Official Salsa Rules and Moves?

[Canadian Guy]

I was surfing on the web looking for salsa stuff and came across this:

http://worldsalsafederation.com/WSF%20SALSA%20RULEBOOK%202003-2004.doc

I never realized that there were official rules for Salsa - I only though that Ballroom had official rules and moves and levels.

Anyways at the bottom of the document there are some official step lists.

Does someone know where I could find pictures or videos what these moves look like when danced. There seems to be a million different names for the same moves. I may even know some of them :wink:


From the web site:

BRONZE

1. Basic Movements 4. Cumbia Step (5th Position Breaks)
A. Forward and Back 5. Di Le Que No (Cross Body Lead)
B. Guapeo 6. Enchufa
2. Cucaracha 7. Coca Cola (Reverse Turn From CBL)
3. Under Arm Turns 8. Double Enchufa (Stop and Go)
A. Turn From Basic 9. Alternating Enchufa Turns
B. Turn From Open Break 10. Exhibela
C. Male Turn From Basic 11. Natural Top
D. Alternating Turns - Ladies First 12. Adios
E. Alternating Turns - Man First, Change Of Hands Behind The Back
SILVER

1. Alternative Basic a. Cuban Hook
2. Vacilala b. Male head loop
3. Vacilense c. Female head loop
4. Siete (7) 9. Basic Wrap Around
5. Numero Dos (shadow cumbias) 10. Setenta Complicado
6. Dedo 11. Reverse Top
7. Sombrero 12. Advanced Setenta
8. Setenta (70)

GOLD

1. The Tunnel 6. Alternating Side Runs And Breaks
2. Reverse Top and Swivels 7. Double Coca Cola with Sombreros
3. Advanced Wrap Around 8. Rolling In Arm Combination
4. La Capa 9. Around The World
5. Vuelta Por Detras

[peachexploration]

......I never realized that there were official rules for Salsa .......CG, these are the same steps used for Casino Rueda. You can use them in one-on-one salsa as well but as far as I know, this is specific to World Salsa Federation and not all Salsa. :D

Here are a few clips for Casino Rueda:
http://www.salsa-rueda.de/index_clip.php
http://www.harrylee.com/movies.html (The site has a very good basic routine to watch)
http://www.salsacasino.com/videos/index.html

[borikensalsero]

I'm not going to go much into detail, but anything that gets standardized as well as thrown into the mix of official rules loses its luster. Some people actually attempt to standardize a curriculum for salsa but fail and will fail, for there are too many people doing their own thing and there is really no one who can say my thing is better than your thing and I know more because I can do this and that.

Yes, groups and schools, organizations, etc, have their own Syllabus’, but by no means is there one global syllabus for salsa. But those whose rules you must follow to belong to a given organization or group. That said, the bronze, silver and gold “official rules” that you have mentioned are those for which the WSF has its members “live by”. Not you, me, nor the rest of salsa folks.

If you read about another organizations official rules for the Bronze, Silver, Gold level they will not match the WSFs. They will have some, omit some, and add some.

[Pacion]

I agree with peachexploration. These rules are unique to the WSF and Isacc Altman and his wife et al are trying to making them a standard.

To my knowledge, there is a lot of resistance to it partly due to the way he is doing it, his credentials ie why him/what makes him think he is the one to do it, the feeling amongst quite a few dancers that it is a street dance and by trying to codify it and give it a syllabus the way ballroom and latin dance has one, flys in the face of what salsa is supposed to be about ie. free and innovative.

You probably do know some of them either by different names or know the names but the move is different. WSF have videos (which you buy) that show this moves I believe. But, it all depends on what your motivation is.

Are you familiar with the name/technique of Eddie Torres, the New York On2 teacher? He has named a lot of his moves/shines (he has been in the scene for 25-30 years or so, depending on who you talk to or what you read) and a lot of teachers (both On1 and On2) I know have taken his example and adapted it to their needs. Eddie has instructional videos which you might be able to get your hands on.

[SDsalsaguy]

Ditto everything above.

And this: no respectable salsa dancer will tell you that there's *a* right way to dance salsa.

[DanceMentor]

We have certainly had our share of debates about standardization in Salsa, and I think the question you should ask is:

Should Salsa be a competition sport?

and also:

Can one syllabus govern the salsa community?

At least here at the Dance Forums, the majority of people seem to say "no" to both of these questions.

