Social Dancing with More Advanced Dancers

[Wyndstorm Huntress]

I've been taking group classes in ballroom and west coast swing for three months now. It's been recommended to me that a good way to improve my skills is to attend social dances, and dance with as many different partners as I can.

When asked to dance, or when I ask someone to dance, I always tell them right up front that I'm just a beginner. The majority of guys I've danced with have been very gracious about this, and the practice is helping me get better at following leads for things that I haven't learned yet.

Occasionally, I get the guy who dances to his level, not mine, and it's way more than I can handle. For example, last night at a studio party, one lead in particular had me trying to do so many advanced steps that about mid-way through the song, we were tripping over each other's feet practically every measure. His solution was to hold me right up to his body, and to try and lead me by pushing my legs with his legs. I should mention this was a waltz, and the solution didn't work very well.

I mentioned a few times when the tripping started, "I haven't learned how to do that yet." Oddly, he'd still try to do the same step, and we'd trip again. I just wasn't getting it. Even when he was doing a pattern that I was familiar with, such as a change step, he was adding these twists and direction changes to it that got me disoriented with what my footwork was supposed to be.

So what do I say or do when this happens? Clearly I've communicated that I'm a beginner, and that there were patterns he was trying that I was unable to do. Should I just try my best to just endure the rest of the song? I've been told that a large number of the dancers who frequent my studio's parties are silver and gold level dancers. Is it difficult for someone who is that advanced to dance at a beginner level?

[mamboqueen]

Hi there....and welcome aboard.

He may be earnestly thinking he's helping you out by getting you to do something...or perhaps he is bent on trying to lead it properly. In any event, if you've made it clear (and it sounds rather nicely) that these steps are uncomfortable for you until you learn them, then perhaps just saying "please stick with basics" is the next step. If he persists, honestly, I'd walk off the floor (but that's just me -- I have zero tolerance for someone completely disrespecting my wishes).

Usually a person will adjust accordingly once you tell them you're a beginner. They should not keep doing things that are going to make you uncomfortable. It's pretty rude. If they want to dance advanced steps, they probably know who in the room is able to handle them. And no, it shoud not be difficult for someone to adjust down. It's not like they got to advanced without doing the same things you're doing.

On the upside, if you are really fortunate enough to have a lot of advanced dancers at these dances, you will probably learn very fast. Honestly, it may seem somewhat intimidating at first, but I think in 6 months, you'll be amazed at how far you've gone.

Enjoy yourself -- and if there are people who are making you completely uncomfortable while dancing, and disrespecting your wishes, simply decline.

[fascination]

So what do I say or do when this happens? Clearly I've communicated that I'm a beginner, and that there were patterns he was trying that I was unable to do. Should I just try my best to just endure the rest of the song? I've been told that a large number of the dancers who frequent my studio's parties are silver and gold level dancers. Is it difficult for someone who is that advanced to dance at a beginner level?he could either have a messianic complex or simply be trying to be helpful...either way, I wouldn't worry much about it...like all learning, in a social or private setting (b/c learning does happen at parties whether one sets out to or not), it is going to be bumpy at first ...hang in there...as for whether or not it is difficult for an advanced dancer to dance with a newb...if it is an advanced dancer, not just a dancer who knows lots of fancy steps and fancies themselves to be advanced, it is quite easy...b/c an advanced dancer who wasn't trying to teach you something, but rather simply enjoy dancing with you, would know how to dance at your level and to make adjustments to aid in the comfort of the team....an advanced dancer would leave you thinking you are better than you really are, not worse...just my 2 cents

[Peaches]

an advanced dancer who wasn't trying to teach you something, but rather simply enjoy dancing with you, would know how to dance at your level and to make adjustments to aid in the comfort of the team....and advanced dancer would leave you thinking you are better than you really are, not worse...just my 2 centsAbsolutely, 100% spot-on.

Unless they guy's just a jerk. In which case, he could be perfectly capable of dancing at your level and helping you out, but chooses not to. But...that just makes him a jerk.

