2007 Collegiate Nationals

[FlippySmith]

Hi all,

We went to the Ohio Star Ball this year as well as competing at the Collegiate Nationals for the first time.

For us, it felt a little awkward and we noticed an anomaly in the judging. We somehow received 11 out of 21 possible recalls in novice smooth even though we missed the event. We were not sure if the is an error owing to the PDA system or the fact that there 16 smooth couples on the floor an the judges were simply clicking familiar numbers from Gold smooth.

We were interested in others' opinions of the Collegiate Nationals this year. While we enjoyed the Pro shows, we're not sure about attending the collegiate portion again.

[Donchik]

What college are you with?

[xxtupikxx]

I agree that the judging was a bit uneven. The couple in front of me made gold standard final but failed to make a cut in silver standard! I also thought the enforcement of costume regulations was over zealous and the enforcement of adhering to syllabus was seeminly non existent.

[ACtenDance]

I agree that the judging was a bit uneven. The couple in front of me made gold standard final but failed to make a cut in silver standard!

That happens all the time.

[cantskiforlife]

I agree that the judging was a bit uneven. The couple in front of me made gold standard final but failed to make a cut in silver standard! I also thought the enforcement of costume regulations was over zealous and the enforcement of adhering to syllabus was seeminly non existent.

Costume rules are similar for MAC and other events.

Its wonderful to dress up for the competitions, and much can be done with out costumes. By not allowing costumes, the students can focus on their technique, and the most important aspects of ballroom dancing. Otherwise I can see couples fretting over the decision to spend money on lessons or buy a $$$ costume. A costume does you no good if your technique is weak.

I can't say I saw much that was odd in the way of the judges marks. Remember that a judge has roughly 15 seconds to watch you in a semi-final round (much less in quarters). So if the 15 seconds they see of you are worse than the 15 seconds they see of another couple, the other couple will make the cut. Remember that judging starts before you even step on the floor. Its not just based on technical ability, but on musicality, floorcraft, appearance, presence on the floor, and more.

I do have to agree that the judges did seem to miss a lot of out-of-syllabus moves, but I also didn't see many judges and it looked they were in short supply. Remember that you can alert the judges to these actions so that they can more easily identify the couples and take the necessary actions.

[lupeok]

I'm flippysmith's partner (long time reader, first time poster!) and we were with NYU. I thought it was funny to be one recall away from being called back in an event we didn't dance - wish every comp was that easy! ;)

[Chris Stratton]

Remember that you can alert the judges to these actions so that they can more easily identify the couples and take the necessary actions.

You really aren't supposed to be talking to the judges at a competition at all, and even in looser settings, at the very least not while they are working.

One of the issues with a competition like this is that there isn't a designated invigilator to enforce the restrictions; this is not technically a job of ordinary judges. (Can actually recall a case of a judge marking a couple well but also reporting their violations to competition officials)

[cantskiforlife]

You really aren't supposed to be talking to the judges at a competition at all, and even in looser settings, at the very least not while they are working.

One of the issues with a competition like this is that there isn't a designated invigilator to enforce the restrictions; this is not technically a job of ordinary judges. (Can actually recall a case of a judge marking a couple well but also reporting their violations to competition officials)

Ok, alert the COJ?

[Another Elizabeth]

Can actually recall a case of a judge marking a couple well but also reporting their violations to competition officials.
As a scrutineer, I can tell you this happens all the time. I pass sheets on to the Chairman of Judges when I see notations of syllabus violations (generally after entering the marks - I do those sheets first so I can hand them over).

[xxtupikxx]

If the judges could see past the costumes and judge people on technique, then the costume regulation would become unnecessary. The existence of such regulations simply confirms that dancesport is part "beauty pageant".

[kimV6]

the costume regulation was definitely uneven; there were a few blatant violations even in bronze that weren't called, yet the entire gold standard final was called aside after we got our awards to get yelled at, though only half of the finalists had minor violations (to be fair, we weren't one of them :P )
the one thing i wasn't happy with was the putting 24 couples on the floor at a time in the afternoon sessions to save time, especially in standard for standard and up. i understand the need to be on schedule, but i feel then that we could have done without some of the fun dances, which take up a huge degree of time. plus they're expendable, as evidenced by the fact that two were cut due to the fact that the judges had to leave to make their flights. i felt bad for the judges who certainly had a harder time distinguishing couples in the earlier rounds. otherwise i thought the comp was well-run, and the judging was pretty fair.

