w.c. swing, patterns versus musicality

[Hank]

Why is there such a disconnect between the way west coast swing is taught and the way the advanced dancers actually dance?

For years, women complained to me that I just led patterns and wasn't actually dancing to the music, i.e., my dancing lacked musicality. Yet, all the classes I took just taught one more complicated pattern that was suitable for a choreographed routine, but was quite difficult to lead and follow socially or in a Jack and Jill competition. I also noticed that the advanced dancers and those in the finals of the Jack and Jill competitions weren't doing the complicated patterns that I was learning in the group classes. Instead, they do the 5 basic patterns (sugar push, underarm turn, left-side pass, tuck, and whip) with accents, hesitations, breaks, body isolations, and extensions that rely on connection, leverage, and compression.

Yet, when I asked teachers (both locally and at national conventions) to teach me to get away from patterns and dance the way the advanced dancers do, they would act all mysterious, as if I didn't know the secret handshake to get into their club, and would give vague, meaningless responses, such as "I just dance the way the music moves me" or "it's important to listen to the music."

Now, I've scaled way back on my wcs classes. Instead, I buy video tapes of Jack and Jill competitions, and take them to my ballroom instructor. We watch them together and imitate the competitors. It is a completely different way of dancing from the way I was taught in the wcs classes. But, it is not unusually difficult to learn or to teach, so I don't get what all the mystery and reluctance was about. Frankly, I am resentful of all the wcs teachers who refused to teach me what I now believe is clearly a teachable skill, and I am reluctant to give them any more of my money.

[tsb]

Why is there such a disconnect between the way west coast swing is taught and the way the advanced dancers actually dance?

For years, women complained to me that I just led patterns and wasn't actually dancing to the music, i.e., my dancing lacked musicality. Yet, all the classes I took just taught one more complicated pattern that was suitable for a choreographed routine, but was quite difficult to lead and follow socially or in a Jack and Jill competition. I also noticed that the advanced dancers and those in the finals of the Jack and Jill competitions weren't doing the complicated patterns that I was learning in the group classes. Instead, they do the 5 basic patterns (sugar push, underarm turn, left-side pass, tuck, and whip) with accents, hesitations, breaks, body isolations, and extensions that rely on connection, leverage, and compression.

Yet, when I asked teachers (both locally and at national conventions) to teach me to get away from patterns and dance the way the advanced dancers do, they would act all mysterious, as if I didn't know the secret handshake to get into their club, and would give vague, meaningless responses, such as "I just dance the way the music moves me" or "it's important to listen to the music."

Now, I've scaled way back on my wcs classes. Instead, I buy video tapes of Jack and Jill competitions, and take them to my ballroom instructor. We watch them together and imitate the competitors. It is a completely different way of dancing from the way I was taught in the wcs classes. But, it is not unusually difficult to learn or to teach, so I don't get what all the mystery and reluctance was about. Frankly, I am resentful of all the wcs teachers who refused to teach me what I now believe is clearly a teachable skill, and I am reluctant to give them any more of my money.

did you ask your local teachers to show you in a private lesson? most group classes will not go into those nuances. one local instructor actually does isolations & kick-ball-change footwork (both feet, front/side, turns) as part of our warmups & includes hesitations in his moves but i think he's an exception. i would have stayed with him, but the majority of followers in class really didn't belong (int-adv) and worse yet, when given opportunities to style would invariably ignore my lead & anchor on the downbeat instead of being ready to start a new move with the next musical phrase! <shudder>

[Vince A]

Hi Hank . . . you have a right to be somewhat resentful, however, I think you got what you asked for - WCS lessons - not musicality lessons! I do believe, that eventually the instructors would have got to that point with you. Ask them for it!

Remember, you cannot do WCS w/o the basics, or a good foundation. If you are absolutely sure of your WCS basics dancing and can WCS dance w/o counting, then I think you are ready for the musicality area that you mention. I would only count in really difficult or long (32 count) patterns. Also, remember you said "classes" - and classes are for the general masses - and many people do not "hear" the music, nor want to, as you would like to hear.

Now start listening to the music. Know where count 1 is . . . that's how you could (notice I didn't say should be???) be dancing if you are "playing" in WCS - what it sounds like you want to do. Now, if you are competing, it's different story - you need to perfect in your basics - it's what you get judged on - not how fancy you can dance. TIP: always go back and re-learn your basics!

Start counting the music . . . a lot of Swing music is based on eight counts - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. Learn to listen to where count 1 is, and then you can learn to play in WCS dancing, and once you can do this, sometimes other steps can be added and/or left out. (I used to be amazed at how the Pros knew every "break" in the music, or could do a facial gesture or body move according to the music. It's because they have learned to listen to the music).

The main thing that you need to know is count 1 and count 6, but be cognizant of what your feet are doing for the other counts. Now you can stand "off the rail" and put her everywhere and not even have to move . . . you can stay on the rail and change your mind right in the middle of a move and push her right bak to start. You can dip her, you can bend her, you can do body rolls against her body, and most important of all, you can allow her to play right back to you. Women love to "play" in WCS.

Unless you are competing, WCS is meant to be fun. That's F-U-N.

Know your basics and knowing the music makes it that way.

I could write a lot more, but am trying to keep it relatively understandable.

[jon]

Why is there such a disconnect between the way west coast swing is taught and the way the advanced dancers actually dance?

For the same reason that styling doesn't get taught much in most group classes in other dance forms. Not what most students want.

[Vince A]

Thanks jon . . . I should have mentioned that too!!!

[Neil]

Ok, here's my take. Those little accents, hesitations, isolations, etc are very easy to learn. Here's what's not so easy:

Predicting what sounds are comming up in the music.

Selecting a movement that will goes with the sound.

Getting yourself in a position to execute the movement when the corresponding sound appears in the music.

Executing the movement while keeping a good WCS connection with your partner, but not throwing her off or even adding any noise to the connection.

Doing all of the above in real time as you are navigatinga crowded dance floor.

Once you are so experienced that you can do all of that, you don't need anybody to teach you how to hesitate or flick your foot. That is just too simple to teach.

If you are just imatating the movements that the competitors do, but you do it to different music, you are NOT dancing more musically. You are still just doing patterns. The advanced dancers are being sincere when they say you have to just feel the music. That is what makes their dancing more musical.

[tsb]

Hi Hank . . . you have a right to be somewhat resentful, however, I think you got what you asked for - WCS lessons - not musicality lessons! I do believe, that eventually the instructors would have got to that point with you. Ask them for it!

but probably in a private.


Remember, you cannot do WCS w/o the basics, or a good foundation. If you are absolutely sure of your WCS basics dancing and can WCS dance w/o counting, then I think you are ready for the musicality area that you mention. I would only count in really difficult or long (32 count) patterns. Also, remember you said "classes" - and classes are for the general masses - and many people do not "hear" the music, nor want to, as you would like to hear.

Now start listening to the music. Know where count 1 is . . . that's how you could (notice I didn't say should be???) be dancing if you are "playing" in WCS.

YES! dancing feels so much better when you pay attention to the downbeat - and start new moves on the downbeat. a problem is that the passes (as taught) take only 6 counts and (unless you do four of them in a row), takes you off the downbeat.


Start counting the music . . . a lot of Swing music is based on eight counts - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. Learn to listen to where count 1 is, and then you can learn to play in WCS dancing,

and also pay attention to when a phrase begins and ends (on a multiple of those eight counts).


and once you can do this, sometimes other steps can be added and/or left out. (I used to be amazed at how the Pros knew every "break" in the music, or could do a facial gesture or body move according to the music. It's because they have learned to listen to the music).

another thing to listen for is when the melody is either silent or is holding a long note - good arrangers invariably put fills that usually make good breaks.

The main thing that you need to know is count 1 and count 6, but be cognizant of what your feet are doing for the other counts. Now you can stand "off the rail" and put her everywhere and not even have to move . . . you can stay on the rail and change your mind right in the middle of a move and push her right bak to start. You can dip her, you can bend her, you can do body rolls against her body, and most important of all, you can allow her to play right back to you. Women love to "play" in WCS.

Unless you are competing, WCS is meant to be fun. That's F-U-N.

Know your basics and knowing the music makes it that way.

I could write a lot more, but am trying to keep it relatively understandable.

i often take for granted my musical background - but it does get me into trouble because i often anticipate a break because that's where i'd put one in if i'd written the arrangement - and it doesn't happen! argh!

