Do dance teachers need to know silver+?

[pygmalion]

In a lesson with one of my former dance teachers, the goal was to introduce me to silver ECS. The only problem was that he kept needing to ******* his memory on the step patterns. None of his other students was at silver level. In my observation, the vast majority of ballroom dance students never make it beyond bronze at the most. So do dance teachers really need to know silver and above, if it's unlikely they'll have many, if any, silver students? If so, why?

[Sagitta]

It is the same for teaching any subject. The more versed the teacher the more tools he/she has at his disposal. A high school tecaher with masters is adequate, but one with a Phd and/or industrial experience has a greater pool of knowledge/tool set to draw upon. He/she might be rusty if it isn't required often, but if a person learns something well it's never lost.


This doesn't mean a person with masters won't teach better then one with a Phd, or that a dance teacher who does not know silver will be a wosre teacher then one who does. Similarly, I have tutored in subjects I know little of as many people like the way that I impart knowledge, and they have done well in what I have taught. :)

[dancin_feet]

IMO teachers need to be at least two "levels" above their most advanced student, from a teaching perspective.

I have one guy at my studio who is one level ahead of me, but his instructor is not yet qualified to teach advanced bronze group classes. She is trying to teach him intermediate bronze and is struggling with it. His progress has virtually stopped because his teacher is not advanced enough to give him the knowledge he needs.

Teachers / instructors need to be on top of what students they have and what levels they need to be at to instruct those students. If they are not, they should either be constantly upgrading their skills or consider transferring their students to another teacher once they get to that level.

[SDsalsaguy]

I think it all depends on what's being taught. Maybe someone doesn't even know their bronze syllabus... but if they know and can teach how to really move? Well, to me that's worth infinetly more than knowing their gold syllabus down cold.

[DanceMentor]

I went for a long time without ever really knowing the complete Silver syllabus (even though I knew lots of silver level steps). There are many dance teachers out there who specialize in teaching beginners. There are actually more beginners than there are advanced students. So yes, it is very easy for a teacher to teach just bronze. I know quite a few teachers who don't know silver, but they much better teachers some of their peers who know silver and above.

I do know the silver syllabus quite well now, and hope to check out soon.

[dancin_feet]

Maybe I'm missing the point of the post. If they want to teach silver, they need to know it, or a little ahead of what they are going to teach. If a teacher wants to just stick to teaching beginners, no they probably don't need to know bronze syllabus, but they need to be able to recognise their limitation and pass their students onto someone else when the student wants to progress past this point, rather than learning along with them.

Doesn't build the confidence knowing your teacher is learning how to teach you immediately before the lesson!! :shock:

[SDsalsaguy]

they need to be able to recognise their limitation and pass their students onto someone else when the student wants to progress past this point, rather than learning along with them.
Well said d_f... although I'm afraid the economic side of the equation gets in the way of this much too often... :(

[Porfirio Landeros]

... although I'm afraid the economic side of the equation gets in the way of this much too often... :(.
I'll buy that for a dollar.
;)

[pygmalion]

I agree with that, having experienced it first hand.

It also begs the question, at least in my mind, of whether there's any point in social dancers learning silver and above. With whom are they going to do these silver steps, exactly? Very few, if any, people, ever get that far. And yet there are studios out there, selling their non-competitive students silver. Why?

When you get into competitive dance, pro-am or professional, that's a whole different story, I think.

But at a social level, what is the point of learning a bunch of steps you'll rarely if ever use? Hence my former (and much loved -- props to you, DH, you know who you are :D ) teacher's problem. He had studied and been checked out of silver, but never had a chance to use it, since 90% of his students were at bronze I at the most. :?

[Taita]

My 2 cents....

I would tend to agree with Jonathon on this one when he says dance knowledge matters more than syllabus knowledge. I really wouldn't sweat it if my teacher didn't know an american rhythm pattern. For one thing, there must be a dozen different syllabus out there (If the teacher was certified in a particular sylabus, it may be a different story). For another, It has been my experience that knowledge of the Silver American Style syllabus does not always correlate to dancing ability. I used to take American Rhythm lessons with a great talented International Latin dancer. She was in the midst of an illustrious career and was enjoying great success as an international latin dancer. She won many titles and was in great demand as a performer and a coach. However, she didn't know the American Rhythm syllabus at the silver level.

Every so often, she would stop in the middle of our lesson to review the pattern with a fellow instructor because she didn't know the pattern herself! However, I never really felt worried because when she came back, she would know the pattern and would use it to illustrate basic technique. She would know the intricacies and be able to explain what made the pattern work and what were the key essential elements I needed to know in order to lead and dance it well. Later, we would revisit the pattern after I had it down cold and add her unique take on styling and even made it look different than other teachers teaching the same pattern :!: .

In contrast, I know of some very experienced teachers who knew the entirety of the same American style syllabus but couldn't dance a lick much less explain how they worked. Consequently this was reflected in their students. Yes, they could pass an exam, but they really didn't know how to dance. The irony was that lessons with both teachers cost the same! :shock:

In American style, I'm more prone to giving a good dancer a break when it comes to syllabus knowledge. I think I would need better reasons to do the same with International style.

Jenn, I really wouldn't sweat it if you have confidence in your teacher's dance ability and knowledge. If you don't, then that may be a different story altogether.

....back to lurk mode....

