Stupid question

[Peaches]

This happened to me a couple of times in my lesson yesterday, and I'm not sure how to help myself with this. Hopefully, some of you guys will have experienced the same thing and can lend some sage advice.

There were times (a lot of them, actually) in my lesson where I was so focused on the music, and my technique, and following one step at a time (this was AT, of course), that I'd manage to lose myself completely in the moment. Normally, this is a good thing, except if my teacher would stop to comment on something (either good or bad)...I kept finding that I had no freakin' clue what I'd just done. I might remember one or two steps back (if only because I could figure out how I got to where I happened to be standing when he stopped me), but no real idea of what had preceded it...or what I might have done that was particularly good or bad about it. It's not that I'm not paying attention, but it's like as soon as a step is completed it's gone from my mind. So, when he'd comment about how I did something, I was totally at a loss as to what it was he was commenting on.

So.

Does this happen to anyone else out there? Have you found any tricks for dealing with it? Or am I just being my usual space-cadet self? I kept having to ask him just what he was talking about, because I honestly didn't remember what it was he'd just led. Very annoying.

[etp777]

Definitely happens to me too, and haven't yet found a great fix for it. I tend to only worry about it if the comment was on bad side. If it's on good side, and it's situation like this where it jsut flowed so naturally I don't even remember what I did, I figure that's fine. It's a little frustrating as I can't pinpoint exactly what was good, but I tell msyefl since the good flowed out so naturally, that's alright. When it's a bad thing, I haven't found a good fix yet. Except of course to video the lesson. Doesn't happen quite as much as a lead though, suspect it's even harder on women, as the better a follow you are, guessing it will happen more, the follow just comes naturally.

[Peaches]

At least I'm not the only one. :D

Either we're both normal, or both crazy, huh?:rolleyes:

[elisedance]

Peaches - I think you just trasported to the World Of True Following. Thats where the link between the lead and your feet has no connection whatsoever with your (thinking) brain. Small wonder you can't remember it - you never actually thought about it when you were doing it.

The only solution I know is to go over the step again conciously - perhaps out of the full hold so that you are forced to cerebrate....

Hey, and congrats on reaching AT nirvana... :)

[Peaches]

Peaches - I think you just trasported to the World Of True Following. Thats where the link between the lead and your feet has no connection whatsoever with your (thinking) brain. Small wonder you can't remember it - you never actually thought about it when you were doing it.

The only solution I know is to go over the step again conciously - perhaps out of the full hold so that you are forced to cerebrate....

Hey, and congrats on reaching AT nirvana... :)Wow...what a hella positive spin on things, Elise! Do you work in advertising? Media relations? Campaign management somewhere?

Yeah, definitely not thinking about what I'm doing...just how I'm doing things, in a general/fundamental sense.

[elisedance]

Wow...what a hella positive spin on things, Elise! Do you work in advertising? Media relations? Campaign management somewhere?


I'm in science - and sadly spin is rather important there infact its now an integral element. Not only do you have to discover things, you have to market them to convince others that what you discovered is important. I hate doing it and I'm not very good at it either as I'm always held back by what I think science should really be (communal pursuit of truth? Yes, I'm very old fashioned). However, I'm actually quite good at it (marketing) in other areas - it could have been a career, and I did think of it, but I don't think I would ever have been comfortable with myself if I had...

However, that is all irrelevant because unlike the norm in advertising :rolleyels: I actually meant what I said!

[waltzgirl]

I agree with ed. My sister and I call it the "Zen of Following." It's a good thing! Just keep asking him to explain what he's referring to. I don't imagine he has a problem with that.

In ballroom, you do eventually get to the point of following just one step at a time, too. I wonder if you'd like learning ballroom better if it were taught like AT. It would certainly be possible to teach it that way.

[Chris Stratton]

This is not even unique to following. I will often forget what material I just lead, but remember the ways in which it did or didn't work.

[danceronice]

I don't even think it's a dance or follow thing. I do it in skating all the time--I will do something, my coach will ask me to repeat it, and I'll have no recollection of what I've just done.

[etp777]

Glad you chimed in, Chris. I was starting to worry that I was only lead who identified with this problem, was worried that Peaches was right and I am crazy. :)

[elisedance]

Now I'm a little scared - if both of us are in zen land who's minding the shop?

Oh, and we still think you are a little crazy etp, but don't worry, from what I've seen its a required thing in a leader!