[dancergal]

Hank, don't know what's wrong with your dance instructors. No one pretends it's a mystery over here. Ours instructors teach patterns, styling and musicality in the advanced classes. The beginners cannot grasp it yet as learning the basic footwork is usually hard enough. Ditto what everyone else said about learning the basics first and adding musicality and styling later as you get better. Also get the instruction tapes from some of the pros that teach advanced styling. From that you can learn where you can add styling and musicality in your dance and they can show you advanced footwork that will help you. Watching a competition tape sometimes doesn't really show you how they do their footwork. What has helped me a lot is to listen to a lot of WCS music that they play at the dances and the competitions (I have a lot of CDs that I listen to in my car) so that you become familiar with the songs, the breaks and where you can "play."

[Hank]

This is my strategy for musicality, which I developed by watching advanced dancers. When I try to explain this to teachers, so that I can get feedback on it, they stop me before I’m nearly done and tell me it’s too complicated, and that they just feel the music.

1. For blues songs, I pulse the upbeats, that is, I hold the even counts a little longer than the odd counts. Some people recommend counting in a “rolling count” with 3 counts for each beat to facilitate this (+ ah 1, + ah 2, + ah 3, + ah 4 …), but I already have too high a workload for that. Contemporary, funky songs are usually too fast for this to be comfortable.

2. I count in phrases of 8 beats, regardless of the patterns I’m doing, and I try to figure out the phrasing of the song. Most songs have a phrase structure of:
introduction,
verse, chorus, bridge,
verse, chorus, bridge, …

All the verses will usually be of equal length, as will all the choruses. The chorus is the catch-phrase of the song and is often shorter than the verse. The bridge is usually intrumental and is shorter than the chorus. Songs that are all instrumental are really hard to figure out.

If there is a break, it usually happens on 1 or 5 at the transition between the phrases and will often be at the transition between the chorus and the bridge.

3. I accent every 1 (out of 8 beats) with some kind of minor body action or isolation, such as a tap step instead of a triple step, a hip pop, a leg pop, or a single shoulder roll.

4. I accent every transition between the phrases with a major isolation, or by starting a new pattern at the beginning of the phrase. When I hear the end of the phrase coming, I extend the pattern I’m doing for as many beats as needed, so that I can end the current pattern at the end of the phrase.

5. I do a hestiation on the break, if there is one. Immediately following the break, there will often be some minor accents. I do minor body isolations on those.

[Vince A]

Hi Pam . . . nice to see you're still here!

Hank,
Don't re-write the music and don't anticpate the breaks. If you hear the break coming because of the buildup of music (I won't go any deeper than that), then set up for it and hit it. If you don't hear it coming, still don't anticipate, just react to it . . . you don't have to strike a pose . . . just react and do something with your body, arms, or legs, and your partner.

Listen and feel and hear the music. Learn where count 1 of the 8 counts is always at . . . hear it . . .

A lot of Swing music will break on 1 and 5, but that's NOT a steadfast rule . . . as I have music that breaks on the other 6 counts of the music.

So, to sum up . . . don't anticipate- REACT. If you can learn to hear the break coming, or as dancergal says - "become familiar with the music" - then you will be able to execute those breaks. "Hit the brakes" or "hitting the breaks" - both are the same.

Just don't anticipate or force it.

[d nice]

Copying improvisation is not improvisation... it is just someone elses moves... more patterns.

You can not be truly musical until you understand the concepts of the dance, how to lead and follow, and have the vocabulary with which to improvise off of.

Complicated patterns normally have inherent musical qualities as well as syncopations... the base of whcih improvisationa dn musicality come from.

IT is like asking why first grade teachers are not teachign their students how to compose sonnets... the students don't have a firm grasp of the English language let alone rules of grammar... writing a sonnet is beyond them.

As adults we have the ability to see others composing poetry, and want to do it as well... but we don't always understand that we are not ready for it.

To add to this, even when a student is ready for musicality and improvisation a standard group class is not the place for it. So many rules get broken that unless the class is specially targeted (as in a workshop) or has a high teacher/student ratio (as in private or semi-private lessons) it is in fact going to be counter-productive.

[d nice]

Hank... I agree with your teachers. Your method is way too complicated (sorry we haven't been properly introduced, I'm Damon and I'm the rsident DF/Swing "Devil's Advocate" and all around "Bad Guy" TM).

If you have to map out the music mathmatically I'll bet you $50 that what you are doing is not only, not musical, but mechanical. Being musical is about tapping into the spirit of the dance and the song. If you dance from your head rather than your heart you will be extremely limited in what you will be able to achieve.

Don't get me wrong... knowing what is happening in the music can certainly allow you to wrap your mind around what will come next even on songs you haven't heard, but when you are on the dance floor the knowledge should be something more visceral rather than intellectual, allowing you to literally feel the changes in the music rather than having to count or plan.

[Vince A]

Hank,
What you outlined . . . it is way too technical. It makes you think, and if you are thinking, you are not feeling and hearing the music.

I think all of us are trying to tell you to relax and just dance. If you know your basics . . . just "do" what the music is making you feel. Forget about the long difficult patterns . . . go back to the basics . . . a L side pass, a R side pass, a push, a whip, a slow L side pass and let the follow "play, same on the R side . . . let her play. Then build a playground around the rest of your moves.

You can also play or compliment her while she does her thing.

She "knows" where she has to end up, so let her do it. For example, in a R side pass, by count 2, she knows what your intention is and she knows the move and she knows what she has to do. You do not need to put her at the end of the slot for the anchor. Now, just do your part.

Darn . . . just have fun . . . that's what it's all about.

[Neil]

Hank,
What you outlined . . . it is way too technical. It makes you think, and if you are thinking, you are not feeling and hearing the music....

To me

thinking the music = feeling the music + being aware of the process

Sometimes you learn how to do something unconsciously and don't even realize what you are doing.

[Vince A]

Hank,
What you outlined . . . it is way too technical. It makes you think, and if you are thinking, you are not feeling and hearing the music....

To me

thinking the music = feeling the music + being aware of the process

Sometimes you learn how to do something unconsciously and don't even realize what you are doing.
Neil,
I agree, the way you wrote it. Hank was "only thinking," and not feeling the music. I was trying to get him to relax. The producer's of the song have already done the thinking, and he was trying to anticipate what they did - hence, he was to pre-occupied with the music, and not doing your formula for success!

[dancin/dj]

hank, i think all the answers are good - there are different types of teachers out there, i think (some) milk people for money- opps not politically correct- bear in mind i said some.of course we need a strong basic foundation-but i've seen soooooooooooooo much of what you said in hustle . salsa, and west coast swing,students wishing they could dance w/ the music etc...and the teachers acting strange, i would recomend to start listening to all kinds of music-and sort of meditate on it-absorbe it- eat it so to speak-not dance for a brief period- learn from musicans we can teach u- a lot of times teachers cant give you what you ask because there milking you- or they dont know how to communicate listening/feeling the music- some of them dont listen/ feel. vince is a musican like me and i like what he said about how the musicans already wrote out the parts-so listen to them-you can get there by that route.

[kubo]

I know this is an old thread but i just wanted to say that I've started dancing the West Coast Swing a few weeks ago and am glad to remember at least half of the patterns we have learned so far, let alone the basics correctly! i know that once I am completely comfortable with the basics, I can move onto more advanced things. :D

[Joy In Motion]

I'm glad you revived this old thread. It is a very interesting discussion, and I was not around back then to participate.

I think there are two main points that people keep reiterating, and I agree with them both:

1) You can't improvise and truly dance the way you feel the music until you have a deep understanding (in your body) of the structure of the dance and the music. It can't just be head knowledge; it has to become so ingrained that it becomes second nature, like becoming fluent in a language.

2) Copying someone else's improvisation, or trying to memorize improvisational patterns, are not improvisation in the true sense of the word. You have to "feel" the music, not the way anyone else feels it, but the way you experience it.

My personal experience with improvisation first came from salsa. I have taken a few classes and lessons in improvisation for salsa before, but none of them permanently affected the way I improvise in salsa. It was only when I had been dancing salsa long enough and often enough, when I had truly immersed myself in the music and the dance, that improvisation began to naturally come out in my dancing without much conscious effort. That would not have happened without that deep knowledge and embodiment of the structure (you can't break the rules until you know them) as well as feeling the music and letting it come out naturally the way my body experiences it. Now I am sure that classes and videos and lessons in improvisation help with feeling comfortable with the structure and the variables in the structure that are possible, and that contributes overall to the body's muscle memory and absorption of the rhythmical structure, movement possibilities, and everything else, but the actual improvisation itself comes from the body's knowledge and feeling.

That is what I enjoy so much about West Coast Swing. Even more so than salsa, it emphasizes musicality because the structure is so malleable. My experience with improvisation in salsa was helpful to me, because I have practiced different syncopations, and they are fun, but I am not forcing my improvisation. I do it when I feel it. And people often compliment my style and musicality, and specifically that it is unique and not forced or fake. I think we should not seek improvisation for its own sake but for a greater enjoyable of the music. So by all means practice, but also make an effort to just not do anything else unless you feel it and it feels good. That really helps you to develop your own style naturally, instead of just being a cookie-cutter image of someone else.

