How often do girls learn to dance the man's steps?

[lily]

Hi Everyone!

I've been swing dancing in France for a few years now and I recently decided to start learning the man's steps. I was just curious to see what they have to do when they dance.

So I went to a beginner class and asked the teacher if I could attend but as a guy rather than a girl. He said that it'd be fine unless there were too many men. Fair enough, I thought. The girls were all very surprised but didn't seem to object. Some asked me if I was a teacher, others made jokes about what a funny looking man I was!

Then, the other day, I was talking to a friend about this and she told me that the school she used to go to didn't allow girls to learn the man's steps nor men to learn the girl's steps. I asked why and she said that the teacher thought that it wasn't 'natural'. I was really surprised but it made me start to think. It's true that when I go out dancing, the only rare times that I see 2 girls dancing together and even rarer times, 2 men, they are often teachers.

On the other hand, after reading many of the posts here, it seems that in the US it is a normal and every day thing to see girls or guys dancing together. Is this true? I'm really curious about this now!

Thanks!

[TemptressToo]

During my local social dances...many of the more advanced girls know both parts. They often dance with one another...mostly in fun. Myself, the only "men's steps" I know belong to the Tandem Charleston...you have to dance the guys steps in that one. As far as regular dancing goes...I'm not a good enough leader to even try. But I sure can follow. :)

[pygmalion]

Then, the other day, I was talking to a friend about this and she told me that the school she used to go to didn't allow girls to learn the man's steps nor men to learn the girl's steps. I asked why and she said that the teacher thought that it wasn't 'natural'. I was really surprised but it made me start to think. It's true that when I go out dancing, the only rare times that I see 2 girls dancing together and even rarer times, 2 men, they are often teachers.

:shock: Huh? Sounds like that teacher has a control issue, to me. Learning the opposite role, while not all that common in some places, is a great way, I think, to improve yourself as a dancer. Nothing unnatural there.

On the other hand, after reading many of the posts here, it seems that in the US it is a normal and every day thing to see girls or guys dancing together. Is this true? I'm really curious about this now!

Thanks! Nope. It's not all that usual in partner dancing. A lot of girls will go out to nightclubs and dance nightclub freestyle together in couples or groups. But it's not common, at least in my circles, to see ordinary people out partner dancing with members of the same sex. The common exceptions that I know of are dance teachers and dancers at gay or lesbian nightclubs (obviously :wink: :D )

[pygmalion]

I left out conscientious dance students. A lot of those will try the opposite role on occasion. And you'll see this most often at dancer's venues. I mean, ballroom dances or swing dances that cater to serious dancers. But just dancing out in a club, most ordinary non-dancer Americans are too homophobic to dance partner dances with someone of the same sex. They don't want to look gay. I think it's a cultural thing. :roll: *shrug*

[Sagitta]

I see girls dancing with girls for salsa a lot, often either because their aren't enough leaders or one is teaching the other to dance. I do see a couple guys dancing salsa with each other, almost every night, and these are straight guys, just having some fun.

And I do the follows part as I want to know both leader and follow roles.

[Vince A]

More girls dance together than do the guys . . . however, it is very normal to do it! I do!

Any follower worth her weight should learn to somewhat lead, at a minimum to understand what the leader has to go through, and any good leader should be able to somewhat follow. Unless you teach or intend to teach, you don't have to be an expert on the other part.

[jon]

But it's not common, at least in my circles, to see ordinary people out partner dancing with members of the same sex. The common exceptions that I know of are dance teachers and dancers at gay or lesbian nightclubs (obviously :wink: :D )

Depends on how you define "common" I suppose, but there are a significant number of women in the swing dance world(s) who do both roles, and my impression is that the proportion is increasing over time. A few men too, but not many compared to the women.

Not to mention the periodic flaming over whether people should be allowed to dance non-default-gender roles in WCS Jack & Jill contests. As with other contentious gender issues like women in front-line combat or gay marriage, it will certainly be accepted eventually, it's just a question of how long.

[Adwiz]

We take it for granted that women learn the men's part, because it makes them more flexible dancers. Knowing both the man's and lady's part means they can quickly take up the role of leader, which is required quite a lot because there are more women than men involved in pretty well all the partner dances that I know of.