[kathyt cupcake]

This year was my second time at collegiate nationals-- it felt a lot like last year. The judges occasionally had PDA problems and there were more music stops and then "lets have a few more seconds of waltz out there" than normally occurs. I like the PDA check in system, and would have preferred that whoever was putting in the names of the heats had labelled them correctly (the heat #s were correct but often did not correspond to the actual event or dance style). My team thought that the costume enforcement was pretty lax as there were definitely costumes on the floor during syllabus (eg newcomer-- fluorescent lime green open back in latin). [We did hear that costume regs will be strictly enforced at MAC as they will also do for nationals in April.]

I thought there was a fair amount of ppl "dancing down"- some newcomers did not look at all like newcomers, and a lot of ppl dancing multiple levels of the same event which we had forgotten that you could do at this comp. I did not like that they changed the order of events to newcomer interleaved w/ silver and the bronze w/ gold-- it meant that we had to throw our newcomers into the mix without having time to get them settled down and properly made up etc (most of the bronze ppl are familiar w/ the routine and don't need makeup/hair help).

We would have liked it if they hadn't done the public scoring for team matches- soooo much time (for those of you who weren't there, they called each couple forward and read out their 2 scores, it took forever and a day.)

I think the organization was fine considering the size of the rounds (>100 for newcomer/bronze), the announcing was occasionally funny, we thought the harry potter formation had great design and execution and none of the terrible jarring musical edits so common in that event.

unrelated to the actual competition, for ppl who live >5hrs away, I would highly recommend flying over driving, as our team is located in PHL and didn't get back until after 3am this morning despite the usual competition weekend sleep deprivation.

[kimV6]

We would have liked it if they hadn't done the public scoring for team matches- soooo much time (for those of you who weren't there, they called each couple forward and read out their 2 scores, it took forever and a day.)

that part was actually the most frustrating. for the last two years, we've had to miss the team match because it's always the last thing on day 2, and we'd rather start our 8 hour bus ride back than stay for a team match. finally we got to compete in one, and we were very certain we'd do well, when we find out that it wouldn't be like a team match at all, but rather a "dancing with the stars" style competition that happened to be in teams. our team just stared at each other open-mouthed when we saw this. it was silly and almost degrading; what if you were the only couple to get a 6, and everybody knew it? add on to that the fact that each heat was taking upwards of 5 minutes, our team decided that eating and going to OSB upstairs was way more important than an embarrassing ridiculous competition, and scratched. that was the most disappointing part of ohio for me.

[IlyZislin]

I agree that the judging was a bit uneven. The couple in front of me made gold standard final but failed to make a cut in silver standard! I also thought the enforcement of costume regulations was over zealous and the enforcement of adhering to syllabus was seeminly non existent.

I am going to avoid commenting on the costumes :)

As for syllabus enforcement, I can tell you that there were major efforts to enforce things. Couples *were* disqualified. The issue is that even with a dedicated invigulator (which the comp did not have) - when there are 20+ couples on the floor if someone breaks the rules for 5 seconds, it most likely will get unnoticed. My advice would be to go and talk to the Chairmen of Judges and point out specific things that a specific couple was doing, and then that couple will be watched specifically.

[IlyZislin]

Hi all,

We went to the Ohio Star Ball this year as well as competing at the Collegiate Nationals for the first time.

For us, it felt a little awkward and we noticed an anomaly in the judging. We somehow received 11 out of 21 possible recalls in novice smooth even though we missed the event. We were not sure if the is an error owing to the PDA system or the fact that there 16 smooth couples on the floor an the judges were simply clicking familiar numbers from Gold smooth.

We were interested in others' opinions of the Collegiate Nationals this year. While we enjoyed the Pro shows, we're not sure about attending the collegiate portion again.

Mark Tabor sometimes steps by DF - maybe he can explain the anomalies...

[IlyZislin]

You really aren't supposed to be talking to the judges at a competition at all, and even in looser settings, at the very least not while they are working.

One of the issues with a competition like this is that there isn't a designated invigilator to enforce the restrictions; this is not technically a job of ordinary judges. (Can actually recall a case of a judge marking a couple well but also reporting their violations to competition officials)

1) You can and definitely should alert the Chairman (woman) of Judges - that is part of his / her job.

