Staying on beat

[sheepgotoheaven]

Hey swing dancers,
I have been learning to lead Lindy hop about once a week since September 2007. I have learned lots of moves and still manage to get off beat a majority of the time.

Does anyone have any suggestions/strategies to stay on beat and in tune with the music? I may be over counting in my head, I usually silently count 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 throughout the entire song. But then again I'm not sure.

Thanks,

[waltzgirl]

Welcome to DF!

I had the same problem in my first few months of dancing. I found that the part of my brain that thinks in words/numbers and the part of my brain that listens to music don't actually communicate very well! So when I first started dancing, I could start counting, then the focus on the words "one, two, etc." took over, and then I was counting them to my own rhythm, not the music. So I learned to let my body react to the beat without the intervention of my brain--tapping out the rhythm on the steering wheel to the radio (at stoplights!), tapping my toe to music, etc. (Story I've told here before: I learned to trust my body's reactions when my teacher pointed out one time that, simultaneously with telling him I couldn't hear the beat of a song, my head was nodding along to it perfectly in time.)

I can count now along with the music, but it was a skill I had to develop, to get those parts of the brain cooperating. :)

[Dancelf]

Does anyone have any suggestions/strategies to stay on beat and in tune with the music? I may be over counting in my head, I usually silently count 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 throughout the entire song. But then again I'm not sure.

Warning: westie disclaimer applies.

1) Always be listening to music, and trying to figure out where you are. Driving to work? Tuck in a CD or tune a local station and find the beat. Watching the game on TV? Listen to the band and find the beat. Listen to the commercial jingles and find the beat. Spend Christmas eve stalking the carolers and find the beat.

2) Once that starts to seem to easy, start shuffling your way into a random location of a song, and find the beat. As you get better, you'll require fewer and fewer notes to figure out what's going on.


14434 may also be helpful.

[Steve Pastor]

Hallelujah! Someone else wants to talk about being on the beat!

Sometimes, I want to just give it up, but I can't...talk about being on the beat that is.

Listening to music, and trying to find the beat is an OK place to start, but you have to get it into your body.

So, if you put some music on at home, you can practice doing all of your steps and patterns in time to the music. Start with simple stuff. Most people seem to do OK as long as they are doing basics. They lose it when they lead turns or turn themselves, or do more complex moves. Add the more complex moves slowly.

When you are out dancing, dedicate a song or two to simple, basic moves, and practice staying on the beat. If you have a partner who you think will work with you a bit, tell them what you want to work on for just a song or two.

And speaking of partners, don't forget that swing is a partner dance. If your partner doesn't stay on the beat as she does a turn, and comes out ahead or behind it, that's going to throw you off, too.
Once you become aware of this, you are going to realize that a lot of women aren't so good at staying on the beat, either.
Then it's a question of how do you handle it. Do you just go with what you get, or do you try to fix it. You'll be more popular if you just go along, but you'll eventually end up with better partners (defined as people who dance to the music) if you try, somehow, to fix it.

[sheepgotoheaven]

Hey guys, thanks for the advice! One question about a suggestion... Does dancing alone at home help? lol. I'm single, so I usually don't have someone around to practice with.

[chandra]

Yes! Absolutely! Practise at home alone AMAP (as much as possible).

[Vince A]

Luckily, we have a cushioned dance floor at home to practice on, but you don't need to go that far.

Practice the basic steps until they are just about in muscle memory.

I remember practicing a whole lot at home before I installed the dance floor . . . in the grocery store - holding on to the cart handle . . . in my office with the door closed . . . walking down the street . . . invent ways to get that basic footwork in . . .

Sometimes, it helps to have something to hold on to, so that you can work on your frame too . . . a refrigerator handle gives great connection!

[Steve Pastor]

If you want to get being with the music into your body, practice your stuff with music on as much as you can.
As far as practicing alone... yes, it helps. I have almost never had a regular practice partner. I can remember putting headphones on and dancing around the living room back in my early twenties when I was living with 2 other guys. (I hope both of them slept through the whole thing.) Your body becomes more comfortable with "unfamiliar" movements, such as being in time with a beat, for example, the more you do it.
Even now, I will step through things again and again if I am having trouble doing them.

The more you get your part down, the less brain power you will have to devote to your own movements, and you'll be able to pay more attention to the music (not just the beat, but lots of other things), your partner, and the people around you.

[sheepgotoheaven]

I've been looking through the forums but have been unable to find a "holy grail" of dance moves on the internet. Does anyone know of any good swing sites with lots of instruction videos? My memory is horrible and I often forget a lot of the moves taught to me in group lessons.