[Me]

Just wanted to say that I am very glad this thread was brought back to life and I will continue to read with interest.

I am very interested in WC Swing but it is my least favorite to dance. I always feel a fool. Most men give me noodle arms and verbally coach me through convoluted patterns that do not work, yet they insist on trying them over and over again. It is not enjoyable at all.

[kayak]

I always figure if something didn't work the first or second time, it isn't going to get any better the 25th time. So I might as well try leading something else. Sometimes, the problem is with my lead and others the lady just isn't getting it. So I try to adjust and find things that are fun.

I'm glad I spent a lot of time on fundamentals and basics. The amazing thing about complicated patterns is they all break down to linking together little basic patterns.

This year, I am finally able to play with the music more. It took me a long time to get the dance ingrained so I don't have to think about it and try to listen to the music at the same time. It is really funny to hear a change coming and miss by a beat or two. As long as I don't make it too dramatic, we just dance right past and hopefully only I know I had planned on hitting something differently in music :)

[Steve Pastor]

I have a former professional dancer friend who refused to do WCS. She said she never has any idea what the guys were doing. Part of that is that most people (both men and women) aren't listening to the music. They are just doing their moves. Oh, once in a while they'll hit a break, etc, but in general...

In order to improvise (to the music) you have to be able to communicate what you want to happen to your partner.
Noodle arms? Maybe they are being taught to "lead with their center". That is a fine concept, but, just as in Argentine Tango, something gets lost in translation, and you end up with a weak lead, and woman who don't want to be "pulled" or "pushed".

Meanwhile, last night, one of partners stopped me while I was on my way to dance the "Cha Cha Slide - Part II", a line dance with called moves. (You can find it on the web.) She asked if I wanted to do WCS to it. I thought ***???? for about 2 seconds, and said yes. (She loves to just make stuff up as much as I do.)
Now, I find it darn near impossible to "turn off the music" and just dance what's in my head. And this song changes a lot, calls for you to stomp two times, cha cha, go down low, do "Charlie Brown".
Well, we winged the whole thing. There was some WCS in there, I guess, with me trying to "hop three times",etc while making it look and feel like West Coast. We may have looked completely goofy, but what the heck.
And there is one key to improvising. If it doesn't work, so what? Wasn't it fun trying?

[Vince A]

Steve . . . it sounds like a WCS to me . . . and a fun one at that!

[kayak]

Yea, it is like a musicality dot-to-dot complete with instructions like "Slide to the left", "ChaCha real smooth". How could you not have fun with that :) I'm all over hints like one hop or two hops!

[noobster]

I am very interested in WC Swing but it is my least favorite to dance. I always feel a fool. Most men give me noodle arms and verbally coach me through convoluted patterns that do not work, yet they insist on trying them over and over again. It is not enjoyable at all.

Gosh, really? I just started getting into WCS a few months ago but I am really loving it. I find people are paying so much more attention to the music than they do in the salsa scene.

I am not sure whether this is because I happen to have found a great teacher or whether it is because the dancers can relate better to familiar music with lyrics they understand. Probably a bit of both.

And something I have noticed about the WCS dancers around here is that the better ones are actually much more willing to take - even solicit - feedback from the follower and incorporate it into the dance. In salsa if I do something slightly unexpected I can often detect the hiccup as the guy backs up to Plan B. It's not usually a big problem - maybe not even detectable to an outsider - but it's not what I would call welcome.

In WCS I find the guys take my little variations, expand on them, and turn things in an utterly new direction. But the cool thing is that they positively seem to welcome these digressions. They feed off of them. I love it.

Regarding 'noodle arms,' maybe the perception depends on your dance background (or maybe it really is just the local dancers in your scene). I do notice a lot of change in the tension - unlike salsa, where there is a constant (hopefully light) connection that allows moment-to-moment changes in the lead, WCS seems to have a cycle of compression and release, where the 'lead' happens in the compression and the follower gets to use the 'release' sections to introduce new variables.

[Dancelf]

I do notice a lot of change in the tension - unlike salsa, where there is a constant (hopefully light) connection that allows moment-to-moment changes in the lead, WCS seems to have a cycle of compression and release, where the 'lead' happens in the compression and the follower gets to use the 'release' sections to introduce new variables.

Certainly in the California style (the balance changes in other parts of the country). Of course, it's also quite likely that you in SF are getting a very different experience than a dancer in Mississippi.

[dancin/dj]

Hi hank i think most of the answers(as always) are on the money as in it takes different angles to get the whole answer, here one i believe is also correct(when teachers ACT strange as u said(different word was used by you), heres my take, its all about money(keep a student down-so they keep taking lessions) i"ve seen it in all kinds of dance forms, of course im not sayin all teachers do this, just some, a very old trick everywhere on earth in every trade etc......any teacher should give all information when asked no matter what-your paying.

[Hank]

Although it’s been over 4 years since I first posted this topic, I still experience many of the same frustrations, despite having taken many more hours of private lessons. Although people tell me to react to the music, by the time I’ve heard the music, it’s too late to react to it.

Several posts have mentioned the topic of tone in one’s dance frame, which is another example of teachers who teach one thing and dance another, which I find frustrating.

I often hear teachers say (in a group class or to other students) “Don’t have noodle arms,” or “you need more tone in your arms,” but when I dance with them, feel their connection, and observe their musculature, their arms are clearly relaxed. Instead, their chest, shoulders, and back muscles are flexed, which anchors their arms to their body. This anchoring plus their weight shift forward and backward over their feet cause their dance partner to feel elastic tone, leverage, and compression.

I find referring to “arm tone,” “arm tension,” or “noodle arms” to be misleading because it implies that one needs to flex the biceps, triceps, or forearm muscles, which is false. The teachers who use those words aren’t flexing those muscles, and once I stopped flexing those muscles and started flexing my chest, shoulders, and back, no teacher ever complained about my dance frame again, despite the fact that my arms are completely relaxed.

[Peaches]

I am very interested in WC Swing but it is my least favorite to dance. I always feel a fool. Same here. It absolutely fascinates me as a dance, but I can't get to liking it. The playing intimidates me, the basics are kinda boring after a while, and the concept of the lead and timing just mystifies me. All in all, it's more stress than it's worth, to me. But all the same...I love watching other people dance it well. It just amazes me.

I always figure if something didn't work the first or second time, it isn't going to get any better the 25th time. So I might as well try leading something else.Amen! I wish more guys would get that. There is one guy who I will dance WCS with--because I feel totally comfortable with him, he's a good leader, and I know that if I totally screw things up he's good enough (and has enough of a sense of humor) to get things back on track...and laugh about it and make me laugh at myself. And, he knows how I feel about being left alone to play. (Besides, I dance AT with him where the roles are kind of reversed, so we have sort of a tradition of putting up with, and laughing at, each other's mistakes.)

[Steve Pastor]

OK, let's talk a bit of anatomy.
Your biceps do one thing. They bring your hand/forearm closer to your shoulder.

Your triceps do one thing. They move your hand/forearm away from your shoulder.

If you are holding your arm at an angle, for instance your forearm is horizontal to the ground, your biceps is exerting enough force to counteract the force of gravity, which is pulling your forearm down. Call it what you will. But if your biceps is completely relaxed, exerting no force at all, your forearm will fall as it's pulled by gravity.

Likewise, if your partner "pulls" on you, and you don't answer that pull with a like force, flexing, toning, whatever, of your biceps, your arm will be pulled straight.

Noodle arms.

Lots of inexperienced women get into trouble (ie run into other couples) when dancing in crowded conditions, or when someone moves into "our slot", because they aren't paying attention to the fact that the amount of tension I have in my arms, sholders, etc, has increased. In other words I am trying to tell them, "Hey, don't go there!" They let their arms go to full extension (again Noodle Arms), and boom, they smack into someone.

I've learned to only dance with women I can trust when things are crowded (or too slow, or too fast, kinda limits the choices).

This is not to say that the muscles in your back, shoulders, legs, etc, aren't contributing, too. They are of course. And you aren't just using your arms.

It's just that the ways we have to talk about these things are very imprecise. Either that or way more complicated than most of us want to deal with.

[Dancelf]

Although it’s been over 4 years since I first posted this topic, I still experience many of the same frustrations, despite having taken many more hours of private lessons. Although people tell me to react to the music, by the time I’ve heard the music, it’s too late to react to it.

Has anybody taught you that music has rules? That if you react to where the music is telling you to go, you can move quickly enough to meet it there?

