Why Does Strictly Come Dancing Have AT? [Archive]

12-17-2007, 01:41 PM

First I want to say, I do not want this thread to become a "Ballroom people do not, cannot, or will not, respect/understand AT." I really don't want to go there, mainly because I don't believe it. My coach is walking proof that yes, you can have it all. One day, I want to have it all, too. (Hey, a girl can dream!)

So, does anybody know about the show "Strictly Come Dancing"? Is there a reason they include Argentine Tango and the American version (Dancing With the Stars) does not? I would really appreciate an answer to this, because what I saw on these YouTube clips floored me.

Here we have Alesha Dixon and Matthew Cutler (start dancing at 3:10):

c2-I85De9mM

For those who are not familiar with the show (I am not) Matthew is the professional dancer.

Here is Gethin Jones & Camilla Dallerup (start dancing at 3:05)

Zg-fAKOPLIk

Camilla is the professional dancer.

What on Earth is going on here?

I am by no means implying these dancers are bad - I am saying they obviously have extremely limited knowledge in AT, and it shows, badly. Is there a strong reason why AT is included on this version of the show? I do not see where the skill level of the professionals justifies adding it. Tradition doesn't justify it, either - generally AT in the dancesport world is just one of those 'throwaway fun dance heats' in competition.

Anyway, not looking for trouble... not looking to 'badmouth' professional ballroom dancers... just looking for answers, because what my eyes see truly puzzles me.

Peaches

12-17-2007, 02:20 PM

The million-dollar question, eh?

Why they feel it should be included when (AFAIK) the rest of the dancing is all ballroom is beyond me. Maybe because "Argentine Tango" sounds sexier? Dunno.

cornutt

12-17-2007, 03:30 PM

They may not call it AT as such, but I've seen a fair amount of Argentine steps in tango routines on DWTS. As far as excluded dances, my complaint about DWTS is why they have never included WCS.

kieronneedscake

12-17-2007, 03:34 PM

That's a very nice warble in the sound track of the first clip. Hurrah for massive compression of Youtube.

I'll wager that the pros doing this could learn AT very quickly, if only they did more than just copy and reconstruct things they've seen, which is how I would describe what I have seen.

Focusing more on the show as a whole, AT is the wildcard. It's thrown in perhaps because none of them have a clue, and therefore it's a challenge to the teachers as well as the students. So far they have saved it for the semi-finals only I think, and it's an acid test for everyone concerned.

This one from last year was better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjQPbFmYmb8
A bit more convincing. Perhaps they were hoping for more like that.

Maybe the producers like the music?

12-17-2007, 03:50 PM

Focusing more on the show as a whole, AT is the wildcard. It's thrown in perhaps because none of them have a clue, and therefore it's a challenge to the teachers as well as the students. So far they have saved it for the semi-finals only I think, and it's an acid test for everyone concerned.

Ah! Well, that certainly makes more sense. Thank you!

That is an interesting element, to challenge both the pros and the contestants.

How does this work? Since this is a specialized wildcard challenge, do they bring in AT masters to coach the pros and contestants as a couple?

12-17-2007, 03:53 PM

They may not call it AT as such, but I've seen a fair amount of Argentine steps in tango routines on DWTS.

I love it when they do that! I almost put my foot through the television a few seasons ago when Tia's routine was called "a bit too Argentinian." Pfft!

As far as excluded dances, my complaint about DWTS is why they have never included WCS.

I know if they did that, people would love it. Or hate it. Or, both. :D I'd love to see it added.

Twirly

12-17-2007, 03:59 PM

Focusing more on the show as a whole, AT is the wildcard. It's thrown in perhaps because none of them have a clue, and therefore it's a challenge to the teachers as well as the students. So far they have saved it for the semi-finals only I think, and it's an acid test for everyone concerned.

They had salsa too a couple of months ago, right? So they must have more than one wildcard.

And the pro of the third couple in the semi was Flavia - twice "show tango world champion" or whatever ... So I suppose it wouldn't be so much of a challenge for her compared to the other two pros.

kieronneedscake

12-17-2007, 04:10 PM

Hey, it's not a fair competition anyway, seeing as how the pretty/handsome win the public vote...

Besides, Flavia wasn't all that impressive anyway. I wonder if that's world champion like the baseball world series?

Peaches

12-17-2007, 07:20 PM

Regarding the first video: She leads herself rather nicely!