[kayak]

You might try DanceVision. I find patterns are hard to learn on video, but videos are great reminders of what I have learned in class. However, what I like from DanceVision are their practice cds. So you can get several swing specific cds for the car. I had a ton of trouble with rhythm at the beginning as well and even now have to correct myself when I am trying something that is new. So the listening in the car or shower suggestions worked great.

[LindyKeya]

What kind of swing are you learning?

try how2dance.com All free, although they don't say no to donations.
They've got Lindy, Balboa, WCS, and I thought they had Collegiate Shag, but I'm not seeing it now.

[d nice]

If you want instructional tapes and DVDs for Lindy there is no better place than savoystyle.com Don't let the name fool you, their dance store has instructionals from some of Lindy Hops best teachers and most recognized competitors of many different styles.

As to how to get the beat... honestly your best bet is to stop trying to count. Instead use a mnemonic... I like to call out, in rhythm, what I am doing, i.e. step, step, tri-ple step, step, step, tri-ple step. Each syllabul is a step and each step fits the music when lined up properly.

As to how to find out where the music is at any given time to match up the mnemonic, I use BOOM-Ta. If you listen to swing music (though it works of most modern music which is descended from jazz/blues) it has a heavy hit of the upright bass or bass drum on the odd beats (1,3,5,7) also known as the down beat, and a sharp beat from the high hat or ride cymbals on the even beats (2,4,6,8) also known as the up beat. The upbeat is where you would clap or snap your fingers.

If you say the word boom you find that it fits with the deep sound of the down beat and the ta aligns with the sharp sound of the up beat. To find it you may want to say boom quietly under your breath repeatedly until you here it "resonate" with the down beat. Then add ta to the end to verify that you are in the right place in the music.

Once you can do this (shouldn't take more than a handful of times before you can start doing it regularly and quickly) you can start your dancing on any down beat (boom), but when you start listening to the music beyond just the 2 beats of the down up cycle you'll hear how it cycles in fours and eights. Soon you'll be able to hear the beginning of a cycle of four and then the cycles of eight, that is the "1" that your teachers probably count you in on to begin your moves and patterns, and is generally considered the "ideal" place to start in Lindy Hop since it's eight beat cycle will match up so easily with the eight count swing out. The six count moves will cycle through and every 24 counts you'll be starting a new move on the one.

I know you've been dancing for awhile, and I wrote some of this as if you were completely new and had little to no knowledge of music and counts, but someone later without the knowledge you have will come across this and it'll hopefully answer some of their unasked questions.

As to dancing around to the music without a partner... YES! Do It! First any movement is better than none, and it will cement the process into your muscle memory as much as burn some new neural pathways.

However you really don't want to do it to just any music. Some music is less rhythmically driven than Swing music and will be much harder to hear. Others are so rhythmically simple that it will not force you to grow and adapt. IOW stick to the music you plan on dancing to.

[CALI DOLL]

As to how to get the beat... honestly your best bet is to stop trying to count. Instead use a mnemonic... I like to call out, in rhythm, what I am doing, i.e. step, step, tri-ple step, step, step, tri-ple step. Each syllabul is a step and each step fits the music when lined up properly.

As to how to find out where the music is at any given time to match up the mnemonic, I use BOOM-Ta. If you listen to swing music (though it works of most modern music which is descended from jazz/blues) it has a heavy hit of the upright bass or bass drum on the odd beats (1,3,5,7) also known as the down beat, and a sharp beat from the high hat or ride cymbals on the even beats (2,4,6,8) also known as the up beat. The upbeat is where you would clap or snap your fingers.

If you say the word boom you find that it fits with the deep sound of the down beat and the ta aligns with the sharp sound of the up beat. To find it you may want to say boom quietly under your breath repeatedly until you here it "resonate" with the down beat. Then add ta to the end to verify that you are in the right place in the music.

Once you can do this (shouldn't take more than a handful of times before you can start doing it regularly and quickly) you can start your dancing on any down beat (boom), but when you start listening to the music beyond just the 2 beats of the down up cycle you'll hear how it cycles in fours and eights. Soon you'll be able to hear the beginning of a cycle of four and then the cycles of eight, that is the "1" that your teachers probably count you in on to begin your moves and patterns, and is generally considered the "ideal" place to start in Lindy Hop since it's eight beat cycle will match up so easily with the eight count swing out. The six count moves will cycle through and every 24 counts you'll be starting a new move on the one.

I know you've been dancing for awhile, and I wrote some of this as if you were completely new and had little to no knowledge of music and counts, but someone later without the knowledge you have will come across this and it'll hopefully answer some of their unasked questions.

As to dancing around to the music without a partner... YES! Do It! First any movement is better than none, and it will cement the process into your muscle memory as much as burn some new neural pathways.