BUT...I think this debate may go on for at least a couple more years. Maybe there will be some additional organization in the salsa community as time progresses. If this happens, it will surely embrace diversity of styles.

[Canadian Guy]

I'm not going to go much into detail, but anything that gets standardized as well as thrown into the mix of official rules loses its luster. Some people actually attempt to standardize a curriculum for salsa but fail and will fail, for there are too many people doing their own thing and there is really no one who can say my thing is better than your thing and I know more because I can do this and that.


Sorry guys and girls, I just found the 6 page post about the World Salsa Federation Controversy. Did not realize the WSF was a private company. It sounded like some official body.

I do not want to get into the question of who should set the standard but rather do we need a standard or as I like to think, a common frame of reference for the Salsa community.

My frustration as a beginner is that there does not seem to be a common language/reference to describe the basic movements in Salsa.

From reading the WSF thread the impression I got was that because Salsa is a street dance you couldn’t put labels or define any movements in Salsa. I sense from the posts that there is a fear that if Salsa was ever defined or “standardized” it would stifle innovation and creative thinking.

I have to respectfully disagree with this point of view. Let me give you an example. I am communicating to you right now in a Standardized, well-defined language called English. Each word I write is defined in a common way in a rulebook called the Dictionary.

Does having each word defined in the Dictionary stifle innovation and creative ideas? I would have to answer no. Everyday new books are being published with new ideas, you can even look at the post from some members. Just read any of borikensalsero postings, they are filled with poetic imagery. Having to use a standardize communication tool has not stopped borikensalsero from expressing himself with his own style and soul. Also just look at what standardization or having a common frame of reference has accomplished…I am communicating with people tens of thousands of km (or miles if you are in US) away from me. That is an amazing accomplishment.

Does the existence of a Dictionary mean that a language is forever frozen in time? Again, I answer no. Everyday, people invent new words or phases that may or may not last but the fact that English is defined and standardized does not stop someone from adding to it. Old words sometimes take on new meaning as its usage and meaning to people changes over time. The Dictionary or rulebook provides the basic building blocks of English, what you do with those basic blocks is up to you.

So back to Salsa, I was reading another post called Your Favourite Salsa Moves and it was funny how because there was no common frame of reference, people had to put a paragraph to describe their move and no one was really sure if the move described was a move they think they knew. I think the only common move that was well defined was the CBL. Why can’t people agree on what a particular basic move looks like and give it a name. That way, I can say my favourite move is the Leaping Frog followed by the Swooping Crane (I made those names up BTW) :D .

Of course, there would be variants and different styling that each dancer could add or subtract from the basic movements but the major elements should be the same.

For beginners we need to know the basics before we can innovate and come up with our own styling and interpretations of the basics or even to create new movements. You need to learn how to walk before you can run. There needs to be a common base of knowledge that is agreed upon by the Salsa community. From this base, dancers can then build upon it to develop new movements, styling and add their own soul into it.

One way that innovation and evolution of a dance form comes about is by building on the successes of the past, not starting at the beginning every time you try something. Growth of new ideas grows exponentially when information about past successes and failures is shared across the whole community. This sharing of ideas can only happen when a common frame of reference and knowledge is established. Otherwise, it is very difficult to communicate your ideas across the community.

Just another view from a beginner. :?

[SDsalsaguy]

I understand where you're coming from CG... personally, however, I would say that just because we speak English, however well it may be defined yet still evolving, does not mean that English is in any way a better language than any other. Same to me with salsa. A set of names/steps/etc. can be most helpful in communicating, but in no way invalidates or supercedes any other.

Wish I had more time to finish responding, but have to run... :?

[Pacion]

My frustration as a beginner is that there does not seem to be a common language/reference to describe the basic movements in Salsa.

... it was funny how because there was no common frame of reference, people had to put a paragraph to describe their move and no one was really sure if the move described was a move they think they knew. I think the only common move that was well defined was the CBL.

... Why can’t people agree on what a particular basic move looks like and give it a name. That way, I can say my favourite move is the Leaping Frog followed by the Swooping Crane (I made those names up BTW) .