[pygmalion]

That particular teacher was a street dancer who came to ballroom later in life, and I can honestly say he taught me more about dancing with spirit and animation than any teacher I've had before or since. His knowledge of a syllabus wasn't why I studied with him. He taught me to let my inner spirit loose on the dance floor, and that'a lot more valuable than patterns to me. 8)

[Spitfire]

This raises a question for those more in the know...

Isn't it common practice in the studios for a teacher to go through certification tests in order to teach at the next highest level?

The question may seem silly, but I am just not familiar with the advancement process for instructors. :?

[pygmalion]

Oh ho ho. Can you say,"can of worms?" :wink: :? I suspect the answer differs from studio to studio, but let's see what others say.

[KevinL]

Teachers / instructors need to be on top of what students they have and what levels they need to be at to instruct those students. If they are not, they should either be constantly upgrading their skills or consider transferring their students to another teacher once they get to that level.

Teachers need to be constantly upgrading their skills, regardless of the teachers level.

Regarding the need to know silver level steps/patterns/technigue, it is not important in my teaching life presently. None of my students are there yet, and no-one locally dances at that level socially, so why would i spend my time there when I can be conslidating and focusing on what people actually want to learn? (Even if someone were to get to Silver, I would send them to the local competative coach anyway.) I bought the DanceVision Smooth Silver syllabus and videos, but have yet to make use of them. Perhaps in the future...

Kevin

[pygmalion]

Bear in mind when I say this, that I've become very cynical. But my view is that many studios out there find new step patterns easier to sell than good, solid technique. Social dance students might be best served by learning bronze level patterns together with good technique and partnering skills. But many dance students don't care enough about technique to buy more lessons and learn it. So they're encouraged to learn silver step patterns, and, of course, buy more lessons in the process. The irony is, of course, that without solid bronze technique, executing the silver patterns well becomes nigh unto impossible. :?

[Taita]

Social dance students might be best served by learning bronze level patterns together with good technique and partnering skills.

You may be surprised at the number of professionals that have trouble with this. Certainly wise advice for anyone :wink: . As far as an emphasis on steps. I can agree to a point. I am very blessed to be able to learn from some of the most talented coaches in the world who are more than happy to be teaching technique. However, I see two issues at play in the social studio world. One, the lack of talented dance instructors. Unfortunately, there are teachers who are just barely qualified to be teaching at all. To these teachers, they simply can't teach technique they themselves don't know.

The other side of this is the dancers themselves. Most people when they learn to dance, think of dancing as a series of patterns that you memorize. And then they start 'dancing' when they meet someone else who knows the same steps. A few people break out of this and begin to comprehend what they are doing and even fewer decide to focus on technique. While it is great for those that 'swallow the red pill' (think Matrix people :P ), it does create a situation where the studios are fulfilling a market need. I can only assume concientious(sp) studio owners are faced with a dilemma, do they cater to the needs of their customers? or do they insist on quality over quantity. Unfortunately, they need to make a living too and good technique doesn't sell well to people who believe patterns are the most important element to dancing.

To a point, I think a cynical attitude is justfied. However, I would also realize that the students have a role in this too.

...back to lurk mode....

[msc]

I agree wholeheartedly with Taita.

[dancin_feet]

Teachers / instructors need to be on top of what students they have and what levels they need to be at to instruct those students. If they are not, they should either be constantly upgrading their skills or consider transferring their students to another teacher once they get to that level.

Teachers need to be constantly upgrading their skills, regardless of the teachers level.

Regarding the need to know silver level steps/patterns/technigue, it is not important in my teaching life presently. None of my students are there yet, and no-one locally dances at that level socially, so why would i spend my time there when I can be conslidating and focusing on what people actually want to learn? (Even if someone were to get to Silver, I would send them to the local competative coach anyway.) I bought the DanceVision Smooth Silver syllabus and videos, but have yet to make use of them. Perhaps in the future...

Kevin

That's exactly what I'm saying Kevin. Once a student gets to a certain level, and the teacher knows they are not up to teaching at that level, they need to either make sure their skills are upgraded, or pass the student onto someone else. Not learn how to teach at the same time as teaching that level. I have been in this situation and it doesn't lend itself to the student having confidence in the teacher.

[SDsalsaguy]

I agree wholeheartedly with Taita.
Likewise!

Excelent analysis Taita!

[samba ajr]

There's a new instructor at my studio who has been teaching new students and that's ok. He tells me when he was in training, he was taught the bronze, silver and gold syllabus all at the same time! Funny, I'm still working on full bronze level (as a student) and very often, he asks me how to do steps, even in a few newcomer groups, I nearly ended up teaching.

I actually think it has a lot to do with confidence. This gentleman may actually know steps, but lacks confidence. When he dances with me at practices, he rarely if ever goes above the first 3 steps of a dance. Except hustle--he's great at that--was a street dancer apparently back in the day. I'm proud to say I can follow his hustle moves, in waltz, cha cha, nearly every dance he's apt to throw something in.

I knew of one new instructor that had confidence (and charm) to spare. He could make a box step feel like you were dancing gold! A bit of natural talent also helps.

[pygmalion]

Hi samba ajr. Yes, one of my former teachers was like that, too. He was a jazz/modern/hip hop dancer, and when he got into the ballroom world, his confidence was low for a long time.