However you really don't want to do it to just any music. Some music is less rhythmically driven than Swing music and will be much harder to hear. Others are so rhythmically simple that it will not force you to grow and adapt. IOW stick to the music you plan on dancing to.

I found this very helpful! Thank you so much! I'd been struggling with finding the "1" beat since I started dancing WCS back in February of this year. I've gotten better at finding the "1", but sometimes I find myself struggling again. I have NO music training at all so I really appreciate this info.

[jennyisdancing]

I found this very helpful! Thank you so much! I'd been struggling with finding the "1" beat since I started dancing WCS back in February of this year. I've gotten better at finding the "1", but sometimes I find myself struggling again. I have NO music training at all so I really appreciate this info.

Hi Cali :)

I would recommend James Brown as really good music for practicing finding the "1". The emphasis on the downbeat (the "1") was one of his main musical trademarks. Listen to "Sex Machine" and you can clearly hear the bass strongly hit the "1", followed by the cymbal on "2" just as d nice described.
Plus many of James Brown's songs are a good tempo for WCS dance.

Just a warning though: once you always hear the "1", you will notice that the WCS patterns don't always begin on that count. That's because the song's rhythm is in "four" meaning the beat goes "one-two-three-four", or multiples of four, such as "one-two-three-four-five-six-seven-eight". But many WCS patterns, including the basic sugar push, use six beats of music (one-two-three&-four-five&-six). So mathematically, you can't always start and finish a pattern on the "1".

It gets especially complicated because WCS mixes patterns of various lengths, i.e. a six-count sugar push might be followed by an eight-count whip, then maybe a six-count side pass, then a ten-count turn pattern, etc. It made me crazy at first, but I try to not think about it anymore and just keep the rhythm. The leader has to worry about the counts a lot more than I do. ;)

Still, knowing where the "1" is, and feeling the structure of the song, is very useful for followers. It helps you get back on the beat if you lose it, and it helps you predict when the leader may change what he's doing, especially if he likes to hit the breaks in the song.

[CALI DOLL]

Jenny, that's very helpful. Thank you.

You know, ever since d nice's post, I've found it very easy to find the down beat and the up beat in various songs (I listen to music on my drive to/from work and all day long at work). I find myself not counting 8, but 4 beats instinctively when I listen for the beats in music. I'm not sure what that means, but it's what I do. Am I right in thinking that if I can count "1, 2, 3, 4" (or 'boom TA boom TA') in a song, that WCS can be danced to it? I mean, "1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4" is the same as "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8", right? LOL, sorry for sounding so elementary. I've also noticed that not all music has a "1, 2, 3, 4" beat...which, of course, I'd heard before, but I never really understood what it meant.

So, at my weekly lesson/party last night, I tried to count (4 count) while I danced and, of course, it screwed me up....LOL! As Jenny said, WCS patterns aren't all neatly packaged into 8 counts. So yeah, that's not gonna work. Also, I agree Jenny that knowing where the 1 beat is will help during breaks in music. Is it true that all song breaks will start on the 1? I would think that would be true. So, if I hit a break, I can just count in my head "1, 2, 3, 4...and 1" and be ready to go again on that "and 1". I think. LOL!

I have natural rhythm (like moving to the beat of music and snapping on the up beats of 2 and 4). I just never knew that's what I was doing. :D Learning about up/down beats, counts etc is very interesting to me. I'm hoping it'll help my WCS.

[Dancelf]

Am I right in thinking that if I can count "1, 2, 3, 4" (or 'boom TA boom TA') in a song, that WCS can be danced to it? I mean, "1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4" is the same as "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8", right?

Yes, WCS can be danced to it (though other dances may fit it better. Dancing swing when the music says tango is weird, but not wrong).

But two fours isn't quite the same as one eight. It doesn't effect the basics of the dance at all, but some of the musical expression later on changes a bit. Don't worry about it yet.

Also, I agree Jenny that knowing where the 1 beat is will help during breaks in music. Is it true that all song breaks will start on the 1?

No. It's a good bet, but it's not a sure thing.

[jennyisdancing]

Yes, WCS can be danced to it (though other dances may fit it better. Dancing swing when the music says tango is weird, but not wrong).

But two fours isn't quite the same as one eight. It doesn't effect the basics of the dance at all, but some of the musical expression later on changes a bit. Don't worry about it yet.



No. It's a good bet, but it's not a sure thing.

Agreed. Especially a lot of traditional WCS songs (i.e. blues) do start a break on the 1, but not all. It's good to spend time listening to different kinds of songs and eventually you can predict where the breaks will be. However, note that a break doesn't always take exactly four counts. Sometimes they take eight counts, two counts, or something else. You'll eventually get a feel for that, and in the meantime you can always just follow your leader's cues.