Regarding the second video: Chicky!!! Keep your friggin' feet on the friggin' floor. She looks like a flamingo.

etp777

12-17-2007, 07:29 PM

As far as excluded dances, my complaint about DWTS is why they have never included WCS.

Now that's a somewhat interesting question. I don't watch very regularly, and for some reason i had in my head that they stuck to the regular ten of an International ten-dance. But looking at ABC's site right now, looks like they also have Mambo in there. So not really limited to ten-dance, but not everything in American either (No bolero). Since theyr'e not sticking to either of the regular gruopings, not sure why they wouldn't include WCS. Can't do it myself, but sure as heck enjoy watching it, would think producers would have it on the show, at least occasionally.

Peaches

12-17-2007, 07:33 PM

They may not call it AT as such, but I've seen a fair amount of Argentine steps in tango routines on DWTS. As far as excluded dances, my complaint about DWTS is why they have never included WCS.I think I'd rather have AT excluded, same as WCS, honestly.

etp777

12-17-2007, 07:35 PM

Heh, you might be right, esp for some of the pros. I know Tony and Elena (and Jesse when he was on) can all do WCS, dont' know about AT. And don't know about any of the other pros, so maybe it's best to avoid these. Won't stop me from learning them though. :)

Peaches

12-17-2007, 07:42 PM

Well, in keeping with Me's request, I don't want to turn this into Ballroom Dancer Bashing.

These pros are talented. No doubt about it. I have every confidence that they could learn it perfectly well if they focused on it. (And, probably, stopped trying to treat it as a variation on ballroom tango or some such.) They're bringing tremendous amounts of talent and ability to the table.

That said...I don't like seeing "them" represent AT to the world like this. Would anyone have them get up and do a ballet performance? No, it would be absurd, it's not what they do. So why is it OK for people with no clue to represent AT...just because it's a partner dance and they're partner dancers? Not acceptable. (Again...I am not trying to trash the pros...just the TV people who make these decisions.)

Yes, I know it's a TV show and it's all pretty much crap to begin with. I am sort of realistic. But just the same, they find pros in the correct field to teach the ballroom...why can't they just stick with that? Or, find actual AT "pros" to do the ballroom portion? I find it very disrespectful.

Edit to add: And, as someone who's had to deal with family nonsense enough with the dancing, I don't like seeing AT portrayed as this overtly sexy, sexual dance. Yes, I know it's TV. Yes, I have a personal stake in this. But it's so far from what AT truly is, it just grates on my last nerve.

etp777

12-17-2007, 07:46 PM

Oh, can definitely agree with that. That's why i was just commenting on WCS, because I know these three at least already know it. :)

I suspect the pros would agree with you. Know one of them was supposed to teach Bachata at an event local to them, and for almost these exact reasons, decided to have someone else from their home studio teach it. Least, that's what I was told, I know they decided not to teach it (and couple tehy sent in their place did a great job).

Now a really interesting variation would be to go to multiple pros to introduce other dances rather than just the ballroom ones they do. AT, CW(chacha/waltz/polka/whatever), Lindy, WCS, Zydeco, etc. So many other things they could do to interest more variety. And now that we've said that, watch us see Lambada, Cumbia and Zydeco next season with guest pros dancing with the celebrities. :)

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 03:51 AM

Why they feel it should be included when (AFAIK) the rest of the dancing is all ballroom is beyond me.
They also have salsa, around Week 5, and they have a showdance in the final which is freestyle. In addition they have American Smooth, which is not on the standard UK 10-dance curriculum - plus they have other group dances which may not be included in the 10-dance list.

I don't have a problem with them including other dances - especially AT, as it promotes our dance to a wider audience, what's wrong with that?

Although I do have a problem with the judging - for those "non-ballroom" dances, I'd like to see a guest judge who actually knows what they're talking about to provide some context.

Angel HI

12-18-2007, 03:51 AM

The OP's question is a good one. Of course, the answer is because SCD is a fad hyped, television reality program, and not really about "good" or "proper" dance. AT is the parent, to whatever degree, of Amer. and Intern. Tango, and currently (save for Salsa) the most popular, nontraditional BR dance. As for why not WCS, it is because WCS is not considered a BR dance. At BR comps (not Swing comps), it is in the just for fun category along with Hustle, Pony Swing (C/W), and such.