As far as learning bronze, silver and gold at the same time, I could be sorely mistaken here, but I think it is possible to memorize all the step patterns in a short period of time. But the technique takes longer to develop. Do you agree? *shrug*

[KevinL]

That's exactly what I'm saying Kevin. Once a student gets to a certain level, and the teacher knows they are not up to teaching at that level, they need to either make sure their skills are upgraded, or pass the student onto someone else. Not learn how to teach at the same time as teaching that level. I have been in this situation and it doesn't lend itself to the student having confidence in the teacher.

The way different people respond to technigue versus patterns is really kind of interesting. Last year I had a group of about eight students who progressed through the DanceVision Bronze Smooth syllabus that I teach. At the end they tried to convince me to start teaching Silver patterns even though most of them couldn't actively remember most of the Bronze patterns. To say nothing about dancing those patterns with proper technique! I did buy the Silver tapes and syllabus, but decided to focus on teaching what I know, and ensuring a steady stream of new dancers.

Then, last night, I had another couple finish the full bronze syllabus. Thier first response was, "Great, now we can repeat the series so that we can remember everything!" A totally different point of view, and one that I completely support.

However, one of the previous students (that cohort hasn't taken any other classes with me, and we have become friends socially since they finished with me) was also there and again she suggested doing Silver patterns, and even using that cohort as quniea pigs. It's an idea, but I'm not sure that learning from tapes while trying to teach would be an effective way to go. I would like to live in an area where there are competent American Style coaches nearby. I'm going to have to start travelling, I think.

Kevin

[tasche]

Is is common for people to learn the steps in sequence as I have founfd tht has not been my experience. In a samba group class that I too which was broken down into two 5 week sections we were taught the basic at first then had some silver and gold steps thrown in (the ones that aren't as hard as they would seem) I take privates from this instructor too and this is how he teaches individuals too mainly introducing steps that work well with that students style and ability, though it kind of gets boring when you have to go back down an learn a totally bronze routine :lol: but I dont mind

[pygmalion]

Hmm. I've never experienced that, tasche. All the dance teachers I've had previously were very level conscious. My most recent coach was very fond of reminding me that I belonged at bronze, technique-wise.

The coaches I have now are encouraging me to move on to better technique at the silver level. Nobody's teaching me gold anything. And that's probably a good thing. :oops: :lol:

[Taita]

I agree wholeheartedly with Taita.


Likewise!

Excelent analysis Taita!

:notworth: Thanks Guys! :notworth:

[samba ajr]

but I think it is possible to memorize all the step patterns in a short period of time. But the technique takes longer to develop. Do you agree? *shrug*

Absolutely. I think you need to put in the time at a level, developing technique for the basic steps for that level before moving on.

I have had silver and gold steps (with the accompanying technique) thrown into open routines. If it's something that's clearly over my head, my instructor will wisely and quietly drop it, till later!

[pygmalion]

Yeah. Instructor discretion is very important. At my first studio, the teachers used to insert silver and gold steps into formation routines, to give you a "preview" of things to come (and get you to buy more lessons LOL :twisted: :roll: ) Sometimes it worked, if the patterns weren't too complex. Sometimes, it was a disaster. Think beginning bronze students learning a ballroom tango pattern called doble cruz, complete with rondes, quick changes of direction, complicated leads, and some hooks. Eek! Watching the video still embarrasses me.

[dancer21]

I am new to this "chat forum", however, it is like a train wreck that it intrigues me, and sucks me in. Much like the cover page of the naitonal "enquistor" in the supermarket check out aisle.

My first thought would be, "there seem to be many EXPERTS in the ballroom dance industry in this forum. Many, many opinions. (Thank God and our forefathers for the 1st Amendment!)

But since I am here, sucked in by this "train wreck" as it were, I am compelled to post input.

"Is it important for a teacher to know "the" silver syllabus?"

The first question that begs to be asked would be which silver syllabus? I can think of as few as five that are currently recognized and accepted by the NDCA.
And one ( a major franchise chain ) that was in question at last I checked.

Dance a box step in Rumba with "social technique", then Bronze technique, then Silver technique, and yes even Gold technique and tell where there is a difference. The footwork is no different. The posture is no different. The size of the step is no different. The lead is no different.

What is different is the amount of time the dancer has "typically" spent practicing, rehearsing, and dancing the figure.

Now appropriate to the "skill set" of each level (also determined differently by each syllabi) you may experience a rapid introduction to a more flambouyant set of amalgamations or a more basic approach.

A serious student, interested in a serious education in dance should do their research wisely and determine what it is they wish to gain from their dancing. Few "socially" inclined students go onto their Silver. They come in to learn a specific style, type of dance, or learn for a function and generally finish there. I would say that any student that invests more than 20 or 30 private lessons sees this as either a hobby or a sport.

If it is sport and if the instructor is inept or unable to teach a student at "any" level they will ultimately lose that student to someone more qualified. If it is for a hobby I believe the typical student is more inclined to dance with the intstructor that best suits their personality regardless of the teacher's own qualifications.

[pygmalion]

Hi dancer21. Welcome to our train wreck! :D 8)

Yup. This is an open opinion/discussion forum. And I'm glad you're contributing your opinion, too.

This forum has dancers from all walks of life -- newbies, social dancers, competitive dancers, dance teachers, and some high level competitors and judges as members, so, if the topic is interesting enough, you'll generally get a pretty good overview.

I'll leave some of your other (very interesting 8)) comments for further discussion. Maybe someone else would like to comment. Thoughts, anyone?