To expand on dancelf's point, most WCS songs are in what is called 4/4 time, meaning you count 1-2-3-4 and you will hear that rhythm repeated. In many cases, as you said Cali, you could also count to eight (because it's a multiple of four), but not always. That's because there is rhythm and there is phrasing.

The rhythm is the 1-2-3-4 and the phrasing is how many blocks of four are joined together for a musical idea or melody line or verse. Some songs will join together two blocks of four (making eight counts), some songs will tend to join four blocks of four (making sixteen counts), and so on.

After enough listening and dancing, you'll eventually feel the phrasing without any counting. If you have a good leader who really knows his music, you'll see how he will arrange the dance to fit those phrases. And you can do the same, because you'll be able to see when and how to play and improvise in a way that really works with the song. So yeah, having musicality very much helps the dance.

You absolutely do have great rhythm already, Cali :)
It puts you way ahead of a lot of other folks who struggle with that. For me, the challenge has been the opposite - I know the music, but I have struggled to learn good following skills.

[Steve Pastor]

"traditional WCS songs (i.e. blues)"

It is questionable as to when people started dancing WCS to blues. Based on the entire history of the dance (starting in the very early 1950s as Western Swing in the Los Angeles area), I guess it depends on how you define "tradition".
The earliest recorded performance of what can truly be called West Coast Swing is in the 1958 film "Hot Rod Gang", to a rockabilly song by Gene Vincent - "Dance to the Bop". The song reached #23 on the pop charts that year.
http://www.sd455.com/moviehotrodgang.htm
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051741/to http://rcs.law.emory.edu/rcs/ss/04/ss4463.mp3
(Reports of WCS in earlier films are greatly exagerated. I keep looking, though.)
Note too, that WCS didn't go mainstream until the late 1960s, although it was taught all along in Southern California (as far as we know). (TangoTime, a poster these forums, and a long time dancer who was there, agrees with this -not taught on the East Coast- information.)
Take a look at the "Original music WSC was danced to" thread. The last few pages have nothing to do with music, though.
A bit off thread, but I've spent lots of time looking into this, and just have to share.

P.S. I've had people tell me that they couldn't dance WCS to blues, all of wheich isn;t slow! They found out otherwise.

[CALI DOLL]

Wow, so much info. Thanks Dancelf and my Jenny. :D ...and for the kind words, Jenny.

Phrasing, huh.... I've got a lot to learn, I see. I didn't even think about a break being less than 4 counts. ;-)

[d nice]

The dance called West Coast Swing is a modified form of Lindy Hop. Trying to date when it became a seperate form is impossible. There is no move in what is recognized as early WCS that did not exist in Lindy Hop, what distinguished the early WCS was the style and the restrictions that it created on the broader form of Lindy Hop (such as wlaking forward on 1,2 or the concept of the slot).

If you want to talk about original music it is going to be Swing, Blues or Rhythm and Blues. What was danced in studios is a completely different animal entirely, as is evidenced by any chain studio playbook which is envariably full of strict tempo pieces that are popular due to movies, being done or covered by popular musicians of the time or to that area, but often have no real relation to the music as it is being danced by those who invented the dance.

As to traditional, yes, blues is a traditional music form for West Coast Swing. Looking at the tapes of WCS performers you'll find an entire period where Blues was the predominant form chosen. This in no way is intended to say that it was ever only danced to Blues. Any claims of such exclusivity demonstrates a woeful lack of swing dance history.

You should pretty much always be able to count WCS music in 8's though that is a dancers way to think about the 4/4 time music that is the most popular time signature these days for WCS. Counting fours is really better and more accurate (and is how the musicians tend to count it out... though if you are ready what you really want is to just ingrain the down and upbeats in your head and body... ESPECIALLY if you are a WCS follower.

If you can think about all your movement as a serious of two beat movements rather than six or eight count patterns you'll open up a whole new world of styling and improvisation without ever getting "off".

[CALI DOLL]

If you can think about all your movement as a serious of two beat movements rather than six or eight count patterns you'll open up a whole new world of styling and improvisation without ever getting "off".

My next goal. :D

ETA: You know, this really works (while dancing in my apartment alone). haha! At a later time, I'll advise on how well it works for me on the dance floor. I'm just saying "BOOM ta" or "BOOMBOOM ta" (on beat with the music) in my head instead of counting. It seems you really, really need to have the basics in your muscle memory to do this effectively.

[Steve Pastor]

"As to traditional, yes, blues is a traditional music form for West Coast Swing. Looking at the tapes of WCS performers you'll find an entire period where Blues was the predominant form chosen."