[waltzgirl]

IME, the guys who do that are not actually very good dancers. They may look advanced to beginners because they know a bunch of patterns, but as you progress, you'll often find that they don't have much technique and don't actually lead very well. Certainly, clamping onto you and shoving your legs is nobody's idea of good leading!

Where I dance, there are a quite a few people who dance silver who don't seem to know bronze steps in American smooth. In some cases, that's because they have been dancing for umpteen years and have forgotten the bronze they learned at the beginning. In other cases, I think they somehow jumped into silver without ever really learning bronze. When I started going to dances, my pro taught me a few "survival silver" steps to make it easier to follow those dancers. It helped a lot. If you get to know one of the more considerate leaders, perhaps he would take a minute or so to slowly lead you through some of the silver steps so you can get a feel for how they work. Once you get the hang of continuity steps in waltz and foxtrot and adjust to the different timing between bronze and silver foxtrot, those dances will be a lot more comfortable.

[etp777]

Man, glad I don't dance with MQ, too scared she'd walk off the floor on me. That'd be embarassing. :)

On rest, agree with what's been said. No matter how far I progress in syllabus, I've always tried to keep at least a couple steps at any level (esp beginner level, as I feel as a regular at the studio I should help get new students out on the floor) so that I can dance with someone of any level and they should feel comfortable with what I'm leading. I will try stuff I think is a bit beyond them once, or even twice, if it seems they're doing well, but if it doesn't happen by second time, I won't do it again, will jsut enjoy the dance. Or at least the conversation, if the dance isn't that great (and not trying to be mean there, som epeople, for whatever reason, are just not a pleasant dance, whether it's something on their part, or a lack in my lead). But you should never have to deal with a "lead" like that (the close hold and shoving your legs around).

I wouldn't suggest walking off the floor, but definitely feel free to gracefully turn down any further invitations to dance.

[DennisBeach]

if it is an advanced dancer, not just a dancer who knows lots of fancy steps and fancies themselves to be advanced, it is quite easy...b/c an advanced dancer who wasn't trying to teach you something, but rather simply enjoy dancing with you, would know how to dance at your level and to make adjustments to aid in the comfort of the team....an advanced dancer would leave you thinking you are better than you really are, not worse...just my 2 cents

There are 2 independent teachers who I have seen at dances, that fit your definition to a T. They make all their partners look better. There are some teacher want a be's that do the opposite, they seem to frustrate most of thier partners. The worse are guys who are not even good and try to lead difficult moves that are beyond their ability. Than they look at the lady like it's her fault.

[cornutt]

Occasionally, I get the guy who dances to his level, not mine, and it's way more than I can handle.

Yeah, that's just rude. But I'll admit that, like etp777 said, I sometimes like to push my follows just a little bit. I'll try one step that is just a bit past her level. It's great when a follower does something she hasn't done before and her face lights up! It's the sort of thing you have to be careful about, though; you can't push too far. The other reason for doing it is that you can get information about where you stand as a lead that you can't get any other way. Sometimes you don't really know for sure if you are leading a step properly until you try it with a follower who isn't familiar with your repetoire. Your instructor or regular partner might have unconsciously adjusted to something that you are doing wrong. If it crashes and burns when you dance with a new dancer, you just might have some work to do.

Sometimes the follower almost does the step but not quite, and then she'll ask me for advice on it. Danger, Will Robinson: you have to be careful not to give her advice that contradicts what her instructor is teaching her. I know all the instructors at our studio and and what their philosophies are on various things, so I can avoid that problem when I'm at home, but if I go to another studio I sometimes have to just keep my trap shut.

And then occasionally I'll try something with a beginner and a train wreck results. If I can isolate what I did wrong, I might try it one more time during that dance. But two attempts is the max.

[kathyt cupcake]

Yeah, that's just rude. But I'll admit that, like etp777 said, I sometimes like to push my follows just a little bit. I'll try one step that is just a bit past her level. It's great when a follower does something she hasn't done before and her face lights up! It's the sort of thing you have to be careful about, though; you can't push too far. The other reason for doing it is that you can get information about where you stand as a lead that you can't get any other way. Sometimes you don't really know for sure if you are leading a step properly until you try it with a follower who isn't familiar with your repetoire.