2) Believe it or not, some of the violations were so bad at this comp that ordinary judges DID come up to the CoJ and altered her. but yea... dedicated invigilator would be nice

[IlyZislin]

that part was actually the most frustrating. for the last two years, we've had to miss the team match because it's always the last thing on day 2, and we'd rather start our 8 hour bus ride back than stay for a team match. finally we got to compete in one, and we were very certain we'd do well, when we find out that it wouldn't be like a team match at all, but rather a "dancing with the stars" style competition that happened to be in teams. our team just stared at each other open-mouthed when we saw this. it was silly and almost degrading; what if you were the only couple to get a 6, and everybody knew it? add on to that the fact that each heat was taking upwards of 5 minutes, our team decided that eating and going to OSB upstairs was way more important than an embarrassing ridiculous competition, and scratched. that was the most disappointing part of ohio for me.

wow - open scoring... holy mother... I wasn't there for that. Did they really do that? How long did it take, and did newbies cry? :(

[xxtupikxx]

In part the inconsistency in syllabus and costume enforcement comes from having an unclear policy? For example, at this comp there was a number of disqualification for having wrist flyers in standard/smooth costumes, a rule i had never seen in writing.

[IlyZislin]

In part the inconsistency in syllabus and costume enforcement comes from having an unclear policy? For example, at this comp there was a number of disqualification for having wrist flyers in standard/smooth costumes, a rule i had never seen in writing.

Did they actually DQ people or just warn them? (I don't know much about costume rules)

As for the syllabus enforcement. In my mind, everything falls into two categories: international and american. This is only because in International there is (for the most part) only one syllabus used (ISTD). However, in American there are multiple syllabi and it is very hard (and in my opinion unfair) to enforce one particular one, because what if some team/studio teach a different one? Are they "breaking the rules"? I actually asked Ester Don about this at NCC and she said she knows of NINE American style syllabi... oy...

[FlippySmith]

After I thought about it, it was nice to have newcomer/silver and bronze/gold interweaved. It's great if you're dancing multiple levels. Otherwise I can see how it would be quite annoying though.

[Indiana_Jay]

Mark Tabor sometimes steps by DF - maybe he can explain the anomalies...

If Mark doesn't join in, you can easily find his email address on the o2cm web site.

[lupeok]

I have to say, I noticed 2 trends from this competition:

1) There seems to be a rise in the number of ballroom costumes made specifically for syllabus competitions (no stones or floats). I especially saw more in newcomer and bronze than I have at other competitions in previous years (of course, this is only my perception).

2) The breaks in syllabus at this competition were much larger than any other competition I have attended. Doing a rope spin in bronze latin is one thing, but promenade samba rolls in bronze? I've mainly competed in the northeast, so I was wondering if perhaps syllabus is treated differently in other areas of the country.

[IlyZislin]

I have to say, I noticed 2 trends from this competition:

1) There seems to be a rise in the number of ballroom costumes made specifically for syllabus competitions (no stones or floats). I especially saw more in newcomer and bronze than I have at other competitions in previous years (of course, this is only my perception).

2) The breaks in syllabus at this competition were much larger than any other competition I have attended. Doing a rope spin in bronze latin is one thing, but promenade samba rolls in bronze? I've mainly competed in the northeast, so I was wondering if perhaps syllabus is treated differently in other areas of the country.

Promenade Samba Rolls - what's that? Same as Reverse turn? And yea, some geographic areas seem to not enforce the syllabus at all :(

[and123]

Promenade runs, perhaps? Gold step. I've seen Silver couples dance them at collegiate comps and get slapped for it, but can't recall seeing it occur in Bronze.

[xxtupikxx]

I think the future should exist in one of two ways. 1) Forget syllabus restrictions, and let the judges mark the couples they think are best 2) Invest in consistent syllabus enforcement.

[IlyZislin]

I think the future should exist in one of two ways. 1) Forget syllabus restrictions, and let the judges mark the couples they think are best 2) Invest in consistent syllabus enforcement.

can't agree more! I think the only reason some people feel passionate about syllabus is because it helps teach the basics and force dancers to learn at least some technique... On the other hand, without syllabus those with best technique will still win and perhaps encourage others to learn better technique. Who knows...

[BM]

I think the future should exist in one of two ways. 1) Forget syllabus restrictions, and let the judges mark the couples they think are best 2) Invest in consistent syllabus enforcement.

MIT does away with syllabus restrictions. When I competed in Silver for the second time, my partner insited that we incorporate Gold steps into the routine. It was a mess. If anything, I learned not to attempt steps outside of my level in the syllabus!

[Chris Stratton]

MIT does away with syllabus restrictions. When I competed in Silver for the second time, my partner insited that we incorporate Gold steps into the routine. It was a mess. If anything, I learned not to attempt steps outside of my level in the syllabus!