Welcome to the forums, dancer21. :D

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and I left out members from lots of different dance backgrounds and from all over the world. Good stuff. :)

There are a couple older threads that may interest you. I'll find them and link to them when I get back to my computer later today.

Competitive vs. Social Dancing (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=709)

Franchise Experiences (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=482)

Why Does Ballroom Dance Have different Versions? (http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=951)

I'll create hot links later. In the meantime, have fun. :D Edit The links are in there now. 8) :wink:

Jenn

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. While this is an opinion forum, the moderators try very hard to make sure that no misinformation is spread, and that we keep clear the difference between opinions and facts. Not always easy, I admit. Most of our really popular threads/conversations involve everybody giving their opinion, with no judgments of right or wrong. (And those are way cool conversations. Most of the time, people end up coming to a group consensus. It's fun to watch. 8) )

But fairly often, questions will come up that do have right or wrong answers, and when those questions arise, we do the research to verify that correct information is being shared as much as possible. That's what we're here for. :D

[msc]

Dance a box step in Rumba with "social technique", then Bronze technique, then Silver technique, and yes even Gold technique and tell where there is a difference. The footwork is no different. The posture is no different. The size of the step is no different. The lead is no different.


I'm afraid I can't agree with any of these statements.

[SDsalsaguy]

Dance a box step in Rumba with "social technique", then Bronze technique, then Silver technique, and yes even Gold technique and tell where there is a difference. The footwork is no different. The posture is no different. The size of the step is no different. The lead is no different.


I'm afraid I can't agree with any of these statements.
I have to agree with msc on this one...what makes great dancers great is how they dance...far, far more than what they dance!

[pygmalion]

I was hoping someone would expand on this, msc, and talk about the technical demands at each level. My perception is that the technique and styling are pretty dramatically different, and successively more difficult as one reaches higher levels. But that's just my perception. Can anyone out there clarify for us? I've only done social, bronze, and some silver, so I'm not in the position to give a good overview. I'm sure someone out there (in lurk mode? LOL) can.

[Larinda McRaven]

I actually agree with Dancer21...

The actual technique I use when dancing a box embedded in a bunch of bronze patterns doesn't change when I dance a box embedded in a bunch of gold patterns. But it does change when someone else dances them. The technique itself is not level specific. The ability of the dancer is.

As you look at a syllabus and technique book, the technique information does not change as the patterns get more difficult. There is just as much information in the ISTD book on a natural turn as there is for a rumba cross. The amount of technique a teacher decides to impart to a broze student may be less than what he or she would discuss with a gold student. But the actual technique is still all there, whether it is understood or executed.

[SDsalsaguy]

Point well taken Larinda. In theory there is only one technique... I think what msc was commenting on (and hence what I was agreeing with) was a difference in application/execution, i.e. when a bronze dancer dances a basic there is a lot less technique than when I see the same figure danced by an advanced dancer... but not, as you point out, becuase the technique is fundamentally differnt

[msc]

In theory, I agree with Larinda. There's no doubt that ultimately, the same techniques and principles should be applied to all steps, reagardless of level. I would even argue that the techniques and principles, together with well timed body actions, actually create the steps and moves listed in the various manuals.

Nonetheless, if one speaks of typical "Social" technique, "Bronze" technique, etc., then I'd have to say the skill with which various moves are executed improves (hopefully) as one progresses up the Bronze/Silver/Gold/Open ladder. Although, in my experience, as I've learned more and more technique, I've found there are some rather bracing chutes along that path as well.

[dancer21]

i would venture to say it is easier to separate from level to level in the american ballroom dances with the development of "continuity styling" or open footwork as there is a dramatic difference in technical execution necessary compared to something that does not change so radically as a box basic in the Rumba.

this technique although introduced in some Bronze syllabi and moreover in a far greater number of silver syllabi definetly requires a much higher level of execution. And it is because of this that it would be nice for an instructor to be atleast skilled to this level, to respond more directly to the original question.

[pygmalion]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it's also pertinent here. In a coaching session once, I had the coach tell my teacher that, "the student should never get ahead of the teacher." I think that a danger in teachers knowing only lower level patterns and technique, is that they may not be far enough ahead of their students to have a high level overview. Without that overview, teachers may not be effective in preparing students to move beyond them, if the students want to at some point.

[pygmalion]

A serious student, interested in a serious education in dance should do their research wisely and determine what it is they wish to gain from their dancing. Few "socially" inclined students go onto their Silver. They come in to learn a specific style, type of dance, or learn for a function and generally finish there. I would say that any student that invests more than 20 or 30 private lessons sees this as either a hobby or a sport.



I don't know about this, dancer21. I suggested you read the franchise experiences thread because of this statement. You've had a great dance experience, it seems, but some people like me, who started at a franchise studio, had a totally different experience. I know a hundred people, at least, who are well into the silver or gold syllabus doing "social" technique and styling. The vast majority of them are totally oblivious to the fact that what they're learning is social dance, not dancesport. And many of them are really better suited to dancesport, IMHO, given the drive, motivation, and pursuit of excellence I've seen. These people just don't know what's out there. And because of the way their dance studios are structured, they'll never find out that they're not on track for dancesport, unless they make an extraordinary effort to find out, as I did.

Yet these people are all dancing "silver" and above. Eeek.