To watch SCD and not bash the pros dancing AT is Strictly Not Happening. These dancers suck at AT, and it is a disgrace given their obvious BR and DS latin talents. Peaches' post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=504506&postcount=13 is spot on in every sense. These dancers probably have the abilities to learn this dance, and not go on national tel dancing AT with BR / DS toplines, etc. Respect the dance by at least pretending to want to learn it and perform it well.

Kneedscake posted that these pros probably could learn AT quickly. I doubt that. He also posted, in response to MBB's "Flavia was a 2 time world champion", that she wasn't all that impressive. To that I will agree most heartedly. 2 time AT World Showdance Champion in what world? I am not Flavia bashing. I would ask the same questions if Irina Kolesnikova danced Slow Fox in releve on her beautifully straightened ballet legs.

Angel HI

12-18-2007, 04:02 AM

Although I do have a problem with the judging - for those "non-ballroom" dances, I'd like to see a guest judge who actually knows what they're talking about to provide some context.

And THIS is the thing that makes me CRAZY! Len is not a public fav on DWTS, and on SCD, he is a hypocrit of the top order. He will bash every good tango on DWTS that is, "...a bit too Argentine for my taste...", but in the UK, praise these stiff legged, nonexistant technically correct AT performances as, "...capturing the essence of what the Argentine Tango is supposed to be..."

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0185.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/freesmiley.php?smiley=mad/mad0185.gif)

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 07:11 AM

And THIS is the thing that makes me CRAZY! Len is not a public fav on DWTS, and on SCD, he is a hypocrit of the top order.
Yeah, I've gone off Len this series (of SCD) too - in fact, the only judge I like is Craig, because he actually marks a full range. Giving Matt an 8 for his foxtrot in the quarter-finals, when he completely messed it up, is insulting to everyone who's worked hard to get a good mark.

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 07:18 AM

AT is the parent, to whatever degree, of Amer. and Intern. Tango
Are there two variants of Ballroom Tango then? I thought it was just the one dance.:confused:

and currently (save for Salsa) the most popular, nontraditional BR dance.
Why are AT and salsa considered ballroom dances, and WCS is not? I don't get it - to me, they're all living partner dances. To me, WCS is no less respectable than salsa, for example.

Re: Flavia:
To that I will agree most heartedly. 2 time AT World Showdance Champion in what world? I am not Flavia bashing. I would ask the same questions if Irina Kolesnikova danced Slow Fox in releve on her beautifully straightened ballet legs.
If you look at their site (http://www.vincentandflavia.com/about.html), it lists their achievements as:

UK Professional Ten Dance Champions 2002-2006
UK Professional Showdance Champions 2003-2006
UK Argentine Tango Champions 2006 (First time competition has ever been held)
World Argentine Tango Show Champions 2005/2006
UK Ballroom Champions
World and European Ten Dance and Showdance finalists 2002 - 2006(emphasis mine)

But I don't know anything about how respected any of these championships are - does anyone have a link to the AT ones?

Peaches

12-18-2007, 07:28 AM

I don't have a problem with them including other dances - especially AT, as it promotes our dance to a wider audience, what's wrong with that?Phrased like that, nothing is wrong with it. Hell, I'd love to see AT promoted to a wide audience.

I just want them to use pros who actually know how to do a [foxtrotting] AT. I'm sure there are plenty of legit AT dancers out there who would give their eye teeth for the kind of publicity and promotion that a pro on the show gets. So why on god's green earth have they chosen to take people who have no [foxtrotting] clue about it and use them to showcase the dance.

So...since the producers (or whoever is responsible for it) aren't willing to give even basic respect to the dance and those who are masters of it...I'd rather not see it included. Either do it right, or don't do it.

Oh...and I don't know about any of that AT World Champion stuff, but I call b.s. until I have a better idea of what all that entails. 'Cuz...b.s.

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 08:44 AM

I just want them to use pros who actually know how to do a [foxtrotting] AT.
I'm not sure how that'd be achievable within the SCD format? I mean, it's not realistic to change pro partners just for one dance.

And to be fair, V&F do know AT - I've no idea how respected their titles are, but I don't believe they're making them up or anything. I'd be interested if people have a link to those championships - I Googled for them but nothing came up.

So...since the producers (or whoever is responsible for it) aren't willing to give even basic respect to the dance and those who are masters of it...I'd rather not see it included. Either do it right, or don't do it.
I know what you mean, but I'd rather have something AT-esque being shown, even if it's not great, than nothing.