What period are you writing about?
Can you give the titles of songs that were used?
Where can I see these "tapes"?

"If you want to talk about original music it is going to be Swing, Blues or Rhythm and Blues."
Yes, and Western Swing was the most popular music in the LA basin when the dance "Western Swing" was codified by Lauire Haile for the Arthur Murray Studios in Santa Monica. I agree with you that WCS is a subset if the larger Lindy set. Western Swing (the music) was popular in the LA Basin, and along the West Coast, because of the large number of people from Texas, Oklahoma, etc. as a result of immigration during the Depression and World War II.
The music known as Western Swing seems to be the forgotten chapter in the history of swing.

Did Murray use Westen Swing music during their lessons in the first half of the 50s? Or what? Beats me. We do know that Skippy Blair tells us that by 1958 "nothing Western" was popular in her corner of the LA Basin, Downey, when she took a suggestion from an newspaper editor to advertise the dance that had been known as "Western Swing" as "West Coast Swing". (One day I will see if I can find that ad.)
I find it very interesting that rockabilly was pretty popular in 1958, and was used in "Hot Hod Gang" movie for a "dance rehearsal" scene.
What a difference a decade makes in popluar music!
But lots of early rockabilly people had back grounds in Western Swing, the music.

Anyhow, I would appreciate any info you would like to pass along. Maybe someone else would be interested, too.

[jennyisdancing]

"As to traditional, yes, blues is a traditional music form for West Coast Swing. Looking at the tapes of WCS performers you'll find an entire period where Blues was the predominant form chosen."

What period are you writing about?
Can you give the titles of songs that were used?
Where can I see these "tapes"?
I wasn't trying to open up a whole debate about history by saying that blues is traditional music for WCS. Simply pointing out that in my personal experience, there tends to be two types of music played these days at dances: current and recent pop/rock/R&B, and blues. Blues is obviously the more traditional choice of the two. The WCS teachers at my studio say the same thing. One of those teachers is John Festa, who makes himself known as a "traditionalist" in his music choices, and that means he plays blues when he DJ's a dance.

Getting back on topic, you are so right, d nice, your posts are excellent. Because I have musical knowledge, I was really getting confounded learning WCS because the patterns didn't fit the musical measures and it was making me crazy. I had trouble keeping time while dancing the patterns. I decided to start thinking two counts at a time and it helped immensely. Although I did that just to help myself learn the basics, you are right in saying that the principle really helps you go way beyond that, because you start to realize "oh, I could take these two counts of the pattern and do something different, or play around and extend the two-count section to four", etc.

[Steve Pastor]

OK, jenny, would you ask John Festa which blues songs were danced to traditionally, and when that happened?

[cornutt]

Because I have musical knowledge, I was really getting confounded learning WCS because the patterns didn't fit the musical measures and it was making me crazy.

You're right; I think musicians and people who are musically knowledgable actually are at a disadvantage in this regard. You can't help but thinking, "That's not right! It doesn't work that way!" But it does. Took me a while to get past that. Now, hustle -- I still haven't come to grips with that three-count thing. :rolleyes:

[jennyisdancing]

OK, jenny, would you ask John Festa which blues songs were danced to traditionally, and when that happened?

Stop that!
:p:grin:

If you really have to know more, though, you can check out his site for his musical philosophy. (http://www.swingislove.com/essence.htm)

And you said it cornutt, hustle seems even worse than WCS because of the three-count thing. At least with WCS you can break patterns down into two counts at a time (usually) and then you're working with an even number. I can't even figure out how anyone invented three count hustle, because hustle music (disco) clearly has such a strong, simple 4-count rhythm. I've heard a couple people guess that hustle looks more interesting and varied when the counts don't match the music. I don't know about that. All I know is, I still have to count to myself quite a bit to stay on beat when doing hustle, whereas I don't have to with WCS.

[Steve Pastor]

Right. He writes,

"We no longer dance exclusively to blues and rhythm & blues with a syncopated back beat. "

But there is nothing about when "we" were dancing to blues and r&b.
I wonder to if to him, "blues and rhythm & blues with a syncopated back beat" is synonymous with early rock & roll, which would include rockabilly. But, you know, to many people rockabilly is not near as cool as "blues and rhythm & blues". In fact, rockabilly was used to insult the musicians, who were primarily from the South, as were most of the Western Swing musicians.

I'm just trying to get people to cough up some facts rather than philosophy, and it's not easy.
Really, I have tried many, many web sites. Lots of words, very few facts. And I've looked at lots of movies trying to find the things that people write about.

OK, I won't bring it up again (unless someone else does).