I often hear teachers say (in a group class or to other students) “Don’t have noodle arms,” or “you need more tone in your arms,”

Yah, this is a bit of brain damage - the hardest part of lead follow is compression in open position, and what's the first pattern that we teach? Sugar push. Really bright. Especially since that pattern goes nowhere (consider - after you've been dancing for a few months, you've got a couple variations of whips, and side passes, and still have only one push break).


But there are some interesting contradictions. Good instructors will lie to you if, in those circumstances, the lie will produce better progress than the truth. I've often gotten the impression that some very good instructors are lying to themselves, for similar reasons (otherwise, "things get more confusing for the student").

For the most part, I'm willing to let it slide - as a rule, if you get a student to the point where they can recognize the lie, then the lesson has done its job.

Lots of inexperienced women get into trouble (ie run into other couples) when dancing in crowded conditions, or when someone moves into "our slot", because they aren't paying attention to the fact that the amount of tension I have in my arms, sholders, etc, has increased. In other words I am trying to tell them, "Hey, don't go there!" They let their arms go to full extension (again Noodle Arms), and boom, they smack into someone.

Steve, trusting to your description..., this indicates that you need to lead better. My guess is that you are leading in one spatial dimension, you should be using all three.

[Steve Pastor]

Hank:
Think of a few songs that are played often where you dance. Get the music so you can listen to it over and over again. Listen to it over and over again. Listen for things such as when the breaks are going to happen. Listen for places where the music gets softer, or louder. Listen to the lyrics to see if there is anything in them you could work into your dance. For instance on my way to dance last night I heard a song with the oft repeated line "gonna kick up my heels". If you know when something is coming you stand a much better chance of reacting to it when it happens. And as you get to know the music better and better, you just KNOW when things arer going to happen.
Until you get to that point, don't be afraid to pick tunes apart. All of that conscious knowledge will become something you use without even thinking if you keep working on it.

[d nice]

Although it’s been over 4 years since I first posted this topic, I still experience many of the same frustrations, despite having taken many more hours of private lessons. Although people tell me to react to the music, by the time I’ve heard the music, it’s too late to react to it.

Yes... someone needs to go over the whole improvisation and communication thing with you. I'd suggest Sylvia or Mario. In the Lindy world there are dozens of instructors who could break this down, but I'm just not deep enough in the WCS world to tell you who specifically to go to.

Several posts have mentioned the topic of tone in one’s dance frame, which is another example of teachers who teach one thing and dance another, which I find frustrating.

I often hear teachers say (in a group class or to other students) “Don’t have noodle arms,” or “you need more tone in your arms,” but when I dance with them, feel their connection, and observe their musculature, their arms are clearly relaxed. Instead, their chest, shoulders, and back muscles are flexed, which anchors their arms to their body. This anchoring plus their weight shift forward and backward over their feet cause their dance partner to feel elastic tone, leverage, and compression.

I find referring to “arm tone,” “arm tension,” or “noodle arms” to be misleading because it implies that one needs to flex the biceps, triceps, or forearm muscles, which is false. The teachers who use those words aren’t flexing those muscles, and once I stopped flexing those muscles and started flexing my chest, shoulders, and back, no teacher ever complained about my dance frame again, despite the fact that my arms are completely relaxed.

What can I say, you have finally seen through veil. Welcome. A LOT of teachers talk about something in terms that make sense to them but which don't really have the meaning for those listening. Demonstration and exercises are very much needed to ensure that what we as teachers say is heard by you the student the way we mean it.

The muscles in your arms should not be purposefully engaged. If you are trying to stiffen or tone your arm muscles I'd bet dollars to donuts that you are doing it wrong (as in too much). Concentrate on the tension of the muscles that connect the arm to the torso. Those are the ones which will have the biggest impact on how movement of your body will translate into movement of your followers body. It is dancing/leading from your center and it is the best way. Dancing arms, pulling and pushing with your arm rather than moving your body is going to take your follower out of sync with you. You'll speed up, slow down, or change the angle of movement of your follower in relation to your own body.

There are always exceptions, but generally speaking making your follower move AHEAD of your lead and your body rather than after it is asking for problems.

[d nice]

OK, let's talk a bit of anatomy.

Let's.

If you are holding your arm at an angle, for instance your forearm is horizontal to the ground, your biceps is exerting enough force to counteract the force of gravity, which is pulling your forearm down. Call it what you will. But if your biceps is completely relaxed, exerting no force at all, your forearm will fall as it's pulled by gravity.

Here is the beginning of your probelm. You are isolating the body and muscles. You have to look at the bigger picture, how the arms work in relation to what the rest of the body is doing and what THAT is in context of dancing.

Holding hands with my partner will keep the forearm from being perpendicular to the floor and the further away our bodies are from each other the more parallel to the floor our forearms are going to be, despite the amount of muscular tension there is or is not in our biceps.

Likewise, if your partner "pulls" on you, and you don't answer that pull with a like force, flexing, toning, whatever, of your biceps, your arm will be pulled straight.

Overly simplified. Simply tightening your chest and back muscles will prevent this from happening. Give it a try. Roll your shoulders forward, up, back and down, and visualize trying to put your shoulder-blade into your back pocket. Then have someone pull (strongly) on your arm. Try to keep the arm muscles as relaxed as possible. See what I mean?

Lots of inexperienced women get into trouble (ie run into other couples) when dancing in crowded conditions, or when someone moves into "our slot", because they aren't paying attention to the fact that the amount of tension I have in my arms, sholders, etc, has increased. In other words I am trying to tell them, "Hey, don't go there!" They let their arms go to full extension (again Noodle Arms), and boom, they smack into someone.

This has nothing to do with the other per se. Someone could be dancing your way simply not be paying attention to the lead. As a matter of fact the more tense the arm muscles are the more difficult it is for your follower to feel the change in tone and tension of your body and the more difficult it is to follow you.

[Dancelf]

Yes... someone needs to go over the whole improvisation and communication thing with you. I'd suggest Sylvia or Mario. In the Lindy world there are dozens of instructors who could break this down, but I'm just not deep enough in the WCS world to tell you who specifically to go to.

Especially if you've got the engineering head, Mario is going to be the best choice. In however many years I've been at this, he's the only one I've seen who teaches musicality by talking about music - at least in a public setting (group classes, workshops, and the like).


The muscles in your arms should not be purposefully engaged.

Agreeing with this, I've come to express the "why" somewhat differently.

For the arms, softer is quicker than firm; a clean lead of a "ropey" patterns calls for being able to move the arms without the muscles getting in the way (yes, that's a physiologically cheesy explanation, as the muscles of the arms are doing the work. This is a case where physiologically cheesy also seems to be effective).

Similarly, one of the tricky leads to learn are those cases, like head loops and face loops, where you want to be able to change the relative location of the followers hand without changing her momentum. It's a lot easier to isolate the movement of the hand when the arm muscles aren't being used to lead.

[Steve Pastor]

"the arms in lindy hop should be as relaxed as possible. The bicep, tricep, and deltoids will engage as needed to keep the arms toned while executing moves"
from an earlier post by d nice

[Steve Pastor]

Please, address Me's concern, posted earlier in this thread.

"I am very interested in WC Swing but it is my least favorite to dance. I always feel a fool. Most men give me noodle arms and verbally coach me through convoluted patterns that do not work, yet they insist on trying them over and over again. It is not enjoyable at all."

Specifically address her concern about noodle-arms.

My take on it is that it is an outgrowth of the "no push, no pull" "lead with your center" way of teaching WCS. Which BTW someone whose experience with teaching WCS goes back to the 50s did not encounter until about 7 years ago, and I hadn't encountered until I heard it from a few of the women in Skippy Blair's class last year (although I didn't hear Skippy say it). Although, I, as well as others, have noted the demise of the Sugar Push, which seems to be turning into a pattern that the women step through, rather than an exchange of energy bewteen partners.
And the exchange of energy bewteen partners is what makes partner dance so enjoyable. Without it, it feels like a listless walking through steps. Which sort of brings us back to patterns vs musicality.

I DO enjoy hearing from both of you.

[Dancelf]

I'm not really sure that there's much to address - yup, most leaders don't use their arms correctly. And the other complaints are valid. I'd say blame the dancers instead of the dance - the scene sucks for beginners, and hasn't gotten any better in a long time.

My take on it is that it is an outgrowth of the "no push, no pull" "lead with your center" way of teaching WCS. Which BTW someone whose experience with teaching WCS goes back to the 50s did not encounter until about 7 years ago, and I hadn't encountered until I heard it from a few of the women in Skippy Blair's class last year (although I didn't hear Skippy say it).