More accurate to say that they do away with syllabus distinctions between syllabus type proficiency levels, however those events are all still closed syllabus (and that is a message that doesn't always get through, especially to novice types from other regions).

And yes, just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you should.

[lupeok]

sorry, shadow samba rolls - guess i shouldn't try to work and df at the same time! :)

[lupeok]

I thought the whole point of the novice category was for those who preferred not to dance closed syllabus. It's just my opinion, but if you're going to offer a novice option, than keep syllabus in syllabus and do your open work in novice where it belongs.

[BM]

I thought the whole point of the novice category was for those who preferred not to dance closed syllabus. It's just my opinion, but if you're going to offer a novice option, than keep syllabus in syllabus and do your open work in novice where it belongs.

:applause:

[xxtupikxx]

Yea, the novice category is great, and fills exactly the purpose you suggest. Competition coordinators should spend sufficient resources to enforce syllabus.

P.S. Do the syllabus categories carry any restrictions on use of syncopations or unconventional positions (such as shadow, side by side or other open position variations) of syllabus steps?

[NielsenE]

P.S. Do the syllabus categories carry any restrictions on use of syncopations or unconventional positions (such as shadow, side by side or other open position variations) of syllabus steps?

Yes, check the appropriate manual for more details

[Sakura]

I competed with Purdue University, Bronze Latin -- and I'll second what others have already said -- kathyt cupcake already having named my two biggest peeves/things the Purdue team noticed: couples dancing out of syllabus, and "dancing down."

It upsets me to see Newcomer and Bronze level dancers who are missing callbacks and the chances to place higher because there are Silver, even Gold and Novice dancers dancing in Newcomer and Bronze (or high-Bronze people in Newcomer). I should clarify here: I believe more in being consistently good, knowing I am working to have that consistency, than depending on trophies to tell me how good I am -- but many of the new dancers can become very discouraged when they spend the money to get to a comp, and then don't even make a call back, or maybe only 1. Then they stop dancing because all they understand is that, "I wasn't even good enough to make a call back -- but I didn't think I was that bad..." -- They don't realize, essentially, that people are cheating.

It is one thing not to get a call back because you are honestly competing against people who belong in your level -- that is a fair measure of your abilities and how you stack up to other couples. But it is not a fair at all that those dancers did not make it as far as they could have because someone danced down so that they could win.

For collegiate Bronze Latin, my partner and I were all around 2nd -- which I am very proud of. If a better couple beat me because in the 15 seconds we were looked at, they were better -- that's fine by me. But when I hear later that the couple that beat us were silver (and good Silver) dancers, and that they were dancing Silver steps and technique in Bronze, that upsets me. Because then it isn't an honest comparison.

If my partner and I are making a conscious effort *not* to use Silver steps or technique we've been exposed to in our studies of dance, because we know it is *not allowed,* while another couple goes ahead and dances with it there is no way we can compete with them. It's comparing Apples to Oranges.

At least that is not as bad as apparently a couple that placed 3rd in Novice Standard was competing in Bronze. Naturally they took 1st.

It just strikes me as morally wrong.

Beyond that, and a few computer errors, I did have fun though. I agree it was nice to have some of the events intermingled; but the order in which things were done still leaves a bit to be desired, I think. I missed cheering on my friends in Pre-Champ Rhythm because I was helping a friend get into her Standard dress to be ready to go for her events.

Hopefully by next year, the rules will be updated, and a more strict set of rules will be in place for regulating who can dance in which levels.

Sakura =^__^=

[NielsenE]

If my partner and I are making a conscious effort *not* to use Silver steps or technique we've been exposed to in our studies of dance, because we know it is *not allowed,* while another couple goes ahead and dances with it there is no way we can compete with them. It's comparing Apples to Oranges.

In general I agree with everything in your post, however I have to ask what you mean by "Silver technique?" And what it means to make a conscious effort not to use it? IMO, technique is technique is technique.

I can think of two things you might have meant:
a) Technique that supports actions only found in silver figures, such as Spirals in Latin. (or broken/counter sways in gold standard). However, being "exposed" to these techniques doesn't make your "technique" silver or gold or bronze. Technique is universal. (provided that you don't use the out of syllabus figures)

b) Your coach artificially calls some of the "layers" of understanding of a very basic action "silver" technique. (i've heard of some coaches who do this.) But its artifically and nothing in the syllabus, or the rules would preclude someone from using this "technique" in bronze.