[cornutt]

And you said it cornutt, hustle seems even worse than WCS because of the three-count thing. At least with WCS you can break patterns down into two counts at a time (usually) and then you're working with an even number. I can't even figure out how anyone invented three count hustle, because hustle music (disco) clearly has such a strong, simple 4-count rhythm.

The only thing that works even a bit for me is the fact that most disco music has no accented beats; every beat is boom-boom-boom and the note value is exactly the same for all beats. Still, though, it's 4/4 and the melody tends to work in units of 4 or 8 bars. There's only one explanation for how three-count hustle got invented that makes sense: cocaine. :rolleyes:

[jennyisdancing]

The only thing that works even a bit for me is the fact that most disco music has no accented beats; every beat is boom-boom-boom and the note value is exactly the same for all beats. Still, though, it's 4/4 and the melody tends to work in units of 4 or 8 bars. There's only one explanation for how three-count hustle got invented that makes sense: cocaine. :rolleyes:

:uplaugh:
Actually it seems to me that many disco songs do have very strongly accented beats. Good examples: the song "Contact" by Edwin Starr, "Let's All Chant" by Michael Zager Band, "Disco Nights" by GQ. All of them have a big honking accent of one-two-three-AND-FOUR. I love those songs but when I hear them I really want to time my hustle "and" step to that 'AND' accent in the music. I can't do that on every measure with a three-count hustle and have to really force myself to ignore the song's accents.

Anyway I got kind of curious and found an interview with a hustle instructor, Steve Rebello. Here's an excerpt:

Rebello: I think the 3 count version of hustle has caught on because of the speed at which it moves.


Seyer: That's right. You have to put 4 foot movements into 3 beats of music.
Rebello: Four count hustle has all the same patterns as 3-count hustle--with all of the same ladies turns and arm movements. It's slower so it's easier to learn and it fits music well since the music has 4 beats per measure. But 3-count hustle is flashier and more exciting.


Seyer: At first it drove me crazy to count 1-2-3 when I kept hearing the music going 1-2-3-4.! But a while, I began to enjoy the contra-metrical effect produced by 3 counts against 4 beats of music. It's reminds me of music by Charles Ives where half the orchestra is playing 3/4 time and the other half is playing in 4/4. time.
Rebello: It's not so hard to do 3-count hustle if you don't think about it too much. But it's probably harder for musicians to adjust to the 3-count pattern.

[d nice]

The only thing that works even a bit for me is the fact that most disco music has no accented beats; every beat is boom-boom-boom and the note value is exactly the same for all beats. Still, though, it's 4/4 and the melody tends to work in units of 4 or 8 bars. There's only one explanation for how three-count hustle got invented that makes sense: cocaine. :rolleyes:

Actually that isn't quite true as pointed out above... most Disco music, especially the early and the late period stuff actually has very clearly denoted beats... it is that middle period of pop-disco that is nearly without any distingushment in the rhythm section. This is the music that Hustle really got popular to... a subset of the most accessible (to be kind and unbiased) Disco music.

As to 6 count patterns not matching up to two bar phrases in 4/4 music... yes and no. You have to remember that WCS evolved out of Lindy Hop and has always had very close ties rhythmically and musically to Black music. The idea of mutiple rhythms and meters in a song being played by different musicians is used through out all of West Africa (and appears in all of Black Africa and most of Arab Africa to some degree or another). So the drummer laying down a very obvious baseline of a cycling rhythm counted out 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 and you dancing to a larger cycling rhythm of 1 2 3 4 5 6 means you will push and pull the beat cycling through and aligning with the “1” every 24 counts/beats without variation.

To further “swing the beat” you dance with a syncopated step (1..2..3.&4..5.&6) which further creates the sense of propulsion in your steps and rhythms, and the next level is swapping between 6 count and 8 count patterns to push and pull your placement with the music. Above that is the idea of truncating or extending 6 or 8 count patterns to 4, 6, 8, 10 and then free styling 2 beat improvisations which may not be tied to a specific pattern but may entirely self-contained.

LOL. All of this is most easily seen when West Coast Swing is danced to music with a serious swinging rhythm section or one which uses rhythmic propulsion/tension in the shuffling method of West Coast Blues… which was played by Black and White Blues musicians transplanted from Texas who were some of the major influences rhythmically on the White Western Swing bands (Steve we can discuss more in the appropriate thread).