At our socials there is a fairly large range of levels, and we have one regular advanced standard lead who will drag his followers around the floor even if they can't follow (I've been a victim). I'm not sure if he's trying to do his routines or if he just doesn't realize that it's not fun when you're getting flung around. I think etiquette demands that you stick out the dance with someone like that on the floor, but you can decline future dances and you don't have to talk to him about it. It is also true that some advanced level dancers don't keep up (or maybe never had much of) their social dancing skills, but you'd be less likely to see them at socials.

Generally speaking though, I love dancing with the higher level ppl even when I'm faking steps to generally match the flow of what's going on- it just gets easier as you keep on going to follow socially.

[Chris Stratton]

The line between something wonderful vs a really nasty thing to do to someone else can often be very thin in description, yet huge in the difference in how it feels to experience. The reality is that dancing someone beyond the level of their previous experience can really be a wonderful dance, when it works. On the other hand, when it doesn't work, it's really inconsiderate.

A few weeks ago, I was talking with a newer dancer and we spent a while discussing frame and connection. Standing there we worked a lot on establishing a comfortable and secure sense of "home" in each other's hold. It turned out that a foxtrot was playing, so without too much thought I just started dancing it with her... and it worked quite well, really much better than it would have if we had set out to dance a foxtrot, because having the attention focused on the sense of self position relative to partner let the feet simply sort out themselves. I wouldn't say that we did anything particularly complicated (though even basic international foxtrot is quite complicated to explain), but because we were so distracted from worrying about the details, it was actually quite easy to dance it at a higher level of foxtrot-ness than would normally be possible. Sort of don't think, just feel.

The problem is that you have to both have the measured audacity to assume that it will work in the situations where it will, and also the judgment to not try it in the situations where it won't. Situations which depend as much on current focus of attention as they do on actual level of dance skills...

[jwlinson]

IMHO most advanced guys who attempt to lead beginning follows through their advanced steps are only trying to show off how much they know. I've witnessed this quite often, and more often than not the guy will earn a very bad rep. We have one such guy in our area, and no one wants to dance with him (to the point they learned which perfume he is allergic to, told the other ladies which perfume it is, and now wear it just SO he stays away from them).

It's the leader's responsibility to be sure he is able to actually LEAD the step with the particular follow he's dancing with. Social dancing is about having FUN dancing, and it's no fun for either the follow or the leader when they can't get around the floor without tripping over each other's feet, running into each other, etc. The times when I'm dancing with someone other than my regular partner I'm conscious of the level of the lady, and usually have an idea of what I can and cannot get away with.

I'd much rather watch a couple at an open social party doing very good basic moves around the floor, than the couple crashing and burning while the leader attempts to lead his lower-level follow through advanced steps.

You're much more likely to put that smile on a beginning lady's face by dancing the steps she knows, and dancing them very well (with perhaps one or two she's capable of but doesn't know, and you're capable of leading well) than you are trying to lead her through more advanced steps.

[jwlinson]

The problem is that you have to both have the measured audacity to assume that it will work in the situations where it will, and also the judgment to not try it in the situations where it won't. Situations which depend as much on current focus of attention as they do on actual level of dance skills...

Well said.

[tsb]

there *are* some folks who for whatever reason remain rigid in their choice and execution of figures who do not fall into any of the previously stated categories.

rather than ascribing motives to another's behavior, i suggest that you leave it at that if you experience discomfort/unease dancing with a particular person, and if you've verbalized and clarified exactly what actions caused your discomfort and these actions don't change, don't dance with them any more.

[Peaches]

there *are* some folks who for whatever reason remain rigid in their choice and execution of figures who do not fall into any of the previously stated categories. What sort of categories do you feel they fall into, then?

[cornutt]

What sort of categories do you feel they fall into, then?