[ACtenDance]

At least that is not as bad as apparently a couple that placed 3rd in Novice Standard was competing in Bronze. Naturally they took 1st.


This is only a problem if the couple in question is a couple that trains to compete in Novice and dances down into Bronze.... if the couple is in fact a Bronze/Silver couple that dances UP into Novice and happens to do well, then good for them!

[NielsenE]

Even that's not a problem.... Novice is a level co-equal to all syllabus levels. There's nothing "dancing-down" about a Novice couple entered in Bronze, at least according to the rules. In practice, the chance the the couple is "dancing-down" rises if they are from an Eastern, especially Northeastern school -- where all Open levels are generally viewed as post syllabus even when Novice isn't. But still its only officially dancing down if they've placed out of Bronze and are still dancing it....

[kimV6]

In general I agree with everything in your post, however I have to ask what you mean by "Silver technique?" And what it means to make a conscious effort not to use it? IMO, technique is technique is technique.

Even that's not a problem.... Novice is a level co-equal to all syllabus levels. There's nothing "dancing-down" about a Novice couple entered in Bronze, at least according to the rules. In practice, the chance the the couple is "dancing-down" rises if they are from an Eastern, especially Northeastern school -- where all Open levels are generally viewed as post syllabus even when Novice isn't. But still its only officially dancing down if they've placed out of Bronze and are still dancing it....

i read the above comments and was about to write the same things... and scrolled down to see that you just had already said them. thanks.
to add, i would go so far as to say most east coast schools view syllabus and open as a one-ladder system; i would say endemically (and without judgment) the couples that would compete say both silver and novice came from midwest schools (which again, isn't a problem, just a different way of viewing what novice means).
and honestly, even when i go against people who are "dancing down" (which to be fair, competing gold, doesn't really happen in a true sense anymore), i view it as an opportunity and motivation to work even harder.
i will say, that the one thing i did have problems with, in terms of "dancing down" was if a couple had placed high in silver, why they wouldn't just scratch bronze. this happened a couple times, and just struck me as odd; i don't even mind the initial registration, just the decision at "game time", since there seemed to be nothing left to prove.

[Joe]

Honestly, the dancing out of syllabus is only going to be cured by having an invigilator. Or several, when you have hordes of couples on the dance floor.

It's possible that the syllabus violations were the result of couples dancing down--maybe the Gold couples sandbagging in Silver don't know that those steps are Gold (or maybe they just don't care).

[xxtupikxx]

Yes, check the appropriate manual for more details

Can't find any info in the USA Dance rules manual. Is there a rule prohibiting certain holds and syncopations from the syllabus levels? or are hold, timing, over rotation, considered acceptable syllabus variations?

[ACtenDance]

Can't find any info in the USA Dance rules manual. Is there a rule prohibiting certain holds and syncopations from the syllabus levels? or are hold, timing, over rotation, considered acceptable syllabus variations?

You won't find this information online. You'll have to get your hands on an ISTD manual... then you'll have to learn how to read it.

[waltzgirl]

I think you'd have to check the manual of whatever syllabus you are following.

[Nik]

there was just soooo many couples.

[Joe]

Can you imagine having to judge that?

[Chris Stratton]

Does NCC count proficiency points from unsanctioned collegiate competitions? If not, that could explain some dancer's level "changes" - the same is typically seen between the collegiate and sanctioned competitions. Also, you have the issue of differing team schedules - Boston schools often formally start their class in fall and put them in competitions right away. NY schools tend to informally start their class in the fall, and put them in competitions as newcomers only in the spring - thus if rules are not written carefully, you can get a situation where people who started the previous spring are dancing in newcomer against people who started three months ago.

[yanka]

Does NCC count proficiency points from unsanctioned collegiate competitions? If not, that could explain some dancer's level "changes" - the same is typically seen between the collegiate and sanctioned competitions. Also, you have the issue of differing team schedules - Boston schools often formally start their class in fall and put them in competitions right away. NY schools tend to informally start their class in the fall, and put them in competitions as newcomers only in the spring - thus if rules are not written carefully, you can get a situation where people who started the previous spring are dancing in newcomer against people who started three months ago.
What collegiate comps are sanctioned? I'm not aware of any that are both sanctioned and considered to be collegiate (but I also don't know of all the comps out there). Either way, it doesn't seem like enough to move people up...