[tasche]

I think the way I feel about it is if the instructor doesn't know anything above bronze meaning not necessarily be actively teaching but know it through having learnt/danced it in the past. If they dont then for my purposes they dont know enough to teach me regardless of my level

[pygmalion]

Good point, tasche. Knowing silver and teaching silver aren't the same thing. I agree that the teacher must be far beyond me in order to be able to teach me effectively.

btw -- to me, this doesn't necessarily translate into levels. I've had teachers who were below my level in terms of ballroom, who taught me stuff like spins ( a former ballerina), isoltaion (a hip hop guy), lead/follow ( a C&W lady), and more.

But I feel more comfortable if my teacher is well beyond my level of ability, in whatever it is they're trying to teach me.

[dancer21]

"These people just don't know what's out there. And because of the way their dance studios are structured, they'll never find out that they're not on track for dancesport, unless they make an extraordinary effort to find out, as I did. "

pygmalion, I being a student/teacher/supervisor/dance director/manager/ and finally owner in the franchise system speak directly from my personal experience as well as from my experience of teaching tens of thousands of lessons (avg of 30 a week for 20 years) and the compiled experience of the results of my students.

If you are serious about how you spend/invest your money you will do the basic research to find the right teacher/studio for you as a student. There are far too many resources today, this forum for one, for that very purpose. When I make an investment in something of importance to me I tend to do the research. I have found most people would rather have someone hand them the information and take it at face value than to challenge the difference. That being the case, most arent that interested initially to do the homework. Which brings me back to how most students happen into a studio, mostly on a lark that it might be fun to know how to dance better, not ever really thinking about a medal program or the amount of time and money that they would like to invest. Let alone know the difference between a qualified silver instructor versus the instructor that can teach them how to enjoy themselves more, in partnership, to music.

my final conclusion on this topic, an instructor does not necessarily need to be ceritfied in as a silver teacher with some arbitrary standard to teach someone how to better enjoy themselves and their partners to music.

[pygmalion]

True. Students ultimately have the responsibility to do the research and to decide how they're going to spend their money.


I agree. Certification through silver or higher levels is not required to make one an adequate teacher, depending on the student's goals, and especially for social dance students.

[pygmalion]

Oh yeah, dancer21, I have to give you a public acknowledgement and some respect. From what I've heard (from a former coach who was trained there) Phoenix has some of the best franchise studios in the country, when you consider the quality of instruction, management of studios, straightforward business dealings, quality of coaching, competition caliber students and teachers. Phoenix is one great place to learn ballroom. 8) :D

[DanceMentor]

my final conclusion on this topic, an instructor does not necessarily need to be ceritfied in as a silver teacher with some arbitrary standard to teach someone how to better enjoy themselves and their partners to music.

It seems that by using the phrase "arbitrary standard", you are devaluing the syllabus itself. It is clear in my mind that a syllabus is not a requirement in order for someone to enjoy themselves, but to say a syllabus is an "arbitrary standard" goes against the purpose of the syllabus.

A teacher should have a lesson plan that allows for progression and improvement over time. A syllabus is an important tool in the teaching process. Keep in mind that a syllabus also includes the teaching of technique.

If your only goal is to train students for competitions and showcases, then maybe you will choose to only teach routines centered around DanceSport. This is quite common.

However, if the student wishes to aquire a "body of knowledge" about dancing, it is very important to use a syllabus (IMHO).

[dancer21]

Dance Mentor, I did not mean to imply that I place no importance on "a" syllabus.

My point is "which" or "whose" syllabus should we use. I believe somewhere in this thread ( i think that is what this is referred to... forgive me for my ignorance of the online chat vocabulary ) the separation of steps and technique per each level has been made. In my tenure with the dance industry I personally have seen 5 revisions in one franchise syllabus. Change is good. We must keep current and contemporary as our students have changed over this period as well.

However, I see little comparision to some of the NDCA recognized syllbi.
Making the actual patterns of one level, let's take Silver for example even remotely in the same context.

I am most in favor of creating good, basic dancing first, then creating the flair of exhibition type patterns/choreography second.

[DanceMentor]

Hi dancer21,

I see your point much better now. Thanks for explaining.

When it comes to International, I think the standards are very well esablished, but the American style is very unorganized, and there is clearly a diversity of standards. I'm pretty impressed with Dance Vision's syllabus. It seems to be gaining recognition. Unfortunately, I think there will not be a good standard for some time, because people are too involved with developing their own system which they believe will bring them more money. The result: there is nobody working together to create a standard for all.

So what syllabii are there?
ISTD, Fred Astaire, Arthur Murray, and Dance Vision
Am I missing any?

[pygmalion]

Don't many independent studios also have their own individualized syllabi, to avoid copyright infringement issues?

[Larinda McRaven]

So what syllabii are there?
ISTD, Fred Astaire, Arthur Murray, and Dance Vision
Am I missing any?
there is also the North American Dancesport Association (formerly NADTA) syllabus with videos narrated by Ricky Geiger. Which is generally confused with being the official NDCA syllabus.
Also Dance Educators of America, Dance Teachers Club of Boston, USTerpsichore, National Dance Teachers of America, and Pan American Teachers of Dancing.

Umm, Jenn, I think that independant studios are not intentionaly trying to avoid copyright issues. They could easily pay a small fee to the organizations to use their syllabus. The organizations then sends the studio papers and other accessories. They easily get more than what they pay for.