FWIW, the salsa had equal problems - dodgy style, looked more like a samba sometimes, taught by people I don't respect - but, again, I preferred to see something than nothing.

Oh...and I don't know about any of that AT World Champion stuff, but I call b.s. until I have a better idea of what all that entails. 'Cuz...b.s.
Well, I'm a bit more "benefit of the doubt" than you - but I'm just a beginner.

Twirly

12-18-2007, 10:01 AM

Are there two variants of Ballroom Tango then? I thought it was just the one dance.:confused:

Why are AT and salsa considered ballroom dances, and WCS is not? I don't get it - to me, they're all living partner dances. To me, WCS is no less respectable than salsa, for example.

Re: Flavia:

If you look at their site (http://www.vincentandflavia.com/about.html), it lists their achievements as:

(emphasis mine)

But I don't know anything about how respected any of these championships are - does anyone have a link to the AT ones?

The UK championship was last summer in Negracha. Not many people turned up. There was a discussion on this in the tango uk mailing list recently.

Nobody seems to be able to say what the world champs show tango thing is.

bastet

12-18-2007, 10:25 AM

Are there two variants of Ballroom Tango then? I thought it was just the one dance.:confused:

Why are AT and salsa considered ballroom dances, and WCS is not? I don't get it - to me, they're all living partner dances. To me, WCS is no less respectable than salsa, for example.

Re: Flavia:

If you look at their site (http://www.vincentandflavia.com/about.html), it lists their achievements as:

(emphasis mine)

But I don't know anything about how respected any of these championships are - does anyone have a link to the AT ones?

http://tangodata.gov.ar/

and the individial results for salon (hey! Italy came in the top 10!)- one of the rules being no legs lifted past the knee I believe (no ganchos)
http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/resultados_mundial_2007/salon_final_vuelta2_puesto.php

and I'm assuming stage is the other category, with Italy and Japan having placements in the top 10:

http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/resultados_mundial_2007/escenario_final_puesto.php

No one from Britain or America on either list that I could see...

cornutt

12-18-2007, 11:10 AM

As for why not WCS, it is because WCS is not considered a BR dance. At BR comps (not Swing comps), it is in the just for fun category along with Hustle, Pony Swing (C/W), and such.

I have to take exception to this. I've been to a number of comps where WCS (bolero too) is danced as part of the core rhytym group, including being part of multi-dance events.

cornutt

12-18-2007, 11:14 AM

So...since the producers (or whoever is responsible for it) aren't willing to give even basic respect to the dance and those who are masters of it...I'd rather not see it included. Either do it right, or don't do it.

I don't know; if we're going to restrict the pros to just the styles that they are expert at, then we're pretty much restricting the whole show to just Latin. Most of the pros on DWTS aren't expert at standard, smooth, or swing either.

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 11:36 AM

I don't know; if we're going to restrict the pros to just the styles that they are expert at, then we're pretty much restricting the whole show to just Latin. Most of the pros on DWTS aren't expert at standard, smooth, or swing either.
Yeah - In SCD, there are specialists as well, it seems to be more weighted towards the Latin also. Maybe because Latin specialists work better on TV, visually?

Dave Bailey

12-18-2007, 11:38 AM

The UK championship was last summer in Negracha. Not many people turned up. There was a discussion on this in the tango uk mailing list recently.
Ah, right - fair enough. Thanks for the info, I vaguely recall hearing about that at the time now you mention it.

cornutt

12-18-2007, 11:52 AM

Yeah - In SCD, there are specialists as well, it seems to be more weighted towards the Latin also. Maybe because Latin specialists work better on TV, visually?

I think it more likely that because the Latin dancing comes across better on TV, they want that part to be as good as possible.

jfm

12-18-2007, 11:57 AM

Twirly

12-18-2007, 01:02 PM

I think they should have asked some of the many actual argentinian argentine tango teachers/professionals working in London (who don't need to claim they'd won things to show how good they are) to do the demo. At least then the show case dance would have been decent and would have given the viewers a better idea of tango. If you are comparing what the contestants did to the demo, they weren't that bad. but only because the demo was lame.

But the couple who did the demo ARE Argentine tango pros and teachers, apparently.