Stuck in choreography, or similar. They may not be attempting the exact same routine every tiime, but it's guaranteed that they are only dancing the small subset of steps that are present in their current choreography.

[WorksForShoes]

Yes, one never knows if these gentlemen are truly trying to be helpful, if they have an inflated sense of their own dance abilities, if we as followers just aren't ready to dance with them, or what. But these sorts of leads are all over the world, and some dance survival skills include:

1. If all else fails, keep your feet moving according to the rhythm of the dance, following at least the direction the gentleman is leading you. I've missed following any number of unexpectedly-led waltz developes, leans, and spins, but if my feet are moving 1-2-3 in the same direction my partner is going, we both get out of the move alive.

2. Concentrate on your own balance and dance frame. This will minimize any accidents and make you "easier to lead," so that maybe the gentleman will have more success and won't resort to leg pushes, etc. (Which is just wrong, IMO, but this wasn't supposed to be a comment on his manners.) I've also found that a good frame sends a signal to those guys who lead by thinking you "know the same patterns" and want to dance with a floppy hold.

3. Strongly set parameters when he asks you to dance if you plan on accepting. "Please keep it basic for me." or "Please no spins." or whatever the biggest problem is. That will at least remind him that you are more annoyed than thrilled when he pushes you through something and then happily declares "That was Gold 7 on the syllabus!"

4. If all else fails, decline the dance. While you can get away with a certain amount of "I'm not energetic enough for quickstep tonight," it might be better to be honest while seeming to do him a favor. "Our last waltz didn't go so well, and I think you would enjoy it more if you picked a more experienced partner."

5. Finally, if you do get pushed out there onto the floor and feel embarrassed (as I always do in these situations), just remember that skilll level mismatch has happened to everyone, and everyone understands what is going on and doesn't think any worse of you for it.

[tanya_the_dancer]

Maybe he just learned these steps and he wants to try them no matter what. Sometimes guys don't understand that nicely lead basics feel a lot better than the latest fancy amalgamation shown in a group class the day before :) . OTOH, too many fwd-fwd-side-together are not exciting either, so there should be some sort of balance there somewhere.

[cornutt]

Maybe he just learned these steps and he wants to try them no matter what.

As a slight defense, I will point out that instructors sometimes push their student leads to do that. You don't really know if you are leading a step properly until you try it with a follower who doesn't know in advance that you are going to do that step. (That's one of the problems with group classes, and we've discussed it before -- it's too easy for both partners to just walk through their own steps, without any connection, because they know in advance what step they are doing.)

However, there is a definite limit to this sort of thing -- once per dance, or twice as the absolute upper limit. If you can't lead the step after two tries, you aren't going to lead it without additional practice and/or instruction.

[tanya_the_dancer]

As a slight defense, I will point out that instructors sometimes push their student leads to do that. You don't really know if you are leading a step properly until you try it with a follower who doesn't know in advance that you are going to do that step. (That's one of the problems with group classes, and we've discussed it before -- it's too easy for both partners to just walk through their own steps, without any connection, because they know in advance what step they are doing.)

However, there is a definite limit to this sort of thing -- once per dance, or twice as the absolute upper limit. If you can't lead the step after two tries, you aren't going to lead it without additional practice and/or instruction.

Yeah, one needs to know when to give up. It could also be the follow's fault, too, when she does not get the leads (i.e. she lost her connection to you), so rather than keep increasing frustration levels, why not go back to basics.

[WorksForShoes]

I don't have a problem with that, Cornutt. Just from reading your posts, I'd say you sound like a pretty considerate lead. It is never a problem for me for a guy to try something a couple of times, then maybe say "Oops, thought I could lead that new step, but I need a review." It is the leads that do that and then say, "Don't you remember that one?"

[Tenehill]

We have one such guy in our area, and no one wants to dance with him (to the point they learned which perfume he is allergic to, told the other ladies which perfume it is, and now wear it just SO he stays away from them).


This is an ingenious solution!