[Chris Stratton]

Essentially none of them are sanctioned, which rasies the question if there's any proficiency system to feed into NCC or not (there may well be). I'd also guess that they don't go for bronze time limits - while those have worked well in Boston to help move people along (though a few people with unusual histories suffer from them) but there's a lot of feeling against them in NY, both teams and coaches.

[Chris Stratton]

Hmm, am finding a 12 month time limit on newcomer (which is perfect for bringing out the difference between various systems), but no mention of results based proficiency rules yet disovered. Anyone have a link to some that were in effect?

[Joe]

FWIW DCDI was sanctioned last year but not this year.

[Chris Stratton]

FWIW DCDI was sanctioned last year but not this year.

But not really as a college comp - it used adult comp style proficiency rules when it did that.

[elle]

Are there couples at any university which are on the Champ level or higher? Which university has the strongest team with the dancers who started to dance when they were juniors? Or they are all kind of beginners or intermediates (gold-silver-bronze)?

[Joe]

But not really as a college comp - it used adult comp style proficiency rules when it did that.
Well, obviously. Sanctioning == rules.

[LindyKeya]

Are there couples at any university which are on the Champ level or higher?

At most Utah colleges with teams, yes, often many couples. BYU has the most, many of whom started way before college though.

[skwiggy]

Are there couples at any university which are on the Champ level or higher?

I'm not aware of any university couples that dance at a level higher than Champ. :p

[Chris Stratton]

Surely there's a pro somewhere who's in college? At least as a grad student or post-doc or something?

Of course with top amateurs often transferring directly into the pro semifinal or better... someone would have to be more than simply professional.

[reb]

Are there couples at any university which are on the Champ level or higher? Which university has the strongest team with the dancers who started to dance when they were juniors? Or they are all kind of beginners or intermediates (gold-silver-bronze)?

Hopefully you picked up from some of the posts that Champ level is the highest Amateur level.

At most Utah colleges with teams, yes, often many couples. BYU has the most, many of whom started way before college though.

I agree with this. By far. It seems to me that BYU attracts talent because it has such a good program.

To try to answer elle's first question with some numbers . . . I took a look at the NDCA US National Championship results held at BYU:

Its not a perfect comparison
Since we can't seem to get the BYU crowd to come to the USA Dance National Championships yet . . .
I had to profile on 'Provo' and 'Orem' to assume Utah university students, probably missed some who listed other locations and probably counted others who have graduated but merely live in the area)
The stongest representation from the top US competitors are in Open Standard and Latin, while Smooth and Rhythm had fewer in number but still included USA Dance National Champions and Finalists, and there is none better in the US in cabaret than this group of university students (and I guess I should mention their formation teams which compete on the world stage)The following shows a quick (close-to-accurate) count of the Utah (likely university, but not exactly sure - how's that for enough caveats) students making each level of the NDCA US National Championships:

Latin
Final (0 of 6)
Semi (2 of 12)
Quarter (7 of 18 )
1st Round (12 of 30)

Cabaret
Final (5 of 7)
Sem (8 of 14)

Rhythm
Final (2 of 6)
Semi (6 of 12)
Quarter (7 of 18 )

Standard
Final (0 of 6)
Semi (2 of 12)
Quarter (7 of 24)
1st Round (13 of 39)

Smooth
Final (4 of 6)
Semi (9 of 12)
Quarter (18 of 25)

[etp777]

That certainly is a significant showing by the state of Utah. Impressive. Maybe I should have found a school there instead of Oklahoma. :)

[NielsenE]

Can't find any info in the USA Dance rules manual. Is there a rule prohibiting certain holds and syncopations from the syllabus levels? or are hold, timing, over rotation, considered acceptable syllabus variations?

Yes as others have clarified, I meant the ISTD manuals for the style/dances. Or course even so there's some differences of interpretation I've uncovered among invigilators/Chair of Judges.

Roughly speaking, you aren't allow to change the timing of most figures. (Some allowances of gupatcha(sp) versus regular timing in cha-cha, some allowances for fast versus slow voltas in samba)

The manuals normally specified the hold, but often explictly allow a few variations. In Latin, additionally some "developments" are listed -- these are variations on the figure that are allowed at a higher level than the level at which they are originally introduced.

One common place that a seemingly trivial change moves a step from Gold to Open is in Sliding Doors in Rumba, according to most CoJs if you lose connection during the cucaracha portion then you're doing an open version of the step and would be invigilated.