I've seen some pretty awful demos done by teachers here in London, so that might have been embarrassing. Maybe someone from a stage show like Tango por dos.

bordertangoman

12-18-2007, 01:34 PM

I have to say the judges remind me of the two old men in the muppets.

bordertangoman

12-18-2007, 01:39 PM

Regarding the second video: Chicky!!! Keep your friggin' feet on the friggin' floor. She looks like a flamingo.

an apt description ;such thin legs!

Ampster

12-19-2007, 03:31 AM

First time I've seen these videos. Not good. Even the pro's lack a grasp of basic AT technique. Too "ballroomey."

Yliander

12-19-2007, 04:40 AM

Angel HI

12-19-2007, 05:05 AM

I have to take exception to this. I've been to a number of comps where WCS (bolero too) is danced as part of the core rhytym group, including being part of multi-dance events.

Agreed. Yet, I know that these often...not always, aren't viewed/judged as seriously as the other main dances.

Dave Bailey

12-19-2007, 05:14 AM

I think they should have asked some of the many actual argentinian argentine tango teachers/professionals working in London (who don't need to claim they'd won things to show how good they are) to do the demo.
Actually, yes, I'd have liked to see someone other than V&F doing the demo, personally - if only to show that there are lots of other great AT dancers around London, it's not just those two.

I think it more likely that because the Latin dancing comes across better on TV, they want that part to be as good as possible.
Yes, that's what I was trying to say :)

Angel HI

12-19-2007, 05:17 AM

Are there two variants of Ballroom Tango then? I thought it was just the one dance.

Not sure what you mean, here. I was referring to american and international. Though I started with the intern., I do realize that it doesn't adhere at all to the principles of AT or amer. tango.

Why are AT and salsa considered ballroom dances, and WCS is not?

I don't know. I believe it should be. The lack of a true rhythm division in amer. syllabi and comps could be the reason re WCS.

Re: Flavia:
If you look at their site (http://www.vincentandflavia.com/about.html), it lists their achievements

Don't know about this either other than that this comp was not well recognized until more recently. Her AT is way underdeveloped, or at the least, was not displayed well on SCD.

timbp

12-19-2007, 06:00 AM

This whole discussion reminds me of last year's Australian "Dancing with the stars".

My WCS teacher choreographed and taught the group a WCS routine. None of the dancers (pros or competitors) had done WCS before (although maybe some of the pros had done some ballroom WCS).

In the actual broadcast, the show had run overtime, so the competitors were shown doing the routine (which they did quite badly, many of them noticeable out of time), but the teacher's dancing was not shown, so viewers did not get to see what WCS should really look like.

I suspect much the same thing has happened in this program.

Tim

Dave Bailey

12-19-2007, 06:42 AM

Not sure what you mean, here. I was referring to american and international.
Yes, that's what I mean - I didn't realise that there were two flavours of Ballroom Tango (American and International).

Don't know about this either other than that this comp was not well recognized until more recently. Her AT is way underdeveloped, or at the least, was not displayed well on SCD.
I'm not experienced enough to judge the relative merits of pros - but here's a demo they did last year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wH3Gw9H_eY

I liked it, personally.

Twirly

12-19-2007, 09:30 AM

Actually, yes, I'd have liked to see someone other than V&F doing the demo, personally - if only to show that there are lots of other great AT dancers around London, it's not just those two.

In the first ever (?) tango demo on Strictly Come Dancing there were three couples. First Flavia and Vincent, and then two others. The man in the second couple and the woman in the third are well-known Argentine Tango teachers in London. How do you think they did compared to F&V?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0DVZASBkM

Let's not forget that it's a show and even though there are some good social dancers in London it's not what the audience want to see. And being a good teacher doesn't mean you're able to perform on telly with no nerves or mistakes. But as I said before I think the best option would be to invite dancers from a tango show, such as tango por dos who regularly perform in London, to do the show. That way we'd get trained Argentine tango dancers who are well used to performing, even if the style of tango still wouldn't necessarily be to everyone's taste.

Dave Bailey

12-19-2007, 10:39 AM

In the first ever (?) tango demo on Strictly Come Dancing there were three couples. First Flavia and Vincent, and then two others. The man in the second couple and the woman in the third are well-known Argentine Tango teachers in London.
Yes, Giraldo and Kicca (not giving any secrets away there, as their names are on the clip :D)

How do you think they did compared to F&V?
Interestingly, I discussed this elsewhere. My view was that V&F were clearly showcased - they had the lion's share of the camerawork, plus a lot of crowd-pleasers.

But of the three, I personally preferred Giraldo's segment. Kicca's seemed a bit weird, I'm just not a fan of those straight-legged boleo things, they just look a bit funny to me.

But as I said before I think the best option would be to invite dancers from a tango show, such as tango por dos who regularly perform in London, to do the show.
Yes, that'd be fantastic. Oh well, maybe next year...

12-19-2007, 10:44 AM

What did you think of Matt and Flavia's AT from the same show?

Ah, this one:

Ds2YVLNl_UA

Well, I am glad they used tango music. And, obviously, Flavia's performance is much better, but her tango is almost equally lacking - I think she pulled through for an improved performance over the other professionals because she drew upon her knowledge as a dancer of other styles, which was a smart way to 'cover' her way through, though not necessarily correct in the AT department. So, I guess I would say, I do not believe her fundamental AT is that much better than the other pros, but she made maximum use of her knowledge of other dances and this made the performance better. Quite honestly, I would have expected this quality of dancing from the other pros, but a more authentic AT performance from her, as she seems to have won some awards specifically for her AT, which (apologies - no wishes to offend) puzzles me. We talked about her dancing in another video thread that linked her professional exhibition with Vincent, and several of us were of the opinion that Flavia's tango in that video also was lacking because she appeared to apply Latin dancesport technique to her AT, rather than AT technique. The analogy of a Latin dancesport competitor imitating a standard routine was used, and I thought that was very fitting. Yes they are a talented dancer, and yes they successfully make it through the choreography, but the overall look and feel of the dance is wrong, right down to the footwork.

12-19-2007, 11:00 AM

In the first ever (?) tango demo on Strictly Come Dancing there were three couples. First Flavia and Vincent, and then two others. The man in the second couple and the woman in the third are well-known Argentine Tango teachers in London. How do you think they did compared to F&V?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0DVZASBkM

Let's not forget that it's a show and even though there are some good social dancers in London it's not what the audience want to see. And being a good teacher doesn't mean you're able to perform on telly with no nerves or mistakes. But as I said before I think the best option would be to invite dancers from a tango show, such as tango por dos who regularly perform in London, to do the show. That way we'd get trained Argentine tango dancers who are well used to performing, even if the style of tango still wouldn't necessarily be to everyone's taste.

Wow. Flavia's dancing is not half as stiff in this video as it is in the ones from this year. I wonder what's going on there?

I remember seeing this video last year and I was not aware that the other dancers were professional AT instructors from the London area. That's interesting to know. At least it shows that an effort is being made to bring in AT professionals.

I think you have a good idea about inviting dancers from a professional tango show. Yes, I know, there will be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth by those who believe fantasia is the great destroyer of authentic tango but we're used to that. :rolleyes:

bastet

12-19-2007, 11:54 AM

In the first ever (?) tango demo on Strictly Come Dancing there were three couples. First Flavia and Vincent, and then two others. The man in the second couple and the woman in the third are well-known Argentine Tango teachers in London. How do you think they did compared to F&V?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys0DVZASBkM

Let's not forget that it's a show and even though there are some good social dancers in London it's not what the audience want to see. And being a good teacher doesn't mean you're able to perform on telly with no nerves or mistakes. But as I said before I think the best option would be to invite dancers from a tango show, such as tango por dos who regularly perform in London, to do the show. That way we'd get trained Argentine tango dancers who are well used to performing, even if the style of tango still wouldn't necessarily be to everyone's taste.

Vincent and Flavia were clearly showcased in that though. The others were kind of hangers-on props. The lady in green looked nervous, but I saw what looked like a nice back volcada right as the cameras were moving off them, too bad...the other couple (in black) had some ok moments, didn't like her body control in the linear boleos though...

Angel HI

12-20-2007, 12:57 AM

Re Me's post http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=505162&postcount=42, this AT is better than the others. Yes, it lacks some fundamental AT elements, and is, without a doubt, not even Fantasia, but what the Argentines call American Tango. Technique and connection between the partners and the couple with the music, was absent. However, it was good choreography, and presented well overall. I believe that if it were not titled AT, we would be more tolerant of it as AT.

Having said all of that, I am still not a big Flav fan.

Peaches

12-20-2007, 12:52 PM

Still very curious about this AT World Champion bit...

Angel HI

12-20-2007, 12:55 PM

Agreed.