Lots of studio owners and independant teachers have grown up in the business using a syllabus that they found less than satisfactory and feel that they can make one up on their own, that they feel is better and is full of the patterns that they enjoy.

[dancer21]

DanceMentor,
Those are the "major" or most popularly considered. The NDCA for awhile had a recognized syllabus, however, I am not sure if they still have it or have thrown their hands in the air from frustration.

If I'm not mistaken, contacting the NDCA directly would be the best and most accurate way to answer your question.

I do believe there are loads of independents that have their own curriculum to do just as Jenn pointed out. Copy right infringement used to be a big deal when a former franchise teacher would break off and start an independent. However, those days have changed radically with the growing number of talented and creative individuals amongst the independent ranks.

I have heard great things about the DIVIDA curriculum myself and endeavoring to find out as much information as possible before investing the money, time, and effort of implanmentation, as to better train my staff to be "qualified" instructors in anyone's opinion.

[pygmalion]

there is also the NADTA syllabus with videos narrated by Ricky Geiger.

Umm, Jenn, I think that independant studios are not intentionaly trying to avoid copyright issues. They could easily pay a small fee to the organizations to use their syllabus. The organizations then sends the studio papers and other accessories. They easily get more than what they pay for.

Lots of studio owners and independant teachers have grown up in the business using a syllabus that they found less than satisfactory and feel that they can make one up on their own, that they feel is better and is full of the patterns that they enjoy.

Oh. Thanks, Larinda. That explains that. Hmm. :D

[KevinL]

I have heard great things about the DIVIDA curriculum myself and endeavoring to find out as much information as possible before investing the money, time, and effort of implanmentation, as to better train my staff to be "qualified" instructors in anyone's opinion.

I'm using the DVIDA syllabus, and I think it's great, but that may be mostly due to the fact that I have no other experience. I have heard other much-more-experienced dancers and teachers say great things, though, so I think the syllabus is very good.

As I understand the history of the DVIDA syllabus they started with the Dancevision tapes, and made the syllabus books based on the tapes. Then they went back and tightend the syllabus books to be more internally consistent, but still based on the tapes. It's very helpful to have the tapes and the syllabus match, and some of my students use both of those resources in addition to my group instruction.

My Level I classes tend to cover the first 4-5 patterns in the DVIDA syllabus. My Level II classes cover a mixture of the remaining patterns, with at least one "easier" pattern and one "challenging" pattern for each dance each month.

Kevin

[Spitfire]

I am new to this "chat forum", however, it is like a train wreck that it intrigues me, and sucks me in. Much like the cover page of the naitonal "enquistor" in the supermarket check out aisle.

My first thought would be, "there seem to be many EXPERTS in the ballroom dance industry in this forum. Many, many opinions. (Thank God and our forefathers for the 1st Amendment!)

But since I am here, sucked in by this "train wreck" as it were, I am compelled to post input.

"Is it important for a teacher to know "the" silver syllabus?"

The first question that begs to be asked would be which silver syllabus? I can think of as few as five that are currently recognized and accepted by the NDCA.
And one ( a major franchise chain ) that was in question at last I checked.

Dance a box step in Rumba with "social technique", then Bronze technique, then Silver technique, and yes even Gold technique and tell where there is a difference. The footwork is no different. The posture is no different. The size of the step is no different. The lead is no different.

What is different is the amount of time the dancer has "typically" spent practicing, rehearsing, and dancing the figure.

Now appropriate to the "skill set" of each level (also determined differently by each syllabi) you may experience a rapid introduction to a more flambouyant set of amalgamations or a more basic approach.

A serious student, interested in a serious education in dance should do their research wisely and determine what it is they wish to gain from their dancing. Few "socially" inclined students go onto their Silver. They come in to learn a specific style, type of dance, or learn for a function and generally finish there. I would say that any student that invests more than 20 or 30 private lessons sees this as either a hobby or a sport.

If it is sport and if the instructor is inept or unable to teach a student at "any" level they will ultimately lose that student to someone more qualified. If it is for a hobby I believe the typical student is more inclined to dance with the intstructor that best suits their personality regardless of the teacher's own qualifications.

I too, welcome you to the wreck dancer21; from just two hours down I-10. :D

[SDsalsaguy]

As I understand the history of the DVIDA syllabus they started with the Dancevision tapes, and made the syllabus books based on the tapes. Then they went back and tightend the syllabus books to be more internally consistent, but still based on the tapes.
Also worthy of note is that Diane Jarmolow was very involved in the syllabus design and in the teacher certification facets of DVIDA.

[dancer21]

Larinda,
Are you familiar with the actual step/patterns, how do those curriculum compare to the ISTD American or the DIVIDA?

I have yet to receive my information from DanceVision therefore I am not abreast of this particular curriculum. However, I do find the ISTD a bit too remedial for my studio...

Thanks

[KevinL]

As I understand the history of the DVIDA syllabus they started with the Dancevision tapes, and made the syllabus books based on the tapes. Then they went back and tightend the syllabus books to be more internally consistent, but still based on the tapes.
Also worthy of note is that Diane Jarmolow was very involved in the syllabus design and in the teacher certification facets of DVIDA.

Besides the fact that Diane is a dance goddess, and was my teacher in California, why do you think that having Diane involved was worthy of note?