Amount of rotation seems to be the one place the most "slop" is allowed. The book specifies the amount needed for examination purposes, but also states that it can vary based on the flow of the figures, etc. My rough guess, adding an 1/8 would probably not get commented on, adding 1/4 would probably raise some invigilators brows, and adding 1/2 or more is probably right out (with the possible exception of Natural opening out, as I've seen silver dancers getting close to an extra 1/2 rather often, without being called on it....)

I've only "studied" the Rumba manual in depth and I think I understand exactly what would be allowed in Bronze and Silver. Though Gold is currently eluding me since the interaction of the variations and developments makes it quite complicated.

[SyrU_dancer]

Well I skimmed the entire thread.

My thoughts:
The PDA system and Website in general need a LOT of work. My partner and I had 3 numbers for us somehow, and only found out after a judge said our number wasn't on his screen. thankfully we got it fixed and made the next round, but all the same it was stressful.

Costumes:
I was talking with a scrutineer on the sidelines, it's a really tough call. Specifically we were watching bronze latin (all 7 rounds ugh) and there were 3 that stood out. Problem was even though we knew the 3 were outright costumes, 2 of them fit the new costume rules. So what could you do call out the one? That's unfair.
Personally I don't know what team lets these girls do this. You look ridiculous dancing bronze with a a full costume, like Chris said spend the money on lessons for better technique.

As for the dancing down nonsense, it's overall unfair, for everyone. Plus what does that ribbon mean you got from dancing down? Why not go beat up on the 6th grade kickball recess session, I'm sure that will make you feel good.
There really is no way to enforce this other than peer pressure, from friends and team captains. It's especially hard at Ohio because you have couples from nationwide so you don't know what they normally compete, and a national points system... good luck!

In the end I had fun, saw some old friend, and saw some amazing dancing upstairs, which is what I went to ohio for. Past that it was nice to dance a bit.

[Joe]

Can't find anything definitive on the website, but note that the comp required entrants to be USADance members, thus (presumably) requiring them to enter levels according to USADance proficency eligibility. Aside from Newcomer, which had its own specific set of eligibility rules, it's extremely doubtful that many college competitors have racked up enough USADance points to kick them up even out of USADance Bronze. Now, does that make dancing down the right thing to do? No, but dollars to donuts those "sandbaggers" were well within the rules.

[wyllo]

Costumes:
I was talking with a scrutineer on the sidelines, it's a really tough call. Specifically we were watching bronze latin (all 7 rounds ugh) and there were 3 that stood out. Problem was even though we knew the 3 were outright costumes, 2 of them fit the new costume rules. So what could you do call out the one? That's unfair.

Sounds perfectly fair to me. If you are in violation of the rules then you should be called on it. I am curious, though, as to what made the two costumes that fit the rules "outright costumes?"


There really is no way to enforce this other than peer pressure, from friends and team captains. It's especially hard at Ohio because you have couples from nationwide so you don't know what they normally compete, and a national points system... good luck!

That's a good point, but even when there is information available there seems little desire to enforce competition rules.

Last year I noticed a follow dancing newcomer that I knew had been dancing a number of years. I looked it up and she had danced newcomer at OSB for the past three years!! I reported it to the organizers (the results are available online - it's easy to verify) but nothing was done and she was allowed to dance. I know the organizers can't keep track of everyone, but surely they can do something about blatant violations.

[kathyt cupcake]

[quote=SyrU_dancer;497053]
Personally I don't know what team lets these girls do this. You look ridiculous dancing bronze with a a full costume, like Chris said spend the money on lessons for better technique.

As for the dancing down nonsense, it's overall unfair, for everyone. Plus what does that ribbon mean you got from dancing down? Why not go beat up on the 6th grade kickball recess session, I'm sure that will make you feel good.
/quote]

Some teams own costumes so the ppl wearing costumes might not have had to spend anything for them, and what you think looks ridiculous is a) located in the context of the comp and b) going to get looked at for a few extra seconds. It is annoying, but everyone probably looked at them too. And no, we weren't the ppl pushing the boundaries.

Actually, there is some minor pseudo monetary incentive to dancing down b/c the awards for placing 123 in events and overall in the syllabus level include discounts towards attending the dance camps, etc.

My team apparently had collective amnesia about dancing multiple syllabus levels in the same event but I'll try to remember for next year.

[Chris Stratton]

Actually, the more specifically costume rules are written, the more likely you are to see things made specifically to satisfy them. There just aren't that many off-the-rack standard/smooth skirts or dresses to be had anyway; start restricting trivial department store type decoration and you really encourage made-for-syllabus clothing.