I don't buy that even for a minute "no push, no pull" and "lead with your center" are true in every other partner dance I've experienced. It's going to require extraordinary evidence to persuade me that there is a relationship between actually teaching this, and poor execution by the students.

Furthermore, while ideas about lead and follow have been changing for... well, a while ago (I first heard about 1 beat leads about 9 years ago), but noodle arms have been around for a lot longer than that.


If I were to try to tie the problem to a single phenomenon in the dance, I would blame the dancers (and instructors) for drinking the "it's a learned dance" kool-ade. Yes, it's true that raw beginners can't enjoy dancing with other raw beginners AND more advanced dancers after an hour, as they can in other dances like east coast or salsa. This doesn't excuse the westies from dropping "learning how to dance with a beginner" completely out of their curriculum.


Although, I, as well as others, have noted the demise of the Sugar Push, which seems to be turning into a pattern that the women step through, rather than an exchange of energy bewteen partners.

Demise would be a shame, but I happily defend the notion that it should be deemphasized in the dance (see my earlier remarks). Question: are there any other dances that, in their beginner syllabus, include a pattern where compression from open position is used to initiate travel?

[Steve Pastor]

Not that I know of, but there is an analogy in Argentine Tango.
And that would be the cruzada, or cross. It's actually a pretty complicated series of movements, that is difficult to learn to lead. I think people teach it because it is such a big part of Argentine Tango, at least in the minds of many teachers. (Some people report that you just don't see this move much at all in Buenos Aires.) So, it is taught as "this is what the woman does, and this is what the man does" with minimal or no physical interaction between the partners.

At least we agree (I think) that the Sugar Push (aka the Push Break) is not really a basic step.
When I learned we started from a closed position, then went to open slotted position traveling back and forth in the slot. That in itself was too much at the time.
Then there was the Sugar Push. The instructions for the woman were pretty simple. The woman owns the slot, so walk forward as if you are going to walk over or through the guy. Both partners then have to keep their hands and arms in front of themselves to keep from colliding.
Sometimes I read about the "correct" way to do the Sugar Push, and I wonder who decided what is "correct"?
Somewhere recently a teacher was sort of bemoaning the fact that he was often asked how many pounds of pressure should there be when...
I have been doing my best to learn as much as I can about the physics of dance, etc, just because I want to try to understand it. In the same way. I've been trying to learn about music.
The problem is in being able to talk or write about some of this stuff without getting caught up in endless parsing of things.
As someone wrote in one of the AT threads (with a smiley face), "Shut up and dance." Which is exactly what I did last night, and what I will do again this afternoon (if anyone shows up at the Sunday practica on such a nice day).

[d nice]

"the arms in lindy hop should be as relaxed as possible. The bicep, tricep, and deltoids will engage as needed to keep the arms toned while executing moves"
from an earlier post by d nice

Right... the arm muscles will "engage themselves" as needed, not that you should be trying to use your arm muscles or make them more "tone." 'That way lies madness' as the saying goes. It may seem like semantics but that turn of phrase is worlds apart.

[d nice]

My take on it is that it is an outgrowth of the "no push, no pull" "lead with your center" way of teaching WCS. Which BTW someone whose experience with teaching WCS goes back to the 50s did not encounter until about 7 years ago, and I hadn't encountered until I heard it from a few of the women in Skippy Blair's class last year (although I didn't hear Skippy say it). Although, I, as well as others, have noted the demise of the Sugar Push, which seems to be turning into a pattern that the women step through, rather than an exchange of energy bewteen partners.
And the exchange of energy bewteen partners is what makes partner dance so enjoyable. Without it, it feels like a listless walking through steps. Which sort of brings us back to patterns vs musicality.

I DO enjoy hearing from both of you.

That is post hoc ergo propter hoc. I can clearly demonstrate that using my body as my lead ("leading from the center") allows my arms to remain loose, relaxed and provide a more clear lead than using my arm muscles to generate or primarily direct momentum (aka the lead).

I could just as easily say dancing to pop music caused this lead/follow problem as you could say that it is from using a body lead. As a matter of fact I could make a better argument.

I do believe that the real problem lies in things more like "flashlighting" the idea of the follower facing the leader rather than allowing the frame to creat turns and facing, coupled with the focus in the last decade of followers having more "freedom" and being taught hijacking.

As soon as a follower believes she is responsible for the moves that happen, that she can choose to stop following a lead and supply her own ideas in its stead she ceases to worry about her primary responsibility... following. This leads to leaders feeling that every thing should be a suggestion and this leads to dancing by signals and following intellectualized rules rather than actual shifting and sharing of energy between partners.

Too much emphases on learning your part in a pattern and not enough emphases on what partner interaction creates the pattern.

[d nice]

Demise would be a shame, but I happily defend the notion that it should be deemphasized in the dance (see my earlier remarks). Question: are there any other dances that, in their beginner syllabus, include a pattern where compression from open position is used to initiate travel?

Pretty much all the swing dances. It is one of the defining characteristics of the genre. In some it is greatly deemphasized (Carolina Shag) and in others it is part and parcel that almost no part of the dance can't be executed properly without it (Texas Push, Lindy Hop).

[noobster]

.As soon as a follower believes she is responsible for the moves that happen, that she can choose to stop following a lead and supply her own ideas in its stead she ceases to worry about her primary responsibility... following. This leads to leaders feeling that every thing should be a suggestion and this leads to dancing by signals and following intellectualized rules rather than actual shifting and sharing of energy between partners.

I don't see how that works at all. It feels to me that the ebb and flow of the energy from my partner actually tells me when it's OK to insert stuff and when it's time to just follow.

Not that I can 'choose to stop following' (obviously one can do that in any dance by walking off the floor), but that there are specified moments when the leader is leading and others when he's letting me do my thing.

Certainly dancing by 'signals and intellectualized rules' can be a problem in any dance, but I don't at all see how the greater freedom accorded the follower in WCS contributes to this particular difficulty.

[d nice]

There isn't greater freedom accorded followers in WCS than any other dance, there has been a permissiveness that has developed because of some specific moves being taught by specific instructors that has lead to a split in the dance between those who do lead follow (which includes the follower improvising and styling within the space created for her by the leader) and those who think the follower can and should take responsibility for creating moves and altering moves mid lead to become something not led (this is either because the follower chooses to disconnect her frame and move her body independently of the lead that was given or because leaders are no longer attempting to create momentum in their partners bodies and instead choose to signal what they would like and allow the follower choose to execute it or something else entirely as they decide).

If I lead a left side pass I move by body to initiate body movement within my follower bringing her down the slot, I move off-line, as she passes me our arms are "relaxed" but our torso muscles around the shoulder are engaged. This interaction of our frames will cause her body to begin to turn when the slack in our arms is taken out. Eventually the follower's body will be facing me again and she will not be able to travel any further down the slot because of the leveraged tension between our bodies.

As long as the follower is not seeking to interpret the move and simply allow the momentum to play itself out she is free to do all the footwork, hip and body movement she wants, as long as she doesn't change the conditions set above.

When a follower gets good she'll realize by changing the amount of activity (tone/muscular tension) in her frame (the muscles that encircle the shoulder) will make her turn earlier or later down the slot.

When she gets VERY good she'll learn how to move her body in a way that will ask a leader to apply more tension or compression within the move, allowing the leader to choose to match it or neutralize it. Neutralizing it means the move happens as originally led. Matching it will change the way the followers body is following the move. This gives her opportunities to create even more varied improvisations and syncopations.

The key to this last is that the leader is the one who is making the decision about moves, the follower responds to the moves led and interprets the music within that framework.

IF the follower instead chose to reverse directions, halt, or move herself to my right rather than left she is hijacking the move. She has decided not to follower what I have led and substitute her own move in its place.

So you are correct, that in the ebb and flow of tension, compression, and momentum the follower can insert syncopations and improvisations, but it must be WITHIN that ebb and flow, not replacing.

The more of a breakdown there is between the roles of leader and follower, the more the dance does not work under the fundamentals of lead/follow. The more those fundamentals no longer seem to apply the more that the interaction between partners becomes a matter of rote, rules and signals and expectations. The more likely the roles further breakdown. It can become a circle which just feeds back on itself. The highest levels of dancers, Mario, John Festa, John Lindo, Bill Cameron,Sylvia Sykes etc. etc. are fighting this, but the dance seems as likely to fracture as correct itself. We already have people talking about West Coast versus West Coast Swing.

[Steve Pastor]

Argentine Tango is my touchstone as far as a mature, subtle, sophisticated partner dance. Here in the words of others who posted on a AT forum are thoughts that are in line with my own.

"It was a true conversation, subtly nuanced give and take, suggestion and response in both directions. What we live for."