[pygmalion]

I don't know what SD was referring to, Kevin, but wow! I ran across her bio on a web site the other day. totally impressive. I can see why you call her a goddess. 8)

[DanceMentor]

There is a bio for Diane here:
http://www.teachballroomdancing.com/diane.html

A few teachers from our studio went out there and took the course and they were very pleased. I've heard nothing but good things about her.
(but I wouldn't say I know enough about her to speak as an expert either)

[SDsalsaguy]

As I understand the history of the DVIDA syllabus they started with the Dancevision tapes, and made the syllabus books based on the tapes. Then they went back and tightend the syllabus books to be more internally consistent, but still based on the tapes.
Also worthy of note is that Diane Jarmolow was very involved in the syllabus design and in the teacher certification facets of DVIDA.

Besides the fact that Diane is a dance goddess, and was my teacher in California, why do you think that having Diane involved was worthy of note?
Because of the importance she places on actual understanding. I also know what a huge proponent of certification she is (especially for instructors). As you probably know from your teacher training with her, she expects people to really *know* their material... not just be able to "make a go of it."

I also spoke with her -- man, it's been almost three years ago already! :shock: -- about how & why she/they were setting up the DVIDA examination system as they were, and it made a lot of sense to me. So, as I figure it, if that same type of concern, forethought, and attention was involved in developing & fine-tuning the DVIDA syllabus, that's a fairly strong reccomendation in my book.

[KevinL]

Besides the fact that Diane Jarmolow is a dance goddess, and was my teacher in California, why do you think that having Diane involved was worthy of note?
Because of the importance she places on actual understanding. I also know what a huge proponent of certification she is (especially for instructors). As you probably know from your teacher training with her, she expects people to really *know* their material... not just be able to "make a go of it."

Yes, and her standards keep getting tougher! I would like to be taking her teacher training courses again, but the commute between California and Vermont would be a little excessive. I'm not even up for the weekend ones that she does in Las Vegas, although I'm sure they would be great.

I also spoke with her -- man, it's been almost three years ago already! :shock: -- about how & why she/they were setting up the DVIDA examination system as they were, and it made a lot of sense to me. So, as I figure it, if that same type of concern, forethought, and attention was involved in developing & fine-tuning the DVIDA syllabus, that's a fairly strong reccomendation in my book.

I agree. As I understand it, the DVIDA exam was once (and may still be) the only exam that asks for "leader's" part and "follower's" part, not "man's" and "woman's". It is also my understanding that some other exams did not require the male to dance both parts, but did require the females to dance both parts. DVIDA holds leader and follower (regardless of gender) to the same standard, and I think that is a very good thing.


Kevin

[SDsalsaguy]

I also spoke with her -- man, it's been almost three years ago already! :shock: -- about how & why she/they were setting up the DVIDA examination system as they were, and it made a lot of sense to me. So, as I figure it, if that same type of concern, forethought, and attention was involved in developing & fine-tuning the DVIDA syllabus, that's a fairly strong reccomendation in my book.

I agree. As I understand it, the DVIDA exam was once (and may still be) the only exam that asks for "leader's" part and "follower's" part, not "man's" and "woman's". It is also my understanding that some other exams did not require the male to dance both parts, but did require the females to dance both parts. DVIDA holds leader and follower (regardless of gender) to the same standard, and I think that is a very good thing.
Also, as I understand it, the DVIDA teacher certification exam is randomly generated from the test bank... thus avoiding differential focus and standards between differnt examiners, etc. (I know that this was the original design/intent... could someone please confirm if this is what is still being done?).

[dancer21]

"Also, as I understand it, the DVIDA teacher certification exam is randomly generated from the test bank... thus avoiding differential focus and standards between differnt examiners, etc. (I know that this was the original design/intent... could someone please confirm if this is what is still being done?)"

I am not sure what you mean by a "test bank". Could you elaborate?

[dancer21]

when i first started taking my professional exams in 1983 we gentlemen were not expected to be tested on our following but he ladies were expected to lead. that has since changed with those particular certifications.

hadnt thought about that for a long time... wow what a backwards world we live in, even today...

[SDsalsaguy]

"Also, as I understand it, the DVIDA teacher certification exam is randomly generated from the test bank... thus avoiding differential focus and standards between differnt examiners, etc. (I know that this was the original design/intent... could someone please confirm if this is what is still being done?)

I am not sure what you mean by a "test bank". Could you elaborate?
If this is as I understood it, there is a computerized bank of exam questions from which a random sample is generated for each exam.

[dancer21]

I am actually in contact with Wayne Eng this week regarding DIVIDA etc... I will have to ask him. It's a nice idea. However, because they do not allow you to take your exam with someone that has prepared you for the exam this in my mind makes the exam that much more credible.

The "bank test system" is one that is used with the Arizona Real Estate Exam. Because of the two types of law, Federal and State, I understand why that system is necessary. However, I have NEVER taken an exam as difficult in my life as the one I took for Real Estate. A bit over kill. And you dont have the opportunity or the benefit of a physical demonstration of your "book" knowledge of theory.

I have taken professional exams with Rufus Dustin, Cher Rutherford, Larry Brussard ( has since passed away ), Jim Peters, and Tommy Shaughnessy. All except the latter were during my ( and each individual's ) tenure with the Fred Astaire organization.

The hardest exam was with Dustin. Extremely thorough. However, that information has made the difference in my teacher and dancing and has made any exam since easier to prepare for.