[Chris Stratton]

Now I'm a little scared - if both of us are in zen land who's minding the shop?


What specifically needs minding? In most circumstances there's nobody standing there with a checklist of compulsory figures you were supposed to demonstrate.

So what's wrong with just dancing when it works?

[fascination]

peaches...I think your key points are that sometimes there are so many things you are juggling that you can't possibly keep track of those things and actually still know where you are in a movement...but the how is more important IMO than the where..so I advise that you get over feeling stupid about not knowing exactly where you are anyhow...I am finding that, as others have said the key really is only where you are positionally from one step (as in a single step not a pattern) to the next...and there is something divine about doing that well and suddenly finding oneself at the end of the floor having only know that you danced with rather than know what or how you executed it...probably the greatest experience of my dancing to date ...and it is one thing to articulate it...it is another to be ready to do it...beyond that...folks talk in different languages and folks who concentrate are concentrating in their own language so when you stop and your pro has all sort of observations that are foreign to youmaybe you want to say "buddy, just walk me back through the segment to which you are referring"...doesn't seem like a crime or an admission of low intelligence

[Peaches]

Huh...

Guess maybe I should stop trying to find a way to separate out part of my thinking to keep track of what's going on, and just rely on him to recap it for me. *shrug* That works.

It's odd in that it's a completely different zoning out (zen, as others have put it) from when I'm social dancing and I hit that high. In that case it's about the complete opposite--focusing so much on each individual step and just enjoying the moment and forgetting about the technique. (Trusting it to happen or not. That's what practice and lessons are for--getting the technique to the point where it happens without thinking about it.) Here, it's like I'm focusing so much on the technique of each step I lose track of the rest of it.

But, hey...if it's not just me and work-arounds are a legit way of dealing...I'll take that. Thanks, peeps.

[elisedance]

What specifically needs minding? In most circumstances there's nobody standing there with a checklist of compulsory figures you were supposed to demonstrate.

So what's wrong with just dancing when it works?


Mostly it was a funny observation chris :) There are surely few things more heavenly than getting to the point where one dances beautifully without conscious thought about steps, technique, routines, floorcraft, musicality, expression and any other controlled processes. Achieving this comes up every now and then on the forum - reaching dance nirvana or whatever - and it is not that rare during a social dance when I can let myself go. However, I usually think of this as something I can achieve - I'm jusr realizing that that is both selfish and naive. To be honest, I had never even thought as to whether the lead had the same experience - which I am rapidly learning here. Thus, the real 'ultimate dance' would surely be where both partners reach this state at the same time.

[fascination]

Huh...

Guess maybe I should stop trying to find a way to separate out part of my thinking to keep track of what's going on, and just rely on him to recap it for me. *shrug* That works.

It's odd in that it's a completely different zoning out (zen, as others have put it) from when I'm social dancing and I hit that high. In that case it's about the complete opposite--focusing so much on each individual step and just enjoying the moment and forgetting about the technique. (Trusting it to happen or not. That's what practice and lessons are for--getting the technique to the point where it happens without thinking about it.) Here, it's like I'm focusing so much on the technique of each step I lose track of the rest of it.

But, hey...if it's not just me and work-arounds are a legit way of dealing...I'll take that. Thanks, peeps.ya know...I think it is less about zoning out and more about being single-mindedly committed to what it takes to be connected in the partnership..."I will stay with you, I will not worry about what is happening, I will milk the moments with my technique, but dancing WITH you is my only concern"......yum.....

[elisedance]

I think you are bang on fasc. for us its all about following. Then for the lead what is it (zen) about?

[fascination]

as I tell pro ...am going to leave that with him...I have enough problems of my own

[Peaches]

I think you are bang on fasc. for us its all about following. Then for the lead what is it (zen) about?That's a damn good question.

Now and again I think I should really learn to lead AT, to give me greater perspective on following, blah blah blah. I've been putting that off, and putting that off...not fussed if I never get to it. I love the follower's nirvana too much; why would I want to give that up?