We have a few cases where a dance partnership will take group lessons over with their roles reversed. This allows them to see what the other person has to do, making them more effective in their own role as leader or follower. In one of my studios, a well-known couple who are active in the competition circuit began to do that, and it has been funny seeing the otherwise confident dancers look like beginners, stumbling and making mistakes with pretty basic steps. I'll be there myself one day, because I know it's important to be a well rounded dancerr.

[Sarah]

I'll frequently join in our group classes as a leader, as there are usually more followers than leaders. I'll also dance with my girlfriends out on the town. It's not at all uncommon here.

Cheers
Sarah

[dancin_feet]

While it is not openly encouraged at my studio until you get to the higher levels, you can learn the opposite part if you like. I have had a couple of group lessons where I am completely on top of the girl's part and have joined in for the boy's part. Helps me to understand what the lead is, and how to follow it better.

[pygmalion]

Let me point out one more time that this is an audience likely to skew the results. Almost everybody here is a hardcore dancer. Of course we learn the opposite parts. Non-hardcore dancers, not so much, I'll wager. :wink:

[jon]

Let me point out one more time that this is an audience likely to skew the results. Almost everybody here is a hardcore dancer. Of course we learn the opposite parts. Non-hardcore dancers, not so much, I'll wager. :wink:

I don't think my answer had anything to do with how hardcore a dancer I am, or whether or not I've learned the opposite role, because the question wasn't about individuals.

The fact is that if you go to a WCS or Lindy dance in this part of the US, you are pretty likely to see women dancing together on a number of occasions during the evening, and you might see guys dancing together a few times, too. If you go to a ballroom dance, it's much less likely. I don't know about other partner dance forms, but as the question was phrased by someone identifying as a swing dancer, that seems the most relevant observation.

[pygmalion]

Yup. Swing does seem to be a somewhat different world, even in the outback of Florida, although what I thought I heard lily asking was about dancing in general in the US, not just swing. Maybe I misunderstood. *shrug*

[lily]

Yes, I was talking about swing dancing as that is the dance I do the most often, but it's very interesting to ask the same question about the other dances too.

I was talking to a dancer friend yesterday who told me that he recently saw a couple (man and woman) dancing but they were dancing the opposite roles. I guess that this could often happen on the dance floor and I wouldn't even notice as it's still a man and a woman dancing together. Perhaps swapping roles is more common over here than I realized!

Thanks for all your replies!

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

More girls dance together than do the guys . . .


Hmm... I think for most dances this is true, however, when it comes to salsa...


Any follower worth her weight should learn to somewhat lead, at a minimum to understand what the leader has to go through, and any good leader should be able to somewhat follow.

I totally agree with you Vince A. For both lead and follow it is a good learning experience. I do however believe it´s more important for the ladies. Guys often get criticised by their partners because of their lead. When the lady switches role, she realizes just how difficult leading really is. She then starts cutting a little bit of slack in her criticism against poor leads and starts valuing the good leads more. :lol:

I´ve tried the follow part on several ocasions and really enjoyed it. It seemed easier to pick up then the leading part. I was actually complimented on it. 8)

[Vince A]

I totally agree with you Vince A. For both lead and follow it is a good learning experience. I do however believe it´s more important for the ladies. Guys often get criticised by their partners because of their lead. When the lady switches role, she realizes just how difficult leading really is. She then starts cutting a little bit of slack in her criticism against poor leads and starts valuing the good leads more. :lol:
8)
You're brave . . . I didn't want to go there because it usually excites the followers to a mild frenzy.

Yes, the leaders do have a very tough job. My wife hates to lead.

Talking WCS here (I'm new at Salsa, so cannot make that distinction yet)-

Guys have to achieve the rhythm with the music, know the count, know the counts of the move (or at least know where the 1 and 6 counts are), lead and put the follow where he/she wants them, listen for breaks in the music so that you can "hit the brakes," be able to "think several moves ahead," and of course flirt and smile.

After the dance . . if she lays back and lights up a cigarette . . . you've done your job very well!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:

However . . . following is not all that easy. The hardest part for me was to learn not to coaster step and not anticipate the lead. Do I stop? . . . Do I go? . . . Can I spin? . . . Is that 3&4 or a 3, 4? . . . etc. I've been following for a longtime, and it is much more diffcult than leading.