[pygmalion]

Yes. My former coach got checked out by Rufus Dustin (I don't remember what level -- bronze, silver, goald, or dance director) From what I hear, Rufus Dustin is tough!

[dancer21]

correction... meant to say "made the difference in my teaching not teacher... must be early.... :lol:

[pygmalion]

It's funny. My old coach has all his FADS certificates framed and hanging on his studio walls. The one he points out, is the Rufus Dustin one. He's says that he had to work hardest for that one, and he's proudest of it.

This is only slightly related, but when I was out on the web recently, checking into some competitions, I noticed Rufus Dustin listed as a member of the panel of adjudicators for a particular comp. That made me start thinking about comp preparation over and above the technical stuff. How much attention do people pay to who's doing the judging, I wonder. Does that become a factor in what and how one prepares? Sorry. I know I digress.

[KevinL]

"Also, as I understand it, the DVIDA teacher certification exam is randomly generated from the test bank... thus avoiding differential focus and standards between differnt examiners, etc. (I know that this was the original design/intent... could someone please confirm if this is what is still being done?)

I am not sure what you mean by a "test bank". Could you elaborate?
If this is as I understood it, there is a computerized bank of exam questions from which a random sample is generated for each exam.

If you are interested in the DVIDA Certification exam, check out: http://www.prodvida.com/association/certification_exams/

There is a link on the page to a sample Junior Associate test.


50% of the test is the ability to dance all the patterns on the test in a routine, as leader and then as follower.

40% of the test is the theoretical portion, where you have to describe one of the 8 aspects of each step of a pattern as either leader or follower. However, while dancing through the pattern and describing it, you can only get full credit if you also demonstrate all the other technique properly. The questions are "easy" in that you know going in what they can be. But they are also "hard" in that you don't know which of the 16 possible questions will be asked about any specific pattern.

5% of the test is general teaching questions, like how to start classes to music, etc.

5% of the test is overall presentation. Basically if you look like a professional. (This seems to be the only part that is open to personal interpretation and bias.)

====

As someone else mentioned, you can't take a test with the person who prepared you.

Also since each exam is randomly generated, they are all equally difficult, and you can't really get an "easy" or "difficult" examiner. It makes everything much more standardized.

Kevin

[pygmalion]

:lol: :lol: Okay, okay, Kevin. I'll take the hint and start my own stinkin thread, if I want to talk about dance comps, etc. You're right to just stick to the actual topic of this thread. LOL.

[SDsalsaguy]

Also since each exam is randomly generated, they are all equally difficult, and you can't really get an "easy" or "difficult" examiner. It makes everything much more standardized.
Yes, this is exactly the element I had in mind! Thanks for confirming that Kevin!

[Larinda McRaven]

Larinda,
Are you familiar with the actual step/patterns, how do those curriculum compare to the ISTD American or the DIVIDA?

which syllabus are you asking about? I am rather familiar with almost all of them..

However, I do find the ISTD a bit too remedial for my studio...

This is the one I actually prefer, but am exrtemely biased here, considering my involvement with its creation. But in keeping with the tradition of the ISTD international syllabi, the American is made up of patterns that are considered elements, not amalgamations. Afterall in the internatonal gold waltz, (Left Whisk, Contra Check, Closed Wing, Turning Lock to Right, Fallaway Reverse & Slip Pivot, Hover Corte, Fallaway Whisk) the patterns are not more than 6 steps long, as opposd to eight measures.

I seem to think I remember reading here somewhere that you have a franchise background?... That being the case, I can understand your feeling that the USISTD is too simplistic.

[dancer21]

Larinda,

Let me be the first to thank you for clarificaton. It is true that I do have franchise experience and will be the first to admit I can become somewhat easlier bored with the simplicity of something so pure and be seduced by the more complex and complicated, all the while losing the point from the onset.

After 21 years with a franchise I am on a personal quest to find the meaning and identity I wish for my (now independent) studio to embody.

[pygmalion]

Hey dancer21. Hope you're still there (albeit in lurk mode. :wink: :D )

New DFers, any thoughts on the bronze/silver divide for teachers? :D

[Chris Stratton]

I think there are so many different things we ask teachers to do, that it might not be suprising if one person is not the right choice, or prepared for everything. Obviously the more well rounded someone is they more they can consider if there are other issues that should be a factor in what you are working on, but I really believe that a wide range of people can play a role.

Some hypothetical examples:

- We want to learn some waltz for our wedding

- Please teach me how to do a spin turn

- We just discovered we have to know international tango for the comp tomorrow. HELP!

- Can you help us fix the fallaway reverse and slip pivot?

- Please help us get a cleaner swing in the natural turn

- We want to learn the gold quickstep figures

- Can you coach us in how to just generally get more life in our dancing?

- Can you check our footwork on this?

- What do you think of this comp video?

- How are you as a marriage counselor?

- I had a bad day at work. I just want to enjoy dancing with someone who makes it feel good

So really, I don't think it's reasonable to expect one coach to be good for every need. My concern is more that the coach is actually able to help with the things they give the impression of being able to help with - and generally you figure that out after you work with them a few times anyway.

I guess this means that I don't have a problem with a coach who only has the bronze figures memorized, for certain purposes. And I wouldn't have a problem with someone who knows the full technique and characteristic figures of a style, but not the breadth of popular bronze patterns for it, either.

[Genesius Redux]

:lol: I went in for a lesson before my last headshot because I needed to feel good! :lol: