idea where to start :shock: !

I thought about trying to learn the leads, but every guy I talked to said that I really shouldn't :? ........

Any thoughts?

Ugh! Why did I have to find this post as I was headed back to bed? :lol: Seriously, I'll give a better thought out answer tomorrow, but for now, here's my reply.

Yes, I can use my leads in situations where there aren't enough leads and I don't feel like sitting down. But that's not why I'm motivated to learn them. The goal is to broaden my knowledge of the dance through learning both parts. Bear in mind that this is coming from a ballroom and salsa and swing generalist's view, but the best dancers I've seen are the ones who can conceptualize the spatial relationship between both the lead and follow parts, not just know their own. That way, they know where their partner's going to be, they can compensate for their partner's errors, they can shape or style or create poses that use their partner's body lines. Just my view.

[Sagitta]

Mine too!! Plus I love tecahing, so that's why I want to learn to follow. :)

[MacMoto]

I sucked during class time, especially when I'm doing the steps by myself. But as soon as a partner & a lead is presented, I go like a fish in water.....

(maybe that's the reason why I never took many classes)

:? I am still wrecking my brain over this one......why? Is it just a personal learning method issue?
Funny you mention this as I noticed the same thing when I went to a class last Saturday. I embarrassed myself as I struggled to keep up with relatively simple moves, but as soon as the class ended and the social started -- much to my relief -- I was fine and had a great night.
My take is that this probably means I am becoming a better follower; my dance is now more about responding to the lead and expressing what the music tells me than going through routines I've been prescribed. I consider it a good sign (that's what I tell myself anyway :wink: ).

[MacMoto]

:oops: This is slightly off topic, but Jenn, I've been wondering, where do you use your leads, after you've learnt them.....?


Yes, I can use my leads in situations where there aren't enough leads and I don't feel like sitting down.
At last Saturday's social, there were a lot more women than men, and some of the advanced women did quite a few dances as leaders. I danced with one of them, and I must say she was the best leader I danced with that night! It was after I danced with a succession of rough leads, so her gentle yet unambiguous lead came as a relief. I simply melted in her arms -- I suppose it was a good thing that she wasn't a guy, or I might have fallen in love there and then!

[pygmalion]

It'll be interesting for me, because my goal for this year is to learn to lead. I'll be back to post my observations on the relative difficulty of the two of course...
Not that such a thread won't be of interest but this really wouldn't be a fair or representative comparison since you'll be learning to lead *after* already knowing (probably a good deal more than just) the basic structure, music, timing, character, expression, flow, etc., of each dance... This is a far, far cry from needing to learn to lead as part and parcel of all of these other elements.

Just a thought...

True. But if leading is the fine science I suspect it is, I still have a lot to learn that's completely distinct from the following I've been doing for the past couple years.

And, in case folks haven't noticed, I've decided to allow my dance adventures to be a test case for DF discussion. Embarrassing sometimes, but lots of people get to benefit (I hope :oops: :wink: ) from my steps and missteps, so to speak. That's a decision I made early on - to share the learning, and mistakes, as openly as I can. I think it's working.

[Sagitta]

And, in case folks haven't noticed, I've decided to allow my dance adventures to be a test case for DF discussion. Embarrassing sometimes, but lots of people get to benefit (I hope :oops: :wink: ) from my steps and missteps, so to speak. That's a decision I made early on - to share the learning, and mistakes, as openly as I can. I think it's working.

Thansk!! :D

[SDsalsaguy]

It'll be interesting for me, because my goal for this year is to learn to lead. I'll be back to post my observations on the relative difficulty of the two of course...
Not that such a thread won't be of interest but this really wouldn't be a fair or representative comparison since you'll be learning to lead *after* already knowing (probably a good deal more than just) the basic structure, music, timing, character, expression, flow, etc., of each dance... This is a far, far cry from needing to learn to lead as part and parcel of all of these other elements.

Just a thought...

True. But if leading is the fine science I suspect it is, I still have a lot to learn that's completely distinct from the following I've been doing for the past couple years.

And, in case folks haven't noticed, I've decided to allow my dance adventures to be a test case for DF discussion. Embarrassing sometimes, but lots of people get to benefit (I hope :oops: :wink: ) from my steps and missteps, so to speak. That's a decision I made early on - to share the learning, and mistakes, as openly as I can. I think it's working.
Oh, no doubt that this has, and will continue, to be of value! And no doubt that learning to be a good leader still involves quite a lot. I just wanted to point out that the same person can't really compare learning to lead and follow (at least not on a level playing field) unless they're learning both skills simultaneously. (And, even then, for each element they'll probably have learned it as either lead or follow first.) None of which suggests that there still isn't plenty of raw material for future discussions and greater understanding... :D

[salsachinita]

I've decided to allow my dance adventures to be a test case for DF discussion.

8) Yep, that's exactly what I am doing as well. I think we benefit enormously from people's feedback by sharing our own experiences. My focus though, tends to be more of a personal journey.......

[youngsta]

social dancing I've done has helped me develop instincts for my dances (salsa, cha cha cha, bachata). I believe that classes are great for technique, but you can't develop the natural instincts associated with your chosen dances in a studio. You have to be in that environment to max them out. Kind of like the difference between an animal raised in captivity and one out in the wild (too much discovery channel! :lol: )

Excellent, Youngsta :notworth: ! I couldn't put it better!

Ooh, so you like Animal Planet too!? :lol:

Funny some people mentioned how rapidly a good looking woman can learn if she's really serious. I danced with a girl about three weeks ago; she was very fun but she was having problems with fundamental dance stuff (keeping tension in her arm and not letting it get outside of her frame). I danced with her again this past weekend and bam!!! Not only did she have it down now, she was dancing with confidence AND doing styling. Our dance was amazing! Totally blew my mind she had improved that much that quickly. Fortunately for me I've always danced with her as a beginner so now I have top billing on her dance card!! :wink:

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

I've been thinking about this a little more. I'd say all the social dancing I've done has helped me develop instincts for my dances (salsa, cha cha cha, bachata). I believe that classes are great for technique, but you can't develop the natural instincts associated with your chosen dances in a studio. You have to be in that environment to max them out. Kind of like the difference between an animal raised in captivity and one out in the wild (to much discovery channel! :lol: )

Very nicely put Youngsta! About two years ago I used to criticise my studio for only teaching technique and undermining other aspects of dancing, but then I realised that instinct, personal style, etc., can only be learnt, developed and perfected on the social dance floor.

BTW, I also like watching those "animal kingdom" programs.