"Product differentiation is an old trick to bring the worse in one area to the top on another."

[kayak]

The AT concept of lead/follow would be much like D_nice's description of WCS lead follow and very different from a WCS hijack right?

[Steve Pastor]

Exactly.
One caveat, however.
In AT lots of people don't get beyound the "the man leads, the woman follows" concept.
And, I can't say for sure that In Buenos Aires the "conversation" idea is very popluar.

Until very recently I never heard anyone use the term "hijack" when discussing AT. That would be for about 5 years that I've been paying attention.

In a "conversation" your partner suggests something, or brings it up. If she's really good, she can get you to do something without you even being conscious of it.
Many AT teachers say flat out that the lead is a suggestion that the woman is free to change or reject.

The deal is, though, that you are in a partnership, with the man having the resposibilty to lead, and together are creating something you can't do alone. But if the woman has "something to say" doesn't it make sense to listen and respond to it?
If you are "listening", and responding, or if she was really skillful at changing the direction, momentum, etc of the partnership, why would she blatantly "steal the lead" so much that people would talk about it being a different dance?

GSTDA's web site states that Both partners have the freedom to “play” as long as they do not interfere with their partner's dance.

This is how most instructors approach what are called "embelishments" in AT.
Some of us even understand that the woman can take extra stpes without being led to do so, without disturbing the lead. But there is some techincal stuff that has to go along with it in AT.
And, some guys don't much like it.

But, the more you dance, and the more you feel comfortable with your own role, the more open you can become to your partner's input, and just working it out.

In WCS you are often connected by only one hand/arm, so the dance is in some ways is very different than AT. But, one thing they DO have in common is that your partner has a mind of her own. One thing you both have in common is the music. So if you are both tuned in, and she does something you didn't lead, it should make sense.

So, I guess I just think that the use of the term "hijack" is not very productive. Rather than lead to a discussion about the dance being a conversation, it stigmatizes the women that do it.

OK, well, now you can see why I used someone else's pithy statment(s).

[RickRS]

Steve,

A quick question off topic - could you spell out what GSTDA is? Google returns nothing dance related and this is the first time I ran into the term.

[Dancelf]

Steve,

A quick question off topic - could you spell out what GSTDA is? Google returns nothing dance related and this is the first time I ran into the term.

Golden State Dance Teachers Association (http://www.swingworld.com/)

[d nice]

The problem is that a hijack is just that. Your own statement is that a partner does not interfere with the other partners dance... If I am the leader, I have specific things I am supposed to do, part of "my dance" that is to direct our bodies through space traveling on the floor, executing moves. When a follower hijacks she ceases to be the follower she is either leading herself through moves she chooses or she is leading herself and the person who was formerly the leader.

I have never liked statements like this "Product differentiation is an old trick to bring the worse in one area to the top on another." it predisposes that there is literally only one way to do everything and that the priorities of one dacne must be adhered to by every other.

In short it is absolute crap. Any examination of African diaspora dances and how they were danced by the originators and how dances from the Western European diaspora and how they were danced by the originators will reveal huge differences not in just technique but in values. Because of the cultural domination of Western Europeans throughout much of the world the values of those peoples are often seen as "correct" and anything different is seen as the other, often painted with a broad brush of savagery, exoticism, overt sexuality, and generally speaking without technique.

This has generally lessened over time, but the general sentiments are still present in various amounts, and because it tends to be subconscious, it can be even worse.

Product differentiation is a fact. You only have to look at the aesthetic and methodology of Canyengue to the Salon and look back into the history of tango and how it came from the barrios and was transported into high society... once it had been suitably changed (read had the moves and movements reinterpreted through new values).

[Me]

So much discussion has been going on here! I'm really enjoying the read.

I do think I presented a bit of a problem when I used the words "noodle arms." I'll try to present an example of what bothers me when dancing WC swing with a typical stranger. Let's say, we're looking at the WC basic as a forward/backward EC pattern (humor me, LOL). So I go, walk walk. So far, so good. Instead of giving me a "sugar push" the gentleman steps out of my path. I think, "Ah, okay. I keep going forward." I go, triple step... and then, NOTHING. Do I... turn to face him? Do I... wait? What do I DO? I have no idea because the lead is giving me nothing and my back is to him. My default is to try to turn to face my partner. So, I turn... oh, but that's "wrong"! I was supposed to wait with my back to him, shake my tush, walk backwards, execute five pivots, UAT and wrap around to sweetheart, throw in some Lindy rhythm... AHHHHH!!!!!! What happened to the music? What foot am I on? Where did my partner go? Oh no, he's doing it again because I didn't get it the first time. HELP!!!!

[Steve Pastor]

What you describe is a bit different than what we read, or at least what I read, but no problem. I look at this as a discussion, and I obviously enjoy bouncing ideas and concepts around.
Before going back to what you are describing...

Product differentiation is a marketing term that was probably made up in a business school. It is different than music or dance evolving into a different form then given a name at some point in that, to me, it is done very consciously.
It turns out that there is lots of historical precedent, in some respects. W.C. Handy Father of the Blues" renamed his "Yellow Dog Rag" to "Yellow Dog Blues" (and didn't change anything else), just so it would sell better (as sheet music). So, even in 1914 smart people were aware of the power of "branding".
You may be aware of Kurt Litchman's use of the term "jump swing", which became an entry to itself in Wikipedia. Editors eventually deleted the article when they agreed that "jump swing" was not really any different than other forms of swing.
And, BTW, the bolded quote was from GSTDA, rather than being my words. GSTDA could refine that statement to be more inculsive of give and take "conversation" in WCS, which is my hope "for the future'.

[Steve Pastor]

Back to Me's post...
I would say that you "should" feel a slight "tug" somewhere in your connection to your partner, if he wants you to turn one direction or the other.
Or, you should feel his "other" hand on your shoulder keeping you from moving that shoulder back to turn that direction.
Or, you could do the default, and turn on your next triple, completing a "basic pattern".

WCS was very difficult for me to learn. I always felt like I was on the stop and responsible for leading something, and something was always just a few steps away and I didn't know that many somethings. So I appreciated the fact that I could rely on my partner to fill in the blanks sometimes. Well, lots of the times at the beginning.

One criticism I have of most instruction to this day is that patterns are taught rather than lead an follow. To me that means what each partner can do to make the lead easier to understand, and beign aware of "feedback" from your partner, and, on the other side, what can the follower do to be easier to lead.

In AT, which I found even more challenging than WCS, you are in a closed position. In AT, when you eliminate the arms and/or frame, you cut out a lot the the things that make lead/follow, connection, frame/embrace, forward energy, etc so confusing to talk about. Everything becomes pretty clear when you are chest to chest with your partner. In some ways not any easier, but the issues are minimized.

In WCS, even if you "lead from your center", your connection is still through your arms and hands. And look at what fun we have writing about that!

I always tell people to learn other dances before trying WCS, because I still think it difficult to learn.

Are there any guys where you dance that at least are dancing in time to the music? If they are, you would at least have that understanding in common. What a concept!

I am now able to tell my partners to take their steps in time to the music, always. Stick with that slow, slow, tri ple step tri ple step, always. (unless it's an "eight count", sorry!) I make sure that, although I am not manhandling them, they have a clear indication of where I want them to go.

But, again, this is after many lessons, and much dancing over a number of years. I was like a deer in the head lights when I started. Same way with AT. So I kept taking lessons.

Surely, there is someone in your community????

[Steve Pastor]

I would have to say that "the African diaspora" is hardly monolithic in its attitudes.

When the "Slow Drag" was used in the play "Harlem" in 1929, "Many members of the black community were incensed by this picture of the underside of black urban life."

Meanwhile, Scott Joplin included the "Slow Drag" in his opera Treemonisha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treemonisha), choreographing the dance with explicit directions which include the words "hop and skip", "prancing", "marching", and "Double the Schottische step to fit the slow music."

[Dancelf]

I'll try to present an example of what bothers me when dancing WC swing with a typical stranger. Let's say, we're looking at the WC basic as a forward/backward EC pattern (humor me, LOL). So I go, walk walk. So far, so good. Instead of giving me a "sugar push" the gentleman steps out of my path. I think, "Ah, okay. I keep going forward." I go, triple step... and then, NOTHING. Do I... turn to face him? Do I... wait? What do I DO? I have no idea because the lead is giving me nothing and my back is to him.

Ah... that. In my circles, "noodle arms" usually means something else, hence my confusion.

Yup - for a number of reasons it takes guys a long time to discover that they *still* aren't leading. And nobody ever bothers to teach how to dance with beginners, so that part of things isn't going to improve any time soon. That's becoming my favorite windmill to tilt against.