With todays inclusion of so much pop, R&B, Adult Contemporary, and Hip-Hop, much of which does not have the rhythmic propulsion or tension of the music that WCS was developed to it started to get a much more even count and feel to its triple steps, resembling much more strongly the ballroom-ized version of Cha-Cha. While easier to dance to and more accessible for the 30-somethings much of it lacks the defining elements that make WCS able to actually swing. You can ask John Festa about how that changes the styles of the dancers and teachers who never really danced to the core rhythms that defined the music in the 40s-60’s

[leftfeetnyc]

You can ask John Festa about how that changes the styles of the dancers and teachers who never really danced to the core rhythms that defined the music in the 40s-60’s

Definitly ask him - this is one of his favorite topics!

[jennyisdancing]

Actually that isn't quite true as pointed out above... most Disco music, especially the early and the late period stuff actually has very clearly denoted beats... it is that middle period of pop-disco that is nearly without any distingushment in the rhythm section. This is the music that Hustle really got popular to... a subset of the most accessible (to be kind and unbiased) Disco music.

Exactly; my examples of accented disco music in my earlier post all were songs from the later period of disco, 1978 and after. Some of the early stuff from 1974-75 also is strongly accented. I do find it easiest to dance three-count hustle to the middle period stuff such as Salsoul Orchestra.


As to 6 count patterns not matching up to two bar phrases in 4/4 music... yes and no. You have to remember that WCS evolved out of Lindy Hop and has always had very close ties rhythmically and musically to Black music. The idea of mutiple rhythms and meters in a song being played by different musicians is used through out all of West Africa (and appears in all of Black Africa and most of Arab Africa to some degree or another). So the drummer laying down a very obvious baseline of a cycling rhythm counted out 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 and you dancing to a larger cycling rhythm of 1 2 3 4 5 6 means you will push and pull the beat cycling through and aligning with the “1” every 24 counts/beats without variation.

To further “swing the beat” you dance with a syncopated step (1..2..3.&4..5.&6) which further creates the sense of propulsion in your steps and rhythms, and the next level is swapping between 6 count and 8 count patterns to push and pull your placement with the music. Above that is the idea of truncating or extending 6 or 8 count patterns to 4, 6, 8, 10 and then free styling 2 beat improvisations which may not be tied to a specific pattern but may entirely self-contained.


I get this intellectually, but it doesn't make it the dance any easier. :nope:
To understand polyrhythms, let alone dance to them, is a tough task and a lot to expect of beginning dancers. No wonder so many people find WCS challenging to learn. On the other hand, I'm now studying flamenco, and dancing to a 12/8 rhythm with syncopated accents makes WCS look like a walk in the park :p

Great post d nice, you really know your music.

[basicarita]

You're right; I think musicians and people who are musically knowledgable actually are at a disadvantage in this regard. You can't help but thinking, "That's not right! It doesn't work that way!" But it does. Took me a while to get past that. Now, hustle -- I still haven't come to grips with that three-count thing. :rolleyes:

I will NEVER come to grips with that three-count thing. Clearly it was not a musician that thought that up.

Why did they do that when most music is in four-count phrases anyway??? I am certainly not meaning to disparage, but it just boggles the mind. Even most (rudimentary) ballet choreography combinations are eight-count phrases.

/rant

[Dancelf]

I will NEVER come to grips with that three-count thing. Clearly it was not a musician that thought that up.

Why did they do that when most music is in four-count phrases anyway??? I am certainly not meaning to disparage, but it just boggles the mind. Even most (rudimentary) ballet choreography combinations are eight-count phrases.

My guess would be a combination of two things. (a) starting from a dance that was in three to begin with (mambo, or swing danced in cut time), and (b) making the direction change happen on a ball-change (one beat) instead of using walking steps (two beats),

If Jenny is right about AND FOUR, I see another possibility, which is that the dancers were on2. So hold-2-3-4 becomes hold-2-3&4 becomes 1-2&3.

And, as I've noted elsewhere, you can count hustle in 2 if you are willing to twist your brain a bit.

[basicarita]

If Jenny is right about AND FOUR, I see another possibility, which is that the dancers were on2. So hold-2-3-4 becomes hold-2-3&4 becomes 1-2&3.



OK, this is the first time I've seen it described that makes sense. So why not just COUNT it that way (hold-2-3&4)? Why make it so excessively complicated and confusing?

[Dancelf]

So why not just COUNT it that way (hold-2-3&4)?

Because nobody dances it that way anymore? (if they ever did, which is VERY speculative)

[redsalsero]

hey
since this thread is alive i though i might post this here.
found this forum recently. although i mostly belong in the salsa forum part
im just curious about these new style dance that seem so popular and wcs caught my eye. i watched some youtube videos and i was blown away never heard of this dance but its seems so great ehm smooth.:D
so i looked if i can find some dancestudios that teach wcs. but its not that popular here i guess.
i still need to read this whole forum so no need for explanations;)
only thing is that the music isnt really my style but ive read you can dance it to any kind of music.

do you need to be an expert in hearing the music cos when i watched the videos the feet pattern for me didnt even matched the music.

makes me wish i could dance so smooth.