To help the ladies who don't want to dance with me, I'll give another, less evil-spreading, recipe: when making an eye contact with me, put on a a sour face expression with pH between 1 and 0. That would be enough.

[cornutt]

It is the leads that do that and then say, "Don't you remember that one?"

To which the appropriate response is, "It's not my job to remember." ;)

[Albanaich]

I think one also has to bear in mind that one of the best ways to improve your leading skills is to practise with weak followers.

This usually starts of with the leader trying easy stuff then trying something more complicated (which goes horribly wrong)

You know you are getting good at leading when you can take a follower though a move she has never seen before and you get the reaction from the follow 'did I do that?'

A good, strong lead can make almost anyone dance, no matter what their skill level. Ok so it might not be perfect, but you can generally get them moving round the floor. It all goes horribly wrong when a lead has a false idea of their own ability and they try to do something they can't confidently lead and a poor follow has no chance of following.

The best strategy for a weak follower with a confident lead is to simply not think about dancing. If you relax the lead will be able to do more or less anything he likes with you - you have to be 'putty' in his hands :-)

It's sort of like sex - if you have to think about what you are doing and it doesn't come naturally its likely to all go horribly wrong.

[LatinDancer006]

This is an ingenious solution!

To help the ladies who don't want to dance with me, I'll give another, less evil-spreading, recipe: when making an eye contact with me, put on a a sour face expression with pH between 1 and 0. That would be enough.

That just earns you the reputation of a sour puss or an immature tandrum throwing/pouting bratt. I've seen my share of these in salsa clubs. These girls never smile, and I mean never smile regardless of who they dance with.

[elisedance]

my pH is 13..5.

(0.5 more? a lady has to have limits... :roll:)

[waltzguy]

I totally agree that inexperienced or unpracticed leading is sometimes encouraged by teachers. This commonly happens real-time in a group lesson where there's people with wide ranges of experience levels. And when the "rotate" happens, the science experiment begins.

[elisedance]

:D
when the follow that did the step sequence perfectly rotates and hits reality... :o

[cornutt]

my pH is 13..5.


That's pretty base, El. ;)

[tanya_the_dancer]

This is an ingenious solution!

To help the ladies who don't want to dance with me, I'll give another, less evil-spreading, recipe: when making an eye contact with me, put on a a sour face expression with pH between 1 and 0. That would be enough.

Some guys are so dense they do not get it. We have one "new" (not to dancing, just new to the area) guy, who is a disaster. He did learn something about dancing somewhere, he kinda knows the footwork of most steps in the international style manuals. He memorized them in some routine, but he has no lead to speak of. Dancing with him feels awful (an understatement). As much as I love standard, I would rather not do it at the parties at all, if he is the only standard leader. He does not seem to care at all if the lady is having a good time or not. Sour expression does not deter him. Turning into a jelly doesn't either. Once he gets a hold of a lady, he sometimes won't let go of her for several dances in a row. The only thing to do, which we already mastered with our previous disaster guy, is to keep an eye on him and if you see him heading in your general direction, get up and either grab the nearest guy or head to the bathroom.

[elisedance]

Participatns on this list are here in large part because we 'want to find out' about dancing - for whatever reason. This means we have to have some awareness about dance and about lead and follow. It is easy to forget (especially if you do not do much social dancing) that thiat is not the case for everyone - they can have a very different image of what dance is about. For your 'lead' (which he is not :| ) it sounds like dance is to him maneuvering round the floor while pushing a woman. He just does not get it - and he maybe never will. But it seems to me this is one guy you should politely refuse to dance with - if several of the best followers (the ones that are easiest to push round the floor!) did perhaps he would get the message.

[Terpsichorean Clod]

Participatns on this list are here in large part because we 'want to find out' about dancing - for whatever reason. This means we have to have some awareness about dance and about lead and follow. It is easy to forget (especially if you do not do much social dancing) that thiat is not the case for everyone - they can have a very different image of what dance is about. For your 'lead' (which he is not :| ) it sounds like dance is to him maneuvering round the floor while pushing a woman. He just does not get it - and he maybe never will. But it seems to me this is one guy you should politely refuse to dance with - if several of the best followers (the ones that are easiest to push round the floor!) did perhaps he would get the message.
Hmmm...I wonder if such a "leader" might not be able to identify the best followers.