Dave Bailey

12-20-2007, 06:37 PM

Still very curious about this AT World Champion bit...
I'm not sure either - and I'd also like to know

A quick Google came up with these results (http://dancesportinfo.net/displayCouple.aspx?coupleId=3019) - they won a couple of competitions in 2004, and came placed in a few others in 2005, so they've done pretty well in Ballroom comps.

But I can't find anything about "World Argentine Tango Show Champions" competition - then again, I know nothing about what AT comps there are... :confused:

To be clear, obviously V&F clearly aren't The Best AT Dancers In The World - hell, they're not the best in London, for that matter. But they're promoting AT, so I'm happy.

bastet

12-20-2007, 09:29 PM

I'm not sure either - and I'd also like to know

A quick Google came up with these results (http://dancesportinfo.net/displayCouple.aspx?coupleId=3019) - they won a couple of competitions in 2004, and came placed in a few others in 2005, so they've done pretty well in Ballroom comps.

But I can't find anything about "World Argentine Tango Show Champions" competition - then again, I know nothing about what AT comps there are... :confused:

To be clear, obviously V&F clearly aren't The Best AT Dancers In The World - hell, they're not the best in London, for that matter. But they're promoting AT, so I'm happy.

i think Twirly mentioned the British one they did...apparently last year at Negrachas....

However, the only one I know of that is a stricly AT competition is the Mundial De Tango in Argentina, held in the spring, I think...you will find finals and semifinals for that all over youtube...

12-20-2007, 10:34 PM

It looks like WDC has a "show dance" championship. Is it possible they won this with an AT routine? It would explain the title "world" and "show dance."

It's just that I've looked around and I can't find an AT comp with that title, either.

chachachacat

12-20-2007, 11:01 PM

About the Argentine Tango being in American and International show dance routines these days...

I believe that Victor Veyrasset, multi-time National Pro Standard Champion, was the first Standard dancer to incorporate Argentine Tango into his International showdances in the early 90's. (Of course, I could be wrong, it may have happened before my time.)
Victor worked with Michael Walker of the American AT couple from LA, Luren Belluci and Michael Walker to learn AT, because IT MAKES A BETTER SHOW than plain old Standard Tango!. Luren was a former ballerina, and had all the grace in the world, was incredibly flexible, and a fiery sexiness, as well. Michael was a marvelous smoooooth dancer and very intense, and together, they were wonderful. I believe Victor was taking from someone from Argentina as well, as were Michael & Luren. They studied with many top pros from Argentina, Danel and Maria being the only names I remember, as they brought them here frequently to teach. They were truly breathtaking to watch them glide and play, and kick like they meant it. The passion is so strong, you feel it.

(BTW< mods, this isn't gossip. My husband and I were there, also studying with Micheal and Luren, and Danel and Maria and any other Argentine Tango master who came to town.
I had Claudio and Veronica dance at my Heart Benefit Dance.)

Ampster

12-21-2007, 03:34 AM

Still very curious about this AT World Champion bit...

Its known as : Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango: Buenos Aires, Argentina (World Tango Dance Championship)

This is a relatively new thing in Buenos Aires. I think it started in 2004 (?).

It is a competition participated in from couples around the world (Japan, Korea, Chile, Spain, etc.)

There are two categories: Stage (Fantasia) ,Salon (Ballroom)

Stage Category

Each couple perform one at a time on stage. This category has your typical Fantasia style (Show Tango) stuff. Lifts, BIG Boleos, Volcadas, Giros, Fast Molinetes, sensual passion, etc. All of those things we see in AT performances. The musical arrangements they dance to are orchestrated for show, e.g. selections from: Forever Tango.

There are several preliminary, semi-final elimination rounds. At the finals, after all the couples are done, judging begins and the top 1st, 2nd, 3rd are chosen/awarded

Salon Category

This competition is translated by the organizers as "Ballroom." Make no mistake, this is NOT Ballroom, American, International, Dancesport Tango. They did however use ballroom norms to do the judging. Competition is done in a Ballroom, i.e. Salon setting.

What they dance here is how we dance in milongas! They dance Salon, Milonguero, Orillero, Urquiza, etc. styles. All couples dance at the same time and in the line of dance. They even have numbers on their backs. They dance like they are IN a milonga. It is social AT dancing. The music used here is traditional Tango music in their original arrangements.

There are several preliminary, semi-final elimination rounds. At the finals, after all the dancing is done, judging begins and the top 1st, 2nd, 3rd are chosen/awarded