There are some defensive measures that you can learn - they take your head from "what do I DO?" to "I do X unless I get a lead that tells me differently". There are a number of different answers for X, the best fit for you will depend on the community where you dance most often. This doesn't really fix anything except the confusion - but it will fool the guys who were expecting X into believing that they actually lead the pattern (and hey, if it avoids the explanation of what you were "supposed" to do from someone who has no clue themselves, that's a small win too).


I would say that you "should" feel a slight "tug" somewhere in your connection to your partner, if he wants you to turn one direction or the other.

No "tugging". No "pulling". No "pushing". "Lead". Verbs matter, especially in the inferences that people take from them.

[Steve Pastor]

Well, you are free to write and say anything you want.
I have lots of happy partners who have no problems following what I lead. You can call it "lead" rather than slight "tug" if you wish, but I'm not sure how "lead" fits in with basic physics and such, so excuse me while I stick with the terms that have some analogue in the physical world.

[kayak]

Hi Me,

I was just going to add that the type of pattern differentiation you are describing has to be one of the hardest leads for me personally. Leading a right side pass was pretty easy to learn. However, when all the variations and walks and whips all facing down the slot are thrown in, the subtleness of the leads took a while to learn.

For me, leading a lady so that she doesn't complete the right side pass and instead we turn it into a locked whip without the lock is a delicate balance of leading early and setting up a strong enough block that she can not mistake my intent to bring her back all while being smooth and gentle. If I am a little late, the ladies complete the right side pass. If my block isn't firm enough, we extend the 8 count to a 10 or 12 count. Making it even more difficult, there are a bunch of fun turn combinations to lead from this "opened" locked whip. Somebody probably has a cool name for this whip?

Anyway, since it takes a subtle touch for the guy to lead it, I imagine a lady has to have just as subtle a feel? I have really been working on trying to imagine my patterns as combinations of two beats instead of 6, 8 or more. That seems to be helping me keep track of where I am and what is possible from that point.

[noobster]

I do think I presented a bit of a problem when I used the words "noodle arms." I'll try to present an example of what bothers me when dancing WC swing with a typical stranger. Let's say, we're looking at the WC basic as a forward/backward EC pattern (humor me, LOL). So I go, walk walk. So far, so good. Instead of giving me a "sugar push" the gentleman steps out of my path. I think, "Ah, okay. I keep going forward." I go, triple step... and then, NOTHING. Do I... turn to face him? Do I... wait? What do I DO? I have no idea because the lead is giving me nothing and my back is to him. My default is to try to turn to face my partner. So, I turn... oh, but that's "wrong"! I was supposed to wait with my back to him, shake my tush, walk backwards, execute five pivots, UAT and wrap around to sweetheart, throw in some Lindy rhythm... AHHHHH!!!!!! What happened to the music? What foot am I on? Where did my partner go? Oh no, he's doing it again because I didn't get it the first time. HELP!!!!

Yeah, that's not what I think of when I hear "noodle arms" either.

But interestingly, it turns out that I can relate to your experience as described - except that I actually *like* it.

It is true that in WCS - unlike any other dance I've tried - there are times when I just do not really feel a lead. Though our hands are still touching, the leader drops the tension for a couple of beats. I tend to take this as an invitation to do *whatever I want.* Maybe he did expect me to shake my tush and do five pivots or maybe not, but in practice I do whatever I feel like doing based on the music and the momentum I had at the last moment when I was feeling a lead.

The guys don't seem to have any problem with this, and when they're ready to lead again (typically two triples later) they are quite adept at channeling the momentum from whatever I chose to do into an appropriate and musical led move.

This is what I mean when I say the follower seems to have more freedom in WCS. It's of course possible that the leaders view it differently; but the ones I dance with seem to enjoy it enormously from what I can tell. More importantly, if they don't like it they're perfectly free to lead continuously, rather than affording me the opportunity to extemporize, and hence turn the dance from a one-way to a two-way conversation.

[RickRS]

Another aside... what exactly is "lead from your center"? I heard the term but I don't understand what people mean by this.

[kayak]

Yea, I think Noobster is dead on. The best ladies I dance with are so smooth about asking to add an extra few beats that if I choose not to give it, they are instantly back on track with my lead. I'm never very fond of a true Hijack where I lead something and the lady does something totally different. However, I find the asking for extra space or beats to be really fun.

[kayak]

Another aside... what exactly is "lead from your center"? I heard the term but I don't understand what people mean by this.

Imagine your arms forming a relaxed but firm L out from you body. If you don't let your arms extend and step back with your whole body, the lady instantly knows you are leading her to step forward. If I was to the stop and step forward, she instantly knows to go backward.

I think the advantage is the lead is much earlier and earlier makes life easier on the ladies. If I was to take two steps back, let my arms extend a lot and then pull her towards me, she has almost no time to react to the lead. So the cool pattern I would have led breaks down.

The idea of leading with my center seems to come up in almost every dance type. I'm always trying to be polite. So one of the hardest things for me to learn about leading with my center is stepping right through the lady is usually the best lead. It always seems counter intuitive to me, but it sure does work.

[RickRS]

Ok, not to worry, "lead with your center" has been drilled into me by my wcs dance instructor. The concept, not the necessarily the term. And thanks to kayak, a eureka! moment for me; "center" as in "center of gravity", "lead" as in firm frame, no noodle arms, smooth pressure toward and away from the follow, without jerking, yanking, pushing, or pulling. Term and concept are now embedded in the noggin. And to be fair, I'm sure the instructer used the term while demostrating the concept (likely multiple times), it just didn't sink in.

Actual impedmentation of the lead is problematic for us beginners; it's not rigid, it's not even constant.

Witness the simple left side pass with a (leader's) left arm connection (as taught by my instructer); lead with your center as leader steps back and out of the slot, connecting arm relaxs and falls as follow passes, frame and tension restored in connecting arm as follow continues to end of slot. Any "leading" by the beginner leader in the middle of the pass is incorrect, "lead" at the start, "lead" at the finish. Simple, but everyone of us leads (well, some of us, and by some I mean me) will start by holding the arm up at elbow height the entire pattern because we are "leading".

Getting back to Me's problem with WCS; so to get her to wait, back to me, shake her tush, five pivots, etc..., how do I do that one, there a secret handshake or something? ;)

[kayak]

Getting back to Me's problem with WCS; so to get her to wait, back to me, shake her tush, five pivots, etc..., how do I do that one, there a secret handshake or something? ;)

Of course there is a secret handshake. You just have to buy beer for the forum, and you are in ;)

The trick is to decide if you are going to provide playtime or lead each motion. Providing playtime is an easier lead. I find I just have to adjust to different partners. Some like to groove a bit on their own and others want me to lead.

First, make sure she feels no rotational energy as she goes past you. If she does feel your hand dropping, she will probably pivot and anchor. So I find that sliding down the slot behind her keeps me for needing to reach. That reach can cause an inadvertent pivot turn. If I walk down either my rail or the slot behind her, I can keep my hand perfectly centered on her. That way, she has to break her frame to turn and the natural thing is to follow her arm and stay moving farther down the slot. What free style moves she does while you are giving her extra beats is up to her. After whatever playing we do, just let your hand path finish the left or right side pass and she will pivot and anchor.

The other option while she is going down the slot is to actually lead all the swivels and pivots. I think that is a much harder lead than just providing playtime. I often find that leading the pivots and directions changes from sweetheart position is the easiest. So I often like to start the pass from cross-handed double left over position. As she passes, we basically automatically move to sweetheart position. As I walk down the rail with her, I have a solid position to lead her direction/momentum changes. Finish the open locked whip and you are right back to cross handed position or you can turn yourself on the anchor and be back to normal.

I find leading the open locked whips is a tough balance of creating a solid enough block to change her direction, leading without rotation and still being smooth and gentle to be quite a challenge. It sure is fun though. I probably messed the lead up a million times before getting the touch. I'm proof that laughing fixes all bad leads :)

[d nice]

I would have to say that "the African diaspora" is hardly monolithic in its attitudes.

When the "Slow Drag" was used in the play "Harlem" in 1929, "Many members of the black community were incensed by this picture of the underside of black urban life."

Okay so you have the words... but do you understand what they mean?

Meanwhile, Scott Joplin included the "Slow Drag" in his opera Treemonisha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treemonisha), choreographing the dance with explicit directions which include the words "hop and skip", "prancing", "marching", and "Double the Schottische step to fit the slow music."

How do say this... what you are reading here is probably not what was meant. There is also a difference between the Ragtime Slow Drag (which is more in keeping with the varsity Drag) than the Deep South's Blues styled Slow Drag.