[elisedance]

I think so - he would find them the lightest wheelbarrows... ;)

[Terpsichorean Clod]

<lol>

[Joe]

That's pretty base, El. ;)
The better to neutralize the acidic looks she gets from her spurned dance partners. ;)

[elisedance]

not necessary - I'm also a social pH buffer....

[cornutt]

not necessary - I'm also a social pH buffer....

What indicator should we use with you? ;)

[Wyndstorm Huntress]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old ghosts. :)

I feel an update is in order. I have been taking group and private lessons for over a year now, and I'd say my dancing has certainly improved. What was interesting was that the dancer in question as well as many of the other highest level leads at the location in question pretty much left me alone for most of the better part of 2008. I'd stick to dancing with my classmates, visitors to the venue, or with my boyfriend who has a few more years of experience dancing than I do.

As I became more of a regular and got to being social with a good number of the dancers there, more folks would ask me to dance, and I grew more comfortable with asking other guys to dance with me. Sometime around maybe September or October of last year, the high level dancers who had previously ignored me (including the dancer who inspired this thread) started to ask me to dance more. And it wasn't a half bad experience. Now we all regularly ask each other to dance. There are still a few "upper crust" dancers that stick to the people at their level, but I've got more than enough friends to keep me occupied for a decent night of social dancing.

As for the specific lead who inspired this thread, I've noticed over the year he's gotten a lot more sympathetic when working with newbies. He knows an insane amount about technique and theory and is a lot of fun to dance with, but as I think a couple of people in this thread alluded to, it's not enough to know vast amount of material if you can't adjust your lead for the follower's capabilities. I'm glad we both learned from this situation.

[jennyisdancing]

Wow, talk about resurrecting old ghosts. :)

I feel an update is in order. I have been taking group and private lessons for over a year now, and I'd say my dancing has certainly improved. What was interesting was that the dancer in question as well as many of the other highest level leads at the location in question pretty much left me alone for most of the better part of 2008. I'd stick to dancing with my classmates, visitors to the venue, or with my boyfriend who has a few more years of experience dancing than I do.

As I became more of a regular and got to being social with a good number of the dancers there, more folks would ask me to dance, and I grew more comfortable with asking other guys to dance with me. Sometime around maybe September or October of last year, the high level dancers who had previously ignored me (including the dancer who inspired this thread) started to ask me to dance more. And it wasn't a half bad experience. Now we all regularly ask each other to dance. There are still a few "upper crust" dancers that stick to the people at their level, but I've got more than enough friends to keep me occupied for a decent night of social dancing.


Similar for me, too. Though I am still annoyed at the leaders who think they're all that, and if they dance with me, they "test" me to see how many of their fancy moves/elaborate patterns I can follow. :rolleyes:
In fairness, I am also annoyed at the advanced followers who refuse to dance with beginners.

In any event, I have to depart from the advice I have seen in favor of getting out and doing a lot of social dancing as a beginner. I tried that, and it was no fun, plus it did not improve my dancing.

The good leaders wouldn't dance with me, so I sat a lot. A few of the beginners would dance with me, but then (no offense) it was the blind leading the blind. I decided it was a waste of time, so I focused on just taking lessons for a few months until I was comfortable in my basics and following skills. Then, when I returned to the dance floor, I was confident that it would be a pleasant experience for me and for my partners.

Keep in mind my comments refer to public dances that attract many people of all levels. Obviously it's different for a studio practice party where people already know each other from being in the same classes.

[Wyndstorm Huntress]

In any event, I have to depart from the advice I have seen in favor of getting out and doing a lot of social dancing as a beginner. I tried that, and it was no fun, plus it did not improve my dancing.