I do not envy you followers . . .

And for you followers who want to learn to lead . . . I wouldn't do it until you are really proficient at your dance . . . so proficient that you no longer have to count, but feel the music. Just my 2(ents!

[KevinL]

Most partner dances began to develope at a time when men were the leaders and women did what they were told, but that is no longer the case. Men and women are much more equal regarding who is "in charge", although it still usually looks like the men are in charge.

If you look back over the posts in this thread you might notice something interesting. A lot of the ballroom people talked about the "man/boy part" and the "woman/girl" part even when they were talking about the opposite gender. Most of the swing dancers talked about "leaders" and "followers", and gender was secondary. Does changing the vocabulary change the view of what is acceptable?

Regarding same-gender couples, I think Pygmalion is correct, in the US it is uncommon at most (straight) social dance venues to see same-gender couples because people are worried about looking "gay". Swing dancers in general appear to be more evolved toward not worrying about this than other dancers, but it does seem to be changing even in the ballroom world. Dancevision's Certification exams no longer ask for "man's part" or "woman's part", but rather ask about "leader" and "follower". I hope that eventually the stigma toward same-gender couples goes away.

Related to that, there seems to be much less bias against woman-woman dances because there are almost always more women involved in dancing than men. It still attracts attention when two men dance together.

Regarding learning both sides, I'm strongly on the side of learning at least a little of the role that you are less likely to use so that you can better understand what your partner has to do to dance well. From the point of view of a teacher, it is vital to know both sides, even if you don't do the opposite role very often. This is more challanging (in my opinion) for men than for women becuase it is more culturally acceptable for women to dance together, and less acceptable for men to dance together. It is sometimes hard for me to find leaders who will dance with me who can challange me as a follower, but I'm working on it.

Kevin

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

However . . . following is not all that easy. The hardest part for me was to learn not to coaster step and not anticipate the lead. Do I stop? . . . Do I go? . . . Can I spin? . . . Is that 3&4 or a 3, 4? . . . etc. I've been following for a longtime, and it is much more diffcult than leading.

I do not envy you followers . . .


Generally speaking I believe the lead is more difficult than the follow. The main reason for this is the number of variables one has to control. The lead generally has more to think about which creates added obstacles in their learning path.

After a couple of months at the studio, I noticed that most girls in my class could dance fairly well with the more advanced guys. With the guys however, it was a totally different story. Not only did they have problems dancing with more advanced follows, they also had trouble dancing with ladies of their own level.

I would therefore conclude that it is easier and faster to become a good follow than a good lead. However, when we reach another level, i.e., the superior follow/lead level, I think it is the exact opposite. A superior follow is harder to achieve than a superior lead. When I look around on a typical salsa night, I see several superior leads but very few superior follows. To get from good to great is an extreme achievement for the follow, much more so than for the lead, IMO.

Regards,

[KevinL]

However . . . following is not all that easy. The hardest part for me was to learn not to coaster step and not anticipate the lead. Do I stop? . . . Do I go? . . . Can I spin? . . . Is that 3&4 or a 3, 4? . . . etc. I've been following for a longtime, and it is much more diffcult than leading.

I do not envy you followers . . .


Nor do I, I find following much more challanging than leading. That is partially because I don't do it that often, but also partially because I can't shut down my mind enough to stop planning ahead so that I can just dance at the moment

Generally speaking I believe the lead is more difficult than the follow. The main reason for this is the number of variables one has to control. The lead generally has more to think about which creates added obstacles in their learning path.

While I agree with this, and everything else you wrote, for me personally following is much more difficult than leading.

Kevin

[MapleLeaf Salsero]

Generally speaking I believe the lead is more difficult than the follow. The main reason for this is the number of variables one has to control. The lead generally has more to think about which creates added obstacles in their learning path.

While I agree with this, and everything else you wrote, for me personally following is much more difficult than leading.

Kevin

Yes Kevin. For me following is also more difficult. I believe it´s because I don´t practice that role as much. Anyway, it´s much more interesting doing the opposite role, gives you more adrenalin. 8)