[d nice]

Well, you are free to write and say anything you want.
I have lots of happy partners who have no problems following what I lead. You can call it "lead" rather than slight "tug" if you wish, but I'm not sure how "lead" fits in with basic physics and such, so excuse me while I stick with the terms that have some analogue in the physical world.

The "problem" with using words that mean something in physics is that most people aren't overly familiar with it as a concept let alone a science. They have their own interpretation of the word above and beyond that which physics requires of it. These connotations are been tripping up people for decades.

I've found in order to be most clear, especially in an online forum, using words that have the same essential meaning in practical application, but do not have the more unwanted connotations is more productive. Even if the word does not have a specific meaning in physics. I try to use words which in a biomechanical setting will achieve the proper result. When I am in person I can say "pull," "push," "tug," etc. because I can show what I mean and I can give all the appropriate cautions about not using the biceps, or the arm in general to generate the energy.

The word lead, guide, draw are often more preferable as far as getting the desired result...

But in this case since you are talking to a follow about what she should be feeling when it is done correctly, and you included quotation marls around the word pull. I think you are just fine.

[d nice]

Imagine your arms forming a relaxed but firm L out from you body. If you don't let your arms extend and step back with your whole body, the lady instantly knows you are leading her to step forward. If I was to the stop and step forward, she instantly knows to go backward.

Not really true. The whole point of leading form your center is not that your follower knows anything instantly but she doesn't have to know anything at all. Her body will start traveling when the leveraged tension or compression is great enough to overcome her inertia. It does not require any interpretation at all... it is just physics and relying on body-mechanics to relay it.

I think the advantage is the lead is much earlier and earlier makes life easier on the ladies. If I was to take two steps back, let my arms extend a lot and then pull her towards me, she has almost no time to react to the lead. So the cool pattern I would have led breaks down.

No body leads actually tend to create a more noticeable lag than an arm lead. The follower is literally following the leader, as in moving after, rather than executing the same move at the exact same time. This allows our arms to be relaxed, our frames engaged and the momentum to cause the tension/compression between our bodies to build and ebb as we move in and out of phase with each other. IF you have ever had a dance where the connection feels soft almost "gushy" where everything is eased into, accelerating and decelerating to make each movement comfortable with no surprises, even when something rapid happens, that is dancing from your center.

The idea of leading with my center seems to come up in almost every dance type. I'm always trying to be polite. So one of the hardest things for me to learn about leading with my center is stepping right through the lady is usually the best lead. It always seems counter intuitive to me, but it sure does work.

Exactly. Leading from your center is almost always going to work best by moving your body and not giving overmuch thought to what it takes to make your follower execute a step. If I want my follower to do a sugar-push/push-break I simply do it myself. My follower is starting at a dead stop. My stepping backwards for the '1' brings my follower's torso forward (think Newton's 1st Law of Motion) which in turn will bring the rest of her body forward. When I start my triple step my follower is still moving forward, into my frame, because she is out of phase with me, and when I step forward at the end of that triple I've increased the compression between us above and beyond the forward momentum she had, sending her back down the slot form which she came. She continues following that momentum until she can travel no further without disengaging her frame and this creates tension between our bodies (through the arms, we don't want to try and flex our biceps to create the tension artificially) while she is still stepping and the anchor step results.

Now it is VERY common in WCS all the way through the upper intermediate levels, as Steve was saying, that leaders and followers will do their part of a move rather than actually leading and following the movement required to create the move. Forward and backwards steps are done by both partners because of the recognition of what is required to do a move, not because of an real interaction between their bodies. This is especially obvious in a lot of anchor steps, followers will triple in place because they are 'supposed' to anchor not because they are being anchored.

[kayak]

Cool, I like your phase description. It makes up for my lack of ability in the description of instant. A word like naturally would probably work better than instant. Good thing I'm not a dance instructor :)

I have been playing with accelerating and slowing down things like whips as good ways to improve our musicality. I am sure you have been doing that for so long it is second nature. For me, changing speeds has been a great way to step beyond just repeating all the fun moves I have learned.

It is amazing how many places there are in the connection between partners for something as seemingly simple as accelerating a turn to break down.

[dancingmomof2]

I have taken a good musicality class from Jordan and Tatiana before at a competition event. I think it takes a lot of practice and familiarity with the music. If you watch those pros in the jack and jills they really know every song. I think its like Dancergal says.. "become familiar with the songs, the breaks and where you can "play.""

[d nice]

The love of old thread resurrection.

[jennyisdancing]

I have taken a good musicality class from Jordan and Tatiana before at a competition event. I think it takes a lot of practice and familiarity with the music. If you watch those pros in the jack and jills they really know every song. I think its like Dancergal says.. "become familiar with the songs, the breaks and where you can "play.""

Yes, those pros are totally familiar with those songs, and that helps a lot. However, if you listen to enough music in general, and you learn a few things about music theory, you also will be able to predict most of the breaks and accents in a song that you never heard before. Most blues/pop/rock/R&B songs have certain structures of repeating patterns and cycles. Once you know that, and can hear it in the song, you can feel comfortable dancing even to unfamiliar music.

[chandra]

IMO whether or not there is actually any bicept or tricep engagement or not is semantics. Everything certainly works out better if we all just essentially forget about our arms when following and leading basics.

I may have said this example in this thread before, I dont remember, and Im not going to re-read the whole thing. Its my favorite example:
Leading from the center may not make things "instant" but they sure as heck do make them more accurate - so seemingly more instantaneous.
There is an old theatre arts exercise, and honestly, I dont remember what its for in theatre. It makes a heck of alot of sense in lead and follow: Two people stand facing each other. One is a leader, one is a follower. first, with there hands apart, the leader leads motions, and the follower mimics them. One can get quite adept at this, and seemingly very connected to the other persons intentions. However, at the end of the excercise, the leader and the follower are asked to touch hands and repeat the exercise.
IMO, the difference in communication between the two above scenarious illustrates beautifully the difference in connections between two beginning dancers and two advanced dancers. A beginning dancer feels and then reacts. An advanced dancer reacts.
IMO, thats why followers are told to have rigid, barbie doll arms at first. It helps them feel that, when they are pushed they should move. It is nearly impossibly for a beginner to create the same feeling with relaxed arms. As the progress, they relax. If they start relaxed they will probably be stuck in the feel and then react phase. IMO of course.
:D

[d nice]

In my experience it is the exact opposite. Tense arms dampen all nuance from a lead which results in a follower having to be dragged or driven to move, versus a follower with relaxed arms will eventually start moving once all the slack has disappeared from their connection.

An advanced follower can modulate her frame enough to compensate for stiff arms (it is the reason why they look so good dancing with bad leaders)while a bad follower can't.

The analogy that I use and demonstrate in class is holding a followers hand as if we were a couple, we are walking in a mall and stop. I'm checking out the display window of a electronics store dreaming of a 52" Plasma screen TV. I glance at the lady and realize she is looking at the display window of a jewelry store. I think to myself "this cant be good," and then I realize the display is of engagement rings! Time to go. So without saying anything (because I don't want to have "that" conversation hear and now) I simply walk away without letting go. Our arms relaxed I'm moving she isn't until the slack is gone and then that momentum is transferred to her center and she starts moving, no feeling, no thinking, just physics. The perfect example of lead/follow.

But we are definitely saying the same thing, leading from your center (as in creating movement with your body) and following from your center (because of momentum transferred to your body and allowing it create your movement) is far more efficient, exact, nuanced, relaxed, and comfortable, than following by rote, signal, or arm leads.

[jennyisdancing]

The analogy that I use and demonstrate in class is holding a followers hand as if we were a couple, we are walking in a mall and stop. I'm checking out the display window of a electronics store dreaming of a 52" Plasma screen TV. I glance at the lady and realize she is looking at the display window of a jewelry store. I think to myself "this cant be good," and then I realize the display is of engagement rings! Time to go. So without saying anything (because I don't want to have "that" conversation hear and now) I simply walk away without letting go. Our arms relaxed I'm moving she isn't until the slack is gone and then that momentum is transferred to her center and she starts moving, no feeling, no thinking, just physics. The perfect example of lead/follow.


This is hilarious!:uplaugh:
But what about the follower who doesn't want to leave the jewelry display and you have to drag her away from it? ;)

[d nice]

I'd go so far to say 9 times out of 10 she ill at least start in the direction she is being led, before she digs her heels in. ;)

It is a funny analogy, it gets people laughing which makes them more comfortable and really sinks in bypassing all the technical talk because at one point or another we have all done hat and had it done to us, so we get the sensation we are striving for on a visceral level. Now it is simply recreating it.

[kayak]

This is hilarious!:uplaugh:
But what about the follower who doesn't want to leave the jewelry display and you have to drag her away from it? ;)

Then, he does his own thing and she does her own thing and you have Salsa :)