I agree. Jumping into the deep end from the get go leads to nothing but frustration and at worse, never wanting to social dance again. I had a love/hate relationship with social parties for the longest time because of this. I do wish my studio held practice parties rather than just social events where there was a huge divide between no-experience beginners and advanced, but no real place for the intermediate dancers.

[jennyisdancing]

I agree. Jumping into the deep end from the get go leads to nothing but frustration and at worse, never wanting to social dance again. I had a love/hate relationship with social parties for the longest time because of this. I do wish my studio held practice parties rather than just social events where there was a huge divide between no-experience beginners and advanced, but no real place for the intermediate dancers.

Interesting...I would say most of my area's social parties and studio parties attract advanced beginners and intermediates. There are very few people who are all the way at the ends of the scales. If you've had at least six months of lessons, you can keep up pretty well.

[elisedance]

What indicator should we use with you? ;)

When dancing - definitely crystal violet...

[Joe]

Similar for me, too. Though I am still annoyed at the leaders who think they're all that, and if they dance with me, they "test" me to see how many of their fancy moves/elaborate patterns I can follow. :rolleyes:
If no one pushes your following boundaries, how do you plan on improving?

[fascination]

yea...i don't mind the testing as long as his understanding of how to lead is...um...correct and attached to his body and well timed so that it is actually possible to use my following skills...then i love it

[jennyisdancing]

If no one pushes your following boundaries, how do you plan on improving?

Joe -

In terms of learning correct following technique, I do that in classes. In terms of being exposed to new social patterns and steps, of course I enjoy doing that at a dance. I'm not trying to say that I only want to follow familiar steps. My point, rather, had to do with the leader's approach i.e. that a few of them see it as a 'test' to make them look good or make me look bad, rather than simply as an enjoyable time.

[cornutt]

When dancing - definitely crystal violet...

Chemistry humor on DF! ;)

[wooh]

There's a difference between a lead seeing what we can do, and a lead testing what I can do. First is fun. Second, not so much.

[jennyisdancing]

There's a difference between a lead seeing what we can do, and a lead testing what I can do. First is fun. Second, not so much.

Exactly :)

[waltzguy]

Agree. A test is like a one way street. Teacher hands you piece of paper, good luck. Good social dancing is a conversation. Two way street, give and take.

[atk]

With all this talk about "testing" being bad, I've got a related question to make sure I'm not doing something wrong: When I first dance with a partner, I'll test the water, to see what I can lead that she'll follow (this even goes to considering how teh connection feels when we first take dance position). As the dance (or dances) progresses, I'll try out different leads and different patterns, seeing what works, and adjusting details of particular leads based on she responds. This is all with the goal of finding the highest possible level that we can attain, together.

So, in a way, this is testing my partner (though it's also testing myself and how I interact with this partner), to see what she knows, so that we can arrive at the most comfortable, most enjoyable dance possible.

Does this sound like the kind of testing you're talking about, or do you mean more leaders who are showing off to the people watching, rather than focusing on making things enjoyable for their partner?

[soshedances]

So, in a way, this is testing my partner (though it's also testing myself and how I interact with this partner), to see what she knows, so that we can arrive at the most comfortable, most enjoyable dance possible.


IMO, this is the good kind of testing and to me, this is good social dancing. :D

[wooh]

With all this talk about "testing" being bad, I've got a related question to make sure I'm not doing something wrong: When I first dance with a partner, I'll test the water, to see what I can lead that she'll follow (this even goes to considering how teh connection feels when we first take dance position). As the dance (or dances) progresses, I'll try out different leads and different patterns, seeing what works, and adjusting details of particular leads based on she responds. This is all with the goal of finding the highest possible level that we can attain, together.

So, in a way, this is testing my partner (though it's also testing myself and how I interact with this partner), to see what she knows, so that we can arrive at the most comfortable, most enjoyable dance possible.

Does this sound like the kind of testing you're talking about, or do you mean more leaders who are showing off to the people watching, rather than focusing on making things enjoyable for their partner?