Canadian guy, I feel you. Dending on where I am, I am an "advanced" salsa dancer, a beginner or ... just simply amazing because the place I am visiting has never seen anything like that! I have taken classes with different people. One person taught a shine that I recognized from a previous life but called it differently. My brain and my feet fought for most of the class because it looked likethe shine in my previous life but did not sound like that particular shine, when the teacher called out the name. I was only able to overcome that when I tried to focus more on their feet rather than what I was hearing :oops: or I think I might even have given it a generic name like "my baby" just so that I could stop the internal fight. (I could not remember the name of the shine the first teacher gave it so that didn't help matters)

The thing is though, because it is a street dance, or people watch and then try and copy the moves when no one is looking, they don't know the name and then start teaching. How do you give a name to that move? When you have been dancing a bit longer, you will find that you are inspired on the dancefloor and of course, can repeat it after racking your brains. But, how do you name that? Then, if I am watching you, how do I then know what you have named it?

The problem is also, who is to do the naming and it is that word "agreement". From what I gather certain teachers have been naming their shines and turn patterns which is fine and former teachers have kept those names.

But, what if two teachers name their move, like you did, the Swooping Crane, yet it is three distinctively different moves? How do you tell two people that they have to change the name of the move to the something else?

I think a lot of the resistance and arguments against it is that you have to be disciplined and document what you just did. How many people want to take that approach? Again, who is the person/organization who should act as the repository of all that information?

[peachexploration]

Here are some DF Links you may be interested in:
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=23454&highlight=#23454
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=19497&highlight=#19497
http://www.dance-forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=357&highlight=#357

[pygmalion]

I have to respectfully disagree with this point of view. Let me give you an example. I am communicating to you right now in a Standardized, well-defined language called English. Each word I write is defined in a common way in a rulebook called the Dictionary.

Does having each word defined in the Dictionary stifle innovation and creative ideas? I would have to answer no. Everyday new books are being published with new ideas, you can even look at the post from some members. Just read any of borikensalsero postings, they are filled with poetic imagery. Having to use a standardize communication tool has not stopped borikensalsero from expressing himself with his own style and soul. Also just look at what standardization or having a common frame of reference has accomplished…I am communicating with people tens of thousands of km (or miles if you are in US) away from me. That is an amazing accomplishment.


Hey, ballroom girl strikes again. :oops: :lol: :lol: I think you have a point, CG, and that there already is a certain amount of common understanding within the various salsa communities. As you go out and dance at the clubs, etc, you'll see a lot of things in common between dancers. There is a common language, so to speak.

And, at least from my point of view, there would be no problem with standardization of salsa if rules and syllabi were used the way we use a dictionary -- as a snapshot of the language in time. Everybody knows to throw away, or at least stop using, the dictionaries they had in elementary school. That's why Websters publishes a new edition quite often (every year or two).

In my view, just my view, that's not how syllabi and rules are used. Instead, they're used to dictate what is taught in studios, what's acceptable on a competition floor, and more. And when that happens, sure, there's some room for evolution of the dance form. But I strongly suspect that the evolution is slowed dramatically by the rules and restrictions. It has to be. Check out the IDSF or USABDA (or anybody else's LOL) ballroom step lists, rule books and syllabi sometime. Those things are really restrictive.

So for me, the questions are what is to be gained by putting standardization in place? And does that benefit outweigh the cost in terms of free development of salsa as a culture and dance form? Hmm. I guess the answer depends on your perspective. *shrug*

[borikensalsero]

In my view, just my view, that's not how syllabi and rules are used. Instead, they're used to dictate what is taught in studios, what's acceptable on a competition floor, and more. And when that happens, sure, there's some room for evolution of the dance form. But I strongly suspect that the evolution is slowed dramatically by the rules and restrictions. It has to be. Check out the IDSF or USABDA (or anybody else's LOL) ballroom step lists, rule books and syllabi sometime. Those things are really restrictive.

I was about to to write something, in one of my lengthy manners and pygmalion summed it up rather nicely. Thank you!

What good is the dictionary/language if we must follow it as someone else tells us to follow it? What good would it be for me to have creative writing skills if I sat in class and my teacher told me that I must change my style because it doesn't follow correct grammatical rules. Sadly that is what syllabi causes, it causes egotistical individuals to limit what other people do. Example is religion, first there was one, but it limited what some wanted so there came another religion, then another and another. Now only those extreme fanatics claim their way is the right way, when we all know that my way is just as good as your way no matter how different and horrible you think it is. As opposed to a dictionary that is just words that can only be limited by someone’s thinking, rules for salsa, are just ways of doing something concrete as per some one thinks it should be done. Words don’t govern they only express meaning, rules govern hence limit meaning.