The old rules about rhinestones and feathers quite specifically targeted items that were common on outright ballgowns, but relatively easily to avoid. Especially as department store beading - which doesn't function as rhinestones would at any distance - did not count as rhinestones, yet counts as decoration today.

In effect, the new stricter rules raise the cost of compliance.

[Joe]

What exactly were the costume rules? I kept hearing stuff being bandied about but could find no confirmation of such.

[IlyZislin]

What exactly were the costume rules? I kept hearing stuff being bandied about but could find no confirmation of such.

I believe they were USA Dance rules.

[kathyt cupcake]

What exactly were the costume rules? I kept hearing stuff being bandied about but could find no confirmation of such.

from the bottom of this page
http://cdcusabda.accessdance.com/index.cfm/showsection/registration_policies/showsubsection/rules_policies/cat_id/247/page.htm

"Dress code NO COSTUMES PERMITTED in the Newcomer or Syllabus categories (See USA Dance Dress Code for exact rules.) For the Smooth and Standard Divisions, gentlemen should wear dark pants with a white shirt and tie (jackets or plain dark cardigan sweaters are optional); ladies should wear leotards or blouses with skirts, or party or cocktail dresses. For the Rhythm and Latin divisions, gentlemen should wear dark pants and a plain white or black shirt (tie optional); ladies should wear leotards or blouses with skirts, or party or cocktail dresses. Note: Pants are not permitted to be worn by ladies in Newcomer or Syllabus events.

COSTUMES PERMITTED BUT NOT REQUIRED in the Novice, Pre-Championship, Championship, Team Matches, and Open-To-All (FUN) categories."

[SyrU_dancer]

Sounds perfectly fair to me. If you are in violation of the rules then you should be called on it. I am curious, though, as to what made the two costumes that fit the rules "outright costumes?"



You could see they we cut specifically for them. They weren't something you find on the rack at Macy's or Jcpenny, or even a specialty shop outside of ballroom.

[Chris Stratton]

You could see they we cut specifically for them. They weren't something you find on the rack at Macy's or Jcpenny, or even a specialty shop outside of ballroom.

Yes, the more specific the rules get, the more they encourage clothing specifically made to conform to them - because most of what you can easily buy doesn't.

This "off the rack" guideline is not to be found anywhere in the applicable rules. A few collegiate comps with very shortsighted organizers have tried to do it, but it simply does not work - you end up with both unintended violations in manufacturer decoration and dancing comically constrained by too narrow hems.

[Joe]

Well, there were a metric S-ton of girls wearing things that were NOT "leotards or blouses with skirts, or party or cocktail dresses" there...

[and123]

I wore a "leotard with skirt" at the Yankee Classic a few years ago dancing Am/Am, and felt INCREDIBLY out of place :-|. Why bother posting rules when there is no enforcement?

[reb]

Why bother posting rules when there is no enforcement?
Sounds like the NDCA Nationals where the costume restrictions are . . . unusually restrictive for adults in open events (for example, 1" strap width on the shoulder, lower back covered 5" above waistline, length of dress, no cutouts or nude fabrics, etc.).

Most people came prepared, followed the rules, and passed the test when measured by the "lady with the tape measure".

Then there were those who wore a jacket or robe over their dress until the last minute, avoided the tape lady, and worse.:evil:

The story of the scorpion and the frog - each according to their nature . . . the good peeps were good, the bad peeps were bad, and some probably just didn't get it.:D

[Chris Stratton]

Well, there were a metric S-ton of girls wearing things that were NOT "leotards or blouses with skirts, or party or cocktail dresses" there...

Actually, that quote does not occur in the official costume rules ultimately applicable to this competition:

"See USA Dance Dress Code for exact rules." = http://documents.usabda.org/1341/3113/2007_2008_Dress_Code_v12.pdf

What does occur is a description of the allowed and disallowed characteristics - which these made for dancing outfits probably meet more faithfully and functionally than anything you could buy at Macys.

They really should be more careful to avoid posting summaries on the competition site that give a misleading idea of the real rules which they have chosen to apply by reference.

[o2cm_mwt]

Mark Tabor sometimes steps by DF - maybe he can explain the anomalies...

The PDA's force the Judges to recall the correct number of couples. Unlike paper, they cannot return an unfilled form.

When they start scrambling for that last 1 or 2 numbers they are missing, they may select a number on the PDA which they recall from a previous event, assuming they missed the couple on a crowded floor in the current event.