Highlighted part being what makes the difference. You're testing what the two of you can do together. It's a different attitude from "what can she do?" Example, I know a guy that can give a clear lead, but will see how little of a lead he can give and the woman will still follow it. Not to test his leading skills, but to test her following skills. Sorry buddy, but it's a dance, not an exam. Experimenting with what you can do is fine and acceptable. Testing me, to see if I'm "good enough" is not.

[atk]

Cool - thanks for the clarification :) .


Example, I know a guy that can give a clear lead, but will see how little of a lead he can give and the woman will still follow it.
Wooh, that sounds an awful strange thing to do. I'm mildly curious what reason he has for doing that - has he ever offered a verbal explanation? (I'm guessing that "he's testing" is your impression of his behavior, not necessarially the reason he gives).

[waltzguy]

atk,

By testing I mean when a leader just does his stuff without regard to a lady's ability or level, and doesn't make adjustments. Kinda like saying "he dances for himself".

And there's "good testing", which I meant by a conversation.

[wooh]

Cool - thanks for the clarification :) .

Wooh, that sounds an awful strange thing to do. I'm mildly curious what reason he has for doing that - has he ever offered a verbal explanation? (I'm guessing that "he's testing" is your impression of his behavior, not necessarially the reason he gives).

There's a long story to how I know it's what he's doing, but it's exactly what he's doing. As for his reasons, I believe that he learned it from one of the male instructors in town who does that in lessons. And I believe he thinks he's "helping" women to become better followers by doing it. Which is what annoys me so much about it, because it's basically teaching on the dance floor.

[waltzgirl]

You should return the favor: "help" him become a better leader by refusing to follow any lead that isn't clear.

[elisedance]

I think you may be being too hard on him. A truly skilled leader can lead a tallented but untrained follower into open material - I know this is true from seeing Joe Jenkins do it years ago. However, this requires the extremes of lead to ensure that the follower 'gets the message'. Contrast that to dancing at blackpool where there you can not see any evidence that the lead is actually leading - the communication has become so subtle that the two are truly dancing as one.

Of course I don't know the person you are referring to so my interpretation may be wrong but he may be exploring the 'essence of leading' what does he really need to provide to get the follow to follow and what is superfluous. In that case he is not teaching anyone except himself. Indeed, I would love it to be treated that way - for him to test me and see what 'strength' of lead I need to follow. By establishing that he lets me actually dance at my best.

[and123]

You should return the favor: "help" him become a better leader by refusing to follow any lead that isn't clear.

Ohhhh, they LOVE that :rolleyes:

[nucat78]

Unless they guy's just a jerk. In which case, he could be perfectly capable of dancing at your level and helping you out, but chooses not to. But...that just makes him a jerk.

Ok, confession time. There is one visiting follow who insists on asking me to dance even though I've tried many times to avoid her / gracefully decline for a number of reasons. She'll even jump in front of people I'm approaching to ask for a dance.

So... Last time she "cornered' me for an Argentine, I threw everything I knew at her in the hopes she'll be dissuaded from asking again. Put me in the jerk category.

<BOT>

[etp777]

More importantly nucat, did it work? :)

[nucat78]

More importantly nucat, did it work? :)

Time will tell. :rolleyes: I really dislike being rude...

[tanya_the_dancer]

Ok, confession time. There is one visiting follow who insists on asking me to dance even though I've tried many times to avoid her / gracefully decline for a number of reasons. She'll even jump in front of people I'm approaching to ask for a dance.

So... Last time she "cornered' me for an Argentine, I threw everything I knew at her in the hopes she'll be dissuaded from asking again. Put me in the jerk category.

<BOT>

I wonder what would be an equivalent of that for a follow.

[cornutt]

I wonder what would be an equivalent of that for a follow.

Backlead. Lean on his frame. Noodle arms. ;)

[etp777]

noodle arms or really heavy follows are the worst imo

[Stagekat]

I agree from the followers perspective... although I think noodle arms is probably one of my biggest pet peeves. IMHO of course.

[fascination]

noodle arms with gold moves...hatehatehate