We already have basic moves that are the norm in just about everywhere. Aside from having difficulty dancing on different beats of the music a savvy salsero can dance Mambo with any salsera in just abut any part of the world. For we are all speaking the same language, even if our "slang" isn’t the same. That we speak different "slangs" doesn't not prevent us from communicating in the language English. But if I was to tell you how you must speak, write, etc, then our world would be limited by that which someone else says is the right way to speak and write. But then claim that you are free to do anything you want as long as you stay within my set of standards. Now, how creative can we really be then?

A dictionary is really nothing more than the meaning of given ideas, objects, facts, etc, aside from it not having any rules except the rules that we place on our thinking. The dictionary is like a person’s mind, except on paper. With it we can express what we want by molding it according to our thinking. A syllabi is a set of rules by which we must express ourselves given someone else’s ideas without regard of what we really want do to, or care to do it.

[Pacion]

Question: If you have very little "formal" dance training where you are used to dance notations, where/how can you acquire the knowledge to a) note the combinations/shines down so that you can remember/understand it and b) so that someone else can understand?

I remember when I was about 9/10 years old and had dreams of becoming a ballerina, having a number of books on dance/ballet. I saw a few pages of a choreographer's notation and it scared the life out me! Perhaps if I had had a dance teacher looking at it with me, it would have made sense?

Today, thanks to technology, you can video the combination/shines. But, if you haven't got a video or there is a problem with it, how for instance would you write down the sequence for something like the Cross Body Lead or a Suzy Q?

[borikensalsero]

Question: If you have very little "formal" dance training where you are used to dance notations, where/how can you acquire the knowledge to a) note the combinations/shines down so that you can remember/understand it and b) so that someone else can understand?

I remember when I was about 9/10 years old and had dreams of becoming a ballerina, having a number of books on dance/ballet. I saw a few pages of a choreographer's notation and it scared the life out me! Perhaps if I had had a dance teacher looking at it with me, it would have made sense?

Today, thanks to technology, you can video the combination/shines. But, if you haven't got a video or there is a problem with it, how for instance would you write down the sequence for something like the Cross Body Lead or a Suzy Q?

Wow, with luck... :mrgreen:
numbers are usually good, detailed yet simple enough to follow. I think if we can break down the move into what body is doing at any given step we can write anything down simple enough to follow. It is all dependant on how well we can communicate a thought or vision into paper. Which again leads us to limits within the mind. I think that I can pretty much explain the moves I make simple enough for the advanced, pro super duper star dancer to understand. :lol: :lol: I don't know about the newbies though.... they might just look at me weird.

[Pacion]

lol I actually feel like being wicked and doing a different thread on dance notation, just to see how different people would write down the CBL :lol:

[youngsta]

I just don't get it. Why are people so stuck on labels? How would having a 'standard' naming convention help learn more? You watch and you mimic. It's not like you're going to be calling out moves with your partner...you LEAD/FOLLOW!

[danceguy]

I dont think that would be wicked Pacion. In my 7 months of dancing I believe I've had 5 or 6 teachers for Salsa, all of which have taught me the CBL a different way. Same with the Salsa basic, the main idea is there but each teacher has a certain way they like to do it. I've noticed that I how I use any technique on the dance floor is a result of each influence I've had, plus my own flavor that comes from within me.

On that note - I rarely see people doing the big fancy CBL that many teachers have shown. I see it as a template...here is the foundation of the move at its root...but it must be adapted to whatever situation is needed when you are dancing. Out in the clubs, most Salseros I've seen only use one hand to move the lady and I have picked up a lot of my own style from watching how its done there. I typically only use a CBL to keep the lady out of harms way or to give another couple some space. If the floor is open, I'll do it slowly and gracefully...if its tight and crowded then I hardly move and keep the lady very close to me. And depending on her frame and size...some women like to be pushed gently, others require more force and will not move unless I actually use a little muscle.

Its getting to the point where I just do a CBL (or any move) as it feels right in each situation, thinking about it too much is not a good thing.

I must say though, one of my new favorite things to do is a catch the lady after she spins and let her roll right into my arm, and then gently sweep her the other way. It could be called a cross body lead, but I just see it as part of the dance and being there with my partner. :P