I now understand my first teacher's reaction when I asked about women learning to lead. He couldn't understand why we'd want to, when the man willingly and happily takes the responsibility of it, so we can be free to enjoy ourselves. (Do I have to turn in my feminist card, now? :-) )

[etp777]

For lead it's the same, but different. You're still feeling the dance, and it's just happening. As a follow, you're just flowing along with the lead and doing what he leads without thinking. With the lead, when I'm really doing it right, it's exactly opposite of guys we're talking about in other thread. I'm just flowing from step to step (or parttern to pattern) with no concious thought. And it's changing by floorcraft, by music, whatever. This is actually something that I'm always trying hard for, because I'm very analytical, and it's hard for me to jsut be in the moment with my elad like this. heh, each page of my notes on smooth dances actually has a table of floorcraft stuff, which steps flow into each other with a smooth transition, what steps I can use to break out halfway through a pattern if someone's in the way, etc. But that's a matter of thinking it all out ahead of time. Leads version of this zen is when there is no thought, it all just happens, something as simple as a dip at appropriate part of music, or smooth transitions to do a twinkle and chasee around a slwoer couple, or whatever, all without concious thought.

[elisedance]

For lead it's the same, but different. You're still feeling the dance, and it's just happening. As a follow, you're just flowing along with the lead and doing what he leads without thinking. With the lead, when I'm really doing it right, it's exactly opposite of guys we're talking about in other thread. I'm just flowing from step to step (or parttern to pattern) with no concious thought. And it's changing by floorcraft, by music, whatever. This is actually something that I'm always trying hard for, because I'm very analytical, and it's hard for me to jsut be in the moment with my elad like this. heh, each page of my notes on smooth dances actually has a table of floorcraft stuff, which steps flow into each other with a smooth transition, what steps I can use to break out halfway through a pattern if someone's in the way, etc. But that's a matter of thinking it all out ahead of time. Leads version of this zen is when there is no thought, it all just happens, something as simple as a dip at appropriate part of music, or smooth transitions to do a twinkle and chasee around a slwoer couple, or whatever, all without concious thought.

:rocker::rocker::rocker::rocker:

etp - terrific post. really helps me to understand...

[etp777]

Happy to help. :)

[Angel HI]

For lead it's the same, but different. You're still feeling the dance, and it's just happening. As a follow, you're just flowing along with the lead and doing what he leads without thinking.

Much of etp's post...the above parts, I believe to be spot on. I have sparked opposition on the DF with this point before, but the ultimate point of lead is in the follow that integrally occurs within. The Zen for us is exactly the same as it is for the female. Etp's best line describes this perfectly ....

With the lead, .... I'm just flowing from step to step...it all just happens, ...without conscious thought.

[elisedance]

AH: will you dance with me? :)

[skwiggy]

This happens to me often, especially while competing. During practice I am usually focused very hard on one thing or another at any given time. So if I'm focused so hard on the one thing I'm trying to do, I fail to notice everything else going on or am quick to forget what we just did a second ago. In competition it's different. Sometimes I get in the performance zone where I'm playing to the crowd, enjoying the music, etc. I get totally lost and all of a sudden come back to reality and realize I have no idea what part of our routine we're in or where we just came from.

[Peaches]

Yay! Another vote for "It's Not Just Me!"

[skwiggy]

DEFINITELY not just you.

[fascination]

lol...we would like to think we are so unique...but we aren't...not all the way at least

[Peaches]

Not so much thinking I'm so unique...just a low-grade, relatively constant paranoia that others around me are getting things that I just...don't. Lol.

[skwiggy]

Not so much thinking I'm so unique...just a low-grade, relatively constant paranoia that others around me are getting things that I just...don't. Lol.

Wait... is that not normal? :p

[etp777]

Sure is here for me. :)

[fascination]

Wait... is that not normal? :pthere ya go

[Angel HI]

AH: will you dance with me? :)

I am so flattered that you ask. It would be my pleasure, Madam.
http://www.funfilesandsmiles.com/smileys/0923.gif

[cornutt]

Leads version of this zen is when there is no thought, it all just happens, something as simple as a dip at appropriate part of music, or smooth transitions to do a twinkle and chasee around a slwoer couple, or whatever, all without concious thought.

I keep bringing up that Robert Fripp quote: "When it's going well, I'm not playing music; rather, music is playing through me." It's kind of like that. I actually don't get to experience it very much in dancing. Actually, one thing that kind of ticks me off is that when I do get into one of those zen moments, I'll sometimes lead some on-the-spur-of-the-moment thing that I've never led before, and then later, I can't reconstruct how I did it.

[Angel HI]

As frustrating as that might seem, do not be ticked off at it, rather revel in the knowledge that you are arrivign to a place where that is possible. When tutoring french, I tell the students that it is a wonderful thing when they are able to just listen and respond without thought. Then, and only then, are they really speaking french. Reread this, and replace the proper words. You'll like it.