[Dancelf]

so i looked if i can find some dancestudios that teach wcs. but its not that popular here i guess.

Where is "here"?



do you need to be an expert in hearing the music cos when i watched the videos the feet pattern for me didnt even matched the music.

You only need to be an expert in hearing music if you want people posting videos of you on youtube....

[Steve Pastor]

"do you need to be an expert in hearing the music cos when i watched the videos the feet pattern for me didnt even matched the music. "

It is an unfortunate fact that most people never seem to get the fact that they are supposed to be in time with the music as a basic prerequisite of dancing, rather than doing the steps and patterns at whatever speed feels right to them and calling it dancing.

Another thing to consider is that sometimes even professional film editors don't sync up the music correctly when they edit things (one "scene" in Assasination Tango is a good example of this). I have read that some video formats have problems in getting this right, too.

If you have a good feel for the beat, you should have no problem with most WCS music.

[redsalsero]

oh i forgot to mention wcs isnt that popular in the netherlands. ive never heard of it untill i saw this forum.

that the music is out of sync with the video is one reason i guess.
that question from me wasnt really the right one.
mayby i was supposed to ask what counting they use for wcs. but ive read a lil bit in here.
about 2/2 4/4 2/8 or whatever counts there is. till i read that is not the most important thing to know. simply just dance to the rythmic pattern and you should be fine at least that counts for me.

[RickRS]

Redsalsero, the count for the basic step is 1, 2, 3&4, 5&6, danced to 4/4 music. So the step pattern has 1 on the first downbeat every third measure, if you dance the basic step. There is a second basic count, used for the move call a whip, that is 1, 2, 3&4, 5, 6, 7&8, that has avoided the bit were the first step winds up in the middle of a measure.

As I had said before, I didn't get hung up because, as a beginner, I hear 4/4 popular music as 2/4 (as in "can't tell the downbeat on 1 from downbeat on 3"), so I don't notice any conflict that is messing with the minds of the more experienced dancers that are starting WCS.

[tsb]

You're right; I think musicians and people who are musically knowledgable actually are at a disadvantage in this regard.

i'd say that they can be depending on how they're taught. if anything, i think my musicial background makes my dancing much more lyrical. the only problem is that i anticipate breaks in spots where *i'd* put a break if i had written the arrangement. i was at a dance party saturday night and i was standing a couple where the leader led a break where i would have expected one - and there wasnt one! he looked a little embarrassed, so i said in a voice loud enough for him to hear "i thought there'd be a break there too". he heard me and smiled.

for me, hearing sonny watson describe it early on helped: if i stay on the slot, it's a push, if i get out of her way, it's a pass, if i make her change direction, it's a whip. the point was to look at it top down than bottom up.

You can't help but thinking, "That's not right! It doesn't work that way!" But it does. Took me a while to get past that. Now, hustle -- I still haven't come to grips with that three-count thing. :rolleyes:

i'm guessing that the inventor had one leg longer than the other.

[tsb]

The only thing that works even a bit for me is the fact that most disco music has no accented beats; every beat is boom-boom-boom and the note value is exactly the same for all beats. Still, though, it's 4/4 and the melody tends to work in units of 4 or 8 bars. There's only one explanation for how three-count hustle got invented that makes sense: cocaine. :rolleyes:

i can't understand why some people will play music with a back beat and insist that you can dance a hustle to it.

[tsb]

and speaking to the original question, why not try this:

get a metronome - you can find one online that'll fit in your shirt pocket for less than $10. play some music where the tempo has been identified, set your metronome to that tempo, and start it when the music starts. the metronome will set the beat, and allow you to focus on the music, and allow you to learn for yourself what to listen for that emphasizes the beat - whether it be the bass line, percussion, etc. noticing where the beginning of each phrase (musically as well as lyrically) is in relation to the down beat, etc.

for example the beats in music are generally accented in a way that gives you hints as to where the down beat ("1") is. but this doesn't always mean that a phrase or song lyrics start on "1" - often they start a few beats early in anticipation of the down beat (like, "on your marks, get set....")

but be aware that these things may vary from song to song, so it's best to identify all the possble indicators you can, and then use a confluence of those indicators when it's harder to discern the beat or downbeat. and if all else fails, look at dancers around you, and discern the beat from the rhythms of their movements.

[kayak]

Redsalsero, I find salsa and wcs to be great complimentary dances even in the salsa club. When the floor gets really crowded, we just switch to wcs along the rail and it works great for club style salsa music with the extra emphasis on the beat.